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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Freedom Engine - THIS MUST BE WRONG!

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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 00:43 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 00:45
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Actually all I meant was that t2 users seemed to think t1 would continue to be developed while t2 was ignored. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I was just disappointed that people can't see what a leap this will be for AppGameKit t1 and 2.

Hopefully as FE adds more to the command set and brings more users in (increasing what TGC can afford to add to the development budget) we will all benefit from this forward thinking product.

I haven't had much time to test FE yet but I simply love the idea of being able to access my code (and compile and run it!) from anywhere using any machine!


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Hodgey
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 01:00
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Quote: "Actually all I meant was that t2 users seemed to think t1 would continue to be developed while t2 was ignored. "

I think I subconsciously missed that perspective. I concluded that AppGameKit was written in C++ so if anything, T1 would fall behind but you wouldn't let that happen in a million years.

Quote: "I simply love the idea of being able to access my code (and compile and run it!) from anywhere using any machine!"

Will FE support T2 code as well? I'd love to have the same, easy access for both Tiers.

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3d point in space
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 02:41
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bjadams about spriter, The market for apps is big I think that other editors will pop up on the web that are less buggy. If every one used it then there would be more programmers making it less buggy.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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3d point in space
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 03:17
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I heard autodesk was making a sprite tool as well. I think there products are over priced, but they make really good editors. It might even be better then spriter. I heard that they are in the stages of developing a sprite tool for ios development using xml.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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Rampage
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 04:47
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I think it's all a bit silly to be honest. Adding cloud support to AppGameKit seems like a much better option as opposed to rolling out a counter-part software onto the market which is essentially just an online version.

On the website I'm seeing free everywhere. Do those of us that have payed for AppGameKit (me being a preorderer and a lot of other people), gain anything from this?
Seems like a loss to me if it's indeed free.

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erebusman
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 05:34
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Quote: "Thanks for the comments My personal goal is to get V108 out the door supporting all platforms by Christmas, but I also realise you have waited a long time and so I am inclined to release some kind of AppGameKit V108 'Windows/iOS' BETA once the IDF dust settles so you can check out the new commands that the internal team have been enjoying for a while. Unfortunately you will have to take the 3D commands as well, it's an all or nothing deal No charge!"


I'm sure I can not begin to appreciate how difficult it is to try and write, maintain, update, and bugfix so many engines as TGC has but this time line of (december) is fairly disappointing to me personally.

I had hoped to possibly have a 3D app almost completed if not out the door by then.

I had also been hoping AGK's 1 year anniversary might have brought the 3D support; but as we know that has come and gone.

It is a nice consolation that you expect it to be free.

I guess the one question I can ask is: when TGC considers putting out nice new shiny engines what level of consideration and prioritization is given to existing engines?

I mean for instance you guys are also talking about DBPro Elite; which honestly I don't even understand this product at all? AppGameKit does Windows ; what is the need for DBPro Elite?

There seems to be a high level of distraction and lack of focus in the pipeline from this customers perspective.

I do appreciate and utilize the tools I've been provided so far; so don't get me wrong this is not a roast. I'm just sharing my thoughts and concerns in what I hope will be a conversation.
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greenlig
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 06:17
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I, for one, and very excited about this.

I program between my laptop and desktop, and am currently sharing things via DropBox. It's annoying having to keep things updated on both ends, and having to work in slightly different ways for each system. FE sound JUST like what I want. One place to go to develop the game, anytime.

HTML5 will also be a massive boon, as getting games out there and visible is easiest in Flash at the moment, with Unity Webplayer a close second. Having AppGameKit doing the same thing will only work out better for everyone.

I am looking forward to this!

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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 06:21
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Quote: "I program between my laptop and desktop, and am currently sharing things via DropBox. It's annoying having to keep things updated on both ends, and having to work in slightly different ways for each system. FE sound JUST like what I want. One place to go to develop the game, anytime."


Ditto! I can't wait to work on my code through Chrome on my tablet!

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MrValentine
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 08:53 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 08:58
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@erebusman

Lee Said
Quote: "Unfortunately you will have to take the 3D commands as well, it's an all or nothing deal No charge!"


Which made me very happy so much that I welcome Freedom Engine, and I think again it has all gotten mixed up, a FREE BETA as I see it and then possibly a subscription thereafter if not a subscription to break the 20? MB file limit... it could have in my opinion have been 5mb 20 is very generous... I can fit a fair few objects in there... but should I ever find it handy I shall be more than happy to lash out again!

It is a very wise move to give 3D AppGameKit for free as I suppose the alternative was a free 250MB for existing owners of AppGameKit, personally I like the decision that was made, but one thing puzzles me, you mentioned a Native version of FE for people wanting to OWN the product... does this mean AppGameKit will be renamed FE?

Also I must report an outrage! you broke the TLA convention >.< can you TLA it to FDE? [FreeDom Engine >.<]

And again @erebusman

AGK and DBP are two worlds apart... long story short that is... basically DBPro is highly advanced in various resource and technology handling, very integrated and uses DirectX... AppGameKit is built on an OpenGL engine and is not compatible with the same features of DBPro... although there are people who say OpenGL can perform the same features, but you must remember Mobile devices have not got 2+GB of RAM and 1-2 GB graphics cards [least not yet] so keeping AppGameKit lightweight on capacity of features is neccessary at this stage in time...

Personally I prefer DirectX, it is run by a sole developer unlike OpenGL which flaunts around like a little kid saying 'Please sir, can I have some more' or whatever that darned kid was saying lol

Hope that makes sense and is somewhat accurate if not please correct me someone

EDIT

Forgot to say and probably should not need to, but OpenGL is not only cross platform but Vendor specific at times... GPU manufacturers have a big say in its future featureset...

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The Daddy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 10:05
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Thanks Lee. That was refreshing to have a speedy response from one of the developers.

It also puts a lot of people at ease, but probably worries just as many others.

I am interested to know about the expected (but not yet Confirmed) pricing structure. From what i have read (quickly) it is free to use with X amount of storage. For a paid subscription you get X+Y storage and can have bigger source code files.

As AppGameKit purchasers (of a great product in beta stages) are we offered any special deals? Will the functionality of the product but staggered based on subscription payment ie. Free = No 3d, Mid = 3d with limited length code etc or is it purely based on storage ?

What are the TGC thoughts?

Constantly seeking!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 12:32
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As I've said many times in the forums, people demand new features and then complain about lack of consolidation on the existing code-base.

A substantial amount of space is taken up here with people moaning about the difficulties of installing the development systems, particularly for Android. A cloud service which would do a server-side compilation and send back an APK would be massively attractive, particularly if it could shove the file straight to Dropbox.

As far a templates go - it might be a good idea to enrol some people for example who have Bada or Playbook and help them maintain the relevant templates. They could be paid in freebies, or just fame!

HTML5 is good, but nowhere near as good as a native app. There are real problems with audio and video file compatibility across platforms, which is why HTML5 allows for several alternative files to be specified. This needs to be taken into account for a one-stop solution. There is also the issue of how, exactly, you can earn money from an HTML5 app, apart from advertising.

It would be nice if by Christmas everything could be unified with the new release, including templates and the other tedious stuff that needs to be kept under control.

Good luck with TFE. I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of feedback!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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bjadams
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 13:55
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I am not worried at all.

They can price FE whatever they like, it doesn't matter if I bought AppGameKit for $x. When I bought AppGameKit it was for a one time fee, and this cloud compiler was never mentioned, so you can't expect TGC to give you access to FE if you bought AppGameKit 1 year ago!!!!
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bjadams
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 14:03
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JimHawkins, you are right FE would be a perfect fit for T1 users who could not manage to set up the dev tools. However there will be complaints here, that 250mb is too little.

The T2 templates problem could be easily fixed in less than half a day work! I guess that the problem here was that TGC got a bit lazy! But when enough people complained, they woke up and supplied a working Android template in no time at all!
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3d point in space
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 14:45 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 14:47
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I think 250 mb might be to the free user they probably have a paid version as well with unlimited space. I and many programmers here don't know how to program in basic, as well as they do in c++. It might be hard to put a c++ on the cloud. If they just had c++ with out all the plugins a cloud version of c++ could be made, but that would not be c++. It would basically be a basic version of c++.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:15
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Quote: "The T2 templates problem could be easily fixed in less than half a day work! I guess that the problem here was that TGC got a bit lazy! But when enough people complained, they woke up and supplied a working Android template in no time at all!"

Perhaps while we all sit around being lazy some members of the community who like to help and know their stuff would like to help by creating some templates for the benefit of those who aren't quite so experienced?

One of the things TGC have benefited from and very much appreciated in the past is the willingness of the community to help with little jobs like making a few templates...

I agree 250Mb doesn't sound like much but you will also be able to download your project source and media and potentially use a none cloud based IDE to compile your projects. FE could be a great way to work on a few main projects at a time while keeping a copy of all of your source elsewhere as well.

I'm sure that if 250Mb is not enough I will personally be one of the first to find out as would like to use FE for all of my TGC projects.


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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:24
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Quote: "I agree 250Mb doesn't sound like much but you will also be able to download your project source and media and potentially use a none cloud based IDE to compile your projects. FE could be a great way to work on a few main projects at a time while keeping a copy of all of your source elsewhere as well."

I subscribe and agree 100% what the baxslash have written.
To have a tool that I can work with only with a browser (so without installing AppGameKit on the casual PCs I work with), work on-line and then making my local copy, would be wonderful.
For didactical purpose (schools, desing academies, programming courses), it would be excellent.
I have got a questions: if I want to edit and compile locally my project, what tools would I have to use? According to what I read in this forum, I think AppGameKit, maybe in the next 1.08 incarnation, of course. Can the TGC guys confirm?
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DVader
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:26
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3Dpointinspace, it is 10MB for free. Which in all honesty is pretty useless really. Unless you are doing very simple apps 10MB will run out in next to no time. If it was 250MB I think a lot of people would never need to pay a subscription! Which I will add, is what TGC wanted from AppGameKit from the start, until it received massive complaints..

Just another thought. I do not see why people are so excited by being able to program from multiple machines. It's quite possible to do this now anyway if you really want, dropbox and google cloud can both be used for this easily. If I want to code, the last thing I would want to do is use my netbook! Using a tablet or other such device would be even worse! Why anyone would want to program away from their own machine is beyond me! Oh apart from those of you doing it from work, naughty people!

Also, my last points. All these new features mentioned are great, but I would prefer the ones we have to be fully functional personally. I don't give a monkeys about 3D until they are. 3D will not improve the games you make just by being 3D. If the virtual keyboard sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, 3D will not improve it. I wish people would stop shouting for 3D when AppGameKit is not even running properly with 2D.

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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:28
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I can't confirm for definite but there has been some discussion of an FE downloadable IDE which would emulate the site and mean you could continue development if you were offline. This would eventually replace the AppGameKit IDE I imagine.

I'm guessing it might be possible to sync to the site if such an IDE were created. How would that sound?


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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:41
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Quote: "I'm guessing it might be possible to sync to the site if such an IDE were created. How would that sound?"

The sync is a MUST. I (and I think everyone here having bought a copy of AGK) would prefer to have the FE GUI integrated into AppGameKit itself in order not to have twice the software to maintain.
The question: the first-time user that has not bought AppGameKit, may download the IDE for free? It is an Amletic question...to be or not to be...
If not, maybe an obstable to FE spreading...if yes, people who bought AppGameKit, would want the money back
What do you think, as a (very lazy) TGC employee?
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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 16:44
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I would guess that the downloadable would have to be for paying members yes, otherwise what is to stop a free user from just using the earth based IDE instead?

...and I never said I was VERY lazy. That's just unfair


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MarcoBruti
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 18:10
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good, so it could be included as an AppGameKit add-on on the next or future release. Yes, you are not very lazy, only a
bit as bjadams stated
Jokes apart, I am particularly happy about that announcement because it shows that T1 is the future of the AGK/FE development, as I wrote more than once. So the language should be powered a little.
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Meows
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 18:14
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OK so why can't people that have purchased products from TheGameCreators get signed up for Freedom before the public?

Sept 12 is a lifetime away!
Meows

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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 18:52
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It's hard to walk a tightrope where on one side people want a perfect working system and on the other people want new features. FE is coming and it'll be available when it's ready.

I can only advise patience...


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kamac
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 19:09 Edited at: 4th Sep 2012 19:09
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Well anyway, I wonder how did Lee manage to find any time to write a new compiler
Magician.

About FE itself, it's looking incredible. If we can write code on mobiles and tablets, then it's bonus points to you!

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The Daddy
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 22:17
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I think FE is a wonderful model both business and as a development tool.

One place for your code wherever you are.
This gives the possibility in the future to sit on your iPad and code away......

Maintenance and Upgrades 'Managed' for you.
No messy complicated "templates" that are error prone....

Will it have the functionality to develop your app in cloud from let's say a PC and then click deploy to IOS or Android or "Metro" or intel app up and hey presto...there is your packages app ready for submission?

I also assume that users will pay for each deployment option....ie gold for all platforms , silver restricts a few, bronze a few less and free....well you can develop for ZX81?

Just would like to know the plans even if they are not finite....like a state engine!

Constantly seeking!
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bjadams
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Posted: 4th Sep 2012 23:07
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It's time to make a board for FE and discuss these issues there... you lazy people!!!!
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Dar13
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 02:49
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Quote: "Well anyway, I wonder how did Lee manage to find any time to write a new compiler"

It's still the AppGameKit compiler, just on the cloud.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 04:15
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I have a few questions. With Tier 2, we're able to put in support for things like OpenFeint and GameCentre. I suppose that we'll have to keep using AppGameKit for those kinds of things, or will there be a Tier 2 option for FE?

Also, if I pay for the 250MB storage option, will I have to pay every time I want to build, say, an IPA file for my game? I would imagine there would be a tremendous strain on the server with the thousands of 'free' users building their packages across all the devices, that you'd have to charge to keep the queue free.

Thanks


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IronGiant
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Posted: 5th Sep 2012 23:06
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Ok, I have to say I get why haliop is pissed. I paid the full price for AppGameKit back in December I believe, and I did this in the hopes it would fuel further development. And it has to a degree. So TGC going out and making a New development system doesnt bother me as long as I get Facebook integration in AGK. I'm not big on 3D, though I can use it in some of my projects, but the Facebook Interface addition for me is top priority. And I also think the COG Icon on the website, should be redone. Looks too much like Purebasic's Logo.( Another great language I use alot!.) So I'm pretty happy with AppGameKit so far, and I'm still happy I paid the full price. Just as I am when I bought all my other languages like Purebasic and so on.

So here's a toast to the future of AppGameKit and Freedom, may it be so bright we have to wear shades!.

It's Bird! , It's Plane!, No its a rocket powered Squirrel holding some acorns and a smile!
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kamac
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Posted: 6th Sep 2012 17:34
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Quote: "It's still the AppGameKit compiler, just on the cloud."


Then it had to be rewritten into HTML5 / whatever. Still a lot of work.

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