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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Is DBPro still in development?

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ale870
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Posted: 5th May 2014 01:02
Hello,

I cannot find any update in DBPro.
So, since we have AppGameKit, FPS Reloaded, etc... I wish to know if Dark basic pro is still in development.

Thank you

--Alessandro
MrValentine
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Posted: 5th May 2014 01:49
Quote: "I cannot find any update in DBPro."


Elaborate



SamKM
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Posted: 5th May 2014 02:12 Edited at: 7th May 2014 03:11
Haha, you've touched on a sensitive issue there
I think it's true to say - yes, DBPro is still in development! There hasn't been an official update in ages, but DBPro is being used to develop FPSC Reloaded, which means that DBPro is being developed at the same time. Lee has said that at some point in the future, the improvements to DBPro will be available either as a free or paid update for us all. Of course, nobody knows when this might happen - hopefully fairly soon, but I have a feeling it might not be for a while yet :/

The code never bothered me anyway...
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 5th May 2014 13:18
I just need limb coordinates to work.
MrValentine
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Posted: 5th May 2014 14:28
Barry, What do you mean? are you using LIMB POSITION X-Y-Z?

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 5th May 2014 14:33 Edited at: 5th May 2014 14:48
I mean...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=210838&b=1

I had an x model with limb pivots, but the pivots didn't work in DBPro. I need them a lot for my current project, and future projects. If Polytrans can find the pivots, and 3DSMax can then DBPro should be able to find the pivots.
Chris Tate
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Posted: 5th May 2014 19:50 Edited at: 5th May 2014 19:54
Barry. Could you post your model file in ASCII text format please. I would like to see if there are any discrepancies in the file.

You and I are in the same boat, as are all users of the limb expressions; but you should be able to obtain a global position and rotation for your object limbs using the LIMB POSITION and LIMB DIRECTION functions over the LIMB OFFSET and LIMB ANGLE expressions respectively.

I have had trouble in my SDK's world editor project where I could not figure out why my 3D pipe extension tool would not extend pipes at the angles of the joint limbs; turns out all of the limb angles are identical when loaded from my. X file. Since the limb direction is subject to the angle of the object, in some cases subtracting the object angle from your limb angle can work.

I had to declare my pipe limb angles in code, ideally the .X format would have successfully passed on the angles of the limbs in the editor. But I could not rely on limb direction expressions for this type of precision modelling.



Just work around the limitations, adjust your design where necessary. Such limitations become everyday knowledge the more your persist with DBP games development. Do not rely heavily on updates. Sometimes a workaround proves better than the original idea; hopefully in this instance a better idea will come into light.

Try importing into an editor with a more compatible .X exportation script; like Blender. (Although with Blender you will still need to rely on limb directions over angles)

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 5th May 2014 20:57 Edited at: 5th May 2014 20:58
Here is an object with limbs that's pivots work in other programs, but not in DBPro...

I have worked around this object, but my next object needs to work properly.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th May 2014 23:39
Could you upload a text format X file of your object? I can read it then.

I notice your X file is using absolute addresses for textures. That isn't very helpful when you move your object around into different folders.



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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 00:32 Edited at: 6th May 2014 00:33
Well here is the Ascii version. I use absolute addresses because I re-texture the model in my program. That texture is never used.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th May 2014 13:44
Quote: "Well here is the Ascii version."


Thanks.

The ASCII version displays fine, but the original doesn't display at all.

The ASCII file doesn't contain any limb rotation information so DBPro has no information to use and each limb will have the same, i.e. default, rotation I guess. The object seems to consist of 41 separate meshes. I've no idea what the binary version is like since I can't read it.

Quote: "I use absolute addresses because I re-texture the model in my program. That texture is never used."


Fine. Thought I'd mention it just in case.



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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 13:51 Edited at: 6th May 2014 14:36
Quote: "The ASCII file doesn't contain any limb rotation information so DBPro has no information to use and each limb will have the same, i.e. default, rotation I guess."


I only need the limb locations. When I load the model into Polytrans it puts a pivot in the middle of each limb. If Polytrans can find the middle of each limb then that is all I need DBPro to do. The middle of each limb is what I am trying to find in DBPro. Polytrans works with the Ascii, and Binary versions. 3DS max also finds the middle of each limb, and puts a Pivot there. But when I load the Model into DBPro it says... Limb Position x = 0 Limb Position Y = 0. There is no way that Polytrans, or 3DS Max could put a pivot at those locations. So how do Polytrans, and 3DS Max find the middle of each limb?

I get this...



Now you see the word "UP" on the button, it is next to a hole on the right. Those holes have to be loaded with objects that rotate when the wheel turns. So I want to use limbs for positioning objects in those holes. Then rotate the wheel, and use limb positions to rotate the objects.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th May 2014 15:13
The same applies to the limb positions - there is no information about that either in your X file. DBPro can't invent information that isn't there. The meshes are all in absolute coordinates. All the meshes in your X file will have the default position at (0,0,0).

Quote: "When I load the model into Polytrans it puts a pivot in the middle of each limb. If Polytrans can find the middle of each limb then that is all I need DBPro to do. The middle of each limb is what I am trying to find in DBPro."


Then code it yourself in DBPro using the absolute coordinates of each limb mesh via the vertexdata commands - or use a different exporting option from your modelling package so it exports the position and rotation information instead of absolute coordinates. I'm not familiar with that package so I can't help you there.

You seem to be asking questions about how Polytrans works - do they have a forum (or Help file) where the details are explained?



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Chris Tate
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Posted: 6th May 2014 15:57
Hi All, I see Green Gandalf has helped you already.

After a quick glance at your ASCII text formatted X file, as expected the limbs have no positions saved by your editor. All you have inside of your .X file are a number of definitions and vertex specifications for each mesh. No matrix transform.

Why is DBPRO not reading the limb locations like 3DS Max and Polytrans? Maybe because the editors are not reading the limb locations whatsoever. There are no matrix transform coordinates in the file. It would not surprise me if 3DS Max and Polytrans are calculating limb positions based on the average of vertex locations; something that DBP will not do for you automatically.

You can work out your own limb locations by averaging your vertex locations, or you can consider using a better .X file exporter. You need your limb positions to do anything useful with 3D assets in DBP.

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 16:18 Edited at: 6th May 2014 16:20
Quote: "It would not surprise me if 3DS Max and Polytrans are calculating limb positions based on the average of vertex locations; something that DBP will not do for you automatically. "


Well this is what needs adding to DBPro then. When it loads your models it could work out the average limb location based on the vertex locations. This thread is about development, and that is development. This needs doing because the modelling packages are doing it rather than saving the locations.
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 16:37 Edited at: 6th May 2014 16:52
Try this one. It is exported from 3DS Max...

EDIT... It seems to have coordinates, but now half of my limbs have vanished.
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 17:19 Edited at: 6th May 2014 17:20
Max seems to be messing with the textures. I add them in DBPro, but they aren't appearing...

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th May 2014 18:28
Quote: "I add them in DBPro, but they aren't appearing..."


For some reason you seem to have twice as many limbs as before. The following code seems to work. "Spellwheel R1.x" is your first text X file, "...R2.x" is your second.





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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 6th May 2014 19:44
Well, what I did was export from 3DS Max with bones. So bones seem to relate to limbs, but you must get twice as many. That's better than nothing I suppose.

Thanks!
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th May 2014 20:00 Edited at: 6th May 2014 20:27
Quote: "So bones seem to relate to limbs, but you must get twice as many."


I suspect it's because the frame structure adds a "dummy" limb for each separate mesh - or something like that. Normally, there would be one root frame with limbs nested within that defined as weighted subsets of the main mesh.

The file also seems to have lots of redundant information - not sure at the moment whether that can be deleted.

Looks like progress all the same.

Edit Yes, it looks like a dummy limb is created for each actual limb in your X file. You can texture your latest X file using this:



i.e. limbs 0, 2, 4, etc, are the dummy limbs associated with each sub mesh and don't need to be textured (since there's nothing to texture). However DBPro still thinks they are limbs.

Edit2 If you don't need the animation data (it doesn't seem to do anything anyway ) you can simply delete it and get a much smaller file - see attached.



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Brendy boy
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Posted: 7th May 2014 02:56
Quote: "Well this is what needs adding to DBPro then. When it loads your models it could work out the average limb location based on the vertex locations. This thread is about development, and that is development. This needs doing because the modelling packages are doing it rather than saving the locations. "

no, you need to calculate that by yourself. Pivot isn't always in the middle of the object.

For example: door object needs it's pivot point on the left or the right edge so it can be rotated around that point like a real door.
If the pivot point is in the middle the door would spin around.

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 11:22 Edited at: 7th May 2014 12:05
Quote: "no, you need to calculate that by yourself. Pivot isn't always in the middle of the object."


I think that default modelling packages should be accounted for by DBPro. If you make a model in a package you want the model replicated in DBPro. That's just your basic setup.

Get Limb Centre x()
Get Limb Centre y()

Having to fix this requires buying multiple modelling packages for 1 job. Modellers are artists, they should not be required to program their default setup. And I still haven't completely fixed the problem yet even with 5 modelling packages all exporting between them. Centre X works with all of them, so it fixes the problem for most modelling packages. I didn't buy DBPro to start working with vertices. I bought it to simplify all of that. Anyway, it doesn't matter where the pivot is, I don't have a pivot at all. I have 0 X 0 Y all the time. 3DS Max has half fixed the problem, but now limb 1 has vanished.

Anyway there's another way to pivot a door. My door is the silver plate with the witches on it. I pivot it with a hidden limb, and use the centre of the object, which is really the centre of two combined objects.
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 15:15
I can't get it to work. I have limb positions, but 3DS max does something odd to the texture. Here's some code, and the file is attached. This is the model that I need to work properly...

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 15:16 Edited at: 7th May 2014 15:17
This is what the texture looks like when it is messed up...

chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 15:21
Hi there.

When we export an object from any 3D program, the center of the object, is not the center of the 3D space. Even exporting just a box, if we don't position the box in coordinates 0,0,0 then it will rotate with a wrong pivot.

Here's an example of a box with an offset center made in Dbpro.



To make Barry Pythagoras example, we could make it all in Dbpro...something like this:



We have to texture every limb, the same that we do in any 3D program.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 16:05
Yay I've fixed it!

What a complex process!!!

Start in Anim8or.
Mirror model in the X (because Direct X flips model)
Export as 3DS
Import into Polytrans
Export again as 3DS (Because Max doesn't load Anim8or 3DS)
Import into Max
Centre pivots to objects
Export as 3DS
Import into Polytrans
Export as X

Now why cant we have Get Limb Centre x() instead of all that?
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 7th May 2014 16:42
Wouldn't it be far simpler to write a short piece of DBPro code for this specific task?



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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 16:55 Edited at: 7th May 2014 16:59
Quote: "Wouldn't it be far simpler to write a short piece of DBPro code for this specific task?"


I wouldn't know how to write it. The wheel rotates taking the objects around with it. The limb number represents an item number. The item number relates to the item list above the item. I don't know any vertex commands. Lining up the objects would be difficult. Rotating the objects with the wheel would be difficult. I think I am using the simplest way. Anyway limb centres are useful for lots of things. A limb centre command has many uses.

My easy way was to just select faces in Anim8or. Detach faces. they become limbs automatically, so no lining up involved. You don't need to know the coordinates.

But then all of this exporting slowed me down.
Chris Tate
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Posted: 7th May 2014 17:47 Edited at: 7th May 2014 17:52
Quote: "Now why cant we have Get Limb Centre x() instead of all that"
?

It would be a handy function, only thing is it would not be needed if ones 3D editor exports ones limb positions. With such a pricey piece of software I find it difficult to understand how anyone is using 3DSMax to make entities for their Direct X games without any limb positions. You should try exporting the animation frames; surely with an animated X file the keyframes would indicate where the origins should be.

Are there not any alternative Direct X exporters for it? May as well use Blender.

Care to post a screenshot of the export dialog? I want to see what a direct X exporter with no limb position features looks like.

Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 18:34 Edited at: 7th May 2014 18:39
I posted the model with no limb coordinates up above...
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=210968&b=1&msg=2519309#m2519309

Change the end of the model from x to txt to read it. But 3DS Max does export coordinates, but for some reason messes up my texture. It seems to reverse some U or V coordinates. Even without coordinates though you can still get the centre of a limb by finding the centre of the vertices in the limb. That's what I want DBPro to do.
Chris Tate
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Posted: 7th May 2014 19:07 Edited at: 7th May 2014 19:09
I know. I meant the screenshot of the export program; the export window in your version of 3DS Max. Could you show it to me or tell me the version.

Well as far as finding the centre of the vertices; all you need to do is use the Get Vertexdata Position X(), Get Vertexdata Position Y(), Get Vertexdata Position Z() functions to produce a median point. I prefer to use Dimitry's vertex functions over the native ones.

But if I were you I would sort out your export procedure; otherwise think what happens when you want the origins to be off centre in future geometry?

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Posted: 7th May 2014 19:15 Edited at: 7th May 2014 19:29
Quote: "I know. I meant the screenshot of the export program; the export window in your version of 3DS Max."


Well Max does export limbs positions.

I have several problems though...

I make my models in Anim8or.

Anim8or does not export 3DS properly.

Max Does not Import Anim8or 3DS models.

Polytrans Imports Anim8or 3DS but does not create the Limb Positions.

Max loads Polytrans 3DS but exports bad textures to X. (Even if I retexture the models in DBPro)

Polytrans Imports Max 3DS with limb positions, and then exports those limb positions.


There are other problems with other programs...

Blender is horrible to use.

Milkshape is horrible to use.

Lithunwrap save X as a single mesh.

DBPro X converter crashes with 3DS.

DBPro DBO converter does not create Limb positions.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 19:33 Edited at: 7th May 2014 19:42
Quote: "Wouldn't it be far simpler to write a short piece of DBPro code for this specific task? "


I'm agree .


Quote: "Blender is horrible to use."

No if you don't give up the first attempt.

Quote: "DBPro DBO converter does not create Limb positions."

It does !!. Not with a wrong object imported from some programs.

We can combert directly with Dbpro an object into a Dbo...we don't need any converter.

Edited . I apologize for hijacking ale870's thread

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 20:24 Edited at: 7th May 2014 20:50
Quote: "No if you don't give up the first attempt."

Just loading my model takes longer than all of the steps that I mentioned. In Blender you start in C directory, and then I just can't find my model directory. It's a nightmare.

Quote: "It does !!. Not with a wrong object imported from some programs."


It doesn't add pivots else DBPro would have a centre limb function. It only copies pivots from other programs.


Quote: "We can combert directly with Dbpro an object into a Dbo...we don't need any converter."


You need to add the pivot points. 3DS Max adds the pivot points from the centre of a limb in one click.



That's nice and easy. Trying to find the centre of limbs manually would take ages. Indie is best speeded up as much as possible.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 20:58
Quote: "
It doesn't add pivots else DBPro would have a centre limb function. It only copies pivots from other programs."


Do not misunderstand me, but reading your comments I guess that you could be my grandson. Believe me, the devil knows more for being old than for devil.

Every object we make ,has a pivot . Every time we make a limb with a mesh, it has a pivot, and we can place the pivot where we need. Have you seen the example I showed you above? . I know that using programs as 3DsMax, we can get easy models, but you can use Dbpro to make the roulette, and every single limb will have a pivot.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:11 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:14
Quote: "Every object we make ,has a pivot . Every time we make a limb with a mesh, it has a pivot, and we can place the pivot where we need. Have you seen the example I showed you above? . I know that using programs as 3DsMax, we can get easy models, but you can use Dbpro to make the roulette, and every single limb will have a pivot."


That's when you are making a model. I am not making a model, I already have a model. I need to find the limbs in the model that is already made. In a ready made model DBPro needs to know where the limbs are, but Max finds them itself.
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:12
Quote: "Have you seen the example I showed you above?"




@Barry Pythagorus

You really should study Chafari's snippet and adjust it for your purposes as necessary.



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Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:15 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:18
In Chafari's post...

make object box i,3,20,1
offset limb i,0,0,8,0

See offset limb. I don't know the limb offset, that's what I am trying to find in the first place. It could take awhile to find my limb offsets, and that's what I'm trying to avoid.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:23
@Green Gandalf Thank you.

@Barry Pyhthagoras.
I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to help you some how. If you need any help, I'll be here. May the force be with you !

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:28 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:31
All I am saying is that I can model the object easily in Anim8or. You make a single hole, and rotate it 360deg. That's then finished.

You take the face of the holes, and detach them. That's the limbs done.

Then you go into make, and centre the pivots. that's the pivots done.

I never needed to know any positions, or do any maths. I have time to do other things in ZBrush. That's Indie. Quick. Then I was slowed down by unexpected Exporting.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:34
Quote: "make object box i,3,20,1
offset limb i,0,0,8,0"


Here we make the box 1, 3 units wide, 20 units height and 1 unith depth. So when we offset its pivot up, we don't change x position neither z position, only y position, and we offset the y position just 8 units to let the pivot inside the object.

A trick to add visible point to limbs, could be positioning little boxes in every limb position x,y,z, but in your case, all pivots are collapsed.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:38 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:41
I still don't understand how you know how far the offset has to be. You would have to keep guessing until you got it right.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:40
Sorry we whera writting at the same time

Quote: "I never needed to know any positions, or do any maths"


Sorry for my misunderstood. I just saw this above
I just need limb coordinates to work.

Sorry again if I disturbed you.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:45
Quote: "I still don't understand how you know how far the offset has to be."


When we make any object in Dbpro, Dbpro will add automatically the pivot in the center.

If we make a box of 3,20,1, and we want to offset its center up, we just have to offset the y ...so we offset limb 1,0,0,object size y/2,0

1 means object number one
0 means limb zero of object one
0 x position
object size y(1)/2 = 10
0 z position

We have to offset just a bit less than the object size y...so we offset limb only 8 units

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Chris Tate
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:50 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:53
Excuse me, Chafari; in reply to the other sub-topic in this hijacked thread.



Oh boy. This is starting to make me feel sorry for you.

Quote: "I make my models in Anim8or."

Why do you use Anim8or? Is it doing you any good at the moment?

Quote: "Anim8or does not export 3DS properly."

Is there much it can do properly?

Quote: "Max Does not Import Anim8or 3DS models."

Now that's got to be Anim8ors fault; 3DSMax should import its own model format.

Quote: "Polytrans Imports Anim8or 3DS but does not create the Limb Positions."

So this is where the limb positions got lost. This editor is doing much good.

Quote: "Max loads Polytrans 3DS but exports bad textures to X. (Even if I retexture the models in DBPro)"

Seems like 3DSMax has found peculiarities in the 3DS file's UV coordinates. Try recalculating the UV coordinates in 3DS Max.

Quote: "Polytrans Imports Max 3DS with limb positions, and then exports those limb positions."

Now that proves that it is Anim8tors fault.

There are other problems with other programs...

Quote: "Blender is horrible to use."

Only in the first month. This problem would not exist if you learned it last month. I've exported at least 50 models today using Blender all with locations. I can export .X files and create them in the same software. How many Blender tutorials have you watched? I bet you've not ever watched half of the Blender tutorials I watch everyday. Give it a try; it's a great investment, you will not regret it.

Quote: "
Milkshape is horrible to use."

I've never used it.

Quote: "Lithunwrap save X as a single mesh."

I've got this editor but have not used it. Thanks for the warning; I will not be exporting with it.

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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:50 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:52
Quote: "We have to offset just a bit less than the object size y...so we offset limb only 8 units"

But 8 units is too small for my model? It's at least 200 units wide.
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:54 Edited at: 7th May 2014 21:55
Quote: "Only in the first month. This discussion would not exist if you learned it last month."

But then I would be confused in other programs which work differently. I tend to only work with programs that work in the same way. I mean that the 3 buttons in Blender, are mixed up compared to UltimateUV so I will get confused when I switch around a lot.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:54
Quote: "But 8 units is too small for my model? It's at least 200 units wide."


I know that all depends of your object size y, so if you have an object that is:

make object box 1,10,200,1 ...and you need to offse the center, you could use something about 95

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Barry Pythagoras
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Posted: 7th May 2014 21:56
But then you are guessing, and the point is for DBPro to find the pivots, and not guess the pivots.
chafari
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Posted: 7th May 2014 22:00
Quote: "Excuse me, Chafari; in reply to the other sub-topic in this hijacked thread.
"


Don't worry Chris Tate...I put that because it was Ale870's thread, and it turns into something completly different.

Sorry again Ale870, but the thread got interesting somehow.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa

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