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Geek Culture / Perhaps just nostalgia talking, but...

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Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 19:20
This is something I just realized over the last couple of days.

I remember sitting in my family's old office, on our old, decrepit computer, running DarkBASIC Classic for the first time on October 17th, 2007. I remember falling in love with the idea of programming my own games and started learning as much about programming as I could. It took me a couple of years to get to a decent stage though, because whenever I encountered issues with the old (and rather terrible!) collision detection commands, I always got discouraged because I couldn't think of a solution.

Then, a few years later (circa Summer of 2010), DBPro was released for free and that solved quite a few problems! I got very motivated and started to develop many projects, mostly consisting of level editors. Sadly, it was this obsession with level editors that led me to turn to such an engine as Unity3D - and as a result, my contributions to this forum have suffered greatly. I now pretty much only post in the Posting Competition, which I'm really not proud of.

So, as the years went by and I tried to learn Unity here and there, I learned quite a bit of C#, tinkered with the now defunct XNA Studio (which I LOVED and I still hate Microsoft for discontinuing it), and tried to make a game that I was happy with.

Problem was, that original feeling, the feeling I got with DarkBASIC, has been missing for almost 5 years now. There was something about programming in that particular language, even if it has some rather bad design overall, that was just... almost magical, if that makes any sense. I think it's because I loved creating something out of almost nothing - just ones and zeroes, and trying to make a small game in whichever way that I could. One of my favorite things to do was to create a bunch of random objects with a few for-next loops and see what kind of maze I could generate. Never really worked in a playable state but was fun nonetheless.

And of course, the major, major downside with Unity is that even though you can technically program things from scratch, the engine itself works far too differently than what I was used too. Even after several years of working with it, I still find myself getting tripped up on how to even get basic text working from level-to-level. Because it's mostly a visual engine, some basic, rudimentary things had to be done in a very roundabout way. Don't even get me started on Unreal Engines Blueprints functionality either, as that makes things way more complicated than it needs to be.

So, what is my point to all of this?

I think that while Unity and Unreal Engine are great, they're missing the whole point of what brought most of here to TGC - the love of programming. The art of creating things through code, and seeing what you can do just with some fancy math and a decent compiler. Sure, DBP and even AppGameKit are somewhat limited, but that's part of the FUN of it all - experimenting, trying out new things, seeing just what you can do, and learning over time.

I'm seriously considering buying AppGameKit v2 when it comes out (or even pledging for the early access version), which will hopefully reignite that old spark in me. The love of programming, the love of coding things from scratch is, after all, what brought me here in the first place.

And, hopefully, buying AppGameKit will help me be more active in this community again. This was my favorite place to visit on the web for years and is still my favorite forum ever. No other company has a forum quite like TGC does. It truly is a great place to visit!

Heh, all that text and it's still not quite as long as Raven's old posts


Meh game development blaugh!
mr Handy
16
Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 20:00
Quote: "I now pretty much only post in the Posting Competition, which I'm really not proud of."

I hope you was posting code snippets and plugins?

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 20:45
I posted some code snippets but never any plugins. Mostly just nonsense posts, really.


Meh game development blaugh!
mr Handy
16
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Joined: 7th Sep 2007
Location: out of TGC
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 21:16
Quote: "Mostly just nonsense posts, really."

I hope you feel ashamed

wattywatts
14
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Joined: 25th May 2009
Location: Michigan
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 21:18
If TGC would just release a new db with integrated shaders (they have some in the vanilla already, bump mapping and stencil shadows and such) I think things could really turn around. That's all that's holding most people back, I mean what if you could set up a regular old light and it automatically cast shadows. When I got into DBP I assumed that's how it worked and was pretty frustrated when I found out otherwise.
It won't happen, but it would be neat. Just my opinion.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 16th Nov 2014 22:06
I, too, remember thinking that just by programming a light that everything in DBP would have shadows. I was pretty sad when I found out it didn't work like that.

Then when I figured out how to actually enable the shadows, my computer wasn't capable of it, and it crashed. It was so slow and horribly painful to run the program!

I think TGC's ultimate goal is to have App Game Kit be the main development tool on their site. There was talk of a "DarkBASIC Elite" a while back but I think they just ended up silently trashing the idea and instead are focusing as much of their time as they can into the development of AppGameKit V2, which is probably a better idea anyway!

If I had the money I'd buy AppGameKit right now, but I'll have to wait until next payday. Or, if someone wants to get me a Christmas present early...

I'll probably download the demo of AppGameKit tonight and play around with it for a while, see what all has changed and what all I can do with it! I wonder how much I've forgotten.


Meh game development blaugh!
swissolo
14
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Joined: 9th Jan 2010
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Posted: 16th Nov 2014 22:33
I've loved AppGameKit, but my biggest problem has been that it's just too slow at Tier 1 mathematics. Java is criticized for being slow, yet often times the same code (functionally) runs something like 10,000 times the speed in java (at least in the case of my Mandelbrot fractal renderer) of AGK. Of course, AppGameKit is an entirely different tool that I still personally prefer, but it's always disappointing to hit a brick wall because of seemingly simple math.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 05:08
Yeah, I've heard the same thing about some things of AppGameKit being slow.

But what engine isn't without its share of problems?

I just miss coding things from scratch, it was so much fun to mess around with DBP and just create some basic stuff! Unity just doesn't appeal to me anymore, it makes some things way more difficult than it needs to, and there's the fundamental problem of it being mostly targeted for RPG/FPS style games. I want to be able to code my own level editor from scratch which can support whatever I need it to for a game engine. I think that's why I want to go back to the "BASIC"s of programming, lol


Meh game development blaugh!
Clonkex
Forum Vice President
13
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 07:11 Edited at: 17th Nov 2014 07:13
I'm working as fast as I can on a game in Unity right now, and I can definitely agree that a lot of things are way more complicated than they should be! And there really is something amazing about DBPro that other languages just don't have. I'm not sure what it is, but it makes me seriously consider it as a contender for which engine I'll use for my next project.

I went with Unity most recently because the separation of scripts actually drastically simplifies the creation of my game due to its design, and also because it's multiplatform, and continually updated, and mostly future-proof. It's going to be extremely fiddly when I get to the Mod Support stage, however...

Quote: "Then when I figured out how to actually enable the shadows, my computer wasn't capable of it, and it crashed. It was so slow and horribly painful to run the program!"


I made so many games where I tried to support shadows, but they never worked properly. They either didn't appear at all or flickered horribly

Dar13
15
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 07:23
Quote: " But what engine isn't without its share of problems? "

When an engine's problem is being slow at math(stuff that's been optimized on every single platform to its fullest for about a decade now), it's a big problem. Especially when it's being compared to the JVM, a piece of software notorious for being slow. Is AppGameKit Tier 1( the BASIC language) interpreted still? Or has it moved to being compiled?

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 08:23
Good points there, Dar13. I think the slow-at-math issues are just an inherent problem from DBC/DBP. I hear developing games with Tier 2 AppGameKit solve a lot of the speed issues, and honestly that's probably what I would use to develop after a while.

@Clonkex:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the specialness of DBP! Honestly, I think it's a mixture of this community/ease of the language itself. Sure, it doesn't support everything it could, but it's somehow more fun than a lot of others!


Meh game development blaugh!
Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 09:44
Quote: "I hear developing games with Tier 2 AppGameKit solve a lot of the speed issues"


It will, yes, because it's native, compiled code and because it's C++, it's the closest thing to Assembly speeds you can get. I mean, strictly speaking Assembly is the closest in speed to Assembly, but who writes anything in Assembly...?

Quote: "I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the specialness of DBP! Honestly, I think it's a mixture of this community/ease of the language itself. Sure, it doesn't support everything it could, but it's somehow more fun than a lot of others!"


+1

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 16:45
I think TheComet wrote something in Assembly not too long ago, but that's because he's TheComet.

I would probably start out with Tier 1 development, re-familiarize myself with the nuances of the language (and get used to the new format of some commands), and then move up to Tier 2/C++ and take better control of what's going on!

I'm seriously wishing I had the money to just pledge already and get the alpha, haha. But I'm going to download the demo of the current version and see what all I can do with it, just to make sure it's something I want to spend $60 on first


Meh game development blaugh!
The Zoq2
14
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Joined: 4th Nov 2009
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 17th Nov 2014 20:48
Quote: " Is AppGameKit Tier 1( the BASIC language) interpreted still? Or has it moved to being compiled?"


I dont't think AppGameKit has ever been "fully interpreted". It's compiled to bytecode which is interpreted by the AppGameKit interpreter program, sort of like how java works

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Dar13
15
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 00:53
Quote: "I dont't think AppGameKit has ever been "fully interpreted". It's compiled to bytecode which is interpreted by the AppGameKit interpreter program, sort of like how java works"

Ah ok. So its bytecode based now? I suppose they would have to in order to get it as multiplatform as they want. Still, seems like they have some performance issues.

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
13
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 09:05
Quote: "I think TheComet wrote something in Assembly not too long ago"


Typical...

Quote: "I'm seriously wishing I had the money to just pledge already and get the alpha, haha."


Yeah, me too!

Quote: "Ah ok. So its bytecode based now?"


AFAIK AppGameKit has always compiled its code to a proprietary bytecode and interpreted the bytecode.

TheComet
16
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Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 10:10
DBP/DBC is definitely a very unique thing. Back in the earlier days of TGC there was a vibe on these forums. We were all using the same software and we all had a common goal: To push that software to it's absolute limits, to show off cool tricks and discover new techniques, and to ultimately just have fun making games.

I think the core of the issue is how divided everything has become, and how TGC is missing the niche in the market. TGC today is offering an overwhelming selection of products in a variety of fields, and the direct result of this is an unorganised, split up community. If we analyse the community we currently have, we see:
* DBC oldtimers wishing nothing more than the "good old times" to return.
* DBPro enthusiasts who are desperately wishing for a new DBP to be released and are slowly realizing this will never happen.
* AppGameKit people who I honestly believe don't actually exist, because I've never seen them on GC.
* Whoever is left of the disaster that was DarkGDK, still producing some of the most atrocious C++ code I've ever seen.
* People who've learned the arts of C++ and are writing good code, want to help other people but find that the only place they can post about C++ is in The Posting Competition.
* FPSC 12 year olds.
* People using Unity/UDK4/Other engines, want to help other people but find that the only place they can post about it is in The Posting Competition.
* Procrastinators posting the equivalent of diarrhoea into The Posting Competition

TGC needs to realize that The Posting Competition has sadly become the most active part of this forum these days and locking that thread is the exact opposite of what they should do - it would mean losing at least half of the community.

TGC needs to see that the interest of the community has shifted and adapt accordingly. TGC needs to give these new technologies homes on these forums, maybe create dedicated boards for C++, engines, etc.

There are countless business opportunities and yet TGC is missing all of them.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
13
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Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 14:25
Quote: "AFAIK AppGameKit has always compiled its code to a proprietary bytecode and interpreted the bytecode."
As far as I know App Game Kit HACICTAPBAITB
</constructive post>

James H
16
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Location: St Helens
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 15:38
TheComet
Tell us your drunk or something, there are so many things wrong with what you just stated it beggars belief.

Quote: "TGC today is offering an overwhelming selection of products in a variety of fields, and the direct result of this is an unorganised, split up community"

Overwhelming??? In a word no, just no. If you have many products then you have many products and there is not much that can be done about it and the fact is there are less than 100 products and in no way shape or form that 100 could be considered overwhelming. What split? Where is your proof? I hope your not expecting us to beleive the nonsense you type following this constitutes analysis or proof. Unorganised? Its very well organised indeed. People are however posting things in the wrong place because they haven`t taken the time to read and understand the forums structure of topics. In essence they rush to post because they want answers quickly, when your learning, rushing is not the way forward, thats how mistakes are made.
Quote: "If we analyse the community"
There is little to no analysis in your post.
Quote: "DBPro enthusiasts who are desperately wishing for a new DBP to be released and are slowly realizing this will never happen"
Until such a time an official statement is made by TGC any realization that an individual comes to is a choice made by them and you cannot make such a statement without communicating with every individual. Your speaking on behalf of people you have not consulted with. The fact is you cannot possibly even vaguely estimate how many people that might be.
Quote: "AGK people who I honestly believe don't actually exist, because I've never seen them on GC"
Whaaat??? So now you alone have decided that GC is the be all and end all of the community of another board. So if I make a post on dbp board but not a single one in GC your saying I don`t exist because YOU say so!!!
Quote: "Whoever is left of the disaster that was DarkGDK"
Who are you to decide this is a disaster?
Quote: "People who've learned the arts of C++ and are writing good code, want to help other people but find that the only place they can post about C++ is in The Posting Competition"
There is a whole other board for programming talk, try using it.
Quote: "FPSC 12 year olds"
You have a problem with minors making posts about what they have created? You are expecting minors to make something YOU see as acceptable? Kids are kids, accept it and move on. Because you don`t like something is no reason to assume a community has been split because of it.
Quote: "People using Unity/UDK4/Other engines, want to help other people but find that the only place they can post about it is in The Posting Competition"
How about the right place to post being on the sites provided by the products owners? What is your problem with seeing The Posting Competition as the only place? Not saying GC or Posting Competition can`t have folk discussing these things but you couldn`t be more wrong if you tried.
Quote: "TGC needs to realize that The Posting Competition has sadly become the most active part of this forum these days and locking that thread is the exact opposite of what they should do - it would mean losing at least half of the communit"
TGC needs to realize nothing, you need to realize they do very very well without your help and that lack of activity on a forum has nothing to do with activity on a particular thread. Your view on community is very skewed indeed. Please feel free to tell us how many are in the community, how many of them post how often and why you think activity correlates with a communities existence. People come people go and people return(or not). Look at my join date, look at how many threads/post I made since I joined then reflect on the fact I consider myself as part of the community yet there is no correlation between them. There are many more in this position and people do not announce they have left the community. If it was not for the fact that folk enjoy the Posting Competition and I am not a MOD I would lock it right now just to prove a point. If and when the thread is locked your saying that suddenly a community will cease to exist, thats rubbish to the very core.
I can only come to the conclusion your drunk or ill or something else, I am finding it hard to believe otherwise
TheComet
16
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Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 16:42
@James H

Drunk? Even if I were drunk I still wouldn't be mixing up my "your" and "you're" like you are.

Quote: "Its very well organised indeed. People are however posting things in the wrong place because they haven`t taken the time to read and understand the forums structure of topics"


Well then it's obviously not well organised, is it?

My proof? My whole post was my opinion. I roam GC, DBPro, DBP Newcomers, DBC, Dark GDK, and I'm pretty sure I have a good feeling for how the community is functioning. If you've paid any attention you'll notice that most of the traffic on this forum is on GC (correct me if I'm wrong in saying this). At least compared to the other boards I'm active on.

The general gist: A lot of users aren't really using TGC products any more, they've moved on to bigger and better things.

If you compare the traffic today to how the traffic was 2 years ago, you'll see a drastic drop. You've been here long enough to see this, I'm sure.

Quote: "Who are you to decide this is a disaster?"


Because it is a disaster! As someone who's been programming in C/C++ for years I am insulted by the code I see and by the help most users have tried to give. It doesn't take a genius to look at the code people produce and notice that the vast majority is very badly structured, full of memory leaks (because C++ is such a language that will blow your leg off if you don't know what you're doing) and just plain wrong.

The DarkGDK boards are basically dead. There are two users, s_i and WickedX, who are using it as a replacement for skype. You call that an active and healthy community?

Quote: "There is a whole other board for programming talk, try using it."


I have tried, and that board is more dead than DarkDGK.

Quote: "You have a problem with minors making posts about what they have created? You are expecting minors to make something YOU see as acceptable? Kids are kids, accept it and move on. Because you don`t like something is no reason to assume a community has been split because of it."


I have no problem with minors making games, in fact I encourage it and think it's a great exercise. I was making a sarcastic jab at the situation of FPSC and you failed to interpret it as such.

Quote: "How about the right place to post being on the sites provided by the products owners? What is your problem with seeing The Posting Competition as the only place? Not saying GC or Posting Competition can`t have folk discussing these things but you couldn`t be more wrong if you tried."


Because these exact people are ex-DBPro programmers. Most of these people would download DBPro elite in the blink of an eye and return to the community, that's why it's so important to keep them here.

This may come as news to you, but we haven't had any new users for quite a while (at least that's my observation on the boards I'm active on). 2 years ago there was a new user every week.

Quote: "If it was not for the fact that folk enjoy the Posting Competition and I am not a MOD I would lock it right now just to prove a point."


And that's exactly why you're not a mod, that kind of childish behaviour would be devastating.

Quote: "If and when the thread is locked your saying that suddenly a community will cease to exist, thats rubbish to the very core."


You're not listening to what I'm saying. I said that a large chunk of the community would have nowhere to post any more. WIP threads are banned in GC, non TGC related WIP threads are banned everywhere else on the forum.

My whole point was: It would be very much in the interest of TGC to embrace the new technologies people are using rather than suppress all activity involving said technologies.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
Dar13
15
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 16:57
@James H
Perhaps TheComet is being somewhat melodramatic, but I share some of the same sentiments. DarkGDK was a trainwreck and was barely usable at release, while DarkGDK 2.0 was a straight up fraud. DBP was abandoned in the middle of an update cycle, with no direct alternative. AppGameKit focuses on a different type of developer and has an entirely different performance profile that makes me shudder.

Programming Talk is dead, and has been since I joined in 2008. Back then I remember there being at most 10 new/active threads a week. Now there's maybe one or two every other week.

I do feel like the forum has been split. FPSC Reloaded has its own forum that's on an entirely different site and has no link back to this one.

Quote: "How about the right place to post being on the sites provided by the products owners? What is your problem with seeing The Posting Competition as the only place? Not saying GC or Posting Competition can`t have folk discussing these things but you couldn`t be more wrong if you tried."

He means a place on the forums where a discussion would actually occur. There have been GC threads about the engines before but they die and then we'd have to recreate them every time someone wanted to talk about them. So instead we talk about them in The Posting Competition.

You're coming across as being personally attacked, while I don't see that tone in TheComet's post at all. Can we all just relax please? It's an internet forum, not a child in danger.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 18:40
I agree with TheComet. The TGC Community is pretty split up these days, because of the different products aimed at different audiences.

I used to hang out exclusively in the DBC boards when I first joined, learning as much as I could about programming with the language and looking at what other's were doing, it was great!

The AppGameKit Community is quite active from what I can tell, perhaps even more active than the DBC one was when I first joined over 7 years ago.

I have been playing with the current AppGameKit Demo and I am falling in love with it. It is like a much better version of DBC/DBP, and I'm sure that once V2 is fully developed and released, it will be the answer to a lot of people's prayers here on the forum.


Meh game development blaugh!
James H
16
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Joined: 21st Apr 2007
Location: St Helens
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 19:25
Dar13
I don`t feel personally attacked whatsoever so no need to relax - already am. What we type and how we read what others have typed can very often be perceived as not what is intended, what I have written I wrote calmly, I have no personal issue with TheComet at all but what he has written comes across as very negative towards TGC on THEIR site so naturally opposing what has been written isn`t going to appear in a positive light at all, however you may interpret my post you can be sure of one thing and that is there is most definately nothing personal going on. I read his post many times over to be sure I was interpreting it objectively, perhaps I have not succeeded in this 100% but overall I feel I have.
Now with regards to various points, they all are based around the statement that these points are an analysis of the community we currently have. Clearly I disagree in terms of reasoning.
With regards to GDK - its free, it is what it is and the 1 thing folk have missed is the point of DBP/DGDK which is to get folk interested in programming with a view to progress to other languages - this I got from the presentation at the 1st official convention. The fact that folk are discussing c++ indicates this has worked to some degree, I would hardly call that a disaster or a train wreck. I can`t speak for DGDK2 as I didn`t shell out for it but you should perhaps be careful of describing it as a straight up fraud on the very site of those that sell it. If you sold a product and was then accused of fraud on your own site do you not think that would be risky of the poster?
DBP was not abandoned, U77 was intended to be the last which was made clear and dbp`s future was "polled" with the elite thread, TGC made no promises in the first place and it is still being developed though it may well be a different product if it is released. For it to be abandoned then they would have had a set target and never reached it in my view. Nobody can expect them to continually provide updates - how do you expect them to make a living if they spend all their time or at least a significant proportion of it updating something thats already being sold. We all should be very happy with the fact that they continued to provide FREE updates for a very long time. Heck they even provided the source code in the end which they didn`t have to do, I have seen a fair amount of whining in the past about dbp`s future yet not one of them was or appears to be interested in taking the next step.
I cannot state anything of AppGameKit, I don`t have it. I may well procure it in the future but I am more than happy with dbp in its current state and therefore have little interest beyond it. My perspective is a hobbyist one rather than from someone who wishes to make a product or progress to another language.
I would agree there are not many posters for programming talk but your wrong about it being dead, for it to be dead then no posts at all would be the outcome, it might well be useful for it to be included in another board but if folk are posting elsewhere about it instead of the intended place then of course there will be less posts which was really my point. Perhaps I have taken this too literally while trying to be objective.
Of course I agree the forum is split regarding reloaded, no argument there, but this was not a point raised by TheComet(not saying thats what your saying of course).
In terms of other engines, well perhaps thats what he meant, the post however did not reflect that, perhaps the assumption was made that we would all know this BUT not everyone reads everything on the forum so how would anyone in this position know? Also there is nothing in the AUP that states you can`t open another thread after one is auto locked to revisit a topic. If you could take a moment to look at it this way - when someone is searching for an answer/solution/discusion on a topic and valuable information on said topic is slap bang in the middle of a different topic then its not likely to be found. Just food for thought.
Now, if anything I have stated comes across offensive in any manner please feel free to use the report button, I do not object, it is never my intention to offend nor am I taking anything personally, if I was I would just hit the report button myself. Maybe if I had posted something with a positive spin it would appear different overall.
I would however be interested in which parts of my post you feel I responded to as if I was attacked personally so that I may correct my behaviour if that was the case. If it has anything to do with my opening line - well that was becuase Ive read many of TheComets posts and felt that was not how he would normally respond/post. Am not saying the communtiy isn`t split but simply the points were someowhat weak which is what I was driving at. There are communities within communities here, at one point I never stepped outside the dbp community and did not consider myself tgc community per say, so naturally we should expect some split to a degree when products go in a different direction. I strongly beleive they know what they are doing, they have a history of it
One very valid point along those lines is that there is no link from reloaded forums to tgc site at all - I havent looked thoroughly but that doesn`t make sense to do that? It recognises my account without having to log in again and the only reference I find to TGC is in normal text on home page below Mr Vanners name, they even have a GC board. Perhaps this has more to do with the phases of development between the sites so as to reduce the risk of a multitude of questions, ie they expect reloaded to generate many new users who might repeatedly confuse fpsc with reloaded such as getting media to work, that kind of thing? There is one thing that should be considered, the more they produce the more complex the forums/sites will become - looks to me they have taken the right steps so that they can continue to succesfully moderate while they expand.
Now I can`t help wonder what will be the future version of dbp? AGK2 or Reloaded(there was mention of this as its a bit like fpscx10 ie dbpx10 used for it in house then released as modders kit)?
Kindest regards
TheComet
16
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 18th Nov 2014 20:24
@James H

I am glad you remain composed. I have no personal problems with you or anyone on TGC, including TGC as a whole. I really feel deeply for TGC and wish only the best for it.

--------------------------------------------------------
(DGDK & TGC community rant & The Posting Competition)

You're putting words into my mouth, words I did not imply.

For one, I am not calling anything a fraud here. DarkGDK was a failure in terms of the community surrounding it and in terms of the knowledge surrounding it. Yes, you could make games with it and yes, it did open up a new world for programmers to explore. It seemed like a great idea at the time. The big mistake that no one foresaw at the time was that C++ is one of the ugliest monsters to tackle. Even if you're not new to programming, even if you're a master guru at assembly and C, C++ will rock your world until tears of memory leaks stream down your cheeks and your compiler blows off your arm.

No one could handle the switch, and you know what happens when you throw noobs into a room? There will be a bad codebase, bad advice, and overall bad experience for everyone. This is exactly what happened on the GDK boards.

What was also not foreseen is the fact that nearly everyone who took up DarkGDK realised that there are better libraries/frameworks than DarkGDK out there. C++ does not restrict you to using GDK.

I argue, from personal experience as well as from observing the activity of GDK, DBP and its users over the years, that there was a lost business opportunity to catch the people jumping the ship that was GDK.

These very people who are now off exploring what can really be done in C++ using Ogre3D, Urho3D, Irrlicht, etc., some of them are still attached to TGC's community, but they have no real way to share their creations other than in The Posting Competition. Unfortunately, a lot of people left TGC for good for this very reason.

I'll say this again: It's in the best interest of TGC to try and keep these people. These are highly valuable users with a lot of experience under their belt. Maybe you don't realise the importance of this, but I sure as hell do. Losing these members will kill a vast majority of the community, and this is something - in my opinion - TGC cannot afford right now.

-------------------------------------------------------------
(DBP)

You're right. DBP did have a fantastic lifetime and attracted many people. I'm sitting on the fence to whether or not there will be a DBPe, but my gut is telling me there will be none. I really hope I am proven wrong.

There are definitely people willing to continue to patch DBP, but everyone lacks the experience and frankly, the source code is a huge mess. Believe me when I say I've tried to decipher it. I have a good understanding of how it was built, but in my expert opinion, there's no saving it. You may want to build your own opinion over the source though, so I invite you to take a look.

-------------------------------------------------------------
(misc)

Quote: "Also there is nothing in the AUP that states you can`t open another thread after one is auto locked to revisit a topic. If you could take a moment to look at it this way - when someone is searching for an answer/solution/discusion on a topic and valuable information on said topic is slap bang in the middle of a different topic then its not likely to be found. Just food for thought."


A very good point.

Unfortunately, I heard a moderator the other day talk about why WIP threads are generally not accepted on GC here.

TL;DR: We need a dedicated place for unity/C++/non-TGC WIPs and discussions. Maybe the Programming Talk board is exactly for this, I don't know. If it is then it should be advertised as such, because moderators have always said that there really is no other place for WIPs.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
James H
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Posted: 18th Nov 2014 21:22
TheComet
Quote: "Drunk? Even if I were drunk I still wouldn't be mixing up my "your" and "you're" like you are."

Lol, sadly the internet does not require me to be fully qualified in correct use of grammar, later in your post you call me childish.... forgive my bad typing if you can, I do my best I promise.
Quote: "Well then it's obviously not well organised, is it?"

Er TGC can only go so far in terms of organisation, can`t hold them responsible for other peoples failings!
Quote: "My proof? My whole post was my opinion. I roam GC, DBPro, DBP Newcomers, DBC, Dark GDK, and I'm pretty sure I have a good feeling for how the community is functioning. If you've paid any attention you'll notice that most of the traffic on this forum is on GC (correct me if I'm wrong in saying this). At least compared to the other boards I'm active on."

Sorry but when you used "analyse" I was expecting to see proof, but yes GC does appear more active. I guess I saw "I think" as completely separate to this part, although same paragraph its a different sentence.
Quote: "The general gist: A lot of users aren't really using TGC products any more, they've moved on to bigger and better things.
If you compare the traffic today to how the traffic was 2 years ago, you'll see a drastic drop. You've been here long enough to see this, I'm sure."

Agreed.
Quote: "Because it is a disaster! As someone who's been programming in C/C++ for years I am insulted by the code I see and by the help most users have tried to give. It doesn't take a genius to look at the code people produce and notice that the vast majority is very badly structured, full of memory leaks (because C++ is such a language that will blow your leg off if you don't know what you're doing) and just plain wrong.
The DarkGDK boards are basically dead. There are two users, s_i and WickedX, who are using it as a replacement for skype. You call that an active and healthy community?"

I don`t doubt what you say regarding quality, I don`t frequent the board much, but here`s the thing - I was still under the impression it was supposed to be an analysis rather than opinion, I view it as that when you ask for help you are not guaranteed to be satisfied with it, when people are learning still and they think they have the answers requested they will sometimes post, so when you ask for it and are not satisfied as those were the type of responses you got, then you may percieve this as disastrous, as you said earlier a lot have moved on - I was looking at this through the entire time its been available on the forum and in the earlier days I read posts a lot of people seemed happy enough with repsonses. Here I have made the mistake of time, you are clearly refering to more current times, my apologies.
Quote: "I have tried, and that board is more dead than DarkDGK."

If folk want to help they can still help - on the right board. I don`t think my view on this will change, that said I still remain open minded on the matter. Not that my view on the subject matters much! Surely this is a case of "things come up in conversation"?
Quote: "I have no problem with minors making games, in fact I encourage it and think it's a great exercise. I was making a sarcastic jab at the situation of FPSC and you failed to interpret it as such."

Good to hear(read) - Yes I missed the sarcasm!
Quote: "Because these exact people are ex-DBPro programmers. Most of these people would download DBPro elite in the blink of an eye and return to the community, that's why it's so important to keep them here."

Well you never mentioned anything about them all being ex dbp coders hence the confusion. To anyone not knowing this was what you meant then it looks like your saying the other engines don`t have a forum to use. I otherwise agree. Although we can`t keep them here if they already left!!
Quote: "This may come as news to you, but we haven't had any new users for quite a while (at least that's my observation on the boards I'm active on). 2 years ago there was a new user every week."

Lol I didn`t miss that sarcasm! Knowing what you meant , of course I agree.
Quote: "And that's exactly why you're not a mod, that kind of childish behaviour would be devastating."

No, Im` not a MOD because a)I haven`t been asked b)I wouldn`t want to be. Besides this I am saying even if I was a MOD I wouldn`t lock it because folk enjoy it. Theres nothing childish about proving a point. You seem to be viewing the community as people who actively post, whereas I view it as site activity. A few hours ago I looked at the number veiwing the whole site - there were 98 users logged in and 8 users anonymous, the majority of the named users logged in I have seen posts many times before, I therefore see them as part of the community. This is obviously only over a period of 15 minutes but they still visited. However most of them did not make a single post. Do you see where I am coming from? Just because people don`t post all the time doesn`t mean they are not part of the community. The site is more active than you think, in my opinion of course.
Quote: "You're not listening to what I'm saying. I said that a large chunk of the community would have nowhere to post any more"

I get what your saying, but in line with my view on the community I disagree with what you call a large chunk. We may have to beg to differ on this one.
Quote: "WIP threads are banned in GC, non TGC related WIP threads are banned everywhere else on the forum"

erm, I don`t get what your saying here? Its not as though the "chunk" are posting WIPs in the that thread? HAve I missed something in what your saying?
Earlier you said The Posting Competition is the most active part of the forum, are you comparing it to any other single thread or against boards? Or are you talking of how much attention it gets from numbers of users? Heres the thing - for you to state that locking the thread will lose half the community is to me absurd. The AppGameKit board alone would be significantly more by a long shot. Collectively all the boards that recieve posts would still be more by a long shot. Also these figures would not include those that view the site without posting. I hope you see what I`m saying, don`t get me wrong I understand we might see some number of people going elswhere, ones I would rather stay, but the bigger picture is that those people arent keeping TGC afloat. TGC know exactly what they are doing, they are earning money and doing whats best to keep earning that money while trying their utmost to find a happy medium between their workload and keeping their end users happy. They aren`t like m$, they care for their community a lot, if they didn`t we wouldn`t have these products in the first place or all of those wonderful updates and dbp for free. They to are enthusiasts so they know where we stand. Times change and if they don`t move with it they(and we) will get left behind. They have a history of doing this so we should trust them is all I`m saying. Yes the community is split to a degree but life goes on and we must all roll with the times, nothing stays good forever, thats just the way things are.
Dar13
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Posted: 18th Nov 2014 21:34
Quote: "I can`t speak for DGDK2 as I didn`t shell out for it but you should perhaps be careful of describing it as a straight up fraud on the very site of those that sell it. If you sold a product and was then accused of fraud on your own site do you not think that would be risky of the poster?"

DarkGDK 2.0 was developed and marketed by Mistrel. He took preorders for an unfinished product with the promise of using the beta version of the software and the final product, and then left without a word. In other words, he took the money and ran. If DarkGDK 2.0 was not affiliated with TGC, I apologize. Needless to say, the implied threat is not particularly welcomed.

Quote: "DBP was not abandoned, U77 was intended to be the last which was made clear and dbp`s future was "polled" with the elite thread, TGC made no promises in the first place and it is still being developed though it may well be a different product if it is released."

DBP U77 was never finished. It is still a Release Candidate rather than an official update. Regardless of TGC's plan for the language, the way they abruptly stopped support was not the best way to do it. DBP U77 is still in RC7, almost 3 years later.

Quote: "Heck they even provided the source code in the end which they didn`t have to do, I have seen a fair amount of whining in the past about dbp`s future yet not one of them was or appears to be interested in taking the next step."

Taking the next step with a proprietary language that uses a still undisclosed compiler? What would you have us do? Creating a compiler is no easy task, much less ensuring binary or API compatibility with the original DBP.

Quote: "I would however be interested in which parts of my post you feel I responded to as if I was attacked personally so that I may correct my behaviour if that was the case."

Your use of capitalization when responding to TheComet is not typical of calm discussion, but of heated defensiveness.

@TheComet
Holy double post.

James H
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Posted: 18th Nov 2014 23:27
Quote: "DarkGDK 2.0 was developed and marketed by Mistrel. He took preorders for an unfinished product with the promise of using the beta version of the software and the final product, and then left without a word. In other words, he took the money and ran. If DarkGDK 2.0 was not affiliated with TGC, I apologize. Needless to say, the implied threat is not particularly welcomed."

Well if thats true then fair enough, that would be disgraceful, on the other hand I hope nothing bad has happened to the guy that could be a reason behind this such as passing away. But to be clear I imply no threat, its not possible for me to take action which you should already know?? Therefore I am in no possible position to make such a threat or therefore imply one. For the record in such a case I don`t imply anything, I said what I said in plain English, the implication would be made by yourself with what you wrote. I was however showing concern to make you aware of something, you read to much into it. I promise you I would simply say a threat, not imply one, or in this case inform the correct person so they may carry out liable action based on slander, as threats are against AUP. Not to worry next time I will take care not to be concerned for you. I have no idea on the affiliation but it is "advertised" or at least has a few sticky posts made on the DGDK board regarding its sale and availability.
Quote: "DBP U77 was never finished. It is still a Release Candidate rather than an official update. Regardless of TGC's plan for the language, the way they abruptly stopped support was not the best way to do it. DBP U77 is still in RC7, almost 3 years later."

Ah yes, so it is. Forgot it was RC. Even so they did not have to go as far as they did with free updates, though yes abandoned is appropriate way of putting it on reflection.
Quote: "Taking the next step with a proprietary language that uses a still undisclosed compiler? What would you have us do? Creating a compiler is no easy task, much less ensuring binary or API compatibility with the original DBP"

Well you have me here, I did not think that would be the next step in terms of compiler, I thought the compiler was disclosed(well I assumed) and no I have no idea what it would take if it was as I clearly have no experience in this area. I understand proprietry as meaning TGC own the rights, to my mind if you were simply updating something thats for free in the first place then you shouldn`t expect to sell it but provide it for free to others, or if you didn`t want to help the community out at least ask TGC before continueing if you could still produce something using your version of the update so that you might sell or provide free your DBP/DGDK created program on its completion. This leads me to ask - what is the point then of them providing source? Is it simply to learn from while making your own plugins? I don`t undersatnd as I could have sworn it was mentioned it could be altered. I am confused :/
Quote: "Your use of capitalization when responding to TheComet is not typical of calm discussion, but of heated defensiveness."

I did this to 3 words - the same word twice "YOU" and "MOD", MOD I capitalize because thats how I thought its supposed to be and YOU I capitalized because it was a longish post and I couldn`t be bothered to either type the tags or move my hand to the mouse to highlight and click. Even if you were to consider the use as representative of shouting, the context I have used them in does not show anything of a defensive nature, more so that their use in that context shows no correlation with anything TheComet wrote that could be percieved as aimed at myself on a personal level. So I must ask why you think I would be defensive over nothing? That to me makes no sense at all. Least of all would I consider what is quite a long post that has just 2 sentences with no personal context or reference being the reason behind an entire post being rendered as me "coming across as being personally attacked". About the only thing I can percieve as anyone coming under attack would be TGC and most certainly not by myself.
Clonkex
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 00:36
Quote: "As far as I know App Game Kit HACICTAPBAITB"


lol

TheComet: I've deleted the first post of your double-post because it was making it hard to read the thread.

Quote: "MOD I capitalize because thats how I thought its supposed to be"


"Mod" is short for moderator and doesn't need to be in caps

Speaking of moderators... Guize, you've derailed this thread rather severely. I realise posting in a forum where a thread is locked the instant there's a "heated debate" is no fun at all, so I'm definitely not going to lock it yet, but I would ask you quickly wind up your "discussion" so as not to turn this into a flame war

I definitely agree that there should be a "General WIP" board for non-TGC WIP projects, or perhaps some other solution. Either way, I really like this community and want to be able to post my Unity WIP here but can't yet. Maybe we need to merge some boards - maybe merge "Programming Talk" with a "General WIP" board to create a "Non-TGC Projects" board?

James H
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 02:14
TheComet
Darn post approval meant I did not see your post!
Quote: "You're putting words into my mouth, words I did not imply.

For one, I am not calling anything a fraud here"

Actually that was intended for Dar13 only regarding DGDK2.
With regards to pretty much everything else in your post, now I have a fuller understanding of where you are coming from/confusion from your original post I remarked on resolved, I find validity now with pretty much all you have just stated

Dar13
I hope you are not offended by my previous post, I assure you no ill will was ever intended. When I state "Not to worry next time I will take care not to be concerned for you" I realize that is kind of making things personal. I would like to recant this comment if you will accept.

Clonkex
Please accept my apologies, I did not wish to derail the thread but in essence I think I have been the one to start us off on this course.

Yodaman Jer
I am sorry for derailing your thread, I hope it can get back on track with immediate effect.
TheComet
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 02:20
@James H - Yeah it was a little confusing, I answered to something not directed at me.

It seems I was wrong about how inactive, or rather, how active AppGameKit is. I'm not part of that world so I just didn't know.

Also sorry about the personal insults, I reacted as such because you were calling me drunk.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
Clonkex
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 02:34
Awesome! Exactly the resolution I was hoping for! No one was hurt, and you both came out with a better understanding of each other's (or is that others'? How many people is the word referring to here...?) feelings about the forums!

Quote: "Please accept my apologies, I did not wish to derail the thread but in essence I think I have been the one to start us off on this course."


Apologies well and truly accepted!

I just have one question, purely out curiosity: James H, why do you use backticks (AKA grave accents) instead of real apostrophes? Is your apostrophe key broken maybe?

James H
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 03:20
TheComet
Sorry for suggesting you were drunk, did not consider it might be taken as personal, I rarely drink so if I had someone say it to me how I meant it I would have just thought it was meant with regards to unusual behaviour. I should have apologized for that a lot sooner!

Clonkex
Quote: "other's (or is that others'?"

I would have just used others
Regarding the back tick - because I'm an idiot! I've been using it since as far back as I can remember, didn't even register until now that it wasn't a real apostrophe!
Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 03:27
Quote: "each other's or is that others'"
Not certain, but I do know that ownership by multiple people is depicted by an apostrophe after the s. This situation is sort of difficult to tell.

Upon research, it would appear that each other's is the correct form. In this case, 'other' is not a plural noun, and therefore requires an 's. However, if 'others' was the noun, it would be plural, and would require only the addition of an apostrophe.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 19th Nov 2014 04:03
Lol, I go away for one afternoon and look what happens to my thread

But anyway, I'm really diggin' AGK. I played around some more this morning and I think I may just pledge after my next paycheck. The AppGameKit community is thriving and very much alive, it gives me a lot of hope for this community! I think a lot of them don't come down to Geek Culture because they may not know it exists. I didn't realize it existed until I was a member for several months, I was only aware of the DBC/DBP boards.

Regarding general WIP and discussion relating to non-TGC products, last year The Next created a NaGaCreMo board for that exact purpose. Clonkex, do you think you'd be able to see if that could expanded to not be just for NaGaCreMo, but for year-round discussion? Perhaps combine it with Programming Talk as previously suggested?


Meh game development blaugh!
Clonkex
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 04:25
Quote: "I would have just used others"


And you would have been incorrect. You have a word you want to be possessive without an apostrophe unless it's a pronoun (his, hers, whose, etc.)!

Quote: "Regarding the back tick - because I'm an idiot! I've been using it since as far back as I can remember, didn't even register until now that it wasn't a real apostrophe!"


lol

Quote: "However, if 'others' was the noun, it would be plural"


Oh yeah, duh. I only had to say "each others" out loud without meaning possession to realise how dumb that sounded

Quote: "Lol, I go away for one afternoon and look what happens to my thread"


Hehe that's always the way

Quote: "But anyway, I'm really diggin' AGK. I played around some more this morning and I think I may just pledge after my next paycheck. The AppGameKit community is thriving and very much alive, it gives me a lot of hope for this community!"


Indeed! I can't speak for V2 (although I've heard good reports so far), but V1 AppGameKit is an excellent product! I've owned V1 AppGameKit for ages now, and I'm also seriously considering getting V2

Quote: "I think a lot of them don't come down to Geek Culture because they may not know it exists. I didn't realize it existed until I was a member for several months"


That's definitely true! For at least two years after I joined I thought it said Greek Culture and so never came here. I genuinely thought TGC had a board just for Greek people

Quote: "Regarding general WIP and discussion relating to non-TGC products, last year The Next created a NaGaCreMo board for that exact purpose. Clonkex, do you think you'd be able to see if that could expanded to not be just for NaGaCreMo, but for year-round discussion? Perhaps combine it with Programming Talk as previously suggested?"


Not convinced about that, since TheNext may want to continue using it for NaGaCreMo. My suggestion would be to simply rename Programming Talk to something more inclusive (something like Non-TGC Projects, although that's a little nondescript) and change the rules. And make sure it stays in the Game Making section of the board list! The General section is all the way down the bottom where no one every goes

I will definitely talk to TheNext about this though

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 19th Nov 2014 16:45 Edited at: 19th Nov 2014 16:46
WHOA, it's like TGC knows I wanted to buy AppGameKit, as they just released it!

Photographic Evidence:


Do I have the best timing, or what?

Sadly this means I won't get a badge for making the pledge, but that's ok I guess.


Meh game development blaugh!

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baxslash
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 17:43
I'm surprised to see people thinking the community is dying. It's not, the AppGameKit forum is very active. Not sure about FPSCR forums but I know DBP and of course DBC are becoming very slow these days.

Leave the Dark side folks and become an AppGameKit Jedi instead

TGC have embraced new technology, it's in AppGameKit
Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 19th Nov 2014 17:57 Edited at: 19th Nov 2014 23:41
Quote: "TGC have embraced new technology, it's in AGK"

It's not the same. AppGameKit is a bytecode based language that runs in a VM unless you're in Tier 2. DBP could at least be somewhat fast as it compiled to straight machine code, but AppGameKit simply doesn't have a chance (performance-wise on desktop). Hopefully TGC can fix some of these speed issues but when you're dealing with a VM there's only so much you can do.

Edit: Added clarification.

Matty H
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 22:27
Quote: "but AppGameKit simply doesn't have a chance"


Of all my years here I have never seen so many published games from this community as I see now with AGK. Obviously that's mainly because of the boom in mobile games but TGC are providing us with a great tool to take full advantage.

I missed the early DBPro days when all the old timers were working stuff out and creating great games. It's happening again right now for a new generation of game developers over on the AppGameKit board. I would argue it may be even better this time around because of the high publishing rate.

I also develop in Unity and UE4, but AppGameKit is still the best choice for many of my ideas.

baxslash
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Posted: 19th Nov 2014 23:45
I have never experienced any speed issues with AGK. Seriously
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 00:11
Quote: " I have never experienced any speed issues with AGK. Seriously "

Not even the aforementioned math issues? I'm not trying to bash on AppGameKit here, I'm trying to get a feel for its performance since I don't own it.

Matty H
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 10:40
There was a recent post about the string functions being slow, so that is something agk users(tier 1) should be aware of. But I have made a game with tier 1 with plenty of math and it runs great on all devices.

Van B
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 13:14
The only slowdown I've suffered with AppGameKit is when the device is not very powerful - on PC and good devices it's perfectly fine, more than fast enough for our needs I'd say.

It's not like people are using AppGameKit to write the next big FPS, 2D is the main use of AppGameKit and that won't change much no matter how expansive the 3D functions become.

As for sections for other programming languages... well there is one, and it's not actively used, so I don't see any justification in adding more!
The purpose of this forum is to provide support to users of TGC products, other languages are big enough to take care of themselves and are not our concern. If you are not using TGC products, then you are not a TGC product user, and you cannot expect this forum to cater to your needs, simple as that.

I am the one who knocks...
Matty H
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 13:36
Quote: "If you are not using TGC products, then you are not a TGC product user, and you cannot expect this forum to cater to your needs, simple as that."


I don't think this would be TGC's official position, although I'm just guessing. It just makes good business sense to allow past users to remain active in the community, some proportion of them will then be future users too.

There are WIP threads on this board from people using Unity etc, I think the mods should get together and decide what's allowed and what's not because you all seem to have your own conflicting views on this particular matter.

I think a good compromise would be to allow people to post about their foreign projects as long as they have not just joined for that purpose only.

TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 14:12
Quote: "The purpose of this forum is to provide support to users of TGC products, other languages are big enough to take care of themselves and are not our concern. If you are not using TGC products, then you are not a TGC product user, and you cannot expect this forum to cater to your needs, simple as that."


This is what I'm talking about. I feel this is a highly destructive attitude for TGC's community.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
Van B
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Posted: 20th Nov 2014 14:39
TGC's official position is ''Why in the blue hell would we promote other peoples development products?''

This is common sense - see TGC is a business, it operates by selling products to customers, it doesn't make a profit by supporting any and all languages. As I already pointed out, there is a section for other languages that is barely even used... maybe you missed that again, let me re-iterate:

This forum has a section for other languages and it is not being used.

Does the official Unity forum have an AppGameKit or DBPro section?
Is it destructive that they don't have an AppGameKit section?

Here's a thought, why not go to the Unity forum and request an AppGameKit section there and see what happens - take that response, and apply it here... and if you don't like it, stay on the Unity forum and post your diatribe there instead. It doesn't matter 1 bit what an individual moderators views are on the subject, TGC will never have a section for Unity on this forum, accept it and move on. The forum is not here to support your specific needs, and it is nothing more than arrogance to insist that it should.

You talk like we don't have a history to look back on Comet, like the moderators here are not watching you like a fricken hawk - your opinion on the way we moderate this forum counts for absolutely nothing.

I am the one who knocks...
BatVink
Moderator
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 15:05
VanB's analogy is a good one. To put it back in the physical world, it is like asking Caffe Nero to recommend the best Starbucks coffee, or Orange to help you out with your O2 contract.

There are many forums that are independent of companies that sell, and these are the ones that have the luxury of working across brands and products. But you won't find a Virgin Media board on the Sky forums.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
Matty H
15
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Joined: 7th Oct 2008
Location: England
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 15:10
Sorry to say it Van B but you are arguing against something that no one has even suggested, as far as I know nobody has requested a Unity section on this forum.

Also, discussing languages has nothing to do with showing progress on your latest game you are developing with another engine.

I could post links to some WIP's on this board that use other game engines only I don't want to get them locked. I am totally confused now whether you are allowed to post WIP's on here or not?

TheComet
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2007
Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 16:02
I understand your views and where you're coming from.

Quote: "TGC's official position is ''Why in the blue hell would we promote other peoples development products?''"


Quote: "TGC is a business, it operates by selling products to customers, it doesn't make a profit by supporting any and all languages."


Is this an actual fact, or is this your opinion?

This is the mentality I disagree with. You sell a product, a community arises around the product, and the people who outgrow the product are ditched. Doesn't this cap the total knowledge a community can have, because you're getting rid of the experienced people? Is the forum's purpose really only about the product, and not about community interaction?

The comparison you're making with Unity forums isn't really a fair or equal one. Unity focuses on exactly one product, TGC covers many, many branches of game development. There are people here developing tools (IDEs, level editors, etc.) to help the less experienced develop games, there are people writing plugins for your languages, and many more things. DGDK/C++, GDK.NET/C#, DBP Plugins/C++, AGK/Mobile, scripting/lua/python, etc.

TGC is closer to a general game development forum than anything else.

Do you not believe that community building is an important aspect for TGC's success? Is it not in TGC's interest to keep these potential customers around? To keep these potential tool developers here?

Quote: "This forum has a section for other languages and it is not being used."


It sure hasn't been promoted, though.

I could compile a list of links pointing to at least 20 posts of moderators who've locked a WIP thread with them saying games being developed using a non-TGC product is not allowed on these forums.

Why aren't those thread moved to the relevant boards? Why aren't people informed of the existence of these boards?

Quote: "You talk like we don't have a history to look back on Comet, like the moderators here are not watching you like a fricken hawk - your opinion on the way we moderate this forum counts for absolutely nothing."


I am fully aware of my history, but it has little relevance to the validity of my opinion.

I like offending people. People who get offended should be offended. -- Linus Torvalds
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 20th Nov 2014 16:11
@Van B:

There seems to be a lot of miscommunication in this thread! Let me try to clear it up a little bit.

We aren't requesting specific sections for other on-TGC products. All that's really been suggested is that perhaps TGC could create (or merge) a section that allows people to post WIP threads on their games that aren't made with DBP/AGK/FPSC. We don't want a Unity support forum, or Unreal support forum, or GameMaker support forum - just a place in which we can post non-TGC WIP threads, much like the NaGaCreMo board The Next made for us last year.

My suggestion was a bit poorly worded as well, so I'll try to clear it up. If we could somehow take the Programming Talk board and merge it with the NaGaCreMo board and put both of those boards together in some kind of "Gaming" section, it would allow many users the chance to post their WIPs that aren't made with any TGC products, and help stimulate the Programming Talk threads. I realize this is probably way easier said than done, but it was just a quick thought. I, like many others, have "graduated" from DBP and as a result, am unable to post any reports on games I'm making with other engines, which makes coming to this place quite difficult and not as fun. It would be great if we could have a "global" WIP board, and I really think it would completely re-juvinate the community overall.

However, back on point of this thread (haha ), I am about to buy AppGameKit 2 by the end of the month for the development of my 2D games, so I will be hanging around quite a lot more in the AppGameKit boards which have TONS of activity.

Y'know, I just realized, maybe people haven't been coming back to Geek Culture as much because of all the trolling that happened several months/a year or so ago with those threads from Fluffy Rabbit, Pincho Paxton and whoever else was trolling. If I had been a newcomer around those times you can bet I'd been outta here and only staying in the product boards


Meh game development blaugh!

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