Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

AppGameKit Classic Chat / Why Do You Game Dev? Hobbyist Purely for Fun, Wanna-Be Indie Game Solo Business, Wanna-Be Indie Game Company With Employees, Currently Making A Living From Game Dev?

Author
Message
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 21:06 Edited at: 10th Mar 2018 13:16
Hey folks... I thought it might be interesting to learn a bit more about each other.

There are many reasons for doing game dev ranging from just doing it as a hobby purely for fun with no desire to make money from it to doing it as a full-time career as a solo business or owning a company with employees.

If you don't mind... post and let us know why you are doing game dev with App Game Kit 2... what are you hoping to get out of it?

I asked so I should answer... for me I have always enjoyed game dev. Honestly for a long time I just enjoyed building game engines. I'd see games on the C64 and Amiga for example and set out to make a similar game but only about 1 level before I got bored and moved on to another.

I wasn't really focused on completing games during thst time. Just in figuring out how to make the games I played and how to do things better than the games I played.

That lasted a long time well over a decade just purely the fun of the challenge and learning. Then I started completing some games. Still was for fun.

Back in 2001 I decided to try my hand at shareware and made a game in Blitz Basic 2D on Windows. After selling about 10 or 20 copies (maybe it was 50 to 100 but point is it wasn't much at all for having 4 and 5 star ratings) over a 6-month period through a service named RegSoft I decided there was no way for me to do this for money unless I learned marketing.

So I focused the next 7 years on learning Internet marketing (I really immerse myself into something when it interests me... never planned on staying with this IM for so long). I still did some game dev here and there purely for fun during that time as well.

A year and a half ago I decided to maybe try the Indie thing starting out very small games building up a framework, patterns & workflows to maximize speed over time and each new game would be a little bigger than the last.

Figured I would release the first 5 to 6 games purely for free just to "warm up" and build up some awareness of myself then switch over to my first game for Steam being able to reference my free games as a way to lend some credibility to myself.

Unfortunately after my second game was released life happened and that all came to an end. I just did no game dev for a few months and was burned out from pushing on it and then being hit with personal and work stress. Slowly been getting my interest back again. Feeling really good about it again now thanks to AGK2!

I am almost thinking I might continue with my original plan of creating another 3 to 4 free games... tiny games... each a little bigger than the last... and then make my first game for Steam.

If I do and it sells the great! If not I do this stuff 99.99% just for fun anyway.

EDIT...
Just in case anyone wonders what those two free games I made in 2016 to warm up for an Indie game project were they can be played in browser or downloaded for Windows on GameJolt...

Atlantic Crisis


Treasures of Ali-Gar


Yeah I was still using Unity at the time. I had worked on that and streamlining my workflows in Unity for quite a while. I still just was never crazy about it despite how much effort I put into making it work the way I wanted to develop and compared to AGK2 I definitely prefer AGK2. I think using AGK2 I could have knocked 20% of development time off these games.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
puzzler2018
User Banned
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 21:11 Edited at: 9th Mar 2018 21:13
Hello

I just love game designing, I started when I was 7 with the Atari, moving onto Spectrum and going to grand-dads every day seeing him play Scrabble. So instead of me wanting to play scrabble, i just said to myself - How the blooming heck was the displayed on screen.

It went on from there, Programming books, self writing..

then Amos came along, I waited years for that (Thanks Rick and Francois)... and Game Development came to a whole new level and here i am still today - still going very strong
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 21:13 Edited at: 9th Mar 2018 21:13
@puzzler2018 Do you plan on keeping it a hobby? Or have plans to go Indie as a solo game developer or one day own a game dev company with several full-time employees?
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
puzzler2018
User Banned
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 21:16
If I can get my finger out then love to have my first pay cheque one day.

But hobbyist at the moment until that happen, I live a very hectic life and weekends only - but need rest as well, so bit difficult to focus a lot on it at the moment.

But I want to try and achieve the best results each time I do any programming. Small steps, small designs, building structure into one final project, as you may be seeing with the minecraft project
Ortu
DBPro Master
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Nov 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 21:46 Edited at: 9th Mar 2018 21:48
For me, mostly hobbyist purely for fun.

I wouldn't be opposed to turning it into a business if something really took off, but that isn't the goal or the reason I do it, and I've already got a solid career in the 'real world'

I doubt I've got the right mindset for games as a business, I dont tend to approach design thinking of ways to monetize a product, I approach it thinking of ways to tell an engaging story.
http://games.joshkirklin.com/sulium

A single player RPG featuring a branching, player driven storyline of meaningful choices and multiple endings alongside challenging active combat and intelligent AI.
IronManhood
9
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Feb 2015
Location: US
Posted: 9th Mar 2018 22:17 Edited at: 9th Mar 2018 22:18
It's been a hobby for me for around 6 years now but I'm trying to turn it into a career. I love it.

My interest in game shifted into development back when I was playing gmod. Expression2 in wiremod hooked me into programming and from there I learned c++ then AGK. I attended school for game development and learned a bit on the creative side, creating models, textures etc. I have learned quite a lot.
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 05:17
Thanks for sharing. It is always interesting to find out more about the folks you hang out with in these game dev communities.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Lucas Tiridath
AGK Developer
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2008
Location: Kings Langley, UK
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 07:58
Nice thread! For me, it definitely started as a hobby. I used to make little board games, and then discovered video games so taught myself to program with DarkBASIC Pro to make them. I ended up doing a Games Programming course and after that got a job at a game studio where I stayed for three years. However I've recently made the move from that into low level graphics programming, so game dev is really just a hobby once again. I've considered going indie many times, but I could never convince myself that I had a financially viable plan for doing so. Looking at the state of the main marketplaces now, I have very little confidence that even a well made indie game can avoid being lost in the crowd.

Glad to hear you're getting your momentum back now GarBenjamin. Burnout is definitely real. Good luck with your project if you decide to keep working on you free games and eventually try to go indie. And of course good luck to all of you with hobby projects too!
Blendman
10
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Feb 2014
Location: Arkeos
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 09:36
Hi

Great thread.
From 2000 to 2011, i have worked in game studio (games for pc, ps2, ps3, xbox, ps vita, wii...). I was graphist (2d artworks, 3d modeling, textures, storyboards, story writing...).
In 2006, in my holidays, I have made a little game demo for myself, with the blender game engine (i use blender since 1998), which name was dragonia (3d rpg). In september 2006, i have started a personnal 2d iso game named moonkiroe. I have tried to do it for the game studio in which i worked from 2008 to 2011. Unfortunately, in 2011, i have lost my job, the studio has closed in 2012/ 2013.

So since 2006, I work on my own projects, for me and my family .
2006-2011 : moonkiroe, 2d iso game, mmorpg
2009-2018+ : arkeos chronicle, 2d iso rpg (made with agk since 2014).

I have tried lots of engine and game tools (im not a developper), like game maker, constructs, gamedevelop, unity, c/c++ sdl, xna c#, purebasic, darkbasic, blitz.
In 2014, i have bought agk and was amazed by this tool .

So, since 2014, I hope to win moneys with one of my games ^^ (because im disabled and can only work at home). I have a lot of projetcs, i just hope to have the time to do it . (Arkeos, dragonia, age 3d, puf &squeeze ( 3d platformer action), puf pvp action shooter...)
AGK2 tier1 - http://www.dracaena-studio.com
Zigi
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jul 2009
Location:
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 11:23 Edited at: 10th Mar 2018 11:37
I started game dev because I was curious how games are made and I had some ideas but I didn't have any programming experience and I was doing a non tech related job so it was a mystery to me how all that is made on the screen. I started for fun and hobby but I was hoping I may be able to make a living from it but it is remained a dream only but I'm still hoping.
I started with Pascal but realised soon, for making games it is not the best choice but it was a nice experience to make the first steps in programming for the first time then I moved on to C# and XNA but at the time it was too confusing to me also because my english was not very good at the time but I've found books and tutorials only in English. So, it was a very challenging experience. Then I discovered DarkBasic Pro and FPS Creator and I did my first steps in game dev using these tools and I learned a lot about how games are made but I always lost motivation to finish any games I was working on and because of life and work I also lost interest in game dev and programming for a very long time. My interest come back when AGK2 has released, and become very excited when FPSC:Reloaded has been announced but that's an other story......

To make long story short, recently I got tired of waiting for someone else to add features I need and fix internal bugs I'm facing and because I haven't got the money to hire someone to do it for me, I decided to develop my own framework from the ground up using Javascript and HTML5 but not for fun or hobby this time. I have an idea that I want to turn in to a business and it require me to have full control on what I want to do and how I want to do it and I'm making this framework to fit my idea specifically. It is also a very nice experience to improve my skills in programming but I keep AppGameKit on my radar, after all I'm developing my framework with very little experience from low budget while AppGameKit is being developed with years of experience in the industry by paid developers so by the time I finish my framework or a lot sooner, AppGameKit may be just better for my idea, but not at the moment. It missing many important features I need especially in HTML5 platform and I don't see it coming, so for now I don't plan using AppGameKit for business, only using it for fun and quick experiments and prototypes especially on mobile. Using the broadcasting feature it is just the fastest way to try things on mobile devices.
edler
6
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Jan 2018
Location:
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 11:30
I started with ZXspectrum 48k. I programed a conversational adventure game similar to Indiana Jones and another thet i not finished but i im funny to programming.

After had an AMIGA1200, but only ued it for music with programs like protracker and bars&pipes pro. And in bliizbasic there wasnt spanish instructions and could not make so much.

Also in windows with darkbasic did make an 3d editor that converts 3d space in basic db code named HED, the henry editor.

And now learn each day with the agk2tutorials and is pure hobby.

regards!
--
edler

AppGameKit forum in Spanish, yet!
EdzUp
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 12:29
well back in '81 I started EdzUp using the humble zx81 I learned coding on that with 1Kb of ram I made procedural universes for my games. Some listing's I sold others I released to magazines.

I've coded on c64, vic20, BBC a and b models, zx spectrums right upto PC's of today.

EdzUp has earned me a nice sideline with utils etc but in 2003 I met my wife and coding slowed dramatically. I now code in my spare time but I still enjoy it. I have my own C++ engine called Ultim but AppGameKit currently fits the bill nicely. Ultim is also on Unity and MonkeyX (the later is now retired).
-EdzUp
Bengismo
6
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Nov 2017
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 12:57
I code C/C++ for my job. Its mainly embedded microcontrollers, Single board computers, music/entertainment systems, lighting, kids interactive units/games etc...

I muck about with AppGameKit on an evening.....to keep me from selling class A drugs or working on street corners.
Pumpkin Software
AGK Developer
10
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Jun 2013
Location: uk
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 14:03
I started programming games in the mid 80,s starting with an amstrad 464, 6128 and then amiga a600 and a1200 before moving onto a windows pc. I have had a few games reviewed in amstrad action and amiga format, still got copies somewhere. I remember writing, and getting a hand written reply from the Oliver twins (codemasters) asking advice on what now is was a simple code question, all this well before I had web.

I used darkbasic (free) version for a while and had a game included on their dvd, so was given a free copy of db which I used for a few years. Gave up coding for a good 10 years then noticed game app popularity at the same time as discovering agk, so started coding again a few years ago, always as a hobby.
AGK v2017.01.09 Tier 1
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 15:43
It was curiosity that started me into games. I feel fortunate to have grown up in the 80s/90s when advancements in games could still wow me. I haven't felt that level of wow-factor in a game in a long time, mostly because graphics have already come so far nothing really comes as shocker anymore because nothing feels impossible. The first time I discovered I could make a graphics scene greater than 320x200 with 16 colors in DOS (640x480x 256k) I was like oh my god this is awesome! Now, someone could say they made a game that's 8k with 64-bit color and I'd probably be like, why? But it was that cool, omg what can I do next feeling that kept me engaged with game development. I branched into software more out of necessity and an ego of I could do that better.

My first time doing any sort of actual game development was with Amiga's SEUCK. Then some friends introduced me to QBasic, where I ran a semi-successful website that managed to be ranked high up on the QB100 webring. (do web rings even exist anymore?) The website would look like absolute crap by today's standards, but keep in mind HTML had only really been around in wide use a few years about that time.

In highschool, I took classes in C++ and Pascal. Pascal I excelled at and become a sort of unofficial teacher's aid. With 35 kids in the classroom and only 34 books, I'm the kid who didn't get a book (due to me being dead last in the alphabet no matter where I am). I asked the teacher if he had other books on pascal, he's like sure but you can't follow along with the rest of the class. I took the book and told him as long as it covers the same material I don't need it to be in the same order of instruction. I studied at home mostly then would help out other students during class. In that particular course, some of our tests had to be hand-written. Yup, write pascal code by hand on a piece of paper, including every stinkin' curly bracket! I believe it was to teach us not to rely on compiler errors to proof-read our programs for us. Btw, we worked on PCs with a cyrix 133 cpu

In college, the primary language at the time was java, but I believe the school has shifted to .NET since then. Bored with typical homework exercises, I asked my teacher about writing a chat program in java. I learn by not doing pointless homework assignments but by programming something functional, something practical. Solving the puzzles along the way is how I learn. He said the task would be quite advanced and beyond in the Java 2 class. Needless to say, he didn't offer much help. I don't recall how long it took me (I barely learned to create a blank applet by that point) but I wrote my chat program. Developed a separate java library to handle AOL's TOC protocol then a client to show it off. And it worked. You could sign into my chat program using your aol login. A lot of the protocol information I was able to find online, but some required reverse engineering and deciphering packets using wireshark. Years later, I ported the network library to C#.NET simply to familiarize myself with the language. (which I believe both languages are still available for download on my website). My only other major java project was an iTunes clone, which I started when it was released for Apple but prior to Windows support. I learned A LOT about gui development by doing that project. Though you couldn't sync an ipod or buy from the store, you could actually browser the store, broadcast and stream over bonjour, listen to shoutcasts, and it supported more playback codecs than the real itunes. Amusingly, my program was even more responsive when browsing a very large library than iTunes. I did begin early work on adding music visuals but never quite got it off the ground. Fourier transforms confused me.

In the middle of all this, I discovered DarkBasic around '99 I think. It was amazing at the time, as an average programmer like myself could make 3D games without learning more complicated C++ and scene graphs and shading techniques etc... DB started to feel a bit dated (mostly due to being stuck on DX9 I'm sure), so I'm glad AppGameKit was created. AppGameKit window apps are also a bit friendlier than trying to do a windowed program with DBP. The only drawback to having something like this available back then was I believe it actually stunted my learning in some areas. With a tool that made things so easy, there's aspects of a professional language I never really learned. You'll never see a company hiring for a DBP developer. So in hindsight, I do wish I took more time to learn C++ and create games from scratch that way.

Oh, as for why do I do this? As a kid, it was just curiosity and I felt it was neat. 15-20 years ago, I decided I wanted to be a programmer and turn a hobby I enjoyed into a living. Unfortunately, thanks to career counselors pushing everyone they know into IT because that's the big money field, the market became flooded with people who really had no true interest in it in the first place. And on top of that, technology has advanced far enough that it's made learning so much easier. So much so, that what I once consider a special skill set no longer feels that special anymore. Still, I'm happy to have learned to program through books and deconstructing existing code before the internet blew up and every answer was only a click away. Before video tutorials on everything imaginable existed. Because in the end, when I figured something out, I didn't just simply know how to do it, I understood why I was doing it. My future focus is on getting into cyber security as career. I did do JSP developement professionally for a short time, but I think for the moment programming will be just a hobby.

And holy crap I wrote a lot. That's almost as long as Raven's posts!
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 16:55 Edited at: 10th Mar 2018 18:41
Wow! Thanks a lot for these detailed posts. I think many of have some things in common as far as the time period we got into this and why. Reading the posts I agree. It was a time of wonder and almost kind of magical in a way.

And I still consider programming and software development including game dev a very special thing. It is like anything else that is available to everyone.

Sure a thousand people can copy a tutorial and all do the same things without a clue why they are pasting that code in but it is the one who doesn't do that and thinks and understands that will come up with something special. Same as just being able to easily make a game is not the same as being able to make a great game.

A lot of people can flip burgers or empty trash cans for a living but it is a rare person who does those things with some style and actually makes it interesting.

--------------

I do think in some ways the whole Indie thing has been ruined by things like Unity and others that allow people to just quickly cobble together nice looking "things" and throw them out on the market. The market is littered with junk now and even when things look good that doesn't mean anything many times other than someone downloaded some free art from the asset store(s) and threw it together to make a barebones thing. But so many people read all of those stories of Flappy Bird and others making mega money that a flood of people poured into this. It really became a true goldrush. At one time a few years back Unity had 4 million registered users. Now surely a large percent won't have done anything but still even throwing out 80% that leaves around 800,000 people who probably made something with it. And out of those say 20% about 160,000 probably threw their very first thing out on an app store and this continues to happen.

It definitely has impacted things greatly. It has made it so now the top 5% of games make maybe 95% of all of the money and the remaining 95% of games get the remaining 5% of the money. There is not different classes in a sense of making a terrible game, a bad game. a decent game, a good game, a great game and an exceptional game with money generated accordingly. You either make an exceptional game and do very well or you can make next to nothing. Kind of all or nothing. And I don't like it at all but is the way it is. I do think it can certainly be solved though. That was my business idea in 2016 to build up a decent income from making solid good games. I'm just saying it is a lot harder than it should be now due to the markets being so flooded because everyone and their brother, aunt, uncle, etc are making things and throwing them out there.

The good thing is I think this goldrush phase is over. I think many of these people have moved on to chasing the next big moneymaking thing probably buying cryptocurrencies. Which is good IMO. Good riddance don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out. Yes that may sound harsh but I never liked all these people pouring into game dev only to try to strike it rich with no passion no love for gaming or the art of game dev itself.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Dybing
12
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 12th Sep 2011
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 19:04
Got my start programming on the ZX Spectrum 48k. Later Amiga 500, where I found AMOS a great way to get things done fast. At university I got introduced to Modula 2, C/C++ and the ever popular SQL. I fell in love with Modula 2 and even got a compiler for it on my then Amiga 4000. C/C++ at the time was workable, but these days my use of it is restricted to Arduino tinkering. As for SQL, well, let's just say that relational databases are still all the rage, though not very exciting

At work I do C# and Go backend/server API apps - and AppGameKit frontends/clients. All three are environments and languages I really like working with - especially Go. And being a server/backend guy, AppGameKit is just perfect for me. No need to learn some overcomplicated web-stack in order to do front-end. So I soon suggested using AppGameKit at work for our various side-projects developed in-house. Main reason being speed of development, the mostly hassle-free and easy cross-platform ability and not having to worry too much about framework/language dependencies. What we do are educational games and apps focused around teaching sign-language to people with speech/hearing disability and/or slow development of oral language. We're releasing our suite of apps before summer, aiming at late April or early May. In Norwegian. Other languages will follow quite fast after that as we find sign-language teachers for other languages and countries.

Long since decided against making games for the general masses. As GarBenjamin mentioned in the post above, that marked is fierce and flooded. And I like to pay rent, eat well and have the occasional beer But there are good money (and grants...) in making niche apps that do something useful.
Sph!nx
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Dec 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posted: 10th Mar 2018 22:46 Edited at: 10th Mar 2018 22:47
I started modding games in my early teens and by expanding my skills, brought me into the arena of amateur/indie scene. It's still just a hobby that one day might evolve into something more.
Regards Sph!nx
PSY
Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jul 2016
Location: Laniakea Supercluster
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 02:10
I've always loved to create apps/games which are used/played by other guys all around the world
I tried all kinds of different languages. Darkbasic, Blitzbasic and AppGameKit I liked most, though

I played A LOT on the C64, Atari 800XL, Amiga. Now I play mostly on Windows.

The master plan is to develop games with a couple of friends, and to make a living from it


PSY LABS Games
Coders don't die, they just gosub without return
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 03:40
I see quite a few of us had Amigas.
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
hoyoyo80
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th May 2016
Location:
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 11:11 Edited at: 11th Mar 2018 11:50
I really want to turn it into full time job but im not a good coder although i have some list of game ideas. Game coding require ideas, so it lead me to play older game ranging from nes,gba to psp.
Honestly, today game become really realistic but lack of fun factor. Wasted my money on steam.

Edit; As i am thinking on going full time on game coding, pls add my question to this topic.

As we all growth into a expert/great coder, what hinder any of u to come out with a full scale commercial project?
Dybing
12
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 12th Sep 2011
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 14:20
> what hinder any of u to come out with a full scale commercial project?

Releasing a game - or any software really - isn't programming. Which is what we programmers love to do. Releasing a game or app is project managing with all that entails. Including but not limited to looking for funding opportunities, keeping track of the finances, doing public relations with press, dealing with and supporting users. So from doing programming 4-6 hours a day and spending a couple of hours dealing with everything else, your suddenly doing everything else for 4-6 hours a day and maybe squeeze in a couple of hours of programming...

So the lone programmer releasing a successful game is about as rare as hens teeth. Small teams on the other hand, where at least one have full time focus on taking care of business is a more realistic set-up. That leaves programmers to program and artists to do graphics and sound rather than multitasking doing chores that rubs us the wrong way.

Best regards from a professional meeting attendee and coffee-drinker - aka development and operations manager who get to program maybe three days a week. Before lunch.
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 18:34 Edited at: 11th Mar 2018 20:47
> what hinder any of u to come out with a full scale commercial project?

Like Dybing said above... limited time is a big factor for most solo developers. It can and is done of course over a period of many years.

One example is the developer of Stardew Valley who lived with his girlfriend and had a part-time job for the 4 years he spent 10 hours per day 7 days per week creating the game. That's over 14,000 hours of time put into the project.

Another example is the developer of Axiom Verge who had a full-time job and worked on his personal game project nights and weekends for 5 years. Then the 6th year due to receiving funding from Sony he switched to working part-time at his job and full-time on his game project and then finally last 6 months quit his job entirely and worked all time on his own project to wrap it up for release.

You said full scale... for a solo developer these games are very full scale game projects.

For me personally... I have absolutely no desire to spend 4 to 6 years or more pouring all of my free time into working on a single game. Honestly, it seems crazy to me because that is the only time I can actually be living since the rest of the time is either stuck at work or sleeping.

My interest in doing Indie is in games scoped to what I think are reasonable for a part-time solo developer. Trying to build some epic masterpiece I think is a bad idea. Instead of laboring for years to have one chance at success to me it makes more sense during that same period of time to have a dozen or more chances of success. Any one game you make is one chance. One ticket in a sense. And by starting small and releasing and continually iterating and developing your framework and reusing art content where possible you can build up to a bigger game over time in a natural way while still having a trail of released games leading up to that point. And each of those games (if good) have a chance of being a success in their own right.

Here are a few examples of games that are scoped to what I think is reasonable for a part-time solo developer to tackle:

Bit Blaster XL


Cube Destroyer


ORCS


Games like the following would be very impressive for a part-time solo developer while still being somewhat in the realm of reason. These scopes would be great targets to work up to over time:

Kero Blaster


Still Not Dead


On the other hand... if you enjoy spending all of your free time working on game development and you have no desire to make a living from it then spend as much time as you want on as huge of a game project as you want to. If it is all just a hobby with no need to make it a sound business model then it does not matter how much time & money you spend on making the game.

HA! THAT WAS A LOT WASN'T IT? Don't mind me this is just a subject I have thought about and discussed many time over the years so my views are pretty clear on it for me.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Lucas Tiridath
AGK Developer
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2008
Location: Kings Langley, UK
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 21:24
hoyoyo80 wrote: "As we all growth into a expert/great coder"

Yeah... growing into a great coder... That's definitely what I'm doing... In fact I'm pretty sure the longer I spend coding, the more I realise I have no idea what I'm doing

hoyoyo80 wrote: "what hinder any of u to come out with a full scale commercial project?"

I'm in total agreement with GarBenjamin on this; time is easily the biggest problem. Gar has already mentioned the incredibly long development cycles of games like Stardew Valley, and of course it makes sense. When you think about the number of person hours that go into big AAA games (200 devs * 40 hr/week * 48 week/yr * 2.5 yrs = 960,000 person-hours), it's really impressive that a game like Stardew Valley could even be made in just 14,000 hours. Given the practical limitations on the time available to just one developer, I feel like it puts even more demands on innovation. As an indie, I really can't compete with other games on any axis other than just coming up with something incredibly original that no one else has thought to do, and that's a difficult thing with so many games coming out every single day.

GarBenjamin wrote: "For me personally... I have absolutely no desire to spend 4 to 6 years or more pouring all of my free time into working on a single game."

I'd particularly like to follow up on this point, as I think it's really important. For me, this goes beyond even a lifestyle choice or quality of life issue. I tried working all my free hours on a game for about a year alongside my full time job, and my experience was that not only was progress painfully slow, but that I had to sacrifice the very things that give me inspiration to work on my own game. For example when I play great games, or watch great movies, or play board games with friends, or tinker with prototypes, or read books, or visit museums, these are the times when I gain inspiration for my own games and ideas. But to work on my own game, whilst holding down a job, I couldn't do any of these things, and so my inspiration really died out. And then when I stopped, I got my inspiration back, but was no longer working on my game. Therefore for me at least, I feel that going indie would really mean doing it full time, which would require a decent financial investment. For the time being, I'm happy with my current work and content to just tinker with side projects, knowing that they probably won't go anywhere, but are fun to work on. I try to save though, so that one day, maybe I'll have enough to go indie and work on my games full time.
hoyoyo80
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th May 2016
Location:
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 22:49 Edited at: 11th Mar 2018 22:52
I expected it is not as easy as i thought but full scale is really dont portray what i mean.I mean something with stages(levels), maybe player/enemy deep stats and not a one screen balloon tapping highscore games alike, and also not FarCry or FinalFantasy.Sorry

I thought as a solo coder there might be two obstacles:

1.i might be a good programmer but i dont have graphic skills
2.i come from graphic side and coding is hard!

I havent mention music and soundfx, have i? But your point it is more than that.

Thanks for the input, for now im just dreaming to become full time...not yet...hahaha
GaborD
6
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Dec 2017
Location:
Posted: 11th Mar 2018 23:43
I agree on the needed time being the biggest issue for lonewolves.
With so many games being released and many experienced teams pushing into the indie market, quality and scope demands have been noticeably rising.
Also, with the tech being so easily available, easy to use and powerful nowadays, differentiating yourself is getting harder. Anyone can push some download buttons and produce something that looks kinda OK. You have to put in the effort to become reasonably good in several areas to rise above this vast ocean.
This puts lonewolf devs in a hard spot and making a return on the invested time is not guaranteed at all. Just putting it on Steam doesn't mean much anymore (that actually used to be different). You are essentially investing months of your life to get a lottery ticket. Well, at least it's exciting?

Personally, I switched to contract work a few years ago, the change has served me really well. Yes, it's less glamorous and means I have to sometimes work on weird promotional games and whatnot, but it pays really well (which means tons of free time for own fun gamedev experiments that don't necessarily need to be commercially viable and thus are more free&fun) and I still get to make games for a living.
And if one of the experiments somehow turns out to be sellable, it's like a bonus level full of pickups.

As for starting out, after a lot of C64 and Amiga shenanigans as a youngin' I became active in the GameStudio community in the 90s while studying (design, which coincidentally comes in very handy for gamedev), then switched to Blitz3D. Made some small B3D games for fun in my free time and one of the games got picked up by Idigicon and made me a really nice sum, so that kinda sealed the deal for what I wanted to focus on right there.
Was a rough ride at times (had to work some pixelpusher jobs in design agencies now and then) but gamedev was always my main thing. Never regretted going for it and in the end it worked out fine.
In my opinion fun time is the most important currency, and making games is as fun as it gets.
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 12th Mar 2018 00:03 Edited at: 12th Mar 2018 02:15
@hoyoyo80 if being a full-time Indie Game Developer for your living is your dream certainly don't change that. The message in my post is about keeping expectations realistic and using a strategy of growth over time to reduce risk.

Say you start out with single screen game swiping fruit or any of the other countless possibilities. Nothing wrong with that at all. A person has to start somewhere and it makes far more sense IMO to start here than it does to start with a huge game project.

So you make that game and then you make another game a little more ambitious that lets you use a lot of what you created for the first game and yet requires you to add more functionality to upgrade your personal framework, patterns and workflows. And just keep doing that. Every game.

For example, if you are really wanting to create an epic 2D scrolling platform game with a large world and dozens of areas/stages then start with a single screen 2D platform game. This way you can knock out game state management, playerstate management, enemies, collectibles, play mechanics etc. This becomes your base.

Something like this for example only without 8-bit / 16-bit graphics options and co-op mode. I mean sure you can do those but the point is they don't need to be in this first game.

Abduction Bit


Next game build on the first game... use all of the stuff you created to complete that first game and add just the new stuff absolutely needed... to create a platformer with several horizontally scrolling levels. Next game have both horizontal and vertical scrolling levels. And so on. The key concept here is you are making games... completing games (and they can even be fantastic highly popular games... size of a game tells nothing about how good it is)... and in the process you are iteratively upgrading your personal framework, workflows, skills always moving forward toward the day when you make the most epic 2D platform game that has ever been created. This is not fantasy. It is a natural evolution process that leads to that point at least as far as having the framework, workflows and skills required to make such a game.

That's just a suggested way to go. Of course , any person can do whatever they want. If I get the fire again to make an Indie game for Steam this is the process I will follow. Knock out some tiny games first evolving up to it.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 12th Mar 2018 01:17
Quote: "One example is the developer of Stardew Valley who lived with his girlfriend and had a part-time job for the 4 years he spent 10 hours per day 7 days per week creating the game. "

That game looks well done but incredibly boring.


I think I spend more time figuring out what to do next and not so much actual programming. I kind of make things up as I go rather than building an actual plan of everything in the game. If I made a flow chart and planned at the beginning what every little thing in the game does, then I bet I could work faster.
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 12th Mar 2018 02:41 Edited at: 12th Mar 2018 02:58
Phaelax: That game looks well done but incredibly boring.

Ha ha! I like the pixel art but it's not a game I was tempted to buy. I just don't think it is my cup of tea so to speak. Not being the kind of game I generally play boring is kind of how I see it too but I've read comments from gamers on it who describe it as anything but. A lot to do. A lot you can do. It was a huge success one of, and possibly the, most successful Indie efforts. It sold over 2 million copies on Steam. Last I read the developer made over $30 million from it. In fact, at one point I remember reading it had sold more copies in 2016 on Steam than Call of Duty during the same time.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Lucas Tiridath
AGK Developer
15
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2008
Location: Kings Langley, UK
Posted: 12th Mar 2018 08:00 Edited at: 12th Mar 2018 08:02
hoyoyo80 wrote: "Thanks for the input, for now im just dreaming to become full time"

Yes please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying your dream is impossible. Far from it! There is this great talk from GDC by a self described "no hit wonder", where he talks about keeping an indie game studio alive without a single hit game. Really inspiring, at least for me. (btw how do you embed Youtube videos? I couldn't get it to work..)

hoyoyo80 wrote: "I thought as a solo coder there might be two obstacles:

1.i might be a good programmer but i dont have graphic skills
2.i come from graphic side and coding is hard!"

I'm kind of on the other side of this to you, as a programmer with no art skills, but I've actually found it to be less of an obstacle than you might think. So long as you're very self aware of your own strengths, I think you can design your game around your weaknesses. If you're a coder like me without art skills, you can just make a game with a focus on mechanics and very simple graphics. If you're a talented artist with less programming experience, then you can go the other way and make a really beautiful game but with simpler mechanics. Even if you were super talented at all aspects of gamedev, you probably wouldn't have time to make a game that was brilliant in all areas anyway!

@GaborD
Congrats on making it as a freelancer. That's a bold move to have made, and I'm really glad to hear it has worked well for you! You're keeping the dream alive for all of us
Pfaber1
6
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Jan 2018
Location: England
Posted: 15th Mar 2018 08:31
I'm a hobbyist and write my games for fun. I would love to do this for a living and have released a few games for free to test the water. Think I've got to up my game a bit and wait until I produce something really good then charge for it. I consider myself to be a freelance unemployed Indie developer in the making.
Cybermind
Valued Member
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posted: 15th Mar 2018 11:12
I didn't get much sleep last night, so no development today :-( I am trying to find testers for my game anyway as I need to test some online play features.

@Lucas Tiridath
Quote: "btw how do you embed Youtube videos? I couldn't get it to work.."

You remove the first part of the link when pressing the Video->YouTube and adding the rest of the link, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT9wT7zLSnU would become gT9wT7zLSnU, so only the "code" at the end.

@ hoyoyo80
Quote: "and not a one screen balloon tapping highscore games alike, and also not FarCry or FinalFantasy."

My main project is a Final Fantasy like JRPG that is sleeping because I focus on my side-project right now :-P I made a JRPG engine with all the editors needed. At first, I thought it would be a quick project, how hard can it be, I was soooo inexperienced... And learned my lesson.

As a kid, when I learned that, that blue start screen on the C64 was actually a programming screen where you could program your own games, I got interested, very! I learned a little BASIC and started with a small text adventure. I never got any good, though. I tried SEUCK, I wasn't any good there either. But I got a desire to create games and thought about game designs all the time. I got an Amiga, I still invented game designs in my head but I couldn't figure out Easy Amos (I sucked, I still do). I got a PC, I still wanted to create games, my life took some wrong turns, I got a hold on Klik & Play, I started to make small prototypes. I realized video games and games design is my life and what I wanted to do, so I put my life back on the right path and started becoming serious about chasing my dream of making games. I got DarkBASIC, I learned something. I got DarkBASIC Professional, I became better, and most importantly, I started creating stuff that was playable, but I, of course, kept abanding my projects. At some point, I decided to follow through and started making a multiplayer chess board that would check for illegal moves, it worked and we played it on my server until a bug appeared, this was just for fun and learning anyway. I started on my JRPG, which is in a state where most of the engine is done and work on the world has begun. It is on hiatus right now while I giving Pixel Killers - The Showdown my full attention. I moved to AppGameKit and really love it, now most of my things get made with AppGameKit, it is so easy and fast. I am on social welfare because I can't participate in the regular workforce anymore, but I can sit at my PC and program and design all day, so I do that, and I hope that I can become more professional someday, even though I suck. I program everything myself, I sometimes do the art if I can get it right for the project in question, if not, I hire a freelancer to improve the graphics when I can afford it. I do some chip-tunes like music myself, and buy the rights to some music from an artist when needed. I buy cheap SFX on asset stores, and sometimes make 8bit-like SFX myself. My released game got really great responses from the testers, but I fear they are just being nice to me. I would really like some outsiders to play Pixel Killers - The Showdown and give me some feedback. I am paying off my debts with the limited funds I have, I will be done this year if all goes well, then I have a little more funds to invest in my projects, I am really looking forward to that. I will never stop making games! This is what kept me alive during the hardest period of my life. This is what keeps me going. I might never get any kind of success, but I will keep going. My greatest passion is video-games <3
13/0
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 15th Mar 2018 15:20 Edited at: 15th Mar 2018 15:42
It has been awesome reading these replies. Thanks for all of you participating! It looks like most of us share a similar background having the 8-bit computers long ago.

@Cybermind ha ha. I get what you are saying. Long ago when I was a teen working on my game experiments I had an obsession with being a game programmer. That is actually what got me interested in programming to begin with.

Although I am not in game dev for my career much of what I learned through self-study has helped me to excel in my career as a software developer. I spend my days working primarily with C#.Net, SQL Server, TCP/IP and even VB 6 developing desktop client server db applications, Windows services and interfaces to 3rd party products. Game dev is a passion done in free time after hours here and there.

I've thought a few times starting a tiny game dev business would be a good second income one day when I retire. With all day and night free I would probably have no problem putting 4 to 6 hours on game dev every day.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Cybermind
Valued Member
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posted: 15th Mar 2018 19:12
Quote: "It has been awesome reading these replies."

Yes, I also enjoyed reading all these posts This morning I thought I would get no work done today, so I read this thread and relaxed a bit. Now, it is 8 PM here and I am still working, I have mostly copy/pasted and edited the host code from my game client to make a separate dedicated server app that can run on my Raspberry Pi. I am excited to see if it will work
13/0
Richard_6
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Feb 2017
Location:
Posted: 16th Mar 2018 14:35 Edited at: 16th Mar 2018 14:36
I had an Apple IIe when I was a kid and the lack of multimedia hardware and the limited basic couldn’t allow me to create real games. At that time, you’d have to learn assembly to make anything serious (and I honestly couldn’t understand that thing). I ended up working with a lot of things in my life and programming and graphics were always there. I’ve learn different type of scripting languages, some VB and lastly SQL. Right now, I’m an entrepreneur on the education business but I still have that feeling about creating games and making something cool (you guys know that feeling don’t you)? I'm glad to be part of this great community! Cheers!
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 20th Mar 2018 12:24
Quote: "I had an Apple IIe when I was a kid"

That's what my grade school had. We could play math blaster and oregon trail. I don't think it was until 1993 when I went off to middle school that they finally upgraded from 5.25" floppies to cd-roms, and I was jealous.
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
RickV
TGC Development Director
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 23rd Mar 2018 13:53 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2018 13:57
Hi, I've enjoyed reading this thread so will contribute my story.

I was mid way through secondary school struggling to see what I'd be doing in later life and not getting the best grades. The school had two computers, some relics that had green screens and little much else going for them. I started to see adverts in the newspaper colour magazines, computer kits and the ZX80, build your own computer for £100. I never thought I could build my own so it didn't interest me enough. The following year the ZX81 was announced, a computer in your home for £100! That was crazy at the time, only scientists worked on computers! I stupidly decided I was not clever enough to take computer studies for my subject choices and so had learn it all by myself. I remember getting a book from the library on BASIC. I had no computer at the time and tried my best to read up about it. Finally I got my ZX81 and with the help of some tape games and magazines that were printing code you could type in I started to learn how to code this 1K beast! We only had one TV in the house, so I had to negotiate TV time to use my computer. Later on I got the 16K ram pack which meant more could be coded and better tape games purchased. 3D Monster Maze was brilliant, probably the best game for ZX81.

My parents helped me buy an Atari 400 next (hire purchase payments). I got it with Star Raiders - I felt like I was in Star Wars playing that game. I coded more Basic and began to learn machine code (6502) - I felt a real sense of achievement and it boosted my belief in what I could do. I left school to work for Cascade Games (50 games on one cassette - a BIG tape!) Then I went to York Technical College and from there I jumped over the Pennines to work for a company called Database Software. I was initially employed to work on Mini Office for the Atari. After that project I ended up as Product Manager for STOS for the ST. Naturally AMOS was next and the Klik & Play and Corel Click & Create. I spent 15 years with the company (now named Europress Software), working on various products such as Rally Championship and Fun School.

When I was at Europress we interviewed a young guy who was passionate about making his own games. We employed him, a Mr Lee Bamber! Europress sold out and we all went to pastures new. I had been away in Chester working with Magnetic Fields for two years. I got back in touch with Lee and he'd started Dark Basic. I offered to join him and our long term business partnership was born. Dark Basic Software Ltd became The Game Creators Ltd and we have since made numerous products with our dedicated team members. I'm still enjoying the ride and hope that we can bring more features your way as we go.

Rick
Development Director
TGC Team
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 23rd Mar 2018 15:47
I had no idea you guys knew each other before DB was born. So do you feel smart enough now to own a computer? :p
Tiled TMX Importer V.2
XML Parser V.2
Base64 Encoder/Decoder
Purple Token - Free online hi-score database
Legend of Zelda

"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended." - Linus Torvalds
GarBenjamin
AGK Developer
7
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2016
Location: USA
Posted: 23rd Mar 2018 16:20 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2018 16:20
Thanks Richard, RickV (was a nice surprise to see you share your story too) and everyone else for participating. I've really enjoyed reading these and it helps us all to get to know each other a little better as well.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-04-25 16:43:36
Your offset time is: 2024-04-25 16:43:36