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Geek Culture / Religion (Satanism for me) *NO PRERSONAL ATTACKS HERE*

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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 13:44
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Have there been any LDS people yet? (Mormons as we are better known) Just to start off. Here is something all you Christians can relate to: James 1:5 . Look it up and see.

The republicans and democrats have finally agreed on a bumper sticker: "Run Hillary Run" (only democrats put it on the back however)
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:01
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I have a few LDS friends.

The thing that people will not appreciate about James 1:5 is that there is no fact behind it. From what I've read throughout this thread is that people are arguing over what is the truth, what religion is the truth.

Here's my take. Fact of the matter is religion is something created by humans to explain creation, or their existence, or what happens after they die, and to set a code by which to behave, and probably some other reasons I've forgotten to mention. Religion is not about "which one is right". Religion is about joining a group of people who share your beliefs and putting a little faith into what you think could be right. I know I've mentioned this before. But it's 99.9^9%(not accurate, but it's to get a point across) sure that you will not discover "the truth" until you are pushing up daisies. until then some of us like to invest in faith. Why? We, too, are interested in the truth but we've found something we believe that will be pretty close to the truth and have decided to stick it out.

Religious debates seem pointless to me, we're all arguing that our faith is fact, and that's pretty messed up logic.
What would be more enlightening instead of debate would be informing.

ie:
BearCDP: Hi, I'm Catholic.
Joe: Hi, I'm LDS. Why do you choose to be Catholic, Bear?
BearCDP Because <yattayattayatta>. Why do you choose to be LDS?
IanM: Hi guys, I (sorry I don't know IanM). Because <yattayattayatta>.
Joe: That's interesting. I like the LDS religion because <yattayattayatta>.

Maybe we're already doing that. It just seems a little hostile.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:05
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My point exactly we're all too stupid to know the truth. But, THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:14
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I'm not saying join the LDS chuch, I'm just trying to say in a way that most of ud can relate to that to determine truth, it is not for us to say, but God. Who else would know truth better than him? The scripture was my first post, and it was to say that you CAN talk to God and ask him about the truth. As long as you are sincere and have an open heart and mind, answers can be found. It probably won't be a big booming voice from heaven, but then, it's not called a "still, small voice" for nothing.

The republicans and democrats have finally agreed on a bumper sticker: "Run Hillary Run" (only democrats put it on the back however)
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Night Giant
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:20 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 14:35
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i'm an ordained minister of the universal life church. i think everyone should take a course in mythology studies. it really puts everything in perspective and makes you think about human belief as a whole and how all the different religions are connected (and you would be shocked at how similar stories, beliefs and religions from opposite sides of the globe are).

according to Dante Alighieri, mortals were never meant to know the truth, and may only know such upon death. I believe Milton also expressed this.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net.
no: website for progs yet.
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:54
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Quote: "according to Dante Alighieri, mortals were never meant to know the truth, and may only know such upon death. I believe Milton also expressed this."


That's what I'm trying to get across.

I was reading Edith Hamilton's Mythology since 9th grade honors english requires it over the summer I read a lot of these and could connect them to bible stories.

At least we're all of a somewhat similar mind .

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Jimmy
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 15:22
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Sup Joe. I am LDS as well as Darwin, he's posted on this thread a few times.

That is a good scripture for this discussion, but most of these guys are too proud to accept God as a source of truth. They believe in the power of their own minds and the minds of guys named Dante

Searching for truth, but not looking in the right places. It's a bloomin onion shame.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 15:26
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Quote: "What's your point? every religion is different from every other religion.
You never took the time to study Buddhism so how can you say it's false?
It's very different from Christianity (AND IT'S NOT THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED ALL OTHER RELIGIONS!!)
And i'm sure you didn't study Islam either, but nevertheless you think it's a "bad" religion."


Every religion shares similarities.
All of them are BASICALLY the same~_~. NOT exactly.

WWSD?
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 15:31
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@Jimmy: Maybe if your God would say something, more people would beLIEve in him

WWSD?
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Night Giant
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 16:01
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Quote: "but most of these guys are too proud to accept God as a source of truth. They believe in the power of their own minds and the minds of guys named Dante "


what? have you ever read the divine comedy? one of the major themes is that only god knows the truth, thus he is the source of truth. dante would agree with you in that regard i think.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net.
no: website for progs yet.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 16:16
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@Night Giant: The Divine Comedy WAS funny^-^

WWSD?
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IanM
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:01
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@Jimmy,

You do make me laugh sometimes

Quote: "too proud to accept God as a source of truth"


Huh? Where did pride come into it?

The truth that you know just doesn't match the truth passed out by thousands of other religions (counting all denominations of all religions). Taking one person from each group, if you stated a set of facts related to your regligious beliefs, you would probably get an objection to each and every one from someone in that group.

I may be reading extra into what you have written, so bear with me on this if I have ...

You also seem to imply that it takes a strong an ongoing effort to not believe in a God or a religion - to fight against the 'Truth'. This is not so. In fact I would probably say that *for me* it will take a very strong effort to believe in something that has no proof to back it up.

I'm not deliberately being ignorant, rebellious or stubborn about this - I'm just being me. I want to know, but all anyone can give me is a 'this is what I think', and the only way they can back it up is to point to a proof that I don't consider to be proof.

@Bear Crazy Donut Productions,

I would probably be saying 'Hi guys, which one of you are right?'. Then I'd duck out before the fighting starts

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Jimmy
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 02:51
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Well Ian, what stops most people from believing in something they don't have absolute proof of? I'd say pride. Don't want to be wrong in the end and come off looking like an idiot.

And I was actually implying the opposite. I even said it before, that it takes more guts to believe in something on faith

Nobody here has absolute proof FOR you. That's something you find for yourself and it all depends on what you're willing to lay on the line to find it.


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IanM
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 03:55
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Proof - I wasn't asking for it - It's up to me to find it in my own way.

That's kinda my point too. There is always someone who finds that it's their obligation to convert you to their way of thinking, and *that* is when I want proof.

I still don't go for the pride thing either. Or that having belief in a religion needs more guts. I would think it would take more guts to face the world *without* some all-knowing being giving you the answers

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 04:04
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It's easier to believe in fact, because.....it's....right there......in front of you, all the proof you'll ever need. Though it's difficult to have faith, it sometimes comes easier to others (I'm not talking about the gullibles ones ) and you could also say it's harder not to have a religion. Sometimes when you're not part of somebody's religion they look at you differently, which isn't always good, not saying it always happens, but it's human nature.
IanM also has a point, no doubt as Christians we feel secure because we believe there's this huge dude upstairs that's doing favors for us, and other religions feel the same way about deities that they believe in.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 04:10
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Strong effort, more guts, same thing

Anyway, that's just what I'm saying. Nobody has proof and they shouldn't claim to. They can show you evidence, state their beliefs and why they feel that way. If you don't believe it, then so be it, but it's unfair to expect absolute proof of something from someone who is not supposed to have that proof as it would defeat the purpose of faith altogether.

Did that make sense?


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Night Giant
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 05:58
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Quote: "but it's unfair to expect absolute proof of something from someone who is not supposed to have that proof as it would defeat the purpose of faith altogether. "


wow, a little confusing at first but fantastically put, lol.

and i hope you were joking about the divine comedy lord ozzum.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net.
no: website for progs yet.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 07:26
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@Night Giant: It was

WWSD?
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 09:20
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On the Subject of Christianity:

If your God ever speaks to me, I'll convertOr if the Book of Revelations start happening

WWSD?
Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad who's power is Satan. He'll give you give you 666. There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer sad Satan.
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Tomy
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 09:41
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Quote: "Every religion shares similarities.
All of them are BASICALLY the same~_~. NOT exactly.
"


That's exactly my point.
If you care about details every religion is different from any other religion.
But only if you concentrate on similarities you can tolerate each other.
Buddhists for example believe that not the belief is important.
The way you live the religion, the way you act; what you do is important.
They believe that "god" can only act through the humans. They believe the more good things you do the more you can diminish your karma (right term? (i just wrote the German term)) and the more you become one with god. The highest point is reached when you completely dimished your karma and don't have to return to the earth again.
This means you don't have to believe in Buddha to dimish your karma, you only have to do good things on earth and learn to respect and love your largest enemy.

And if you say "my religion is different from any other religion because of this and this."
you don't tolerate other religions.
I see many ppl arguing about why their right and why the other one is false... though i think they forget that it's really not important whether you're right or wrong, religion is just your personal path to orientate yourself in order to live a good life. It doesn't matter what you believe in, it just gotta be right for yourself.

But if you say "i come in heaven for free, i just have to believe in Jesus!"
you're closing your eyes b4 the truth.
I cannot believe that there's such an ass of a god who would damn Dalai Lama for eternety just because he has chosen the "wrong religion".
He was a brilliant person who fought for human rights in Tibet and i'm sure he did more for humanity, than most of you ever did in your life, though nevertheless he'll come to hell?
If everyone would think like that, earth wouldn't exist anymore.


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 16:46
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That's figurative language, an artistic way of spelling words wrong.

If you want God to talk to you.....why don't you listen?
It's not blatanly obvious, you're not going to get hit with a lightning bolt or see a bright light part in the clouds (I'm not talking about the sun).

Here's a couple of examples of God acting in people's lives, extreme examples:

A diligently Jewish woman in a Nazi concentration camp was selected to go into the gas chamber. They huddled in their for half an hour, finally the soldier yelled at them to get out, there was a gas leak and if they used the gas system it would spread all over the camp. She was never selected again.

A guy I know was driving to pick up his sister from her high school cheer class or something and as he drove the car down the hill (this was in Schenectady, NY in the Winter) to get to the main road from their house his car started spinning since the road was coated in ice. His car started sliding sideways down the hill he passed the main turn ins to the various neighborhoods and he could see below that it was heavy traffic since it was around 4 or 5 o'clock that afternoon, chances were he'd smash into some semi and be crushed to death or paralyzed from the neck down. He let go of the brakes, steering wheel, and gas pedal at that point since they were doing no good. But, right as he got to the bottom a gap opened up in traffic so he gunned it and made it.

You could call it luck, but is luck just another name for divine intervention?
You could say it is the work of some other supernatural being other than God. God is a concept. His name could be Billy-Bob Thornton for all we know. God is a metaphor representing the creator of the worldand its creatures, the maintainer of the world and its creatures, and the physics programmer for theuniverse.cpp.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 17:23
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Quote: "Here's a couple of examples of God acting in people's lives, extreme examples:"


No, those examples that you pointed out have nothing to do with God or Luck, or divine intervention at all. The reason the Gas chamber had a gas leak was probrably to the germans not maintaining it properly, or any other reasons.

Same goes for the break in traffic. The break could have been caused by a stop light, some one driving slow, etc etc...

Just because a person survies unlikly odds does not mean the reason for thier survival is due to god.

Amist the Blue Skies...
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 17:42
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Quote: "No, those examples that you pointed out have nothing to do with God or Luck, or divine intervention at all. The reason the Gas chamber had a gas leak was probrably to the germans not maintaining it properly, or any other reasons."


Well of course it was the soldiers' fault it was broken. The fact of the matter is God let her survive for a purpose. Could be that her purpose was to make that video she appeared in where she told everybody that, then was part of an inspiration for Steven Spielberg to make Schindler's List which then probably changed at least a few people's lives for the better.



Quote: "Same goes for the break in traffic. The break could have been caused by a stop light, some one driving slow, etc etc..."


Of course. It's not like God reaches down from the clouds and parts the traffic just like the Red Sea, the guy this happened to isn't dead yet, so he's bound to serve some purpose.

If you believe in fate, think of it this way: God planned fate.

God is not going to appear on Earth looking like Zeus or something like that(makes sense... the last time he did that he got nailed to a cross ).


That's the reason for my perspective on evolution. I think evolution questions not who made us what we are now, but how we came to be what we are now, regardless of who is responsible for it.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 03:39 Edited at: 25th Jul 2004 03:43
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Quote: " The fact of the matter is God let her survive for a purpose. "


What about the other 6 million jews? I guess they were just useless then?

Quote: "If you believe in fate, think of it this way: God planned fate"


While I do belive in fate, I do not belive in it the same way you do (ie ALL events in time serve a greater purpose).

Maybe the 6 million other jewish people where not useless. On second, maybe thier deaths just contributed to a senerio of human oppression so that when this woman escapes the gas chambers she could inspire a movie.

This is the problem with God coming down to inteverne. Why would god pick and choose the people he wishes to save while letting so many others suffer, be tortured, and die. If god really wants to inspire us, why would he choose such a horrifc setting to place the story?

if God is all powerful, all knowing, and Omni-benevolent, God will be able to create the universe to his liking, and everything goes according to his plan.

God could have planned the entire timeline of the universe already. If this is true, that means he planned entirley good events as well as all the bad events. This duality in god's attitude makes him seem to be an Amoral being (one whos actions are not intended for good or evil)instead of a Moral one.

------------------------

You can't just say "the guy this happened to isn't dead yet, so he's bound to serve some purpose". You can infer from this statement that Osama BIn laden must serve a purpose since he isn't dead yet (the americans should have captured of killed him already, but somehow he keeps evading them). Or what about the murders, rapist, theives that still exist?

----------------------

The truth is that these events may be amazing and cause people to think some super-natural being helped situations out, but in reality they are nothing more then chance encouters.

And the fact that this guys is still alive proves nothing about God intentions, or even the fact that god planned the events or intevened.

Amist the Blue Skies...
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 06:19
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@ABomb: Nice post

Quote: "You could call it luck, but is luck just another name for divine intervention?"

No, no it's not

WWSD?
Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad who's power is Satan. He'll give you give you 666. There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer sad Satan.
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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 07:58
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As for a belief in a diety or higher being, look at the natural world around you. It is said, "All things denote that there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon it,yea, and its motion, yea, and aloe all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a supreme being."

As for the wickedness of the world, consider this, without wickedness there can't be happiness. God wants us to be happy. How can we know happiness, though, if we don't know sadness? What would rightousness be without evil? Without bad there wouldn't be good. I'm not saying this justifies you being evil, though. I also believe that we were sent to this earth to be tested. Why would we be here just so that we could die? Why would there be reason of heaven or hell. Life is a test. But what kind of test would it be without trials? Things happen, but no matter how bad they are, you must be strong. Choose the right and live to be the best person you can be.

I realize that to you who refuse tto believe in God, this means nothing. But I pray that this will help someone out there.

The republicans and democrats have finally agreed on a bumper sticker: "Run Hillary Run" (only democrats put it on the back however)
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Manticore Night
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IMHO, YOUR WRONG(j/k). I think we're here to reproduce and die, no more, no less. But Joe's sig is funny.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

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BearCDPOLD
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Reproduce and die? Where's the fun in that? I want to be able to reproduce after I die.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 09:42
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Maybe death is feels like your reproducing for eternity.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

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BearCDPOLD
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Oh man...that would be nuts.
Y'know what might be more interesting than a religious debate? A thread where everybody describes what they want to happen to them after they die, or something they think might happen after they die. Not like "going to heaven/hell/dirt", but original, creative, ignorant stuff that has no grounds whatsoever.

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Ilya
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 10:25
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Quote: "God is not going to appear on Earth looking like Zeus or something like that(makes sense... the last time he did that he got nailed to a cross )."

Jesus was nailed to a cross.

-Ilya
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Manticore Night
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@Bear Crazy Donut Productions: Great idea, making it right now.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

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TheAbomb12
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when I die, Im going to a strip club next to the Airport.

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Boy, I just love religious conversations because they go on forever! Sadly, so many ppl believe that a good firm "talking-to" will convince someone that their way is correct!

P.S.- Just wondering, how old are you Lord Ozzum?
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Night Giant
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 13:34
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Quote: "Quote: "God is not going to appear on Earth looking like Zeus or something like that(makes sense... the last time he did that he got nailed to a cross )."
Jesus was nailed to a cross."


some sects believe Christ was the son of god, and others believe he was the physical embodiment of god.

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Sparda
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Posted: 25th Jul 2004 15:46
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Whew, finished reading a good portion of this long thread and wanted to add my 2 cents

Quote: "Newton's laws of gravity."


Ever heard of a gravity wave?

Quote: "That hasn't been ultimately proven, it just hasn't been disproven. Like I said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove anything to be 100% correct unless a god himself (if he exists) comes down and says, "Yes, that is right"."


Couldn't agree more. Fact is all based on the relative world around us.

Quote: "The Bible doesn't dispute magic exists, infact Tower of Babylon quite clearly shows there are some supernatural beliefs there. They are however forbidden to be used either the White or Black arts."


Erm, no. The Tower of Babylon was destroyed because humans tried to be godlike. Also, Cerberus is entirely out of Greek mythology. The "Keeper" refered to was a moster summoned to punish the sinful by the Lake of Sulphur and Fire. NOT a beast who's job was to guard Satan from escape.

Quote: "The Bible is a guide, as was said before; It's not Strict RULES you must follow or be smited, they're guidelines on how to be a good person. Somewhere along the translation that was forgotten."


Revelations is pretty clear that sin will be punished. Not that I believe all that though...

Quote: "Though it's difficult to have faith"


Faith is like a catch 22. Faith is based on the lack of evidence, so the less proof, the stronger faith gets.

Well, I don't have much of a personal opinion, just wanted to join the fray. Good night.

gl and hf
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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 26th Jul 2004 14:36
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In response:

Interesting points from Konrad, but as for the Tower of Babylon, not so much "god-like", but mans attempt to get around God. It's like a way to put God out of their life and make an easy way out.

AS for faith, while I think Konrads response may seem a tiny bit off, but the first part can be backed up by Hebrews 11:1. The second part about less proof=stronger faith, I think should be closer to less proof=stronger faith required.

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Lord Ozzum
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I'm 14

I do believe in higher powers, just not Gods. I believe in demons. I believe in fairies. I believe in dragons. Just not Gods. I know it may sound gay to believe in this, and though science can never prove it, I still believe. I do not hate other religions. I do not hate people because of their religions. I hate people who I judge to be @ssholes. I'm an @sshole at times. I think we all have been. I believe in magick too. THAT is a higher power. I believe in the Christian pentegram! Most people don't know that this is Christian, merely believing that both are evil. Well, the right-side-up pentegram represents 2 things: the five elements (earth, fire, air, water, and spirit), plus God ruling over the world (each point is a place where Jesus was wounded):

The inverted one, however, represents Satan ruling.
The above one attracts good, while the bottom one attracts evil.


WWSD?
Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad who's power is Satan. He'll give you give you 666. There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer sad Satan.
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Jimmy
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Posted: 26th Jul 2004 16:37
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Yyyyeeaaahhhh you'll grow out of it.


<Mnemonix> im seroulsiy frunk to doaty
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 26th Jul 2004 16:54
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@Jimmy: If you can prove your God or the existance of any God, sure, I'll quit

WWSD?
Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad who's power is Satan. He'll give you give you 666. There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer sad Satan.
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Jimmy
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I will when you prove your fairies and dragons.


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Manticore Night
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Quote: "I believe in fairies"
So do I, they live in a mystical village called SanFransico. If you want to go looking for them, here's a peice of advice: What go's down, stays down.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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Lord Ozzum
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Manticore Night: Could you please put your DBC fanboy thing down one space lower?

WWSD?
Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad who's power is Satan. He'll give you give you 666. There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer sad Satan.
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Jimmy
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Ozzum: CAN I BORROW A FEELING?


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HZence
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Quote: "CAN I BORROW A FEELING?"


Heh, simpsons, right?


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Jimmy
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HZence: CAN YOU LEND ME A JAR OF LOVE?


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No budget games
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Gulp

YOUR A BIT RUBBISH ARENT YOU
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ahhhh big fight

YOUR A BIT RUBBISH ARENT YOU
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HZence
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Quote: "CAN YOU LEND ME A JAR OF LOVE?"


Hurtin' hearts need some healin'
So give me a hand with your glove of love!

lol, good times.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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