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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / - DBPro Coding Challenges -

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 30th Jan 2006 20:41
Basically - the rule is "Can someone copy and paste it into their IDE and hit run without needing to download anything else?"

Ric blurred this slightly by making one program produce code for another. Normally this isn't allowed as its considered a sneaky way around the "no media" thing - you're basically embedding it into the program. Thing is Ric had made the program that did the converting... This was deemed acceptable - just!

I think we should just stick to the copy and paste rule. If someone wants to convert a 512x512x32 texture into data statements, let them - however its up to the judge of the challenge to decide if they will allow it or if it will be held against them. "Ref's decision is final!!"

Segan
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Posted: 30th Jan 2006 21:49 Edited at: 30th Jan 2006 21:49
Just to let everyone know, I'm back! I don't know if I will be able to take part in this challenge though... Got a lot of stuff that I need to do in the next two weeks.
BillR
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Posted: 30th Jan 2006 21:55
@Ric - I'm working on this challenge, but ODE is kicking my butt so far, just hard to learn with no docs.

I did find www.ode.org, the user guide is helping some.

Attched is the ODE User Guide, found on www.ode.org.
BillR
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Posted: 30th Jan 2006 23:36 Edited at: 30th Jan 2006 23:38
Still lots to do, but here it is so far.




I can't wait for some docs for ODE!
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 30th Jan 2006 23:55
Nice one Bill!!

I was gonna do some of this tonight - but I got distracted

http://www.thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

You can now see a live list of the 10 most recent posts in this forum on my site..

Ric
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 01:01 Edited at: 31st Jan 2006 01:17
I've gone back to using the 'add force' command instead of 'set linear velocity' - once I realised that add force used absolute values, it seems to work.

I cannot make the cushions any more bouncy - from what I have read this appears to be a bug in the physics engine, in that you can't set a bounce value once you have set a friction value - and I need friction to make the balls rotate. Apparantly IanM's update sorts this problem, but I only really want to upgrade to that as a last resort, given the whole dll/media issue with these challenges.

Now that I'm using the add force command, I can also set the point of application of the force on the cue ball, theoretically meaning you can add topspin/backspin. It's having some kind of effect, although it doesn't really behave as I would like it to.

And I can't seem to get the friction right between the table surface and the balls - too much and the balls slow down too quickly - but too little and they slide over the surface instead of rolling. There seems to be no approriate value I can find where they roll, but don't slow down too much.

Use arrow keys to aim, "a" and "z" to adjust topspin, and space to shoot.



@BillR - nice to see someone else having a go! Your code is still relying on native dbp commands though for the motion of the balls and their collisions with the walls and floor - if you used the 'ode add force command' for firing the balls, the engine should take care of all of that with no additional code needed. You'd probably run into the same problem as me though, where the walls aren't bouncy enough.

Milkman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 01:10 Edited at: 31st Jan 2006 03:33
[post no longer relevant]

formerly xMik
BillR
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 01:10
@Nicholas - GREAT WEB SITE! - A really great idea!

Thanks for all the hard work you and Ric have put on it, and all the others that helped also. The coding challenge has turned into such a success, it was getting very hard to track down submissions, challenges, winners,etc.

What a great code resource for everyone to learn with and keep track of the challenges!

It's always been the forums, users, mods, and TGC when they could stop by who helped make this DBPro adventure/struggle as great as it is, many thanks to everyone who has contributed, keep up the good work!
BillR
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 01:27
@Ric - LOOKS GREAT!
I made some changes just to try something out...I set the Q-ball mass to 1000, and the other balls at 50, gives better breaks.

The balls do slow down too quickly, even when they slide some....frustrating, I know.



Having the Q-ball be different from all the other balls is probably ok, since some of what we are dealing with is issues with ODE.

And, anytime you change mass like I just did, friction, etc. also needs to be tweaked.

I am dealing with some of the same issues, finding the right mass, friction, etc., good luck with your pool table, I really like what you've done!
BillR
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 08:53
@Ric - The yellow balls I control, they are mostly for behavior comparison with the ODE Red balls, which I don't control at all, other than to give them an initial velocity. Eventually the yellow balls will be removed.

And yes, my ODE walls don't bounce enough, can't seem to make them any better than they are.

ODE has many behaviors that are causing problems, from object rotation differences, softer physics reactions - like less bounce, you know, I'm sure you are dealing with them also.
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 09:53
should we make a rule now saying the games must run on the "fixed" DLL provided my IanM?

Ric
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 11:34
@Bill: Making the cue ball heavier seems to be a good idea - as you say, it gives better breaks. However, it does then seem to 'chase' the balls, rather than performing nice elastic collisions. I think it's a problem with not being able to set the bounce coefficient.

Also, I hadn't realised you had two sets of balls. Using a set as a controlled comparison is a really good idea.

@Nick: Yes, I think that would be a good idea. I think I've reached a brick wall with the lack of bounce coefficient, and using IanM's update will hopefully rectify that. I don't think we're crossing any no-media boundaries here, as having a working ode plugin is really a prerequisite for this challenge.

BillR
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 13:29
Yep...I agree too!

We should use the fixed DLL from IanM.
BillR
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 16:23 Edited at: 31st Jan 2006 16:37
Is there any way to know the x,y,z location of an ODE controlled objects as they fly trough the air in my room, so that I can have trigger events happen?

I will be controlling the triggered events with my own code.

(edit)
Hmmm... Answered my own question, the object seems to still be a DBPro object so all the usual commands work like:
object position x()
object position y()
object position z()

I just can't move it myself, or I will screw up the ODE world for that object.
Sven B
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Posted: 31st Jan 2006 21:10 Edited at: 1st Feb 2006 13:06
If it's fine by Rich, we can add the rule of using IanM's DLL.

Besides, it'll probably be included in the next update of DBPro...

Taychon: Bowling... sounds cool, but I couldn't play it because of 5.9 not recognising a command... :-(

Ric: It's looking pretty professional. Next thing would be the holes

BillR: This could become a very cool game. Maybe some textures and effects could increase the gameplay.

[edit] nevermind

It's the programmer's life:
Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
Ric
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 00:09
Quote: "Maybe try not to use too high speed values, because sometimes it will pass an object without colliding"


From what I have read by the author of the original ODE, this is supposed to be impossible. Normal DBPro motion works by 'teleporting' objects from one position to the next - and if the speed is too high then it might miss a collision. But the ode calculates all motion and interections mathematically, and should be able to predict a collision between two objects regardless of the closing velocity of the objects. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Ric
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 01:46 Edited at: 1st Feb 2006 01:47
Ok - I've updated to IanM's revised ODE, but now I've lost all friction on spheres. I'm beginning to think that the ODE may still be a little too underdeveloped to be used in the way I'm trying to. Falling boxes (as I guess is all that's needed in FPScreator) is fine, but trying to simulate other processes where you need fine control over the parameters just doesn't seem feasible to me at the moment.

Coding Fodder
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 05:38
Good work Ric. Glad to see the billards table agian. I managed to blast the cue ball off the table and into the abyss. not sure how that one works. Funny about the friction/mass/elasticity problem. I am not sure how to code that sort of thing wrong. Unless there are shortcuts in the physics....

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Sven B
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 13:05
Quote: "ode calculates all motion and interections mathematically, and should be able to predict a collision between two objects regardless of the closing velocity of the objects"


This could be right, I had the impression I missed some balls when using high forces on the white ball. But maybe that's my lack of accuracy
And I thought the yellow balls in BillR's had to be colliding too, but it seems that only the red balls can collide with other objects.
(edited)

It's the programmer's life:
Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
BillR
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 16:43 Edited at: 1st Feb 2006 16:49
Hey Ric, and everyone.

Here is my entry so far, you try to get the boxes over the blue wall!



Let me know what you think so far.

The leveldata:, data statements are the #boxes on a level, followed by each boxes x,y coords, in a room that is 2000 wide.
Image All
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 17:05
I can see you're going to be the master of shooting galleries

BillR
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 17:57 Edited at: 1st Feb 2006 19:04
well maybe so, but I thought it would be a good display of ODE.

Also, I thought ODE was going to be a TOUGH challenge, and since I kind of liked and understood a 3D shooting game, that most of my coding could be spent on learning ODE.

But, you didn't say what you liked or disliked about my ODE shooting gallery. And if you don't like it, what would make it better?

I read your post again, and maybe it means you liked it....and if that's the case....cool, thanks.
Ric
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 19:55
Nice work Bill - actually, although I criticised the lack of control the ODE offers, for the sort of thing you've done here it works brilliantly. I think I've reached a brick wall as far as the pool physics goes - I just can't find any way to get friction to work with spheres with IanM's update, and without the update I can't get the bounce working and the friction working at the same time. Maybe I should try skittles instead!

BillR
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Posted: 1st Feb 2006 21:58 Edited at: 1st Feb 2006 23:30
@Ric - I think ODE needs more work also, it is VERY slugish as far as motion, velocity, bounce, etc. I had to change gravity from -20 to -.3 to get objects to move through the air, bounce,and react the way I wanted them to.

But having so little gravity, objects don't settle to the ground right, the hang in the air when touching the ceiling or wall, or even the sitting funny on the ground.

I hope ODE will get some tweaks and tuning in the future for a more usable physics engine, because I do like what I can get it to do so far, even if it's not completely working yet. I too agree ODE needs more control over what you want it to do, for more realistic simulations.

And thanks for the nice comment Ric.
Coding Fodder
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 00:31
I believe that the problem ric is experiencing is a lack of rolling resistance in ODE. (this is just speculation) It seems that ODE is using sliding friction to slow the balls. If sliding friction where all that existed a rolling object would continue infinitly. Rolling friction is a result of the deformation of bodies. In the case of pool balls it is mainly the crushing of the felt on he table. A pool ball on smooth concrete would roll a very long way indeed.

Interesting problem. But ODE needs a new parameter. Does it even allow static and kinitic coeficients of friction?

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Ric
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 00:58
Quote: "It seems that ODE is using sliding friction to slow the balls"


If it did use sliding friction to slow the balls, that would at least be a reasonable approximation of the actual process - my problem is that it won't even apply sliding friction. Well, I've added friction manually in the mean time by reducing the velocity of each ball each loop. Kind of works, I think!



BillR
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 01:23 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2006 02:18
@Ric - I really like your pool table program, I am always amazed that you can do so much with so little code, I wish ODE was not such a problem to work with right now, it is certainly holding you back this time.

I changed 3 lines in your aim routine to give me better fine aiming by holding down the shift key, here it is.



Really helps aiming.

I know your probably tired of struggling/cursing at ODE, I feel your pain. I may take a look at your code later, to learn mostly, but to see if anything comes to mind about better breaking.

Off to run some errands, will check back later.
Coding Fodder
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 02:54
Sliding friction would be a good approximation true. but it would be set very low and your balls would not rotate. Is that not precisely the effect you observed? Sliding friction gets the balls rolling. Rolling friction slows them down.

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Ric
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 00:08
@Bill - good idea to include fine aim - I originally had the aim controlled by the mouse, so you could just move the mouse slower to aim more precisely, but in the past I've found that using 'mousemove' commands gives different results on different PC's - what seems fine here is oversensitive somewhere else - and as I think it's to do with windows settings rather than the speed of the processer, it's not something that can be fixed with timer stuff or sync rate. Hence I switched to arrow keys.

@CF: yes that's true - I really want maximum sliding friction to stop them skidding, and a small amount of rolling friction so they slow down gradually. I guess that kind of stuff just isn't built into the ODE. Next challenge - write our own physics engine!!

BillR
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 01:08 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2006 03:06
@Ric - Where in Cyberspace are you...US...UK..etc?
You don't have to tell me, just curious.

My -8 hrs from GMT in San Francisco, I miss much of the live messaging that goes on, and when I leave a message, most others are in bed...just seems weird sometimes.

I've been so busy lately, I haven't had time to work on my ODE shooter, maybe later tonight.
Coding Fodder
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 03:44
I heartily approve of the idea of writing your own physics engine. I have started thinking about ways to handle all the physics neccesary for the billiards problem. (spheres and boxes maybe cylinders for kicks). But with 3rd dimension capability. To jump the cue ball maybe.

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 04:21
So what exactly is the challenge? I haven't seen an official statement yet. I won't make it in anyway, midterms over the next week.


Deadly Night Assassins
Ric
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 13:14
@ CF: I'd be interested to see if you manage to come up with something. If I remember correctly, when we first had a stab at the pool table problem nearly a year ago, we had figured out the collision, but were having problems with the rotation. Rotation always seems to be a nightmare!

@ Bill: I'm based in the UK - but as I tend to code better at night, I'll frequently be on US time anyway!

@Phaelax: the challenge is to use the ODE to create some kind of demo involving a moving ball. I think we've got about one more week.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 00:12
I'm trying to run the snippets, but it keeps getting errors because of the "ode" in front of so many things. Whats that?

Pirates of Port Royale:
http://www.popr.gwgaming.net
Live the life of a citizen from the 17th century. Anything from being an infamous pirate to a lowly blacksmith.
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 01:55
Are you:
a) running 5.9 compiler patch
b) runing the latest IDE patch for the default IDE.. if not, which ide you using?

BillR
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 01:05 Edited at: 6th Feb 2006 02:27
Only a few new changes so far.



You may have to adjust your mouse sensitivity in the control panel.
Read the top of the source code, you can lose points now.
Ric
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 01:59 Edited at: 6th Feb 2006 02:00
Looking good - one issue that I forgot to mention last time, is that I sometimes get a big white blob, accompanied by a massive slowdown in frame rate, in place of the particle effect. I haven't figured out exactly when it happens - but it may be when more than one set of particles is produced:



BillR
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 02:12 Edited at: 6th Feb 2006 04:39
@Ric - That's really weird. Does your video card have less than 64Megs RAM, or less capable video card than mine?

My system:
AMD 1800+ Dual CPU motherboard
1 Gig RAM
Window XP Pro
ASUS v8200 64 Meg Video Card (GeForce3 Ti/200)

I don't get the white blobs, don't know why you get them.
I an setting up as many particle emitters as there are blocks, maybe I should set them up as I need them?...I don't know

Particles are new to me, maybe there is a better way to set them up.

Does anyone else get the white blobs?
@Ric - thanks for the feedback! - I just put new source code in my earlier post, I found a bug not letting the player get to the next level even if all the boxes are gone, I will work on the problem.

Why does adding 'set display mode 1024,768,32' blow out the colors so bad. The front of the boxes gets brighter, as if the light source changed location. Do I need to change some setting if I use the command 'set display mode 1024,768,32'? I even lowered the ambient light from 20 to 10, boxes are still too bright....HELP?!
Ric
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 10:46
It's probably my graphics card (ancient GF2) - just tested it on my laptop and have no problem. Although - that has integrated graphics and should be even worse!

I have noticed the change in brightness with a resolution change before too - I ended up having to alter the ambient light value. Also try turning off the default light (hide light 0) and creating your own light 1.

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 11:03
I've never noticed - resolution should have bugger all to do with lighting...

Ric
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 11:40
I noticed it when I ran megaton's walkthrough model demo - 800*600 looked, well - bizarre. 1024*768 though, and the lighting was perfect. Must be a graphics card thing?

BillR
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 02:13
@Ric - I will try your suggestions.

@Nicholas - In my ODE box shooting program, rem out the 'set display mode 1024,768,32' and set the ambient light to 20, then run it.

Then take out the rem for the set display mode line, and run it again...Startling difference! At least on my system.

Anyway, off to the computer store, maybe work on my program later, I'm not sure what else to do, I'll think of something.

@Ric - sounds like it's time for a new video card! Good luck with the whole upgrade process, hope it goes smoothly! You deserve a new video card anyway. With the quality of programming you do, you deserve a video card that can keep up with you. I'm just amazed! it hasn't shown you any funny blobs or problems until now.

I am probably one of the older programmers here, 47, so upgrading (purchasing) a new video card might be a little easier for me than some of the younger programmers here, but I don't mean to stress you out about getting a new card if your finances are tight right now. I hope you can afford to RUN...or walk.. soon to get your new card ASAP.
Classic Evil
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 02:29
hey ric Ive enjoyed your programming challenges I just started trying them a couple of days ago. My account level says that its standard but I still have to wait for my posts to be accepted. This is because I was mean to someone in a post. The mods noob slapped me but that was a really long time ago and I havent made another bad post since then and it still wont let me automatically post messages. Can someone tell me whats going on. I havent been able to post for days now since I made the post which wasnt really that bad.

There are two types of people in this world: people who are extremly cool and are good at everything and people who are me.
Ric
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 04:10
I will most likely have to upgrade my entire system quite soon. I bought my current system about 5 years ago - P4 1.8GHz was pretty good back then, but it's amazing how quickly things become outdated.

Having said that, one of the advantages of working with an older set up is that when I write a piece of code, I don't usually have to worry that it won't run on someone elses PC. I often write programs that get used in schools, where pc's tend to have low level integrated graphics, and it's quite useful to know that if it runs on mine, it will run on their's.

47 eh? You just made me feel young again!

Darth Vader
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 07:34
I haven't entered any challenges, but I have a challenge!

Compile all the WINNING entries

This will be a great sources for the newbies with tons of code snippets! Could even be used as a tutorial!

You will be awarded points depending on the presentation of the compiltation. EXAMPLE: If you organised the challenges on their diffilculty you would recieve more points

Deadline
One week from the post of this thread.
I will judge the entries!

Good Luck!!

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!
Oh but I do!!
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 08:08
Quote: "Compile all the WINNING entries"


http://www.thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/index.php?page=dbchallenge&subpage=view

Thats all the entries (haven't got round to compiling the last couple yet).

A list of winners - now THATS a good idea!

Darth Vader
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 08:13
WOW!!

That's good I like it!
Sorry I didn't go through all 72 pages of 2,847 messages I lost the nerve.

But this is good

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!
Oh but I do!!
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 08:19
hehe - cheers. Dont blame you for not looking through 72 pages This thread has become quite the sucess story!

Darth Vader
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 08:34
Heh my thread is on the webpage challenge listing!
Its called Need a good Collision DLL"

Speaking of which is there any challenge for a FPS matrix collision?
Thanks!

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!
Oh but I do!!
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Feb 2006 10:14
do you mean detecting the height of a matrix?

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