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3D World Studio / [LOCKED] Beta Version 5 discussion

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JoshK
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 01:57
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Please read this list before reporting bugs.

Implemented
Brush creation/scaling/rotation
Vertex/edge manipulation
Texture browser
Meshes
Mesh scaling, etc. (Go to properties to change scale)
Brush plugins
Face selection / UV mapping
Carve
Rotation buttons
Selection box
Hide mask
Texture lock
Edge selection button
All render modes except "portal"

Not Yet Implemented
New, Open, Save
Cut, Copy, Paste
Undo, Redo
Groups
Terrain
Hollow

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APEXnow
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 02:35 Edited at: 24th Mar 2005 03:07
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Josh, A couple of problems I've found, although not biggies.

1. The Y scrolling for the three 2D views are reversed. So scrolling up with the scroll arrow keys causes the view to move up rather than down. Just needs swapping round.

2. If I place the Gothic arch onto the map and attempt to resize the arch using the 2D views, the arch retains it's original size. I.e. it doesn't expand to fit the resize bounding box.

[EDIT]

3. When placing the prefab, in this example, the tube, is it possible to automatically combine the tube segments into a group by default? So that the tube can be moved and rotated accordingly. What I mean by this is that if for some reason the tube is unselected for a second, you have to re-highlight all the tube segments to perform the desired operation. If the tube is grouped by default, this won't be necessary. (PLACED BUT IGNORE) Groups yet to be implemented!

4. When creating a cylinder, is it possible to allign the cylinder length along the Z axis relative to the view that you begin drawing the cylinder in? So lets say I begin drawing the cylinder in the top view, the circular portion will appear in the top view and the length of the cylinder will run along the Y world axis. If I draw in the Side view, the cylinder when generated, shows the circular view in the Side view and the cylinder length runs along the X axis? This obviously requires a flag to determine the original drawing frame and passed to the brush generation code. Would this make sense?

5. Brush rotation will need a configurable rotation snap value, i.e. 15 degree increments.

6. Can I assume that there are still things to be done on Carve? See below pic for example of carving a cylinder out of a cube brush



I'll keep testing.

Paul.


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pingz
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 03:00
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Ok... so far:

1. Edge selection is too sensitive... i've found edges that i can never select because i'm always one pixel off of them.

2. Primitives that are made up of multiple brushes should be already grouped together at creation time.

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JoshK
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 03:12
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Quote: "2. If I place the Gothic arch onto the map and attempt to resize the arch using the 2D views, the arch retains it's original size. I.e. it doesn't expand to fit the resize bounding box."

Meshes no longer are scaled with bounding boxes. You edit their scale manually in the "properties" dialog. The reason for this is because it is impossible to fit a mesh into a new bounding box without skewing it. Meshes are also now created to their intended scale, so you shouldn't have to change their size very often.

Quote: "4. When creating a cylinder, is it possible to allign the cylinder length along the Z axis relative to the view that you begin drawing the cylinder in?"

The program passes a value to the plugin that tells it the relative z-axis the object is created at is, and this is used.

Quote: "6. Can I assume that there are still things to be done on Carve? See below pic for example of carving a cylinder out of a cube brush"
Yes, I am in the middle of messing around with the carving.

Quote: "2. Primitives that are made up of multiple brushes should be already grouped together at creation time."

Please read the list at top. Groups are not yet implemented. But yes, they will work that way.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 03:21 Edited at: 24th Mar 2005 03:32
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Josh, yes, I see my error regarding the cylinder axis, basically I had to ensure cursor was in the view before creating the brush with Enter

Prefab scaling, also corrected, thanks

Ok, so far so good

[EDIT] Oh, one more thing, can you place a new menu command in the view menu to reset the camera location to it's default position. Again, if you get lost in the view, it's disorientating.

Also, is it possible to modify the zooming ability for 2D views so that the Zoom focus applies the view to the center of the cursor rather than the current scroll position? So like if the view is slightly off center of the origin and you place the mouse cursor over the origin and zoom in, the zoom will ensure that the origin is always in view under the cursor? I appreciate that these are user interface changes, not bugs

Paul.


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JoshK
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 03:55
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Quote: "Oh, one more thing, can you place a new menu command in the view menu to reset the camera location to it's default position. Again, if you get lost in the view, it's disorientating."

Just click on the '3D', 'XY' buttons, etc.

Quote: "Also, is it possible to modify the zooming ability for 2D views so that the Zoom focus applies the view to the center of the cursor rather than the current scroll position?"

Agreed.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 04:50 Edited at: 24th Mar 2005 04:52
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Excellent, thank you.

Paul.

[EDIT] Oh I see, focus on 3D and click the 3D Icon. Resets the camera position. Hehe, quite nifty


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pingz
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 00:58
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Hey Josh. When can we expect to get details on how to write some of the more advanced plugins like mesh readers? I could get Torque DTS shapes to directly load up in CartShop fairly quickly.

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JoshK
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 09:12
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Okay, I will add that option pretty soon. The plugin will be silent. It will just load any .dts meshes at start time, along with the other meshes.

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pingz
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 11:26
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That sounds ok for now, but maybe you want to plan a little into the future here. I could see memory use and startup time sky rocketing like crazy when you get 100s of meshes into your model path. It would be better to make meshes load on demand.

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JoshK
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 13:41 Edited at: 25th Mar 2005 13:41
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That's actually what it does do, with models and textures, I just simplified my explanation. I should say it creates a list of available models at startup.

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EFX
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 09:11
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Well, got a hold of the beta just today (new hardware installed in my comp put it on the fritz, but it's working again now). So far, the only problem I have is keyboard usage. You can delete something through the menu, but the delete key doesn't work. And neither does hitting enter when an object is selected, it doesn't bring up the object properties menu.

That's all so far. I love being able to have a textured Axis view .

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JoshK
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 14:39
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Now at version 5.01, finished carve and added hollow.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 21:20
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Hi Josh, the carve option works a treat. Very reliable now. There was one situation that did occur where after carving a cylinder from a cube, there was one triangle that looked out of place but I need to recreate the situation in order to demonstrate the issue. I don't actually believe it's a bug anyway, I think it's more down to a math rounding error as the carve destination was a complex form.

Also, the hollow still needs the dialog to define interior or exterior hollowing parameter.

I'm extremely impressed with the face texturing panel. This really does make it much easier to texture face parameters by fitting to size etc. Really good job on this, and I thank you for it .

One more thing I've noticed as well. In Vertex editing mode, the cursor over the 2D views when moving a highlighted vertice remains the standard mouse arrow. Needs to be changed to crosshair.

I'll keep playing with the carving but so far, it's standing up pretty good.

Paul.


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pingz
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:47
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Minor irk... one on the colors automaticly assigned to a brush when carving is RGB 0,29,36. This is almost black on my monitor even with its "superbright" monitor mode turned on. It makes is difficult to see those wireframes in the 2d views.

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pingz
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:55
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You need to work out the focus when hitting keys like Delete. I was using the texturing panel and hit delete to clear the values in one of the edit boxes and deleted the brush who's face i had selected.

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pingz
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 05:03
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Ok did something crazy with carve. I dropped in a box and a cone. Placed the cones center at one corner of the box and carved. When you carve the cone out of the box it becomes a complete mess. When you carve the box out of the cone it is *almost* correct, but it has no faces on the inside where the cone and box touch. You should be able to recreate this easily.

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JoshK
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 09:06 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 09:08
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That's probably due to the intersecting points, and the fact that a cone is a really difficult shape...it has an apex which represents the intersection of 12 planes.

I'm not too concerned with cases that should not be used in real-life anyways. What I am concerned about is that it works quickly and reliably for any situations a good mapper would actually use it for.

That said, I have found a few simpler cases that mess it up, so I will continue to mess with it.

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JoshK
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 17:14
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More fun with map meshes. This mess of pipes is made out of a few mesh segments that are designed to fit together:


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pingz
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 02:25
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Cool. Can't wait to write that DTS loader.

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JoshK
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 02:30 Edited at: 29th Mar 2005 02:39
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What kind of meshes do you have for Torque? Will you be using PureBasic to write it? I am working on an example plugin for you now.

I am focusing on finishing the program, minus terrain and scripted/live update stuff. So you will be able to do all the import/export stuff you want before I get into the higher-level aspects of the program.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 04:22
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This also goes for me writing an AC3D file importer for MapEditor. Inivis have release v5 of AC3D which I've upgraded to and this is a significant piece of modelling software which is ideal for prefab generation. If you release any specs on importer plugins Josh, can you forward it to me as well please

Paul.


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pingz
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 07:38
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Quote: "What kind of meshes do you have for Torque?"

Well Torque has one mesh format that deals with both static and animated meshes, but i will not be messing with animation data. The meshes differ from scene stuff like trees and rocks to detail lamps and interior decorations. It's just like Unreal static meshes.

Quote: "Will you be using PureBasic to write it? I am working on an example plugin for you now."

I'll be writing the reader dll in C++ just like our exporter. Your PureBasic examples have been good so far as all i really need are the export function names and good descriptions of the inputs and outputs to them. If i run into anything unclear in your example i'll be sure to post about it so you can improve the documentation of it.

Quote: "I am focusing on finishing the program, minus terrain and scripted/live update stuff. So you will be able to do all the import/export stuff you want before I get into the higher-level aspects of the program."

That sounds great and will allow development of everything we wanted to see in an BSP editor.

Our next interest is your physics ties and how you deal with terrain. Both are things we could maybe take advantage of in the Torque world.

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JoshK
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 13:37
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Sent 5.02, which allows mesh load plugins. I only sent it to pingz, because he is the only person I know of working on something like that.

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pingz
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Posted: 29th Mar 2005 14:23
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APEX seems to be willing to write a AC3D reader too. The more eye balls looking at this API the better.

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pingz
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2005 18:25
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Just got Torque DTS meshes working within the CS5 beta:



Normals have issues and a few different meshes fail to load, but it's a start.

As far as textures go Josh, your gonna have to allow some flexibility. Torque likes to store textures for meshes in different places than it does textures for BSP geometry. I think the best approach will be for you to search the mesh folder for the textures before falling back to the texture folder.

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JoshK
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 02:07 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2005 02:42
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Yeah, I considered that. I think it's a good idea. And then the textures folder isn't full of skins that you would never use on a BSP wall.

I store texture indicators as strings, with a subdirectory. Like this:
TEXTUREPATH+"walls\brick1.jpg".

I expect Torque probably stores meshes with the subdirectory, like this:
MODELPATH+"vehicles\car1.dts"

Right?

So would the texture for the car model be stored like this, in the same model subdirectory?:
MODELPATH+"vehicles\car.jpg"

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pingz
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 07:14
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Yea that's basicly how Torque operates *except* you can sometimes have this:

MODELPATH+"car.jpg"

As Torque puts shared textures in the parent folder. CS4 ignores any textures not in a folder below the root texture path (not in a catagory folder). Not sure what the solution is here.

One may be to ignore the Torque engine structure and force uses to keep a "source art" structure which is in a CS friendly format and have the export process copy source art into the right places in the destination "engine art" path. This seems like a step backwards and more akin to QuArK than UnrealED.

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ALPHA ZERO PRODUCTIONS
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 09:33 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2005 09:46
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hey josh when am i getting the update ?? i already e-mailed you about it.


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JoshK
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Posted: 4th Apr 2005 14:30
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Map mesh pack I am working on for April.

I have gone about as far as I can for now on the Unreal package loader. I'm going to finish up the brush and mesh editing and release another beta. I want the plugin system, file format, renderer, and editing to be polished before I even start adding terrain, physics, and scripted updating.



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ALPHA ZERO PRODUCTIONS
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Posted: 5th Apr 2005 10:36
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hey josh can you send me a new beta please ? i can't e-mail you because my internet is acting weird.


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JoshK
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ALPHA ZERO 3D, the betas are available to Leadwerks Developers Network members, so that I can distribute and have users test with the models and textures we are producing, without giving all our artwork away. I also wanted to provide some incentive so that we could get more sales of subscriptions, and get more artwork produced.

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i can't join because i am saving money to buy dbp . would you like me to send you the message you sent the beta testers that had the beta in it ?


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Posted: 6th Apr 2005 18:36 Edited at: 7th Apr 2005 08:56
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O.o, wasn't aware you were on the email list, how did you obtain the beta?

ALPHA, Oh right, ok.


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the i got it by e-mail . if you look on the e-mail sent to list in the e-mail containing the first beta release.


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JoshK
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Posted: 7th Apr 2005 09:40
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The old beta testers list is not the same as the new one.

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JoshK
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Beta 5.03 is sent.

-added support for mesh package plugins, to load pack files as if they were subdirectories
-added .md3 support
-added UT2004 mesh support



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Christ those prefabs look smart!!!

Paul.


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Posted: 9th Apr 2005 08:21 Edited at: 9th Apr 2005 08:24
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Damn, when did I miss out on beta sign up ? I'm a registerd C4 user. Can I still get in ?

x1b

Never mind,just read
Quote: "ALPHA ZERO 3D, the betas are available to Leadwerks Developers Network members, so that I can distribute and have users test with the models and textures we are producing, without giving all our artwork away. I also wanted to provide some incentive so that we could get more sales of subscriptions, and get more artwork produced."


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JoshK
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Posted: 14th Apr 2005 06:01 Edited at: 14th Apr 2005 06:10
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On the right, plain texture. On the left, texture+cubemap+detailmap.
I'm going to consider bumpmaps to be a part of the hardware shader stuff, which will all be done together, and may not be in version 5.0.





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Necronos
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Posted: 15th Apr 2005 03:33 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2005 16:20
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will bumpmap stuff be added later to V5 then?
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JoshK
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Posted: 15th Apr 2005 06:04 Edited at: 15th Apr 2005 06:05
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I will release 5.0 before the addition of bumpmaps and hardware shaders. It wasn't a part of my plan for 5.0, and I don't want to start adding more features to an already large list. However, a subsequent version 5.x would probably see the addition of bumpmaps and hardware shaders.

The renderer is actually a plugin, now. 5.0 will ship with two renderers, which can be chosen from the options dialog. One is a full effects renderer that draws detail textures, cubemaps, and animations, and the other just renders a plain texture.

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Deadwords
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Really cool! Cant wait for Cshop 5

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CShop 5 seems like it's coming along! Any idea on the pricing yet, Josh? If you need another beta tester, drop me a line!

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Is there be a option to reset the view back to 0,0 and when does it look like CShop 5 may be ready for public release?

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pingz
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@BCPOS - Yes... in CS5 you just switch the viewport your in from the 3d view to 2d and back and the camera is reset.

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JoshK
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 04:58 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 05:00
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Version 5.0 will be released with the following features:

-Brush editing
-Staticmeshes
-Terrain
-Lighting
-Materials

The following features will not yet be implemented when 5.0 is released, but are planned for later versions:
-Script
-Physics
-Hardware shaders

I think this provides a powerful program in a relatively soon release. The features I am cutting for 5.0 would open up a whole 'nother level of complexity.

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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 07:21 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 07:32
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Render comparison between CS4 and CS5 (thanks Tom):

CS5 renderer at low-quality settings, same as the CS4 renderer:


CS5 renderer with 4x antialias, detail textures, and trilinear and anisotropic texture filtering:


Side by side:


WindowsXP Media Center Edition, Pentium 4 2.53 GHz CPU, 512 MB of RAM, GEForce4 MX 440
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dugzilla
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 21:40
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Excellent work Josh!!!

This is hard to say...Your Wrong!
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JoshK
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 14:09 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2005 14:47
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Renderer is done. It now functions as a plugin, so you can tweak the settings any way you want. The program sets up the matrices and settings, and then passes the data to the render plugin for the final adjustments. The plugin contains a function, RenderSurface(), which draws a vertex array for a brush, mesh, character, whatever.



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