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Geek Culture / Increasing cost of modern game creation

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Philip
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Posted: 20th May 2005 09:01
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4562705.stm

This BBC article has a point. The cost of modern game creation is incredibly high.

For example, so far, for Entropy, I have roughly calculated the costs to be as follows:

£250 for the help of two professional modellers
3 large jars of marmalade
2 large jars of strawberry jam
32 loafs of bread
2 large jars of coffee
serious wear and tear on my Hi-Fi and, for that matter, my eyes

Quite shocking.

But there is a serious point here. I've found as games become increasingly expensive and increasingly generic, I've bought less and less of them. There was a time I'd buy a game a month. Nowadays its very rare for me to even consider buying more than one game a quarter.

I agree that the costs have certainly surpressed innovation and caused developers to opt for "more of the same" - more FPSes and RTSes rather than original and novel games of the sort that Peter Molyneux at Bullfrog used to churn out. Sad, really.

Views, people?

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Osiris
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Posted: 20th May 2005 09:21
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What the hell! Shouldant they have thought of this problem before hand!!!

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spooky
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Posted: 20th May 2005 09:35
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I too have stopped buying games but maybe that's just because I'm getting old. Last games I bought was Half Life 2 and Myst4. I sold rest of my games on ebay, about 30 of 'em.

The next game I buy will probably be Myst5.

I'm even bored of my PS2 and only have about 10 games for it, some of which I've only played once.

Maybe its time I got myself a wife, a couple of sprogs, and settle down in the country somwehere, like normal people.


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Raven
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Posted: 20th May 2005 10:15
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now when you say £250 for professional modellers, would that be each or both?

well not matter, yes I strongly agree gamers are getting bored of games as a whole.

yet if you consider the facts.
10 years ago the global gaming market was around 4 million players.
5 years ago this had risen to 200 million players.
Today there is an est. 15 billion players.

a decade ago, you sold 1 million units and you were the best selling developer around. 2 years ago many Eidos core franchises sold just over 2 million units and they were proclaimed disasters.

i think it's much tougher now to create a 'winning' game.. creative new approaches are often overshadowed because the masses actually buy more of the generic BS titles.

really as far as the developers go, they're not to blame much. they have to make a living and changing the formula leads to people either loving it (RE4) or hating it (Zelda TWW)

it's not the gamers, it's the games.

I'd say, if you want to feel that buzz you felt 10years ago playing Lemmings or Ultima.. when you felt that games were inventive still, then purchase a GameCube.

Billy Hatcher, Pikmin, Veiwtiful Joe, all really go to rekindle the imagination of games as well as evolving game types you long thought dead.

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zenassem
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Posted: 20th May 2005 10:24
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I just don't have the time to really get good at, complete, or be absorbed by games the way I did when I was younger.

Between work, relationships, personal responsibilities, education pursuits, and my other hobbies: Art, programming, Guitar, Sidework (computer/network repair/design, webpages) etc...

There really isn't that much time!

When I do play games, I tend to go for games that I can pick-up easily and play at my leisure, and that I can save progress. eg. Sim City, Myst series, puzzle games, Old RTS's C&C, Starcraft, AOE etc...

It took me nearly 12 months to finish Final Fantasy IX. (yeah I know not the best in the series).

I remember when I was younger I would get some games during the holidays, on my Birth Day, and maybe 1 or 2 during the rest of the year. My parents thought even that was out of control. So whether they were good or bad, that's what I was stuck playing.

I don't know how people keep up with the latest games, multiple systems, these days. I have all my old stuff, but I was always 1 system behind the trend. And I still am. I save a lot of money that way. I still buy games for the N64 and PS1. I finally bought a game cube when it was at $99.00.

~zen


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th May 2005 16:33
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I now find myself going back to play older games I have that were good, but I never had time play. Every once in a blue moon I'll grab the top of the line FPS or other genneric game or sometimes a real gem will come out like Psychonauts.

Quote: "10 years ago the global gaming market was around 4 million players.
5 years ago this had risen to 200 million players.
Today there is an est. 15 billion players."

I think you made a typo dude.

Crazy Donut Productions
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David R
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Posted: 20th May 2005 16:44 Edited at: 20th May 2005 16:45
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Last game I ordered (was ironically) a Pete Molyneux (lionhead Studios) game. Its 'The Movies' (well wactually I pre-ordered it; its released in October)

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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David T
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Posted: 20th May 2005 18:24
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Quote: "Today there is an est. 15 billion players."


lmao, yeah. There are 6 billion people in the world.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 20th May 2005 18:42
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Someone from the BSA (or something) wants to increase the price of computer games to around £60 - whether it applies to both PC and console games, I dont know, but in either case, I dont thing it represents good value for money.

I'm tending to buy less (and generally sell my old ones on eBay) too - there doesn't seem to be anything that stands out at the moment.

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
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lagmaster
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Posted: 20th May 2005 20:43
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the last new game i purchased was half-life 2 back in jan i think.

funnyly enough after all these years ive had a pc, the ONLY game i play more than once a week on and off for 5 years is team fortress classic for half-life. i'm now ranked ~1000 out of 6000 people.

i have a xbox,gc but imo i prefer the older games. i play rollercoaster tycoon on the xbox and for the gamecube i have crazy taxi. i even dig out the playstation, mega drive, master system to play games.

i feel the new games focus on graphics (and other related things you can see) than a decent storyline. if i ever do buy brand new games i only get them 2nd hand because in my eyes some of the games on the market now are not even worth the rrp value.

i think i own more master system games than i do pc.

so as you can see, i'm more attached to my older games, than newer one. i bet some of you are the same. so this is probably what they fear. a small number of users who prefer older games to newer ones.

i've yet to see a game within the last 2 years (apart from hl2) to say "i must go out and buy that game!"

lagmaster - http://www.darkbasicnet.info <-- irc network for #darkbasic
- most of my websites down :/
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Peter H
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Posted: 20th May 2005 23:56
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yeah, last game i bought was...hmmm...Lords of the Realm III...

but before that i hadn't bought anything since freelancer....

anyway the game i like to dig out annualy is "Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine"...that game even though the graphics suck, just sucks me in every time...it has such cool complex areas to explore (and you have to explore them if you're going to solve your current dilema) that i notice something new each time...

it also has a certain atmosphere about it...i'll be on this one level were you are in this monastary...and there are only a few dead monks here and there...all you can hear is this massive clock on the floor ticking...tick...tock....tick....tock....and it gets so freaking tense!!! then they utilize that tenseness with these ice guys that suddenly drop from the ceiling when you get close and make a freaky as death noise...

over all it's a pretty innovative game...there will be a part for example that you'll look out the window and think..."hmmm you don't think i'm supposed to get in to that locked room by going out the window do you? naahh they wouldn't have put detail like that in..." but you try and it works! this game kinda tends to have such complex levels that it seems like you have the freedom that Half -Life 2 promised.

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Rob K
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Posted: 21st May 2005 00:22
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Quote: "I agree that the costs have certainly surpressed innovation and caused developers to opt for "more of the same" - more FPSes and RTSes rather than original and novel games of the sort that Peter Molyneux at Bullfrog used to churn out. Sad, really.
"


Innovation is risky. As Looking Glass* fans will understand, brilliantly original games do not always sell well. You only need to look at Harry Potter, Enter the Matrix and Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith to see that the games that really sell are not always the ones applauded by critics.

There was a time when games were simple enough that very small teams could produce them with only limited resources. In that situation, it didn't matter if a company's first couple of attempts were unsuccessful, interesting ideas that just don't play well perhaps. With the financial backing required to create a modern game with advanced graphics, sophisticated AI, voice acting and licensed music, it is hardly surprising that publishers stick to what is safe.

I see some parallels between the film and game industry in this respect.

*Looking Glass was a game company that had a habit of making great games that nobody bought.


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Raven
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Posted: 21st May 2005 02:39
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Quote: "this game kinda tends to have such complex levels that it seems like you have the freedom that Half -Life 2 promised."


true, true..
I never got very far in that Indi game, if I remember there was a bug with Geforce256 at the time which made it crash or something.

I still love playing Tomb Raider on my PSOne. The atmosphere of the end levels is spooky and cool, cause your walking around and you hear just a heart-beat.. which is freaky enough but then you see the mummy egg things on the side pulsating in time with the beat.
: shudders :

it's why I love Tomb Raider so much, it has so much freedom, exploration and story without really forcing any of it upon you.

definately something we've seen being lost over the recent years of development

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st May 2005 03:42
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Quote: "Looking Glass was a game company that had a habit of making great games that nobody bought"

How does anyone know they were great if no-one tried them ?

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
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David R
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Posted: 21st May 2005 04:52
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Thief (Before Ion-storm austin took over) was a Looking Glass game.

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Raven
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Posted: 21st May 2005 04:56
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Looking Glass had good games, but they went bust.. not that people can accept that because thier games weren't popular.

The most noteable is the Thief 1/2 games. To a degree it wasn't so much Looking Glass' fault, after all they'd been in business successfully or 6years before Eidos got thier hands on them.

But they were always more of an obscure company. It's like Bungie..
for almost a decade they made interesting games, but it wasn't util they made Halo that really they started getting noticed.

Not every company can achieve that, or is willing to give in to the fact that certain genre's sell more than others.

Halo didn't offer a new gaming experience in any way, just unified a number of previous experiences into a single package.. And the 2years of PC Development hype probably didn't hurt heh

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Rob K
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Posted: 21st May 2005 05:38
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Tesio, apologies for asking a slightly random personal question, and I'll understand if you choose not to reply, but do you suffer from dyslexia?

Quote: " Thief (Before Ion-storm austin took over) was a Looking Glass game."


As was System Shock, Flight Unlimited, Terra Nova and Ultima Underworld.


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David R
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Posted: 21st May 2005 05:44 Edited at: 22nd May 2005 00:00
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@Rob K: WTF? Ok first thing; I stated
Quote: "" Thief (Before Ion-storm austin took over) was a Looking Glass game.""
(As an idicator that some games they made were innovative and very successful; it sold well over the estimated unit quantity that they actually produced in the first place)

Tesio says a load of stuff (which was interesting) and you ask him if he has dyslexia or not. What are talking about and why?

<I removed the end this, because I was babbling on about rubbish, even though Rob K had said something that wasnt that bad>

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Peter H
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Posted: 21st May 2005 07:24
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sheese i didn't think he was being that rude

all the dyslexic people i know don't really care if people know they have Dyslexia

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 21st May 2005 09:58
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My cousin has dyslexia

That's like me walking around and saying, "What? You think that's funny? What are you, a Brit?"

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Raven
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Posted: 21st May 2005 10:40
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Heh, I find Americans funny all the time.
Yeah, it's mild so can often be overlooked as if I just have poor spelling. Everyone in my family except my mom suffers from it.. same goes for the poor memory.

It's nothing truely problematic. why?

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 21st May 2005 15:13
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I hear there's varying levels of severity though. My cousin and this other guy I know from school had to have special tutoring after school and during lunch, whereas I've met people who have just learned to try and sort everything out best they can themselves and it's worked for them.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 21st May 2005 15:58
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It's not surprising that development costs are blowing out more and more, but this didn't just happen. Developers can't be expected to push the envelope, without exponentially increasing development costs. But that's stating the obvious.

Something that continues to occur is that while the AAA titles thin out, taking years to develop, people are looking elsewhere, like online, for some entertaining gems. This actually creates opportunity for us home made developers. That's not to say it's easy to get noticed, as competition is fierce, just that their is opportunity for those willing to try their hand.

A good recent example of this is fog's Duo/Mono titles. So there's certainly an audience for home made developers and with the right exposure you can exploit it too. It's not rocket science. Perhaps turning your hobby into a small business, or just for the fun of it. Either way, it's not worth being disheartened by the AAA commercialism machine, there's a lot of punters they don't service. You just need to find something that you like, that isn't well represented.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic (Release V1.066 Out Now)
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STALKER
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Posted: 21st May 2005 17:21 Edited at: 21st May 2005 17:23
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Hey Im still in High School and I dont bother buying any new games anymore. The most recently game I play right now is Escape from monkey island(played the whole series, they are gems) My bro bought HL2, but i played it for a few hours and was extremely disappointed. Even though i am not that old, I am an old-school gamer. All my friends buy the latest FPS drones and the like while i am tied up on old adventure games like Freddy Pharkas, Elderscrolls Arena(My copy of daggerfall is sadly destroyes), Kings quest, The old civilisation games, Colonisation etc. I have grown up playing these games, and lots of Commodore 64 games as well. One of the reasons I am getting into Darkbasic and the like is that there is a lack of new games that are anything like these(especially the adventure game market) that i am interested in playing. I have the most unlikely goal of starting up my own small game studio, and bring back some of the classic gameplay that has all but been forgotten.

Edit- Looking back at it now this Post(however heartfelt) has next to nothing to do with the cost of making games.

>>>>>>>>>>>MIRAGE STUDIOS<<<<<<<<<<<
>>MEDIEVAL CARNIVAL<->GLADIATOR ARENA<<
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David R
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Posted: 21st May 2005 23:58 Edited at: 22nd May 2005 00:19
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Sorry... it wasnt what he said that annoyed me most, its just Rob K said it to you (Tesio) instead of the person who actually said the stupid thing (which was me). He's become blinded by Raven-rage.

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Raven
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 04:25
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What are you talking about?

He was addressing you second, the quote wasn't made to point out my typing problems, but to make a second point.

That said no doubt he was trying to insult me, I mean he isn't exactly friendly towards me.. if it was then it's kinda funny when someone tries to insult you with something that turns out to be true.

It's like my mate Daniel, some guys the other week called him a poofter in the pub and he turned round, said 'is that you subtle way of asking me if I want a drink?' .. the guy didn't seem to want to respond.

I think Indi has a point, the growing development times and costs are pushing the two markets of Shareware and Retail further and further apart. On the plus side this is a good thing, because those talented enough can capitalise on the gap in the market.

Teams like Banshee Software for example exporting around a game a month to keep people interested is a good plan. I always thought if they added a user system where people subscribe each month to download thier games it would give them some nice revenue. You might get the people who abuse the service, but on the whole you'll end up getting something and the end gamer will feel they've got a bargin.

Shareware can also allow for less conventional games, filling a considerable market gap.

Yet this does pose the secondary problem that it is getting increasingly more difficult to create games that could possibly become Class-A material.

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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 05:56
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Quote: "That said no doubt he was trying to insult me, I mean he isn't exactly friendly towards me.. if it was then it's kinda funny when someone tries to insult you with something that turns out to be true."


No, I don't make smart remarks about that kind of thing. Nothing more needs to be said on this.

Quote: "It's not surprising that development costs are blowing out more and more, but this didn't just happen. Developers can't be expected to push the envelope, without exponentially increasing development costs. But that's stating the obvious."


I believe that is one of the reasons why Nintendo didn't push the DS' specifications that far, since most of those developing for it would be ex-GBA teams, and they did not want them to have to substantially increase manpower and development costs.


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soapyfish
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 06:14
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To-day I was looking for a copy of x2 but grabbed a copy of Rise of Nations for £14.99 instead, which I'm quite happy with.

I own a PS2 and have collected 25 games over the years. My next purchase will probably be a new controller and then the 3 games I'd really like are Gran Turismo 4, MGS3 and Super Monkey Ball. I don't plan on buying games, I'll just go out, see a game I've been wanting and buy it (if it's cheap.) I never sell any games either, dunno why, just one of those things.




Formely play2kill
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Raven
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 06:25
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Good point Rob. If you noticed over E3, there was almost nothing about future PSP titles and such.. but the NDS was like a goldmine.

Without a doubt Nintendogs is going to be my next purchase
While the DS doesn't try to be a portable version of Nintendo's console, it is fair to say that it is certainly is a mammoth jump in power and design.

I think what is appealing is the fact that thier SDK hasn't changed much, more expanded to allowed developers to seemlessly upgrade, where-as the PSP is like learning a new set of rules entirely.

Nintendo's decision 6years ago to embrace C, has certainly changed the face and ease of development on thier systems. They try each step of the way to help developers where-ever and when-ever they can. It's very fair to say from a developer point of view Nintendo are trying to achieve what Microsoft has on the Windows Platform.

This is truely a good thing. Especially with thier seemless integration partnership with leading middleware Axion and Renderware.

I really like Nintendo's current mandate to lower overall development costs, rather than push thier hardware to be the most impressive. Back in the world of PC though, you can see that the field is thinning out period.

Much of the ground is being lost to multi-platform titles, and console only franchises. So few Windows franchises remain.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 14:31
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Nintendogs and Electroplankton, baby..

I wonder how much Will Wright's Spore will end up costing, since there not tons upon tons of content to be created.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 17:49
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Nintendogs looks incredibly boring--- or is it just me? I *am* looking forward to Animal Crossing DS, however. I just need to get a DS, first.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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David R
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Posted: 25th May 2005 02:37
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Live demo of Nintendogs:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/nintendogs.php

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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robo cat
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Posted: 25th May 2005 03:49
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That Nintendogs footage looked awful. There isn't a game its just some cute and cuddly animals. I know Nintendo is meant to produce original games and I have been with them my whole life, but it is its reliance on cutesy graphics that annoys me. I am not against cutsey graphics, and they do not deduct from a game, but I've noticed that recently Nintendo has relied on concepts which look fun and orginal when there isn't actually any original gameplay. Take Mario Sunshine and the fludd. The fludd looks fun to use and Nintendo claim this as an original concept, but if instead of a water pack it was a long range flame thrower and a jet pack - as in that bounty hunting star wars game thingy - the gameplay would remain EXACTLY the same yet it wouldn't be regarded as original. Nintendogs is another example. If it was a little robotic dog (although preferably a robotic cat for obvious reasons) it would be dismissed as dull, tedious, too realistic, unoriginal junk! I am a Nintendo fan and have never considered it to be inferior to the actually inferior competitors but I for one and getting annoyed at it making games look original by putting a weird concept behind it - even if it keeps the gameplay the same. I'm sure others of you agree with me that Nintendo have gone through a phase of relying on an original story / concept / graphical style to make bland gameplay seem original. At least with the new Zelda they're taking a step back in the right direction.

Simple... yet fun!
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Jeku
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Posted: 25th May 2005 12:28
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But I don't even see the big deal with the new Zelda. It just looks like a 3D platformer in the Zelda world--- no innovation from the videos at all.

Disappointed. Just waiting for the Xbox 360 and Revolution, now.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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Van B
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Posted: 25th May 2005 18:03
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I tend to buy a lot of games, like between me and the boy we probably spend about £150 per month. Thing is games are getting better, like the bottom of the barrel is not so shallow these days.

When the XBox first came out we had Halo, and erm, Halo - and umpteen cruddy PS2 ports, this was a very dark time for XBox, it's a good job Halo rocked so much, otherwise who could say what XBox's fate would have been. But nowadays we're innundated with recycled FPS games that are usually ok quality.

The last XB game that I bought and actually liked was Future Perfect, 1 game outta 5 so-so games.

I've loved the last 5 GC games I've bought, because each one is unique. I mean, Harvest Moon, Pikmin2, ResEvil4... I agree with Raven completely on this - it's similar gameplay to the games that started the whole industry, Doom3 and HL2 are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things compared to the likes of Populous and Lemmings, these games defined their own genre, not just a graphical effect or neato weapon. I can only find games like that on GC, there's just the feeling that your in good hands with Nintendo developers, like they actually give a toss whether you like the game or not.


Van-B

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Jonny Ree
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Posted: 25th May 2005 19:39
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I've been playing the japanese version of Nintendogs for a few weeks now.. and I cant seem to put it away. Its not like its taking up a lot of time in longer periods.. but you always find yourself keeping the dog by your side, and watching over it between whatever you're doing. I didnt expect too many people to be very excited about this game, as I've seen examples on here.. but I just love stuff like that for some reason. But for me, Nintendo will probably be the only choice for next gen.. I'm also one of those people who is buying less today then I did.. but then ofcourse most games today seems to be made for the single purpous of making money.. Which is the main differance between the big names in the industri.. and the ones just staring.. People with a legend behind them, probably never hear a deadline, or a pointer on what they should create. Its hard to do something new when you have no idea how much time it will take, or what it will require.. cause you cant pust the deadline, nor change the main idea.

http://seikensteel.com
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robo cat
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Posted: 25th May 2005 22:06
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Quote: "I've loved the last 5 GC games I've bought, because each one is unique. I mean, Harvest Moon, Pikmin2, ResEvil4"


I loved those games too and they ARE original. What I'm complaining about is when developers - like Nintendo - stick cute and cuddly graphics on an unoriginal game concept to make it LOOK original even when the raw gameplay isn't. Pikmin 2 had original gameplay so I its right that they had original graphics. What annoys me is the titles like Mario Sunshine when they CLAIM a games original when it just has an original story/concept.

Simple... yet fun!
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Raven
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Posted: 26th May 2005 03:04
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Quote: " I can only find games like that on GC, there's just the feeling that your in good hands with Nintendo developers, like they actually give a toss whether you like the game or not."


True ^_^
I know that at Rare, they care about thier gamers experience above all. So the end result of thier games feel like they've had a lot of a attention.

That said they aren't known for thier 'speedy' pipeline heh

Quote: "What I'm complaining about is when developers - like Nintendo - stick cute and cuddly graphics on an unoriginal game concept to make it LOOK original even when the raw gameplay isn't."


Like what?
I don't remember Nintendo CLAIMING that Mario Sunshine was some innovative original title. In-fact about all they said that Mario was back on the GameCube looking better than ever in his biggest adventure yet.

I also don't think you can compare Mario Sunshine to Bounty Hunter. They're totally different.. While sure Fludd does what Jango's Flamethrower, and Jumppack do technically, but the implimentation is quite different in practise.

Nintendo always focus on the gameplay of something, and this was no different with Mario Sunshine.

This isn't a case of Half-Life 2's Gravity-Gun being a CarbonCopy of Jedi Knight's Force Throw, because if you can't tell the difference between fire and water you need help.

I mean for example.. I don't see Jango using his Flame thrower to fill the belly of a giant plant so it gets fat and falls over.

It's the implimentation and use rather than the actual effect.
For example I'm more impressed with Doom 3's "grabber" than Half-Life 2's Gravity-Gun; because you can grab enemy projectiles and even smaller enemies themselves and launch them at things.

There are even instances where it extends the use of the world around you. In HL2 all you could do was move boxes to get through places and such.. in Doom3 they use it in several instances where you can use it to jam open doors with objects so you can get through or flip a switch that's out of reach.

It's always the implimentation of a feature rather than the feature itself that I personally find more impressive.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 26th May 2005 03:07
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Agh, Raven's back!


My blog (contains trans fat)
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 26th May 2005 04:59
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And Tesio's gone... My god! It's the invasion of the raven snatchers!

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David R
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Posted: 26th May 2005 05:41
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Quote: "I don't remember Nintendo CLAIMING that Mario Sunshine was some innovative original title. In-fact about all they said that Mario was back on the GameCube looking better than ever in his biggest adventure yet.
"


But the whole point of creating a new game, is that it offers more fun and innovative ideas than the last - otherwise there's no point making it!

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Raven
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Posted: 26th May 2005 06:42
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Quote: "But the whole point of creating a new game, is that it offers more fun and innovative ideas than the last - otherwise there's no point making it!"


Where does it say that?
The biggest game franchises in the world are successful because they work.. and screwing with the formula is often a death sentance.

Zelda is a perfect example. They changed the look in TWW and everyone hated it (well cept those who played it ).. TP though looks like an update of the N64 games and everyone is saying how much they love the new look.

id Software changed thier game direction for Doom 3, everyone hated it.. valve on the other hand keep throwing out almost identical games and people lap them up.

people don't want innovation, they want thier favourite games with upgraded graphics and world attributes like physics.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th May 2005 09:51
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Quote: "But the whole point of creating a new game, is that it offers more fun and innovative ideas than the last - otherwise there's no point making it!"

Oh yes, yes there is.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 26th May 2005 15:15
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The point being to ensure sales as Raven mentioned, thus making money so you can eat? Thar ye goo donkey.

I did not like Bounty Hunter at all, its graphics were dull and lifeless, and the gameplay was tired. Mario Sunshine kept the same idea of Mario games (which includes bright, fun graphics that always make a game infinitely more fun to play), except they added a new element to the game: manipulating the watergun thing. Yeah, it's a jetpack, but while you're jetpacking you could be soaking baddies under you and sometimes in the case of bosses you have to squirt them then do a bottom bounce. All I remember in Bounty Hunter is using the jetpack to cross long gaps.

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robo cat
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Posted: 26th May 2005 18:45
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I wasn't comparing the gameplay in Mario Sunshine to Bounty Hunter. What I meant to say is that many people consider Mario Sunshine to be original, but its actually only because of the graphics. If it was a jet pack that would fry the enemies when you go over it, only the graphics have changed - just changing the media files for the graphics - yet it wouldn't be considered original. I only mentioned Bounty Hunter so you knew what I meant by having a rocket pack thingy in a game. If Mario Sunshine had its concept changed it wouldn't have been claimed original - despite having identical gameplay. What my only gripe with Nintendo is that they sometimes now rely on an original concept without bothering to invent original gameplay (which they had invented in the past). Games like Pikmin 2 are fine as they have both original cutesy graphics AND original gameplay. However, some Nintendo titles, such as Nintendogs (and Mario Sunshine) have cutesy graphics / concept (and therefore apparently original gameplay) when in actual fact this is at the expense of the gameplay. Try playing Super Mario Sunshine without using the Fludd (except for boss battles which need it or to spray vital switches) and it will be MUCH more fun. However, in my oppinion Nintendo added in the fludd in fear of people saying Mario is unoriginal (which it would have been without any changed from Mario 64). Its this necessity of Nintendo to make games original that, although sometimes they make great games like Pikmin, sometimes they throw in a concept for originality (of a bright cartoonish gadget) and if the graphics were slightly different it actually diminishes the game.

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David R
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Posted: 26th May 2005 22:17 Edited at: 26th May 2005 22:18
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Quote: "The point being to ensure sales as Raven mentioned, thus making money so you can eat? Thar ye goo donkey."


The point of making games isn't just money. Alot of passionate people make games because they enjoy doing it. For instance, some games really feel as though the devloper has put 'their soul into it' - it feels highly polished, and as if the developer has spent alot of time ensuring you have fun.

Whereas predominantly 'just cash' DEV houses, seem to produce games that feel as though they've just come off a production line - they don't have a personality or that 'something special'.

Usually, most games seem to be the latter ; yet there are the few that break that trend (Black & White, The Sims+Simcity ... many more)
Games with a true 'soul' are also the ones that introduce something new and innovative to the interactive cannon - everything else is simply a re-hash of what has come before.

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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robo cat
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Posted: 26th May 2005 23:11
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I think the best Games Developer at the moment has to be Capcom. They don't seem to be scared of trying new risky things, such as Viewtiful Joe and Killer 7. Also, Resi 4 is a good example of breaking the mould as Capcom could have stuck with another zombie game in a mansion but instead they rebuilt one of the greatest games series from scratch - which was a pretty daring and successful venture. Viewtiful Joe is a quality game and doesn't rely on its cartoonish visuals to make it appear original. The gameplay is actually original and fun aswell. The main difference between Viewtiful Joe and The Matrix is that although slow-mo bullet dodges happen in both games, in Viewtiful Joe the player actually controls the 'fun' happening on the screen rather than just watching a game character taking control themselves - such as in cut scene based games.

Simple... yet fun!
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 27th May 2005 05:36
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Quote: "Try playing Super Mario Sunshine without using the Fludd (except for boss battles which need it or to spray vital switches) and it will be MUCH more fun."

I did try that when I first got it, and I didn't have any fun, I died all the time. You can also name countless other games that share similar gameplay as Sunshine and Bounty hunter, most of this stuff is the same idea rearranged in different ways. If you're going to bash art style at least pick something other than Bounty Hunter as your trump card, the game wasn't ugly, but it was dull.

Quote: "Usually, most games seem to be the latter"

Of course they'd be the latter, it works the same in Hollywood. Every so often you can get a neat original idea in there, but for the most part, you're going to want to put out some games that put money in your pocket so that in case your new original idea sucks or just doesn't sell well (see Beyond Good and Evil and Psychonauts, great games, poor sales) you have a security blanket to catch you so you can start again on something new.
Ever heard of a starving artist? Once you're 30-something years old with kids being innovative despite poor sales is the last thing on your mind. Your kids need food.

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robo cat
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Posted: 27th May 2005 07:31 Edited at: 27th May 2005 07:31
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Its seems as if I've explained what I was trying to say badly. I am not bashing ANY graphic styles, in fact I like cell shaded etc. What I am bashing is when devopers use an original graphic style with cartoonish models and action to make a unoriginal and dull game look good. I have nothing against good games, like Viewtiful Joe and Pikmin, where the gameplay is original using original graphics; I just don't like unoriginal gameplay being made to appear original through the use of a cartoony concept - when the underlying gameplay is bland. I also not saying if Bounty Hunter is good or bad - I haven't ever played it. I was only using it as an example of a game that uses technology (a jet-pack) which could in theory create the same gameplay as the Fludd. This was just to convey my comment that Nintendo used a Fludd to make it look original - even though the gameplay remains identical to if they had used a jet-pack, it just wouldn't have been claimed original with a different graphic style / concept.

Simple... yet fun!
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 28th May 2005 06:28 Edited at: 28th May 2005 06:28
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The problem is, you're only looking at the "jet pack" feature of the Fludd. Sure, you could have just given the player a jetpack and a super soaker, but putting all these things into one and giving Fludd some dialogue achieved much more.
Your water tank is depleted by the jetpack, the water gun and the rocket thing. To refuel you have to find a water source, and that can be tricky if the whole bay's covered in purplish brown tiedye crud. Sunshine probably would have tanked it if they didn't take a normally unoriginal and cheap gameplay element and integrate it into every aspect of gameplay as they did. Every game I can think of with a jet pack you only use it for a couple levels or crossing gaps, and for the msot part you can get around on foot just fine. I find myself flying around in the jetpack in Sunshine just for kicks and giggles, and especially if I want to conserve my life by just flying over and squirting them. Mario's acrobatic abilities also help make the experience more enjoyable. You often find yourself pulling off half a triple jump then flipping over to jetpack so you can get that last red coin or something similar, it keeps you much more engaged in the game than other games with jetpacks.

Basically, you need to take a look at the whole game. The art was not everything, though it certainly added to the experience.

Crazy Donut Productions
Current Project: A Redneck game
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