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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] Synergy IDE

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 13:50
i think the Synergy people have a contract with TGC and money is changing hands, etc... Seems to be quite an important deal with the OmegaBasic boys?!

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David T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 13:57
Quote: "Just a question, why was the thread stickied virtually straight away?"


Jealous?

Probably because it is a TGC product. And it looks pretty impressivve and hopefully when the bugs are ironed out it will be impressive.

I have to say (sorry to any others ) that this is the first TPIDE (third party ide ) that actually feels like an ide - not a homemade IDE. I don't know why, but all the others look homemade - they have a certain je ne sais quoi, whereas this acctually looks like something professional. Perhaps it's something to do with the layout?

@JohnY: Like the new new project screen

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 14:08
I'm still not sure if I'm a fan of this 2K3 look all these things have...

One REALLY REALLY cool feature I'd appreciate in this (JohnY, take not hehe) its a skinnable feature. I doubt its do-able, but it'd be REALLY nice if we could skin the IDE, for example a brushed alliminium look, etc..

Of course, before all the eye candy is stability. I'd rather have a 1980's looking stable program than a 2003 program that crashed and deletes/corrupts work anyday (hence me reverting to command prompt a lot Hehe).

The homemade thing you mentioned, David T, is the main reason I think I gave up with Blue and Twighlight. There was nothing WRONG with them - they just felt like they'd been made in a bedroom!

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David R
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 15:10
Quote: "The homemade thing you mentioned, David T, is the main reason I think I gave up with Blue and Twighlight. There was nothing WRONG with them - they just felt like they'd been made in a bedroom!"


Buts thats only becuase of all the expensive useless fluff that goes into todays products. Its the same with games. Half-life 2 may beat some home-made FPS because of its expensive art - but when it comes down to it; its the gameplay that matters.

Same sort of thing with IDE's


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 15:33
Hmmm not so sure. You have to feel comfortable with an IDE to work with it.. Its a different set of criterea. I agree that you could pump 1 million pounds into an IDE and it could come out worse that an amateur bedroom product and I also agree that principle works the other way around too.

Nick

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Xolatron old
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 17:08 Edited at: 8th Aug 2005 17:08
Quote: "you could pump 1 million pounds into an IDE and it could come out worse that an amateur bedroom product"

That would be pretty hard to do these days with all the pre-built tools for IDEs. The reason other 3rd party IDEs feel 'homemade' is because they don't have all the standard pre-built type controls commercial IDEs use. Or perhaps it's more that you know about the editors development, and subconsiously classify it as 'not-proffessional', when it really is as good as the Original IDE.

-Xol

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 17:56
Quote: "Or perhaps it's more that you know about the editors development, and subconsiously classify it as 'not-proffessional', when it really is as good as the Original IDE."

True... For all I know - Synergy could be a bedroom project!

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re faze
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 18:19
im with nicholas i like the vb6 editor style rather then vs2003. its too shiny

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HowDo
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 20:07
In the Text Style Window, Will there be way to set the font and size to view source code in.

Or its in some other window I've not found.

I'm not getting you down am I, Ho Look! another fancy Door?
Raven
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 21:39
I disagree David, while this IDE has the look, it doesn't have the feel. Sure it isn't as bad as BlueIDE in this respect, but it is still suffering from the key problem that poorly designed applications do.

The reason things feel low-quality isn't because of the graphics, although this is a nice touch. It isn't because of the features, given some of the best applications aren't the greatest featurewise.

In-fact the issue purely stems from the layout, and design of where everything is. Most Common mistake for developers is possibly the most simple to solve.

Developers want everything right there, exactly at your finger-tips.
Basically the entire application is literally just 1-Click Away. Right there is the most common mistake.
You make the user feel claustaphobic, while the programmer will enjoy the ease of use you gain from the design. Only they and other programmers who have no sense of design will.

This probably explains why Linux and Blackbox is so damn popular throughout universities. I've never met an artist yet who believes in using anything other than MacOS or Windows.

Entirely because of the design. This is also why the original IDE feels very nice to use despite it looking pretty hideous.
You have key elements grouped together rather than on a single space.

The workspace doesn't feel over cluttered, and the first impression of an application is the most important. Just trying to emulate Visual Studio isn't enough, if your not willing to adapt the style to your own personal needs.

Xolatron old
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 00:16
So, Raven, would you say that having all project settings on one panel is not user-friendly (advice please)?
Screenshot link:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_pic.php?i=611572

Thanks, any input is valued

-Xol

David T
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 11:29
Buts thats only becuase of all the expensive useless fluff that goes into todays products

It's a combination. Some is just look, and other bits are more subtle. Often TPIDEs try and cram too much into a small panel on the side of the screen. It's often the little things that can influence you.

I don't know whether there's anywhere that developers learn this stuff but things like buttons always have to be around the same size, whether to consistently put "OK" or "Ok" etc.

Quote: "I disagree David, while this IDE has the look, it doesn't have the feel."


Haven't used it too much - if when there's a new beta out which fixes a few of hte problems I was having I'll try again

(wow - looks like I@ve just written what Raven's written!)

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 11:53 Edited at: 9th Aug 2005 11:54
Raven - Nail on the head there mate!! Thats precisely it.

All the programs I like are not cluttered at all! I cant stand it when programs throw toolbars at you wioth 100,000 buttons on them. Yeah, its great once you've memorizes where everything is (or if you have a index-based mapping system for it), but initially its just not user friendly.

Bugs aside - I like the default IDE. Plenty of editing space, a save and a compile button - all thats needed

Also david is right - consistency is VERY important, although it might not seem it. One of the things I have learned from the site I manage for work is about consistency and how everything just looks so much better if it follows the same "in-house-style"...

EDIT:
@Xolatron; Thats far too much for one page imho. Its like you've taken all 4-5 sections from the default IDE's side panel and wanged and wedged them into one page.

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Raven
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 11:57
Exactly Xolatron. The image you posted (which if you could change to .jpg extension rather than .JPG so I can view using explorer), would be a nightmare for anyone who doesn't understand most of whats going on.

The idea of a good design is to break everything down into layers of what sort of person would be using it. Also grouping things with understandable names.

Effectively you end up with 3 levels of competance.
- None
- Literate / Know-it-All
- Professional

Most people fall into Cat2, but a reasonably large number will also be in Cat1. So you have to cater for this.

The best way to achieve this is actually to have 2 seperate Properties Areas for your project.

Area 1) This area is the quick glance version. Your putting only the key things people will want to change here.

Window Size, Window Title, Fullscreen|Windowed|FullscreenEx

As far as the Executable Type goes, what you want that to be is a drop-down on the Build Toolbar. This would be setup similar to Visual Studio, so the build-types would be Pre-Set project building blocks. The advanced option elsewhere to create your own Build-Type based on the base types is something that would be nice but only a few users would end up using. Hense why your hiding it somewhere out of the way.

As you have it your properties Window itself has just lost most of what it has from normal. So this can now be tucked away underneath the project settings as a small sub-window.

Another point to make is the context of it. For standard programming the context doesn't matter too much, although having it to fill a UDT would be very helpful so that you just fill in the values and it put in the actual code. However for a visual integration of BlueGUI, etc. then you will want to make sure that the properties are contextual to the Window/Control your working on.

As for the main properties, provide users with a number of ways to get to it (right-click -> properties on the solution, or via the menu Project -> Properties). In any case you choose make sure that either the Pop-up Window or Tab is also designed with the user abilities in mind.

It's a common and very good design to use Side-Tabs for this. So they act like a sub-menu style system. Grouping Resources (media), Build Information, Application Information, etc.

Is an essential part of making it useable.

As far as the media itself goes, I would also recommend making the Media and Files using a Tree Based System. However rather than simply showing what you have, layer it.

As I keep repeating, making more manageable groups is a key element to providing a better interface.

Having

File1.dba
File2.dba
Texture1.dds
Model1.dbo

etc.. isn't as easy to ready and navigate as

Solution
|-------Source
|-------|-----File1
|-------|-----File2
|-------Images
|-------|-----Texture1
|-------Mesh
|-------|-----Model1

Also using Icons to represent what they are is another plus.
Further more the reason I'd suggest keeping the Media and Source seperate, is because for Media what you can do is provide an overview of what is in the project. It could also be noted which is included as part of the project build and which will be simply linked from the Hard Disk.

For the Source File, letting the user know which References (DLLs) are being used and the Size would be a very helpful situation.

It would also help users to understand which Functions/UDT/Variables/Arrays are based in each file.
Of course again I would also have another Tree contextual to the source that was currently open so I could quickly search for things.

Keeping everything seperate is a good idea, but also don't be afraid to make more than one method to achieve the same goal. People will apprieciate this given not everyone likes doing things the same way.

Xolatron old
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 18:33
Thanks Raven. I'm working on putting the project settings into a tabbed system like hte Original IDE's. It might take a while though . I'll repost the screenshots as '.jpg'; I didn't notice that - Paint automatically puts the extension in all caps. Quite annoying, really .

-Xol

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 18:40
why does it make a difference?

Windows shouldn't care... I could understand if Linux cared. You just need to make sure your links are correct in terms of case if you use linux.

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Raven
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 19:12
It's not Windows that's the problem. It is how Rich has setup the MIME Settings for PHP on the Server.

Given it works fine in FireFox, he doesn't care if it works fine in other browsers. I fine it highly irritating because I have to save every file from it's php extension.

Xolatron, if you like I can create some mocks to show you a good way of doing the UI for an Editor. The one I was working on a while back those who tested the skinned version loved it.

Despite thier reservations about how I had setup the Main Menu.
It worked much like the Menu in Media Player, was quite nice because you had far more space available.

Xolatron old
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Posted: 9th Aug 2005 21:54
About the .JPG - I use Netscape, never knew that IE didn't like .JPG on these forums; I'll remeber to save in lowercase.

Raven, sure, some pictures would be nice

Thanks,

-Xol

Rob K
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 11:59
Synergy sounds good - I like the idea of a single IDE that works across TGC's product range. Unfortunately bandwidth is somewhat expensive here in France so I won't be able to download the beta until I get home.

I have been working on an improved editor from scratch using C++ / MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes - a framework for creating Win32 applications). MFC is turning out to be a real chore to use though, so if Synergy is very good, I might rethink the project's future direction. I'll make the code available to any interested parties when I get back.


BlueGUI Windows Plugin
Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 12:40
MFC is very bulky and not dated API.
The reason it's so quick and easy normally is because of the Visual Studio MFC Wizard.

You can effectively create controls in a few clicks then code up the interaction. Makes for completely unreadable source though, and you don't feel you have much control over what's going on.

I'd strongly recomment .NET 1.1 to anyone who is working on stuff for Windows nowadays. I mean the only way to make sure people are using .NET is to have more applications that require it, and it's stupid to think that it's never going to take on.

What you could do in WinAPI can be done in minute in MFC. Similarly what can be done in minutes in MFC can take literally seconds in .NET, with more direct control.

You want to change the rendering style of your control.

protected override void {$yourcontrol}_OnPaint(object sender, EventArgs e)
{
// your painting here
}

not to mention it's completely identical from language to language. So you can use what you feel most comfortable with.

Xolatron old
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 01:08 Edited at: 11th Aug 2005 01:09
JohnY, I'm wondering about this line in Synergy's comparison table:
Unicode Support : Full unicode support

Why does DBpro need unicode support? It sounds to me that this was just put there because your syntax highlighting control supports it (http://www.actiprosoftware.com/Products/DotNet/SyntaxEditor/Competition.aspx), just like you have the same ratings buttons as that table.

DBpro project/source files don't support unicode, so why does the IDE need to?

IonRay has all unicode disabled, and I view that as an advantage - no unicode symbols in the IDE will change in the program.

-Xol

David R
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 13:01
Well that's just how you sell a product.

Advertise a load of technical and 'good sounding' features that are absolutely useless


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John Y
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 13:55
Omega Basic and Dark Basic Professional are available in Russian, Japanese and Chinese

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 14:00
Quote: "Why does DBpro need unicode support?"

Because some languages use more than 255 characters - in other words a character can take up 2 bytes.

AtomZ - its got an A. Its got a Z. Now its just needs U
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Xolatron old
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 18:41
Oh, yes... forgot about other languages...

-Xol

Vectrex
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Posted: 11th Aug 2005 21:13
Aehmmm it's me again

Whats about Procedure folding ?? Function Folding is implemented but whats with procedure Folding ??? this would be great and very helpful!!!
Raven
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 16:13
I entirely agree.. the lack of UniCode support is actually a HUGE issue I have with both DBP and the Standard IDE.

Ascii Character Sets are nice and all, but UniCode is far easier to use for multi-lingual applications and is fully supported in Windows 98 onward with Windows 2000 actually using it exclusively, so everything is converted to Unicode anyways.

John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:03
With some luck you guys will get this tonight, otherwise tomorrow. But here are some updates.

Spell Checking as standard

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John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:05
Sticky notes for getting down ideas before they escape you

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John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:07
New options dialog, which also shows the new textbox look

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:09
Is spell checking a built in "thingy" with .NET now?

Whats that screeny for? adding notes to a project?

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John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:10
Nope, spell checking is not built in, I wish it was.

Which screeny?

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:16 Edited at: 12th Aug 2005 19:18
1) so whats your dictionary source?
2) that one that was attached to your last post..

EDIT: TWAT ALERT.. lol.. I posted while you were posts 2 more screenies.. Ignore the screeny question

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John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 19:19 Edited at: 12th Aug 2005 19:20
Quote: " 1) so whats your dictionary source?"


116412 words (combined UK and US English)

Quote: "2) that one that was attached to your last post"


The options dialog. The option panel shown was an option which allows Synergy IDE to automatically enter certain project details for you when you start a new project or when you load one and they are missing.

Edit: No problem

They are just skinned floating windows for keeping notes that are only temporary and not to be saved with the project.

John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 20:05 Edited at: 12th Aug 2005 20:05
Here the editor is checking all of the comments for spelling mistakes. As programmers like writing their own words, you can add your own.

Spell checking is manual and so is completely optional.

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David R
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 21:00
May I ask why the taskbarhas gone strange/been cut off that screenshot?


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David T
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 21:25
I recommend chaning the font on the options dialog (perhps to tahoma?) to make it look more .netsy

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
John Y
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Posted: 12th Aug 2005 22:10 Edited at: 12th Aug 2005 22:45
@David R

To hide my top secret development project

@David T

The options dialog isn't finished (hence the lack of icon), but thanks for the suggestion

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 13th Aug 2005 00:47
I was gonna ask the same thing! Seems quite a lot of effort to hide the time

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Xolatron old
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Posted: 13th Aug 2005 01:26 Edited at: 13th Aug 2005 01:31
.

Is this just coincidence, or is it weird that the when I loaded this page from the forum browse, JohnY's text:
Quote: "To hide my top secret development project"

is covered by a grey rectangle.



When I reload, it works.

(I'm using Netscape)

[EDIT: the top two line breaks are to prevent the blob from overwriting my text!]

-Xol

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Raven
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Posted: 13th Aug 2005 16:24
And that kids is why I don't use Mozilla-based browsers.

IanG
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mozilla is netscape based not the other way round - and i can say that has never occured in my ff here


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Raven
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Posted: 13th Aug 2005 17:11
Ian seriously.. don't get into the whole which is based on what. It makes my head spin.

I understand what is based on what and why, but trying to explain it and you end up in circles. heh

Xolatron old
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Posted: 13th Aug 2005 18:25
Quote: " And that kids is why I don't use Mozilla-based browsers."

Well that's the only problem with Netscape I ever had. Can't setand IE at all.

I just thought it was strange that a grey block happened to be covering text about a secret project .

Besides the problem was probably not Netscape's. At that time I was on an old Windows ME computer

-Xol

John Y
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Posted: 14th Aug 2005 13:07
Do you guys like the look of this login screen?

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Raven
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Posted: 14th Aug 2005 13:39
Not especially so. I prefer the XP-Style. Where it provides users with a little icon that they can choose and enter thier password.

That one woud be better if it fit with the style of the IDE though I guess.

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Posted: 14th Aug 2005 14:33
I like that login screen - it's small and looks good, you don't need the little pictures and names(they always annoy me with xp)


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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 14th Aug 2005 14:36
Why do you need a login to an IDE

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Posted: 14th Aug 2005 14:39
For teams...

AtomZ - its got an A. Its got a Z. Now its just needs U
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