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3 Dimensional Chat / Joker Tank - my first properly UVed model from scratch

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 13:14
Well a few hours ago I decided to learn how to UV with lithunwrap. Im working on a game involving tanks (its a bit hush hush atm, its a commercial venture - yes shisaku still exists but THATS a 3 year project) and I had made myself a tank a while ago so I had something nice to test the engine with, but it was untextured. The tank is a real tank and will be used in the final version.

All the tanks in this game are completly unrealistic. Both in physics and if it comes to it, appearance. For example theres a crazy cat girl who likes to ride a pink tank with a neko face on it whilst screaming bloody murder at everyone XD

Anyway after finally figuring out how to use lithunwrap (thank God for my second monitor, having lith on one side and the 3d view maxed on your other monitor is HIGHLY recommended) I texutred me tank - this is the joker tank:

flatshaded/wires:



and heres a viewport experiance thingy render of the full thing textured:



I did the modeling, the UV and made the texture from scratch including the Joker girl. Yes, she has no pants.

We are looking at 120 polys - I have extreme poly limits because the main premise of the game is multiplayer and with ALOT of players, around 64. She has no bump/normal maps yet, will probably make them in the future

What do ya think?

Van B
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 13:46
I think your off to an admirable start, I wish my first UV job looked anything like as neat as that.

Good work on the low poly mesh - but one thing, square barrels are OTT, maybe extend that to a six side cylinder or something - they just don't blend properly, at least with 6 sides you get a nice shade on the barrel, with a square barrel it looks like a fence post. Cylinder mapping with a cap is nice and easy too.


Van-B

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 13:52
Thanks I have to say now i've done the UV im not a fan of the procedure, I would gladly pass the task on to someone else whenever possiable xD

I may make the barrel a cylinder, the only reason I havnt yet is because in game which is top down the camera is up high enough to get a good view of the people you are supposed to be fighting and the tank is relitivly small all in all and you cant actually tell its square x_X For that matter my nice joker girl decal isnt that viewiable either which is a shame :/ But if a certain game mode im planning takes off then tanks will be seen alot closer up and I will -defintly- be using a cylindrical barrel.

Okay, off to an admirable start is good (thankyou) but from that I read theres more improvments to be made than just making the barrel a cyldiner? I'm completly open to C&C as im not a modler by nature, this and the girl im working on (old post on this board somewhere) are really my only two real attempts at a model (i dont count the spider and the manakin really xD) - by default im a programmer. When it comes to modling I have alot to learn so if you have suggestions for further improvments (bearing in mind the low poly requirments) then please shoot If it helps it look better then im game.

Van B
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 14:12
I'm not sure I have any advice to offer on that, I mean if I had 120 polygons to spend on a tank it'd look just like that, you've managed to keep the polygons under control and it's a neat model.
As you say, it's viewed from a distance, lower poly meshes look better than high poly from a distance because the details look terrible, especially when you get to that scale where the details are often just 1 pixel flickering about and looking terrible as you move, a low poly mesh is much clearer.

Actually in Star Wars, they had several models of the milenium falcon, they'd use different models of different detail depending on the distance to the camera - it's a very similar problem.

It would be a shame if you stopped, because your on a roll - use that tank as a basis for all your tanks, and try to get all your tanks done, even if you don't draw their textures just yet. It's so quick and easy to take a decent model and spawn variations of it, you'd be daft not to capitalise on your new found skills.

Actual drawing of the textures could use a little work. There's a few methods to make tanks look cool really quickly, like using plates with rivets, camo, stuff like that. By doing a whole batch of them at once you can save a ton of work and end up with tanks that all match in style - giving your project an extra element of continuity.


Van-B

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 14:56
Thanks again for the reply ^^

If you had a few more polys, what would you do? I'm playing it safe atm, 120 wasnt the strict limit but it looked quite good as it was so I didnt want to add polys for the sake of it. Like I mentioned the engine will hopfully have alot of tanks running around at once, explosion effects going off, the engine infrastructure supports shaders on the map limbs but I havnt been able to test it yet due to the SDK having trouble with shaders atm - the collision takes a few fps itself, its smooth sliding collision using intersect object. I can probably get away with more polys (hell later I gotta make a mech and theres no way THATS going to fit into 120 polys) if you have some ideas for things that would really make a world of difference

I spent quite a while on the texture, but MOST of that was drawing the girl XD I kinda got carried away. I had no idea what it was gonna look like when i started the texture - first thing I thought was tank. Tank = camo. This is the Joker class tank, jokers = red/black - i want red camo. I think I did an okay job of the camo.. but it was again a first attempt so if you think it needs improving please suggest away Then I thought ahh I want a joker head decal on here somewhere. and I drew it and thought ah i'll start a body.. ah i'll colour it.. hey this will look good as a decal on the front of the tank.. then started colouring and only just managed to stop myself before i started shading her XD She took a while, the original is actually a big picture. I just shrunk her for the tank texture. after I had done all that (camo + girl) I was begining to get a bit of an achey hand (my tablet is awol atm so im stuck drawing with a mouse) and wanted to hurry it along I guess. I tried some plates on the tank skirts as you can see (just about..) but the hatch circle on the top of the turret base is an apauling effort I know.

I guess I should add more detail to it Im very concious about over crowding the texture though. Especially as the model is usually viewed quite small.

Insanity Complex
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 15:27
If I had any comments to add, it would probably be great job...except for one thing. If you notice the joker girl gets cut off by the err...thing by her legs(I don't know what I'm talking about, just looking at the overall look of the tank) so maybe you should size her down just a bit so that she is visible from head to toe. It's not a big deal but I just thought it might make it look a little bit better.

[Previously known as DBPro Newbie]
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Van B
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 15:28
Well, if I was making a low poly tank, and afforded myself maybe 300 polygons or less, then I'd probably construct it like this:

Starting with the tank body, I'd polyline the side view then extrude it - ideally cutting a channel in the middle if possible, so the back is kinda square but the front has a dip in it comming from the base of the turret.

The turret I'd polyline an outline, maybe like a Sherman's turret, you know that unusual shape, I'd try to get that in there for recognition sakes. Then I'd add a barrel with a square base bit and an extra bit at the end. The base needs to rotate up and down, so a block to put the start of the barrel into is a good idea. A little extra detail at the end of the barrel would just be for fun, like a silencer nozzle thingy. Terminology is not my strong point.

Then under the tank I'd have 2 tracks, just solid blocks using polylines again, they can just sit underneath because usually the sides of the tank cover the tracks.

Then I'd nip in the turret's top verts to give a nice slope on the sides and that's pretty much it - all with polylines and would'nt take too long.

I'm not too hot at explaining this stuff, plus I use Rhino which most people have never heard of. It would'nt be a problem to make a quick example tank how I'd do it with more polys, might help me make sense .


Van-B

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 15:38 Edited at: 16th Nov 2005 15:39
Quote: " It would'nt be a problem to make a quick example tank how I'd do it with more polys"


Even I would like to see that because I'd like to get into some vehicular type modeling, and well...any examples wireframed would help me figure out how it should look...etc. but I just noticed, the barrel part of the turret is a bit square, and usually tanks have a spot at the front of the barrel where the barrel is a bit larger in diameter. To make this affect perhaps cut the edges of the barrel in half, then move the points that you just made towards the front of the barrel, connect them, and then extrude-region the new faces at the front? Dunno if it'd work, but in theory it should, I might have to try it when I get home tonight.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 16:00
go for it van, im sure it will help others too

On a related, but different, note - can someone remind me of safe texture sizes for uv mapped objects? My tank UV texture is 512x512. I wanted to make a high quality large one for people who can support it, but the next texture size up that I know is safe is 1024x1024 which is well massive. Is there a safe texture size greater than 512 and less than 1024?

Van B
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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 16:44
No worries, I'll see what I can come up with tonight.

I like to use 1024x1024 textures, because if you go high, you can always go low, but if you go low, going high looks crap. Like if you use 1024x1024 and then resize downto 512x512, it looks better, more detaild, than if you just draw at 512x512, plus your left with a nice big texture for renders and higher spec PC's. It can seriously speed up drawing times too, because you know things won't have to be too tidy if your resizing, not like drawing at the final resolution, which usually means you have to keep it neat. This is especially true when you use a lot of highlighting and shading on a textured base, the little bit of extra freedom a big resolution affords you does make a difference.

For instance, in Lonewolf most of the textures are 512x512, however that's still fairly generous, so I scale down inside the program using a handy little resizer function on lower spec PC's. It's quite cool to just say, set the resolutions to 32x32 and check out the 90's stylee look - handy for finding a balance too before you resize properly for uploading.


Van-B

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 00:05
Oh hey, I'm using Wings, but my suggestion worked with Wings, so it should work with your program. (The Barrel suggestion)

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 09:40
I made the tank yesterday but Rhino decided to eat it - like lost most of the mesh when exporting . Luckily it left me with the turret and barrel, which took the longest so I should get it finished tonight.

I made a 6 sided cylinder and segmented it into 5 bits so I could change the shape of the barrel to better suit a M1, looks pretty cool and not a massive amount of polys.


Van-B

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 21:29
sounds good Im still not completly well so im working slow, but I changed the tanks barrel and added a lil antenna thing to the turret and then moved the turret back a bit. it looks pretty good for such a low poly (still under 200) and i have spent several hours working on the texture today - still not completly finished.

Going to town this time with pretty much every photoshop trick I know - still the same red camo (although i made the alternating camo colours lighter and darker repsectivly because some peopel said it needed greater contrast), added plating (using bump maps in photoshop o.O), rivets, a MUCH better hatch - made a sort of metal grain texture which i overly faintly over the whole thing - you probably wouldnt notice the grain unless you were specifically looking for it but when combined it makes the whole thing just look /better/ than without. At least I think so

More work to do on the texture and i've started drawing a new joker girl decal, much higher quality this time and it will take many hours to finish her, rather than the < 1 hr mouse sketch i did with the other one. The tank texture is also 1024x1024 this time following your advice and i will shrink it when required Will offer high medium and low quality options in game.

Incidently for those that /dont/ like the joker girl decals, skins are selectable in game. You choose the tank, THEN the skin - a version without the decals will be availiable Just each tank has a somewhat phsycotic character assoiated with it and they have custom decals n what not when its their specific version of the tank

Cloggy
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 01:17 Edited at: 18th Nov 2005 08:23
Good model and Excellent texturing. Wish I could draw that well. I fact I wish I could draw as well as my kids and they've only just started school

Anyway, Here's a tank I created tonight. My first attempt at any sort of vehicle. No good at texturing so it's just the model 162 polys, 98 verts.



Modeled in blender 2.37a
Exported as a truespace.cob file into lithunwrap and then exported as a milkshape file. Finally exported as directx(jt) from milkshape, a bit long winded but the best way I could find to preserve normals.

You're welcome to use it if you want.

Cheers,

Cloggy

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Heckno
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 01:20
Sep, I just want to comment on how well your "Joker" proves that low poly + great texture = fantastic.....
Sephnroth
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 16:47
thanks Heckno

Cloggy - nice work! You know im sure I could find a use for that in my game if you are offering Its really well shaped and a good poly count!

Heres an update on the Joker. More texture work to be done still, especially on those damn wheels! The joker girl still isnt finished either, she needs shading as shes only flat coloured atm. Although looking at the decal on the old render and the one im about to post now I almost think I prefer the original joker decal.. well as you can choose skins I can always make both availiable - and this latest joker girl im going to town with so she will make good game/press artwork

Anyway, will post links to the pictures this time as the renders are alot bigger and i dont want to scroll the screen for you more than I already have XD Remember, texture still not finished - let me know what you think so far:

http://www.melted.com/spectural/storage/bts/jokermkII01.jpg
http://www.melted.com/spectural/storage/bts/jokermkII02.jpg
http://www.melted.com/spectural/storage/bts/jokermkII03.jpg

and for those interested heres the flat-colour WIP of the joker girl decal (its a little saucy so if you dont like skin dont look):
http://www.melted.com/spectural/storage/bts/JokerGirlBaseColour.jpg

phew, its taking a while - not helped by the fact im STILL ill and have practically no energy (actually just when i thought i was over the worse of it I woke up today worse than i have been all week, to top it all off its freazing cold here with everything outside coated in frost --)

C&C, as always, welcome

Cloggy
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 17:17
Sephnroth,
You're welcome to use it. I can attach the original .blend file if you want it.

The model is looking good, especially the decal.

Well done.

Cheers,

Cloggy
Sephnroth
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 20:09
Thanks Cloggy

I'm really having second thoughts about the joker girl decal though. It is good. A little /too/ good for a simple decal. I think i've accidently invented one of my games playable characters - I like the character a little too much to just leave her on the front of some tank so shes simply going to have to become playable

Seems my hoster has completly died though, all the pics have blown up and my website isnt responding. Ah well, it should hopfully come back up soon >< Anyone checking to see my work for the first time please check back in 20mins to see if its up, I enjoy receiving comments ;;;;

Cloggy sure post the .blend I dont use blender but I do have it. I got it today infact to test it out for rendering purposes - I have to say that I hate the UI with a new found passion >.>; Even following a tutorial it took me SO long to setup a simple render of a premade model x.x Major kudos for getting around all that and managing to level in it, I hear its very powerful if you can get past the GUI.

All I really need is the ms3d, but as I have blender it cant hurt to have the original blend as well

Question - will this be exclusive rights or shared? IE anyone who is passing by this thread is welcome to the model?

Cloggy
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 20:51
Sephnroth,

I don't really mind, If you want it for yoourself I'll just email it to you, otherwise I'll just attach it in here. Although saying that I already sent it in an earlier post.

Blender isn't that hard to get to grips with. I find it much easier that Milkshape. Everything is accessible with just 1 or 2 keystrokes.

It's definately worth persevering with as I think it is a very powerful piece of software.

Good luck modeling Joker Girl. That's a bit advanced for me

Cheers,

Cloggy
Sephnroth
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 21:04
Its your work, you can decide who gets it If you want to make it availiable for everyone the Kudos, the indie devlopment scene needs more generosity

Only reason I asked is I like to avoid "familier" media in my games if I can help it so when people play they feel like they are getting something a little new. If the model is open for everyone I may consider making some changes - but after further thought even thats not nessiary as I will end up texturing it myself which will make it unique anyway So post away - again well done, even my friend commented on your tank looking nice

Cloggy
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 21:14
Here you go, a zip file with the blender model + the ms3d version, it's yours to do with as you please.

Post a piccy when you get round to texturing it.

Cheers,

Cloggy

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 21:20
Thanks much and i'll be sure to post shots here when I texture it May be a while though! Not too long hopfully but i gotta finish the joker and then I shouldnt forget I have a game to program xD But I have to admit im begining to enjoy this model/texture work - its a nice breath of freshair after a week or two of solid engine programming. So i will probably finish the joker then set streight to uving your tank

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 19th Nov 2005 21:30
Nice tank! I'm also a believer in a higher contrast camo texture - so I've attached a red camo texture. It tiles.

If you want to know how it was made - difference clouds and stamp filters. Several layers of differing opacities. And to tweak the colours later I used hue adjust, colorize. You get tilability for free

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 19th Nov 2005 23:14
Thanks Tinker

Hmm my latest shots of the tank were higher contrast - I guess it needs more then! Nice texture btw, im sure I can find alot of uses for that one xD I make my camo in much the same way, my secret method is out! xD I pick my two colours, render clouds in the areas i want camo using the selector tool, then I use the sponge tool to create the camo - i usually hit ctrl+f to render the clouds several times until i get a nice mix of colour i like

Thanks for comments - working like monkey (er.. working hard) on the joker girl picture doing her shading, I will be sure to post it up when its done ^^

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 20th Nov 2005 00:23
It was my bf who 'discovered' our method for camo.

The stamp filter really is useful though - it generates it with the two colours you have selected for foreground and background and because of the clouds is always tilable. I made quite a nice woodland camo with it with various layers of green and brown.

and I forgot to say - very well done on your first UV unwrapping attempt! It's an 'arcane' skill that most are scared of, so well done for even taking the step to learn. It's the hardest one

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