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FPSC Classic Product Chat / My opinon.

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Salvation
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 03:46 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 03:49
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------------MY OPINON--------------------

As I explore deeper and deeper with FPSC I am more and more annoyed at there blatent way of making you buy there software.

Now surely if FPSC accepted model formats like .3ds or .obj it would be
easier to create models and download them without worry about data loss from file conversion. But wait! If TGC let us have model freedom then there packs wouldnt be just as useful any longer! We wouldn't need there low content packs as a primary source for good models.

Also on the website it says most of FPSC data can be customized through scripting. Then why so few scripting commands? Why is it that data for weapons etc doesn't allow for custom variables etc?
Theres more and more evidence of the fact that TGC are focusing there work so they have tight control over what you do with FPSC.

How bout the multiplayer server which goes on TGC website? Well some of you think of this as an inconveinince as it makes your product look alot less commercial. But have you thought why it is on the TGC website? Sure it apparently helps stop all those eecky IP etc problems when playing multiplayer. But everytime a player goes to the site to connect to a game TGC is getting free advertising for there products.

Blatently Im just annoyed that for a product which has alot of power it is so completely restricted by creators!. Sure we can download the source and edit it if we have DarkBasic oh wait. Thats a TGC program too. Damn. heh.

Im just really annoyed with TGC...its frustrating using this quality of software when it is plagued with shortcomings.
>Im not saying its a bad product. It might just be because of the fact that its the first build outside of the EA version...So maybe all the issues of compaitability will improve in the next release?

What do you all think?

-----
I bite. Watch out
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uman
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 04:19
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I just replied to this in the media forum - thats what I think - now I'm chasing posts.

No need to post it again here despite the fact that some say you posted it in the wrong place - it has to do with media so thats debatable.

Whatever - Dont matter to me I'm a cool kiddy.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 04:23 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 04:31
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Quote: "Now surely if FPSC accepted model formats like .3ds or .obj it would be
easier to create models and download them without worry about data loss from file conversion. But wait! If TGC let us have model freedom then there packs wouldnt be just as useful any longer! We wouldn't need there low content packs as a primary source for good models."


That statement annoyed me so much I didn't even read the rest. .3ds model loading is extremely slow in DB, which is what the program was written with. Then, everyone would complain about how slow their games were and how long they took to load.

Based on the prices of TGC products, I feel no need to complain about things like that. Spend more money if you want more features. The thing is, I don't need useless features. Adding the ability to load 100 different model types would just make your executables much larger and slower.

And, if you have any complaints at all, edit the engine yourself.
Quote: "Blatently Im just annoyed that for a product which has alot of power it is so completely restricted by creators!. Sure we can download the source and edit it if we have DarkBasic oh wait. Thats a TGC program too. Damn. heh."


DBP is a great program. If you don't know how to use it, that's your problem. Frankly, I'm impressed that they released the source code. That way, there are no limits to the games you can make with FPSC. Anything you complain about can be fixed yourself.

Let me guess, you want DBP for free, right? While they're at it they could throw in Paint Shop Pro 8 and 3DS Max 7 in for free too, since you'll need both of those. Or Character Shop. Or Cartography Shop. Hell, they should just give it all away.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
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uman
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 04:38 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 04:49
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There are limits to the games you can make with both DB Pro and FPSC of course there are as with any engine. Saying that a game engine has no limits is just completley incorrect - and not at all a sensible statement to make. You have been in the DB forum too long me thinks. You just cant do what you like with any engine yet existing and never will achieve that.

Someone like to point me in the direction of even a demo for a top notch commercial FP shooter made with an indie engine? A nice big outdoor one with a load of highly intelligent 12 legged enemies running around I cant outwit would be nice - Thought not.

FPSC has a great deal of limitation which is why users continue to find it difficult to make games with it source code or not.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 05:26
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Quote: "Now surely if FPSC accepted model formats like .3ds or .obj it would be easier to create models and download them without worry about data loss from file conversion. But wait! If TGC let us have model freedom then there packs wouldnt be just as useful any longer! We wouldn't need there low content packs as a primary source for good models."


For the past few issues of the monthly newsletter the FPSC section has listed site after site where people are selling or giving away for free their own content packs. If they can manage to create models that work in FPSC it's obviously not limited to just 'us'. To date hundreds of compatible models have been made by people in the community. Any decent 3D package will save in a suitable format, even the cheap ones (Milkshape, etc). 3DS and OBJ files are created for 3D modelling packages and renders, they were never optimised or even intended for use in games when created many years ago. If you want to use them, convert them first, or just don't build the model in that format to start with. FPSC is a DirectX application - .X is the DX file format, so we use it. It's no more sinister than that.

Quote: "But have you thought why it is on the TGC website? Sure it apparently helps stop all those eecky IP etc problems when playing multiplayer. But everytime a player goes to the site to connect to a game TGC is getting free advertising for there products."


How exactly? Please show me where a TGC ad pops-up if you connect to a MP game.

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Salvation
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 06:10 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 06:43
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Quote: "How exactly? Please show me where a TGC ad pops-up if you connect to a MP game."


I’m not saying advertising in that sense, I mean however that by having it link straight back to TGC when using multiplayer the product (Game) is stating that it is made with FPSC. Thus advertising a) it was made with FPSC and b) The TGC site in general. Maybe if you allowed users to chose wether they wanted there game to use multiplayer on the TGC site or just by connecting via lan/ip?


Quote: " FPSC is a DirectX application - .X is the DX file format, so we use it."


Again, I was not saying that it was bad to use .X, I was just stating that it would be understandable if other formats were also compatible with FPSC.

Quote: "Let me guess, you want DBP for free, right? While they're at it they could throw in Paint Shop Pro 8 and 3DS Max 7 in for free too, since you'll need both of those. Or Character Shop. Or Cartography Shop. Hell, they should just give it all away.
"


Hell. That just made me laugh. Your totally missing the point. Also the packages I buy to run on my computers cost thousands of dollars. Updating software such as Macro Flash, Macro Dream, Shockwave Licensing, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe CS, Max and various other high-end software is extremely expensive. I’m not worried about the cost here.

Quote: "Based on the prices of TGC products, I feel no need to complain about things like that. Spend more money if you want more features. The thing is, I don't need useless features. Adding the ability to load 100 different model types would just make your executables much larger and slower.

And, if you have any complaints at all, edit the engine yourself."


Okay you make me laugh again.
One: Since when was the fact that you don’t need "useless" features mean that everyone else doesn't deserve them. Yes I am prepared to buy a more advanced FPSC for more money. Id be willing to go at least around $500 if the product suited. Yet Again money is not the issue here.

Two: 100 Models? I’m not talking about such a ludicrous amount of model formats but just a larger selection. Hell Id be happy with five. A database would come in handy when working with FPSC as well.

Three: Edit the source? From the sounds of things I don’t think you realise how hard it would be to edit the source without having a complete understanding of every little variable, syntax and tiny piece of code in the source. Editing source code isn’t as easy as 1 2 3 magic. I hope you realise this?

I’m not trying to offend anyone. FPSC IS a great program, one of the best indi dev engines there are. I’m just saying maybe if there was a FPSC General and a FPSC Advanced?

And just a side note for Cash Curtis II:
Quote: "That statement annoyed me so much I didn't even read the rest"


Obviously you did. And next time keep true to your statement and just click the little x icon in the top right of your browser. Don’t worry with a little effort you should find it. That way you wont talk about things you don’t empathize.

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uman
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 06:56 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 07:13
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Simple models such as boxes and such like are one thing.

Another is...

It certainly is difficult for many users like myself to get new entities such as character models and perhaps to a lesser extent weapons into FPSC because of the particular file formats used amongst other things necessary and there are not currently at least many options from anywhere to make that any easier. So in that instance most users will be restricted to TGC supplied media, with little other option.

I had personally read the post by Salvation as a request that FPSC support a wider range of model options so that such difficulties as this faced by users as has been spoken of here at the forum previously by users wanting to use their own character models and perhaps more might be eased.

Currently as far as I know to get your own character in to FPSC you have to own Max and Character Studio at the very least or you have no other option but to purchase Character models from elsewhere - currently in the main TGC which are not your own (original type) models - defeating the object of the request for more model type support.

Quite obviously in the case of other model types other than things like characters the file formats and progs you need to work with them have less importance as the tools are easily available to most to make or convert your own models suitably to work with FPSC.

That really cannot be said justifiably in the case of Characters and they are the mainstay of FP shooters.

Ask people what they want most and users include many varied things - though they all want Characters.

Personally I like the .x file format its very good an excellent model type and choice for FPSC - however its not the industry standard - 3DS is and is editable in a wide variety of programs.

Some programs just do not handle some model formats well...

Supplying media in both x. file and 3DS versions is a good idea and I personally appreciate that when purchasing models which gives users a wider choice in the programs they can edit content in before saving out or conversion to .x file if necessary for FPSC use.


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transient
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 08:09
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3ds format is a bit archaic. I don't really see the point of adding it to FPSC but if there was a demand for it I wouldn't complain either.

I've gotten characters into FPSC without using Max but admittedly it's not easy, and I've yet to test them fully.

I think this post is symptomatic of much of the hard-core whinging on these forums - someone who hasn't really taken the time to fully test the product yet still regards themselves as an expert.

The "TGC are rip-off artists that are just chasing your money" routine is getting a bit tiring too. It's just such a blatantly noobish attitude.

FPSC isn't perfect, but it's cheap, accessible and simplifies many of the more tedious aspects of gamemaking.

Maybe it simplifies them too much in some instances (i.e decals), but as a V1 product it is to be expected that certain aspects of it would be WIP.

I've got a feeling that this isn't the last of these kinds of posts - poor TGC.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
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Jiffy
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 08:11 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 08:12
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Okay, this is insane to the point that I couldn't bare reading anymore tripe.

You really do have no idea what your talking about, do you? I can guarentee you that the comment about having a link back to TGC is completely unjustified. Where is this mysterious link? How is it, that in my 14 multiplayer games I have never once seen a link back to TGC? Your multiplayer game being hosted on the TGC site? Wha!? You host multiplayer games on your IP, or over LAN (LAN is to my recollection, may not be the case).

If you have the money to buy a dozen expensive apps, go for a more powerful, expensive engine. As Rich said, .x is designed for games and is one of the more popular model formats in DBP.

Salvation, if you really think that FPSC has this many problems, why bother posting on these forums? I, personally, don't like flamers, and I try to keep my posts down to the nicer tone. But really, I can't say I even remotely get where you are coming from. TGC is never mentioned in the game itself (with the exception of "FPSC-Game.exe" for the process, but that hardly advertises TGC). Look, we can debate this all night and I could be dead wrong, but I really can't be bothered. It's 2 AM over here and I'm tired.

Good night.


"I hate erecting my tree, my whole family always wants to join in and all the balls fall around the place." - Zotoaster Merry Christmas!
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Sunflash
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 08:27
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Quote: "Blatently Im just annoyed that for a product which has alot of power it is so completely restricted by creators!. Sure we can download the source and edit it if we have DarkBasic oh wait. Thats a TGC program too. Damn. heh."


FPSC was created in DBPro, thus it's kinda obvious that you would have to edit the source code in it. What did you want to do? Edit it in VB?

Don't worry, there isn't (as far as I know) a conspiricy with this
I actually like how TGC made FPSC with DBPro, it shows how powerful DBPro really is!

When FPSC develops enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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tpfkat
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 09:58
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@cash curtis: you said "DBP is a great program. If you don't know how to use it, that's your problem. "
i disagree, tgc advertise dbpro as fast and easy to use,but there is no actual documentation that a newbie to the language can use,i bought dbc many years ago and had no net connection so where was the help i needed,definatly not from tgc.

now ive spent a long time hunting around the different programs and learning files i actually enjoy dbp but a beginner would probably just shelve it.
fpsc is very limited in what it can do,fo an extra £20 you can buy 3dgs v6 which is not limited,comes with great book for learning very fast and is a very powerful peice of software.
i think db has a good hold in the market but sadley will lose out over the long run becuase it is not easy to use, unless of course you now spend even more money on the new book that comes out,which is only the first chapter,so more money is needed.
also 3dgs comes with model editors and level editors as part of the package,dbpro and fpsc do not,you have to shell out yet more money for these things.
now writing programs was not meant to be a cheap thing to do,big companys spend £1000's on software and put a lot of work into them,its not easy i agree,but why does 3dgs which also has a massive following,and many commercial games have been written in this,manage to give everything in one package????
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Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 10:19
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Since when is it TGC's responsibility to teach newbies how to program?

It's supposed to be a hobby that you learn, anyone who wants results instantly with no effort should really just stay away from this forum, there's nothing for them here.

The DB community have always provided help and tutorials to aid newbies, that's because we'd rather that TGC centered their efforts on staying afloat and improving DBPro and their other products. That's how this community works, and it's worked for years.

I'm not sure what people were expecting from FPSC, maybe a doom3 engine for that price, or how about the source code to HL2? - maybe that would meet those lofty expectations, along with absolutely every possible texture and model and character. That way people would never need to learn anything or have any skills, and they would'nt need to come along here and lay a few mental turds on the nice clean carpet. This part of the forum was actually showing signs of maturing too .


Van-B

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uman
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 15:59 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 17:12
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transient,

The point about 3DS is it may be a bit archaic, its still the most widely used and comapitbale format around in gamemaking and is what TGC themselves have used as their media creation tool and compatibility with that is what I am talking.

I dont suggest FPSC use it.

TGC do want peoples money and quite rightly so.

This is still a mature forum which is why it accommodates all opinions and should do so without resort to agressive responses to posts good or bad thats part of maturity.

Nothing much different yet in this thread than you cant see at any game engine forum.

Van B

Results instantly - you can have that - its called FPSC - happy click and play everyone.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 16:27 Edited at: 9th Dec 2005 16:30
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I don't consider it anyone's responsibility to do anything at all for me. I found DBP, downloaded a couple of games, downloaded the trial version, and played around with it for a while. I also tested out a couple of other game oriented programs at the same time.

In the end I chose DBP, not because of the claims on the box (which, for advertising purposes, are all true enough), but because of what it could do and how it did them. I then began programming with it.

I feel bad for people that don't take the time to understand something they're buying. They'll be dissapointed. Just because something is "easy" doesn't mean that the knowledge of how to use it will jump out of the box at you. I tried the trial version of FPSC. Nice enough program. I'm not going to buy it, though, as I'd have no real use for it.

Quote: "Three: Edit the source? From the sounds of things I don’t think you realise how hard it would be to edit the source without having a complete understanding of every little variable, syntax and tiny piece of code in the source. Editing source code isn’t as easy as 1 2 3 magic. I hope you realise this?"


I never said that, either. Assuming anything is "1 2 3 magic" is setting yourself up for failure. I found the source code easy enough to follow, well structured. I printed it out and looked through it. Certainly possible to tweak it to your needs, if not rewrite it.

You shouldn't assume that coding is as hard for everyone as it is for others. There are some very talented people here. However, it seems reasonable to assume that those people probably are not the target consumers of FPSC, and therefore would not have the same concerns.

Good luck.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 16:28
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------------MY OPINON--------------------
people like you shouldent post stuff like that.

go buy another game engine...

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uman
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 17:13
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Quote: "Good luck"


Thank You - I need it.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 18:35
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Quote: "I’m not saying advertising in that sense, I mean however that by having it link straight back to TGC when using multiplayer the product (Game) is stating that it is made with FPSC. Thus advertising a) it was made with FPSC and b) The TGC site in general. Maybe if you allowed users to chose wether they wanted there game to use multiplayer on the TGC site or just by connecting via lan/ip?"


I think your definition of 'advertising' is a little bit whacked in the head, but it's not worth going there because obviously the fact that we made it easy for people to host MP games without having to run their own servers (for the player handling) isn't seen as a benefit to you, even though it's transparent and doesn't display FPSC anywhere (or TGC for that matter).

Quote: "Again, I was not saying that it was bad to use .X, I was just stating that it would be understandable if other formats were also compatible with FPSC."


Perhaps, but at the end of the day the models will be converted internally into an X like structure anyway, so for every extra format supported you'll add the time required to load and convert those models internally onto the start-up of your game.

If you want to snag models off the 'net and expect them to just work (even when most of them were probably never even designed for games) then what is needed is a well featured model conversion program.

Sadly, these really don't exist, beyond a few very expensive apps such as Polytrans and Deep Exploration - and even they have issues! 3DS is a massively esoteric file format that has undergone numerous changes and been bastardised beyond belief over the decades it's been around. It was never designed for games, and while a basic 3DS to X convertor is supplied free with DB/DBPro and is easily found elsewhere on the Internet, they will only ever have a limited success. Personally I think it would be dangerous to build this basic 3DS to X conversion into FPSC and then advertise the fact it can load 3DS files - when we know full-well that lots just won't display as expected.

If we had wanted to lock you into using models that only we can supply, we would have done so, but we didn't - and it's obvious from the sheer amount of content coming out that other people have grabbed onto this ability with much zest.

The issue of character modelling was addressed with the release of the bipeds in different formats here on the forum.

The rest of your comments are nothing to do with me, so I'll leave it at that.

Cheers,

Rich

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Vlad
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 18:49
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Quote: "Yet Again money is not the issue here"


Great, instead of complaining, pay a 3D artist to make your models.

Case closed. Isn't that simple.

FPSC is worth what it's paid for. There's no hidden agenda or anything else. It is what it is, if there is no issued regarding money, well, buy an engine that fits your needs, pay a professional modeler to make your models, or, if you model, buy a good software that can provide the extra funcionality you need.

What exactly is the problem? I'm missing something here.

V

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 19:04
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I think all he was (originally) asking for was for FPSC to support some different model formats to make importing other stuff easier. Which is a perfectly valid request, and not worthy of flaming / complaints from other people here.

If he hadn't put such a TGC conspiracy theory twist on it, it would have been received differently, but instead again TGC are the evil corporate out to crap over the poor end users, and every possible decision made re: FPSCs design is to thwart your game making skills.

Or some such nonsense anyway.

Of course if that isn't what was meant, a poor choice of words were strung together up there, to say the least.

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Vlad
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 19:20
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Well, everything that is administrated by someone named Richard or Ricardo or some other Ric like name is evil. Everyone knows that.

Signed: Ricardo Vladimiro

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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=ChrisB=
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I feel hot, i'm going to take this stupid jaket off.

Are you about to rock?

Then [b]I SALUTE YOU!!!
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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 9th Dec 2005 21:32
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4 Words:

Welcome To Game Programming!

-This...is my boomstick!
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=ChrisB=
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Five words: Cellbloc Srudios is PIMPED OUT! (in a good way)

Are you about to rock?

Then [b]I SALUTE YOU!!!
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uman
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Posted: 10th Dec 2005 02:27 Edited at: 10th Dec 2005 02:28
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Quote: "The issue of character modelling was addressed with the release of the bipeds in different formats here on the forum."


Albeit being a closed question as far as TGC is concerned perhaps I am not sure that this is in fact the case, by that I mean I am not sure that many users have found that these releases are effective for many users in the intended purpose as yet anyway for numerous reasons.

I may be incorrect and there may be a lot of users working away somewhere getting lots of new Characters into their games that I am unaware of or not as the case may be - I am waiting to see some screen shots or games made with the new Characters in.

I know myself and many others are doing their best to achieve this.

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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 10th Dec 2005 03:10
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like me


my trailer sucked...i put really horrible footage in it...

but ive got some aliens and stuff.

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uman
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wheres your trailer?

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Salvation
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Posted: 10th Dec 2005 06:37
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I think Richard Davey knows what I meant to say. All I was trying to say was some of the more basic features to use FPSC with other software modes could be improved. I never meant to make it sounds like TGC was a massive corp trying to take over the world or anything. Though re-reading my post I see that I used a poor way of expressing what I was trying to say. All in all my main point was just that will there ever maybe be two versions of FPSC? So you could have your Click-and-Play and then your more advanced which came with more features?

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Cellbloc Studios
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I'm working as fast as I can!

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BULLSHOCK 2
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lol

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Salvation
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hehehe ^_^

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Rockdrala
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Posted: 19th Dec 2005 10:03
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I dont know if Rich would agree with me or not, but Salvation im going to give you an example of what I did... I wanted my microsoft outlook exchange 2003 to play a java banner that rotated my favorite models at the top corner nude while im checking my email. I decompiled it, added lines of the code and the pics of my favorite babs... then recompiled and now my email checking is a chore more worth looking forward to now.

Now keep in mind, im a mcse... Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer and im very familiar with EULA and the rules regarding reverese engineering. But you know what... I didnt make my Outlook Exchange 2003 dial a cellphone through hyperterminal and set off a bomb somewhere... all i did was put my girls in there. What im trying to say is, some things are acceptable... i dont plan on Selling my edited outlook exchange so Microsoft wont come beating down my down cause I put some hot chics in there.

If you want FPSC to do a lil more, put in there... but if its something serious like activating a hyptrm, then you should probably ask TGC first

Those who fly low hurt least when they fall...
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