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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Felling slightly misled.

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incense
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 13:43 Edited at: 17th Apr 2007 17:41
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I feel as though I have been misled and tricked into buying software that doesnt everything that it implied that it could do. I understand that TGC had a launch date for FPSC. That makes no difference. It implied that it created first person shooter games that could be marketed. It simply is not true. They have not posted one patch to fix the countless bugs that are in FPSC. Instead they are leaving it up to thier customers. Dont get me wrong, it is still the best one yet. It just seems that they were more concerned about getting it out than if it did everything that it has implied that it can do. Lift switches that dont work, not one vehicle that is ready for use, Certain types of walls that will not let doors go all the way through and the list goes on. Im not making a legal case out of it. Im just asking that the TGC team issue some patches that will fix the issues. I will not be so quick to purchase version2 if and when it comes out. I will firstly check the forums and see what the bugs are. As it is I will just fight with it to get the results I need. I was just hoping that someone was going to take responsibility for something they sold and fix it. Thats all.

Thanks for for the work that you have done. Please finish it.


Edit:
At the time that I posted this it was true. However TGC has done a really good job of issuing patches for FPSC that have really fixed alot of what I had issues with.

Good work TGC!!!

The person that now knows the most started with many questions. Patients and tolorance are the keys to the passage of knowledge. FPSC is Getting better. Now if we can just keep the ball rolling.
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Vlad
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 14:07
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I must say I agree with you at some point. The main FPSC site is misleading. I never considered FPSC to make a commercial game. My objective was simple: to achieve a presentable demo. And I feel that FPSC does not offer what I need to do it, so I changed courses and left FPSC to some better days.

I also agree when you say that the bugs are nowhere near being addresed, at least that I know of, making FPSC as a whole a problem if you want to take it more deeply.

It's still a good prototype tool and learning tool, for game designers, level designers and even coders. But it's lacking the problem solving, being save and load, by far, the most problematic for a commercial release and really taking the sentence "make and sell your FPS games" nothing more than a marketing lie (sorry for the tough words TGC, I really appreciate your effort, but it's true)

Neverthless it does most of what's intended and maybe, just maybe it can evolve to something better. But this weigth should not be on the community's shoulders, but on TGC.

V

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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transient
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 16:15 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 16:20
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Here we go again.....

There's been no patch because the software hasn't been out for nearly long enough, and they've been working on a patch for DBPro.

I could go on, but why bother.

The whingers never achieve anything in the indi/mod scene anyway.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
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uman
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 16:58 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 16:58
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As you say here we go again. Unfortunately its only as there is a measure of truth in whats being said and some individuals are always like myself going to be prepared to speak their mind and some express their opinions more strongly than others.

I am afraid that will never change - no matter who wishes that to be not so - it takes all sorts to make a world thank heavens.

Those that dont like people that comment about FPSC lack of completeness often have harse feelings towards the individuals and their comments.

You should actually look at these comments in a critical way in as much as it is a sign that the product is and will not achieve the kind of support from indie gamemakers that it might otherwise quite rightly deserve if it were somewhat improved to a stable condition at least.

People speaking in the tone as in this threads initial posters simply show that the product fails in meeting the basic needs of many indie game makers when it could have done so.

One cannot speak of the future as FPSC future is completely unknown.

Currently the product is available and dont expect any fixes or improvements until they are a reality - they are not and thus you are very much on your own with the product as is. That is apparent and currently the reality.

To expect all purchasers and users to conclude after using the product for some time that its a kind of game engine that will meet with their needs in making games amd raise it in their comments to any level of professionalis without some harsh critism is in itself also very unrealistic.

I do know that all game engines need users if it is to succeed and progress - losing potential users is always a sad thing to happen - it weakens the chances of the product being futher developed for all - no matter what their opinion - making those genuine improvements we all want to see less of a possibility.

Here comes the Smiley...

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 17:23 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 17:25
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I do not feel misled.
I can and will sell a commercial game with FPSC.
Their statement was a fact, even if my game doesn't meet your personal standards.

Sure I wish I had a save/load feature working, but I can make a game without it.
This is for First Person Shooters, you can't save a real battle.
So if anything, the lack of a save/load makes it more realistic.
Anything can be good or bad depending on the perspective.

I am satisfied with FPSC.
For those who are not, then I am happy to see you move on as long as you take your complaints with you.
Nobody here wants to here any more whinnning about the save/load.
We've all moved past that.
We all know the next version will have it!
Big deal.

We wanted FPSC early, and TGC complied .... THANKS TGC!!!

Now I can learn aboout all the products features and its unique scripting language while I wait for "the real V1" to be finished.

Or I can even take the source and modify it now with the release of DBPro 5.9 and the FPSC Source.

What other Engine gives their source code to the users, and have a License that can compare to TGC's?

FPS Creator is the best Game Engine in the World for anyone wanting to make 3D Games without spending a fortune in Licensing and/or Royalty Fees.


I'm not trying to argue, I just felt someone might like to see another perspective.




Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 17:23
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Lee is just like us, once he finishes a project he wants to start another - it's just the way it is.

Now before anyone starts getting their soap box out again let me stress that it's known that FPSC needs debugging, but TGC need to expand a little first I think, before FPSC users will see the benefits. Lee, as TGC's chief developer should be developing, not debugging, because that's how a company grows and that's how people get the products they want (in the end). Anyone abandoning FPSC due to lack of updates this early in the game is basically an impatient git who'd never achieve anything with it anyway.


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
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KeithC
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 17:31
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Wow, an impatient 'git'; that's a good way to address your customers.

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 17:33 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 17:37
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It is my understanding Van that FPSC is not finished.
The Save/Load was intended to be in the original program.
I even remember Richard saying something about he wished people wouldn't spread the rumor that there won't be a V2.

Again, not trying to argue.
But both of our posts were at the same time.



lol@Keith

Van's cool.
The real truth is never nice.

lol





Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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Vlad
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 18:35
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Quote: "Lee is just like us, once he finishes a project he wants to start another - it's just the way it is."


Actually, it's not, sorry. Projects are finished when they are finished not when debugging is still needed. This is a whole new trend that is helped with Internet: patching. I remember the days where software was delivered in a finished form and I'm proud to say I meet those standards.

Quote: "Now before anyone starts getting their soap box out again let me stress that it's known that FPSC needs debugging, but TGC need to expand a little first I think, before FPSC users will see the benefits."


The company where I work expands every single year, a lot in a small country because our projects are finished in time, right after debugging and project delivery. Users, present and future, don't want faulty software. I completely understand what you are saying but it's not good. Custmores paid to have the benefits of a finished product Van B, not a non-debugged one mate.

Quote: "Lee, as TGC's chief developer should be developing, not debugging, because that's how a company grows and that's how people get the products they want (in the end). "


I agree, but someone should be debugging, although that's TGC's internal business.

Quote: "Anyone abandoning FPSC due to lack of updates this early in the game is basically an impatient git who'd never achieve anything with it anyway."


I don't think anyone abandoned FPSC after buying it. They may have paused it. Still, if they did, you shouldn't call them impatient gits and assuming they can't achieve anything in FPSC because they found the software didn't meet their expectations, because if it didn't they are even entitled to a refund you know?

Quote: "The real truth is never nice."


Yes it is, neglectable even, but only to those who are aware of it.

V

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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uman
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 19:25 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 19:39
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Opinions - well time will tell which indie engines the users of each can complete differing kinds of games with.

In terms of FP shooter games theres not a lot of professional complete games made with any of them currently and non with most and that includes FPSC nor any TGC product as far as I am aware whatever the period of its existance.

In any instance you can only speak of the past or present as the future is - well just that - it dont exist yet and in the future anything can happen - most everyones going to do something great in the future - me too.

If you can make a finished complete game with FPSC now thats great I am sure there more talented individuals than I who will put a great deal of hard work into their gamemaking efforts and may be successful in that aim. I do hope so and look forward to seeing some successful titles published - the developers of which will I am sure will revceive our admiration - they will deserve it.

As to the debate I rest my case and I will come back later, much later and see what the status of development with FPSC has achieved.

In the mean time I have a lot of difficulties to overcome on my own road to game completion with FPSC or anything else - that road is very rocky, far from helpful or ideal - so wish me luck as I wish the same to all hopeful gamemakers.

And just to round off - After a year working with it - In trying to get a new character into FPSC I just lost my installation - cant run FPSC any longer - place some default ground tiles and a player marker - run test and crash - no more levels run so looks like a major re-installation if I can recover this.

Just what people sometimes get a bit miffed about - I can understand that.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 19:54
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Quote: "Anyone abandoning FPSC due to lack of updates this early in the game is basically an impatient git who'd never achieve anything with it anyway."


I do think a mod should carefully choose his/her words.....

FPSC was released with a number of huge bugs that should have never been, makes you wonder how good the beta team is or if TGC listens to the beta team carefully. With these major bugs the release should have been delayed until the bugs were taken care of. It's as simple as that.

The full release of FPSC is over 2 months old, that is more then enough time to release a patch. I do own a number applications and some of them manage to release their first patch (if needed) within a week.

You could create a good game with FPSC now if you wanted to, but it's more then likely that one of the bugs will stop your final build. Take the story zone bug for example.... for most of us the story zone will a very neccesary feature in our games. BUT it cannot be used at all when building a game with more multiple levels. It will simply crash your game. We all know that, TGC knows it.

They could have fixed that one (and many others) already weeks ago....

My first project is complete ready, but cannot be build or released due to a number of major bugs.

I'm not even sure if TGC takes the development of FPSC that serious anymore. None of the development team is showing his/her face around here and just confirming a bug and letting us know their working on a solution.

At times FPSC already feels like an abandoned application already. Communication with customers is a must, even if most of them are kids. Showing in one way or another that you take customers serious and care for their problems, is a must. TGC fails to do these things big time.

And now with this mod attitude one really start to wonder if FPSC is a serious product or just a nice way to make some money..... I do hope I'll be proven wrong soon!

MegaMusic Pack 01.... 31 original soundtracks for your games!
http://www.aeilkema.dds.nl/mega/index.html
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uman
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 20:15 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 20:17
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I cant argue with any of that except perhaps the last paragraph and the refer to the money aspect as they wont make as much of that if the product is badly flawed - the indie game making community is well aware of the standing of all the engines and most will stay away from FPSC as it is. Plenty of normal people to sell to retail though I guess.

Still I am not using FPSC anyway now even though I may want to till I can get it to work at all and get over the 118 runtime error if thats possible - no luck so far. I have enough probelms if it is working without this I can tell you.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 20:24
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Don't get me wrong though.... I think FPSC is an excellent effort, that unfortunally may be destroyed by bugs and currently lack of support. That's a real shame!

MegaMusic Pack 01.... 31 original soundtracks for your games!
http://www.aeilkema.dds.nl/mega/index.html
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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 20:27
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Well, I am still here, as are some of the BETA team.

Are you about to rock?

Then [b]I SALUTE YOU!!!
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 20:40
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So what happened? How could some of these bugs have slipped through the mazes? Some of them are to big to overlook.

Just some background perhaps.... I've been a (paid) beta tester for a number of major and well known software companies in the 3D world and none paid for some others (gaming engines included). Beta testing can be stress, fun, annoying and rewarding. But, I haven't seen any of the products I've been involved in being released with such major flaws. None of them were perfect, but all pretty stable when released, without major shortcomings and flaws.

Can't say that of FPSC, still feels like a beta release at times.

MegaMusic Pack 01.... 31 original soundtracks for your games!
http://www.aeilkema.dds.nl/mega/index.html
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uman
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 21:30 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 21:35
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=ChrisB=

There are still some ardent FPSC fans like you and myself around - despite being somewhat critical of the product. For how long I dont know - the question is are any of us actually making any progress making games - In my instance Im stuck and a a forced stop not of my choice - with no test run of levels and a 118 error - so not any longer makeing any progress it seems.

Benjamin A,

I was a Beta Tester too and for your clarification - not many bugs that I am aware of were unknown though I am sure there are always some show up on a vast array of diferent systems as will always be the case that did not show up in during testing with a restricted user base. This is likely. Many additional features and functions too were requested, some obvious ones like Save/Load - all issues, bugs and features/functions were prioritised by TGC.

Whatever the condition of the product once a release date was seen presumably as a commercial necessity the actual condition was then again presumably seen to become irrelaevant - meeting the release date becoming the overiding priority.

At least thats a fair outline of how I see things not being privy to any futher information available to TGC and the inner circle thinking........even if I was I could not say such here.

Again only TGC could give you any real confirmation of any of this and I may well be incorrect from their understanding. Just my brief view on the history of FPSC since I have been using it.

Whatever the situation its status was and is soley in the hands of TGC. Whatever FPSC is - is what TGC made of it. Currently it does not matter anyway as the past is irriversible - what does matter is where if anywhere FPSC and its users can go from here and again that is soley in the hands of TGC as I see it.

Helpful it might be if users had some occasional indication of that from the developers.

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Van B
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 22:57
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I really don't see how what I said is so bad. I mean if you give up on a product like FPSC then who looses out? - you!, I don't know how many times it needs saying, but I'm here as a moderator, none of you are my customers - I'm here to keep the place tidy. Anything I post is my opinion, if you don't like it then please don't bore me with stories about why I should care.

All we ever see here is complaints, yeah, like that ever got anybody anywhere.

Did none of you think maybe that your too old for FPSC and should be actually coding instead?


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
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CBStudios
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 22:59
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Show me ONE piece of software that is not buggy and I will send you a 6 pack of pepsi or beer. I feel that it is a bit misleading but yet it is not misleading, let me explain

On one hand you cant make a commercial game with this engine out of the box. Its simply not possible

On teh other hand if you are detemined, and have the desire you can make a commercial game with it. All you have to do is have the right skills in modeling, texturing, and such. I for one think this engine is perfect for someone who does not know jack about making a game, I mean cmon where else can you get a engine for less then 50 bucks and be able to publish commercially if you want without recourse to the engine developer.

Yes I know my grammer sucks but I got more across..............
I hope
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 23:05 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 23:06
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CBStudios

print "hello world"
end

or

class Wurld {
public static void main(String MMR[]) {
System.out.println("Hello World");
}
}

or

int main() {
cout>>"Hello World"
}

I think I messed up on C++...

Ben A, don't diss Van B, he would rather be in DBP where people behave...


Van B... Coding is evil, you have to do 1 thing, then another, and another, and pretty soon your 50 and have nothing to show for it...
but then again, programming is much more powerful.
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CBStudios
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 23:14
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I should sat full program
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 23:33 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 23:34
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define "full program"

Plenty of programs are "bugless" if you work on them long enough...
The problems with engines is the fact that they are non-specific. so Engines most always produce bugs.
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Vlad
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 23:59
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FPSC is specific hence the name FPSC.

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 00:04 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 00:04
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Looks at Vlad...
Seriously, don't talk...

Engines try to account for millions of possiblilitys with no knowledge of their use.
True Programs know what they are built for and thus have better run times.
You have less redundant code, no redundant variables, scripts are hard coded (much faster)...

Don't ask any more until you look up a few things, but this is a truth.
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Vlad
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 00:09
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Sorry I missed a smilie there, so you didn't get my point.

V

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 00:14
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Not true that all we ever see around here is complaints.

I like FPSC and I dont like it - I like the good things about it and say they are good - like the AI - I dont complain about it. But there are things that are not good and I say so - thats seems fair to me.

Like recently I posted some screen shots so I can say in pics - look how good this product is.

Today I have a bug/crash that stops me working indefinately until and if I get a fix so not so good a programme today as I cant make a game with it of any kind at all. So I should be able to complain - seems fair to me.

As to if and what kind of game can be made with it commercial or not we have to wait and see - unless you refer to those in the relative part of this community - of which few are complete games are they?

I personally I doubt that anyone will make a complete working game with the current FPSC in the true sense of the word without it falling over long before completion. Some may as they may be lucky - for many the instability and bugs will overide the hard work and effort and thats a pity both for the users and the product.

I wish both users and the product much success - just dont think its very likely.

Irrespective of other users - I must say that anyone who thinks that I personally speak up about issues with FPSC for the sake of it are very much mistaken though you can interpret my posts anyway you like - If I had no issues I would not speak of them which is why I still spend far too much time here - writing about a programe I use, like and care about which is why I am here in the first place. You wont see much of any developer here if they are able to get on with what they purchased the product to do - not me anyway. I really am more interested in making games than spending time at forums but I have a vested interest in this software and want to see it get better so have no option other than to say so. Otherwsie I only have myslef to blame.

I have tried since EA launch to try and make at least some small contribution towards this end - perhaps to no avail but not trying is not an option.

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Jiffy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 03:21
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Sorry, couldn't read through all of it, but it sounded like you weren't reading too far into your own mistakes.

Firstly, vehicles were never implied, nor were they meant to work as drivable vehicles. The Humvee is there for show, never for anything else (unless you were planning on modding the source).

Doors not goingf all the way through walls? Oldest human error in the book. Use segment doors, not entities. Now, I believe the entity doors shouldn't be there, but it doesn't stop you from making doors.


"I hate erecting my tree, my whole family always wants to join in and all the balls fall around the place." - Zotoaster Merry Christmas!
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 03:42 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 03:44
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First of all, I am glad that you are a MOD Van B.
It's nice to see a MOD giving his opinion rather than just acting like a sherriff.
You got my vote.


@ Vlad
Quote: "
neglectable even"

Now I know you saw it.
~~



@uman
Quote: "
I doubt that anyone will make a complete working game with the current FPSC in the true sense of the word "

That's just it.
It depends on your definition of a game.
If you mean a computer program that entertains and brings enjoyment to its user, then YES it does.
If you mean something that will rival the hottest games on the market, then get real.
You are talking about $50 software not $5,000 or more in development tools.

Quote: "
I wish both users and the product much success - just dont think its very likely."

I think it is likey.
I also think that the product was successful from in conception.
Again that would depend on definitions.
But, now you know mine.


@ CBStudios
Quote: "
Show me ONE piece of software that is not buggy and I will send you a 6 pack of pepsi or beer. "

Amen!
I'll drink to that.




Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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sadsack
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 03:56
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Two years ago people was saying the same thing about DBP. But in the long run that became a very good program. I hope it keep getting better. Let hope the same can be said for FPS.
renny/sadsack
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smoked
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 04:36
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I feel misled as well; in fact, i don't even have it installed at the moment. I know i won't be able to just crack open the cd case and create the next Raven Shield or Counter Strike but the FPSC site indicates you can... grrr, but you get what you pay for and FPSC was only $50... so i really didn't expect make the next Unreal Tournament... have i advertised all my favorite games too much??? naw!!

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Jiffy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 04:40
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It says you can create the next Raven Sheild or Counterstrike?

No. In fact, it expicitly says that you won't be making the next Half-Life 2 or Doom 3 with it.

Give me a direct link where it says something even remotely like this, please.


"I hate erecting my tree, my whole family always wants to join in and all the balls fall around the place." - Zotoaster Merry Christmas!
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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 05:03
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That's not what he said, Jiffy. Read his post again.

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 05:10
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There is a large intermediate field for gamemakers in between the lowest end of gamemaking and the highest and its not realistic either to suggest that any users of FPSC expect to make an AAA title with it - few users of FPSC were born yesterday and many I would suggest are well versed and knowledgeable in terms of whats realistic. Many like myself know because they have found out the hard way over many years - just as many years as anyone else here at the forum and in my case longer than most.

Personally I would like to make a reasonable quality playable game using my own media and other content to give some originality to any game I would make - now that may be asking too much of FPSC and currently it seems that it maybe so.

As of this moment it seems I am forced by the product to stop development completely after one years or thereabouts work with it as it wont run anything and I have joined the ranks of those who cant get it to work at all for the moment at least - that should not happen with a product whatever the cost - irrespective of its other qualities.

Its instances like this and there are many of them when I fully understand that some users feel a little left down by their purchase. The cost of the software has nothing to do with it but lost investment in time and effort does.

Those that get on well with the software may well feel differently if finding themselves in a similar situation and sooner or later they may well do so.

I sincerely hope that no one else does.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 06:32
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I did have it happen once.
It kept crashing and I would have to re-install to get rid of the Debug 0.0 error thingy.
Turned out I was simply out of memory space on my hard drive.
The temp files weren't deleting automatically.
Once I figured out how to delete them manually, it has been running fine ever since.
Once in awhile I get a crash from a corrupt file or path to a non existing file.
But that's my error, not the Engines fault.

I hope you can figure it out uman.
I know it sucks when you can't get it to do anything.
You must have been in on the EA version to have that much time in.
I never had it. I started with the Boxed V1.
I wish I had an answer to your problem.
Wouldn't you continue your project if you can figure out your crash thing?






Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 07:05
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Quote: "Turned out I was simply out of memory space on my hard drive."
>_<

Quote: "Turned out I was simply out of memory space on my hard drive."


Do they ever?

Are you about to rock?

Then [b]I SALUTE YOU!!!
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uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 07:41 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 07:47
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Conjured Entertainment,,

I tried those things as you suggested as they are some of the most obvious ones to start with - no luck there so I tried various reinstallation options - no luck with that either. Next in line would be unistall completely and complete reinstall from scratch - not very palletable as I would have to update everything again and I have a lot to update. Anyway turns out that trying an uninstall wont work for some unknown reason as the procedure itself returns an error as FPSC refuses to unistall itself. Wierd.

Next in line is zapping the folder in its entirity - that will never work of course as FPSC writes stuff to the hard disk that is completely hidden from the user - it cant be removed completely by hand and references remain in the system registry and god knows where else that is untrackable to the end user.

A full format of the hard disk is the only guaranteed way to remove it and I am not sure its worth that as my systems being work machines I have a lot of customers work on them and much more amounting to around half a million files. Backing all that up, formatting and reinstallation of everything is a massive task.

After all that its likely that sometime down the road the same or different problem may occur despite backing up everything in FPSC regularly - thats not much use when this happens as copying things back is just not going to suffice. FPSC is as I have proved over time very stubborn when anything corrupts itself as its the stuff it hides that gets you and it leaves the user with few if any options but total destruction of your system by reformatting.

Yes I followed the development of FPSC originally and was in fact the first person on Gods earth to purchase FPSC on day one of release and have been working with it ever since. I had a fatal error with EA which prevented development for quite some time when trying to add anything to levels beyond a certain limit which was caused by an in built map object limit which existed in the software. Fortunately and thankfully after providing information to Lee he was able to ascertain the exact reason and eliminated it. So as far as I am aware there is now no FPSC map object limit itself at least in theory.

Quote: "Wouldn't you continue your project if you can figure out your crash thing?"


You betcha - I was just getting started

Really I was just getting excited as I had just gotten a new character entity I made - A Robot - into FPSC successfully for the first time - just one animation set for a test but in there nevertheless.

People sometimes I feel misunderstand my view of FPSC. I personally think its the most positive step in indie game making made to date and in theory the design and concept of how it works is a sound one, much needed by indie developers - however it falls short of its potential and even TGC's original plan for the software which never quite turned out the way it was originally evnvisaged. Numerous examples of this exist such as the original planned 100 x 100 world tile size.

Despite this and other shortcomings I would not have used it for so long if it did not have so much potential would I? Ideally it would be of great benefit to users if its stability at leasst could be generally improved and some of the more obvious basic features requested quite reasionably by users such as Save/Load could be incorporated. Anything more than that of course would be a very welcome addition for the future.

Serious game making is a long term undertaking and I would hope that FPSC would be developed in that way over a long period so that users could develop their games in line with the product development.

With that in mind I would hope to continue my own development perhaps towards and beyond any possible V2 - though right at this moment forgive me I fail to see how I can do that so maybe I will just wait until V2 comes out if it does and start again.

In the mean time if FPSC fails me then I have no option to use one or other of the other engines I have and progress my game with those - even though my preference is to stick with FPSC - making a game is paramount whatever engine is used.

I would prefer that engine to be FPSC. It is my first choice, not because of any reason other than it offers more potential to me as an individual gamemaker and its the potential which has to be weighed against the shortcomings (which accepted all engines have).

The problem is really potential is rather a fanciful word if you cant realise that potential whereas shortcomings are a reality which may prevent one reaching that potential.

Thats a rather philosophical (cant even spell it this time of night or morning I should say 06.45 am in the UK) mouthful on which to end.

Regards

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Jiffy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 07:43 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 07:44
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Actually, Keith, it is technically what he said, even though he said he wasn't expecting it...

Quote: "I know i won't be able to just crack open the cd case and create the next Raven Shield or Counter Strike but the FPSC site indicates you can... grrr, but you get what you pay for and FPSC was only $50..."



"I hate erecting my tree, my whole family always wants to join in and all the balls fall around the place." - Zotoaster Merry Christmas!
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Jiffy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 07:43 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 07:43
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Oh, no, my first actual double post!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry!


"I hate erecting my tree, my whole family always wants to join in and all the balls fall around the place." - Zotoaster Merry Christmas!
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incense
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 16:21
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Van B

Quote: "Anyone abandoning FPSC due to lack of updates this early in the game is basically an impatient git who'd never achieve anything with it anyway"


Its simple. The product doesnt do what it said that it can do. Building a game from the default files, without knowing how to script or model in 3D, that will sell is very very very unlikely. The manual is sketchy at best. If there were a complete manual on how to script each kind of thing using the editor interface, That would be a step in the right direction. For instance "If you want an AI to do this use this command". I and many others dont know how to script. The FPSC website implies you dont have to know how to script to use SPFC to make marketable games. Im not asking for a manual on reporgramming the engine, but a complete quick reference command manual is not that far fetched. Im not an
Quote: "impatient git "
and I have plans to do things with FPSC. There is more than one person working on my game, but none know how to script. To make my opinion of FPCS perfectly clear I feel compelled to say that it is still the best one I have seen. Reference my original post
Quote: "Dont get me wrong, it is still the best one yet."


If a compny is to succeed it absolutely must aim to support its product and it custumers. If there is a person appointed by that company that is insulting the customers of that company, it makes that company look bad.
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n1h1l2000
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 17:25
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Hi everyone! I'm new here and I got my copy of FPS creator yesterday.. I must say that I am EXTREMELY impressed with this software. I have been an art director in the game industry for 2 years now and have about 7 years worth of experience. The thing that the complainers don't understand is that nothing ever comes easy with game development. I just finished a 3 year personal project "modermaus" that I built with 3D Game Studio, and don't get me wrong, I like that product too, but it was very tough as well. The thing you need to think about in development is where you want to spend most of your time debugging. In 3D Game Studio most of my time was spent knee deep in code, which I'm sure you can imagine is NOT FUN for an artist... But with FPSC I can spend time debugging fun elements in the 3d game space rather than some cold white text page. And as for "Not having vehicles etc..." Well, I always do my best work when I have limitations, I have to model 1800 poly characters all the time, and that just one limit, each engine has them. The point is, if you use that creativity of yours nothing will stop you!!!
- J

- Strik3Comix -
www.strik3comix.com
Modermaus / Lily n' S!d Availiable NOW!
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 17:28
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Ok, so I said anyone abandoning FPSC already is an impatient git - now if your not abandoning FPSC then I'm not directing it at you, or at anyone in particular. People who are prepared to wait on tutorials and more media and scripts, well those people will get a lot from FPSC.

Frankly, I've been making games and applications for years and have never felt inclined to charge for any of them, so when people get itsy about not making that million seller in FPSC already, it kinda annoys most people here who are trying to improve matters for free. I believe that FPSC is capable, but it needs time and a lot of effort, and frankly nobody has given FPSC the time it would need to make something commercial worthy. The annoying thing is people who think like this:

Step 1. Buy FPSC
Step 2. Make a game
Step 3. Sell the game
Step 4. Collect the booty and live the high life

If it was that easy then TGC would be charging thousands for FPSC.

Regarding the usual quality of budget games, I'd say there was every argument for TGC saying you could make commercial games with it - and they dropped the licence fee's to make it all the easier. I'm not saying it could make a great commercial quality game right now, but it's close, and when you consider the alternatives, being patient is gonna get you there quicker that having to start over on another platform. I'm writing a DBPro FPS right now, and I'll tell you that nobody here really appreciates what FPSC does and what it can do.

There are plenty of things I'd add to FPSC, things that technologically would be possible and not too time consuming, and I'm sure that Lee would like the time to add more, but for this to happen you all need to be patient. At the end of the day, if your project is going stale, then start looking into pushing the FPSC envelope, learn a bit of scripting, practice texturing, learn to model, there's tons of stuff that could be looked into and a forum full of talented people to help you learn, maybe taking advantage of that is the best move until Lee can address the problems fully.

As for insulting customers, if they're abandoning FPSC then they're not my concearn, I'm here trying to improve matters for people serious about using FPSC, I don't have to be, I don't have to spend time moderating here at all - I'm not gonna mollycoddle anyone who hasn't got it in them to see it through, that's not what I'm here for.


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
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incense
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 18:20
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Van B

Quote: "As for insulting customers, if they're abandoning FPSC then they're not my concearn, I'm here trying to improve matters for people serious about using FPSC, I don't have to be, I don't have to spend time moderating here at all - I'm not gonna mollycoddle anyone who hasn't got it in them to see it through, that's not what I'm here for."


They must be of some concern to you one way or the other or you wouldnt address them at all. It takes more time to tell someone that you dont care than it does to ignore them. My project is not yours I didnt ask you to do anything for it and I have no plans to. Its not my goal to provoke anyone but you have to admit that there is a need for, at the very least, a complete quick reference command manual to scripting for FPSC. You also have to admit that if they said that I didnt have to know that stuff then I shouldnt have to know that stuff to use it the way they said I could. there are some experienced people out there and it stands to reason they will have few issues. As for the rest of us, and like it or not there is a rest of us, we just need more reference material for scripting at least. What is so wrong with that? Under stand Van B I am not upset at you and have no desire to attack you or try to make you feel bad in any way. But there are concerns from paying customers. If your not in customer support then why reply to those that adress those issues? Customer support would not attack the way you do anyway. I dont mean this with any sarcasm at all. If it is not that important then why address it. I it is important to me that I get what I need just like all of us here. Including you. So lets just stay on each others good side and get throught the rough parts. Please.
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incense
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 18:44
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Van B

No sarcasm intended.

Quote: "As for insulting customers, if they're abandoning FPSC then they're not my concearn, I'm here trying to improve matters for people serious about using FPSC, I don't have to be, I don't have to spend time moderating here at all - I'm not gonna mollycoddle anyone who hasn't got it in them to see it through, that's not what I'm here for."


It takes more time to tell someone you dont care than it does to ignore them. You are defending FPSC against someone that said it is the best one yet. Where does that make sense?

Im not upset at you or anyone.

I just have a need for the product that I purchased to do what the people that I bought it from said that it could do, without having to have skills that those same people said that I didnt have to have to make it work the way the people that I bought it from said that it would work. No matter what anyone else thinks that is not so unfare of me. None of us are here to bust each others humps. We are here for a common purpose. Wouldnt it be best to stay on each others good side to fill that purpose?
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incense
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 18:46
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Sorry for the double post. My pc fudged on me.
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tpfkat
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 19:32
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microsoft have the same attitude,lets getit made asap and start making money from it then sort out the bugs.
im lucky,ive not had many bug related probs but i am annoyed that i designed a game and the levels involved ladders which were advertised with fpsc but are now not part of the finished version.

van b you said lee works on a subject then wants to move onto somthing else.this i think over time will destroy tgc,a lot of software on the market but too buggy to use.its like they get people to buy the unfinished version making promises,then when youve paid your money they change thier minds.i also bought 3dws,had a problem..posted my problem ( in a basic format) then josh k had a go at me(gave me attitude),mainly because id not reprted bugs b4 and didnt know what info he wanted so ive now lost interest in anything josh k does,im just waiting for 3dws to be finished but wonder what will be changed.
i myself have started using 3d gamestudio A6 a lot more than dbpro and fpsc.its got less bugs ,better documentation and support on a forum,but makes me feel sad when i really think about it,tgc have within their hands the power to dominate this market but are sadly letting it slip.they may be good programmers but if they sell somthing that doesnt work properly then the end of argument is"it doesnt work".
im not attacking tgc but i think that they could improve what they do.
all in all for the price you cant grumble,its good,but 3dgsa6 is better and only a £20 price difference. but then again you must take into consideration that 3dgsa6 comes with model and world editors and you can make any genre of game + its c++ so naturally its faster and more powerful.
dbpro is top for me but that is slowly losing over to 3dgsa6 purely because of the documentation.
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 19:56
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Uman... for one of the first times I don't understand what you are saying, let me reiterate.

Engines are programs that other programs call and uses, or runs a basic program (ie. list of commands). Now there are many things that cause this to create slowdowns, if it is a program calling the Engine then you have some redundancy. ie. where both programs check calculations to use in their own program, or any use of variables that both programs need, but don't share. There are also functions that may never be used, or functions that calculate things that you don't need.

In FPSC's Case, I believe FPSC Levels are like a script. It loads the level data, segment data, weapon data, entity data, and other data. now some entitys use certain variables, some don't. Just a little memory... but the more you have the more waste.

The fact now is that you have wasted memory. Some entitys may go thorugh processes that don't pretain to them. Wasted Processer Power. The thing is that the only way to truely get your stuff out of FPSC is to use it as level design, and program everything else. But then again, you need to know how to program. And there comes the problem.

Effecency comes with coheasion, and the more cohesant something is, the better it runs, and the less errors are possible.
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FernandoK
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 20:01
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I suspect the reason some of us are disappointed is because FPSC comes so close to being what it should be, and we wonder if it will ever be. Granted, it's nice that they released the source code, but does that mean that they won't develop it further? That, with the silence from TGC gives us all cause for concern. Mind you, I think it's a great little program, but it could be so much more. A few words from TGC would go a long way here.
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CBStudios
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 20:05
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I do believe that FPSC, in the right hands can get published by Valu soft or some other budget company, I would much rather keep all the money for my self and my help.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 20:15 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 20:43
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@uman
It sounds as if you have a hard drive beginning to fail.
You should consider an upgrade rather than a reformat.
If the hard drive is the culprit, then it isn't FPSC and couldn't be avoided.


@incense

Quote: "There is more than one person working on my game, but none know how to script. "

E-mail me and I will send you my Tutorial on FPI Scripts for FREE.
Some people like it, and some people don't, but it'll get you started.
It is true you can make a game without knowing how to script, but...
If you are serious about making a commercial game, then you should learn to Script.
The Scripting is very powerful really, and easy to understand.

With all that power available, why would you not want to use it?
I'll never understand that one, because time is the only answer that makes sense.
If you don't have the time to invest, then it'll be difficult to make a commercial game.
The FPSC Scripts are so easy to learn, it takes very little time to pick it up.
It's worth the time it takes to learn to script.
Your Games will be better.... bottom line.



@Van B
Quote: "
I'm writing a DBPro FPS right now, and I'll tell you that nobody here really appreciates what FPSC does and what it can do."


I DO!
I am still learning to harness it's power. (There is sooo much it can do!)
Until I have mastered what it can do, I have no reason to complain about what it can't do.
By then, Lee will have addresses the concerns of V1.
And we all lived happily ever after.





Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 20:34
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Quote: "
I'm writing a DBPro FPS right now, and I'll tell you that nobody here really appreciates what FPSC does and what it can do."

Is that the EASE? Yeah, it is easy, but DBP'rs have already proven that FPSC runs a lot slower then pure DBP FPS' can run.

Quote: "The Scripting is very powerful"



The joke of the year!


But it is all we have, until you buy dbp.
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uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 21:48 Edited at: 14th Dec 2005 21:54
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OnePost,

I do applogise I do not quite know which post or reference of mine you yourself are referring too?

I presume that at the end of the day you refer to gameplay speeds.

If so then how they perform is quite obviously a complex issue which is dependant upon many factors. As to the engine influence that is again complex and is not understood fully by myself - I am not sure anyone would fully understand it - if they did they would have made it better if they could have I would presume.

As to the end user then personally I can do what I can by using some kind of sensible game design to include all those components that I can reasoonably have some influence over. That would include the actual visable world content and the not so easily seen components of scripting and so forth.

So there are as I see it two distinct and separate issues yet one dependant to some extent upon the other. The technicalities of which are very much a non issue for me for the following reasons.

I want to make a reasonable game with a reasonable level of content and gameplay.

I can make the game design and level design to a reasonable standard with reasonably acceptable levels of overall design from the various aspects taking into consideration generally accepted game making principles for good level design practice and so forth.

The rest is down to expecting the chosen engine to handle all that with a reasonable amount of efficiency.

Further to this I should add that I do not wish to get into the writing of game engine source "In depth" as it were and re-write a game engine - thats not what I do - I dont make game engines and thats another isuue as far as I see it.

Of course the word reasonable is rather vague and open to interpretaion. In the case of FPSC using all default content inside a default engine one can possibly achieve certain gameplay speeds those will vary as said by the makers dependant upon variuos factors such as level design and the number of dynamic enemies and so forth and there is a threshold and a capped fps limit of 33 fps or thereabouts to play with. In essence that threshold and fps limit which is put ther for a reason as the engine is too inefficient to sustain anything higher - in essence that threshold and fps cap is to low and restrictive, but is the reality so the engine has a capability which is beyond user control, governed by the engine design and capability and influenced by the user game design and content, which as you have correctly pointed out will all have some bearing upon reducing the gameplay speed and resultant fps.

All of that is further complicated by the fact that there are numerous influences which may be referred to as bugs or issues that play a major role in influencing gameplay speeds when in theory one would not expect them to exist as part of a well or reasonably well designed game engine and these factors, the end user is it seems wholly incabable of influencing making it extremely difficult to play their part in maintaining reasonable gameplay speeds. In effect no matter what the end user may do on their part it can be overidden by the failure in these circumstances of the engine to sustain its own basic fps levels and behave in an erratic fashion in compile and culling and calculating poly counts in gameplay.

Furthermore I believe it is beyond reason to expect the vast majority of FPSC game designers to be able to have any inflence upon the somewhat poor levels of AI thinking and the drain that their routines have on gameplay and one is left with no other option than to minimise its use. i.e. limit the number of enemies to that at which reasonable levels of fps might be sustained. (remeber that in an FP Shooter enemies are largely what it all about). What that number might be is currently very difficult to ascertain as it depends upon individual level design and the level of fps that users or more importantly game players would reasonably expect to see returned. Certainly the threshold here too is too low and the AI capability is somewhat badly implimented it seems.

In support of this I would suggest that 30 fps being the accepted standard for general gameplay speeds one would have some difficulty in making a game with FPSC and sustain a constant 30 fps throughout with anything more than small numbers of active enemies in scene at any one time and perhaps even in the whole of a level. (Fine if your game calls for that scenario, but there is little option) . You can see this quite clearly in Screen Shots of games made with FPSC where those shots are showing much lower fps returns than 30fps and the many comments from users where they say that they have poor fps and in some cases that games are completely unplayable. Its not me finding this or saying it but many other users proving it in practical game level building.

These and many other reasons which make game levels unplayable is why well known users here continue to fall away and look for another solution to their gamemaking needs. Some may not care - personally I do.

Anyway until I either get V1 working again or V2 becomes a reality looks like I am forced to join them. Though I will still spend time here as I like you all so much.

Not sure if thats any clearer - I doubt it but I tried.

Here comes the Smiley

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