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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Using DBP without CD?

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sparrow
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 15:40
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Just wondering... myself and two friend are all chipping in to buy DBP and all the other little goodies like texture maker and the like, but do you need to have the CD to run DBP? We want to install it on all three of our computers and use it... is that why they sell that USB plug thing?
A Fallen Angel,
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Steverino
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 16:18
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You know, it'd be cheaper if you found 800 more friends to chip in...

Sorry, FA, the license is only good for one person, and you need to own your own copy of DBP before you can get the USB dongle.

One of you should install DB and do the programming, one install the texture maker and do the textures, etc.

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DARKGirl
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 16:35
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And besides, for what DBPro is worth, the mere 99 smackaroos is nothing. You know, it really blows my mind to see so many people complaining about the price of DBPro, making $99.00 seem like $999.00. My point is: If you really want the product jest ante up the cash.

“I create games only to test my imagination’s limits” - MSB
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 19:44
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Yes, possible easily if you don't mind a slightly grey workaround, but I need proof that you own an original copy then I can help (just quote some of the text on the CD or something)

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 20:05
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I really don't like the current underground forum movement to crack DB even to legitimate owners.

Having said that I have long hated four things about software protection:

1) Encumberance on legitimate users (in this case Safedisc)

2) Limitations on private use multiple user systems (ie. If I buy a game, I want it to work on my other PC too so I can play my mates when they visit)

3) Removal of software protection. I really hate this, some stuff takes me ages - especially old products where there are no longer quick downloads to hack them for you. This really messes up the LAN session if you want to play an oldie but the game wont let you run two copies without another CD.

4) Lensloc. I hate lensloc, I am so glad this never took off. I have astigmatism, I physically could not get realiable results with this because nobody realised I needed glasses when I was a lad :/ Had to reload Elite several times just trying to play a game I paid for!

However I understand that the industry is disdainful of so called 'warez', whereas my own views are based more upon my own outlook, i'll readily pay for a game/product - but I want to do with it what I WANT (so I do )and that typically involves networking with my mates, or sharing utils with my bro.

Total Annihilation had it right I think, 1 CD allows 3 to play, 2 CD's allows 6 to play, 3 CD's allows 10 to play.

Still though, information about requirements of extra CD's in not printed on the boxes of games, and I think that is wrong.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 20:25
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Also to add to what PneumaticDrill said, the SafeDisc protection is totally ineffective - it is more a form of irritation than piracy prevention.

This is why the Blitz BUID system is a better idea - because you don't get a BUID unless you purchase a legit copy, and you can only upgrade your copy if you have the BUID to access the patch downloads. NOTE: I am not advocating the restrictions placed on non-owners in the forums, I am just referring to the patch system.

In my experience, the BUID style system has worked the best. Online games such as Half-Life are a good example, it is not that easy to play HL online with a warez copy and any leaked keys can be simply banned. As long as a working keygen is not available (and if the DBUID was checked server-side then nobody could follow the checking sequence) - we would be in a much better position.

After all DBP retail is so bad that nobody could ever use it to make a proper game.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 20:29
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What stops someone hacking out the part of the program that checks for the BUID? Absolutely nothing. You cannot force a program to only work "online", it would piss off an amazing amount of people.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Chenak
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 20:41
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CD check should be removed from DB pro completely, it's just so annoying! No software that I know of (and I know a fair few) requires the CD to use, it's just pointless for all kinds of software and multiplayer games since they can easily be hacked, it's just the law obiding people that suffer.

The CD check is especially annoying since it sometimes has troubles if you have multiple CD drives. I can hardly get the CD verification to work at all, it usually takes up to an hour for the damn thing to work. I got so annoyed that i removed one of my cd drives just to get it to work.

It's just not fair DB pro is excellent aside from the cd check. I think we should start a partition to get rid of it for good.

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 22:03
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OMG - I just wrote a several page message then realised the statute of limitations hasn't quite run out and had to delete it!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 22:06
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"What stops someone hacking out the part of the program that checks for the BUID? Absolutely nothing. You cannot force a program to only work "online", it would piss off an amazing amount of people."

Honestly! - THE DOWNLOAD IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO LEGIT USERS! (as in the website download link) - There IS NO ID CHECK IN THE PATCH INSTALLER!

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 22:47
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Internet security is no more robust than CD checks.

For evidence just look at how much information the Pentagon lost in 98.

For those that don't recall, every government file connected to the internet was scanned during a 3 day total security loss. Unfortunately for the Americans, they had everything - and I meen everything - accessable over the web. Unfortunately for Britain, the Americans had everything of ours stored too.

And they still have no idea who did it.

Allowing downloads of commercial software via the internet is paramount to giving it away. Most corporate systems can be accessed by people with only a little more knowledge than the average programmer, many even using known security exploits.

Infact there was a case last year of a student who for a project tested the security of several eCommerce sites using known security holes and gained access to a bank who, after he notified them of the breach, took him to court. I understand his legal fees where paid for by another company who he hacked and notified.

The internet is about as secure as a hookers undergarments, what's more internet security is a much more complex issue than CD security which is relatively easy to maintain to a reasonable standard.

Ultimately a security breach comes down to who is the best hacker, the white collared 9-5 office worker or the kid in his bedroom descovering the wonders of coffee in the early hours and once your security is breached the only way to counter that breach is with considerable investment.

If Blitz are allowing their software to be downloadable the only thing protecting their company from hacking is their complete obscurity as a programming language.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 01:16
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I saw hacked copy of DarkBasicPro and crack floating around on the internet. Yet I didn't download it. I purchased the software. And sure, I've downloaded a lot of "pirated software" in my day but never kept it. Tried it, and erased it usually within a few hours. But anyways my point is. The only reason I bought DBP was since I tried the demo and liked the product. Definatly something I'll use a lot. So I naturally bought it out of the fact that I wanted to support the company with my money, knowing that in return my money will be used to pay the salaries of those who will keep developing the future improvements. I for one think DBP is priced really well.

At $100 dollars I know that I'll get my moneys worth. In fact I've probably almost got my moneys worth out of the Demo. I eventually plan to subscribe to DBSN as well.

Though, I do see the CD thing being a problem because I would like to use it at Home and at work.
I haven't received DBP in the mail yet so my question is, do you need the original CD, or can I burn a backup for my work computer?

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Dave J
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 01:37
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This is sort of related, what's the currency conversion taken from? The US $99.99 or the 72.99 Pounds? In my case, there's a good $30-40 difference and I'm very low on cash.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 01:53
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If you don't like the dbp protection then don't use dbpro.
Really, if you can program in dbpro then theres nothing stoping you from learning to program in another language that doesn't have it. Go now my friends and achieve greatness and never look back to your humble begings.

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:02
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"I saw hacked copy of DarkBasicPro and crack floating around on the internet. "

That REALLY does not surprise me. DBP can be cracked in at least 3 different ways. And not using in-depth assembler / debugger knowledge either. DBP used a protection for which an effective generic crack is available.

However, at £50 for a complete 3D engine, language, compiler and everything else - I really think that you would have to be seriously mean to consider getting a warez version. DBP is (when it works) very good value for money in terms of featureset and it is not so pricey that people simply cannot afford it (like 3DSMax, where at least 5/10 users are using pirate copies).

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Dave J
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:39
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Uhh, wouldn't that be the same as saying 1/2 the users have pirate copies? lol.

Anyway, don't mind my earlier question, just realised there was an option to show the prices in your currency.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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HZence
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:43
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If the liscense is only good for one person, that why does it ask if you want to liscense it to a person of a company? Theoretically if liscensed to a company than it is liscensed to all those within the company to whom the company provides the software. Unless I'm wrong...which I probably am...I'm always wrong

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HZence
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:48
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Oh yeah, that's anothering about DBPro as an IDE: it has a long way to go to catch up with the likes of the VC++ and the VB IDEs (which by the way, don't require cds to run them). Though I do understand that it is in it's infancy stages, I'm certainly hoping that future versions won't require a CD to run it, because personally I think that it a) is annoying and b) makes your program load slower because DBP has to check every compilation to see if the CD is there.

That's my two cents...and remember, I never mean any offense to anyone

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BoB Vila
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 05:23
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Getting off the topic a little. Agreeing with HZence, there are a quite a few short comings with the IDE, granted. But its better than using the DOS editor. Though I've found the Debugger to be extremely useful. In all my programming experiences, I've never used the debugger. I usually write my own debugging code write into my programs. This works fine for business applications but when it comes to 3D graphics, I've found it somewhat challenging. So I give the debugger an A+.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Dave J
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 10:38
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HZence, that's because Microsoft own Windows and have about a zillion other highly recommended products out on the market that no matter how much they lose to warez they'll still be the most successful company in the world.

Dark Basic Software don't have as many potential buyers and customers that they can't afford to let one person give his CD away to all his friends.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 12:11
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I preffer the IDE to DBPro than I do Visual Studio. Too many options and too many features just leads to confusion and makes the program, in the case of Visual Studio, far too hard to learn as you try to understand the M$ way of thinking.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 15:05
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Visual Studio is simple... you have the Editor Area, Toolbars, Build Console Below and Properties Bar to the Left (well in default Setup)

All the Build Options most users require are already sitting right above the editor area, the Properies Bar contains data on what classes & functions you've used + if they're private or public. when you setup a class it'll automatically setup the standard object orientation for it, which can be called with the '->' or '.' and the dropdown appears with the functions, editing is done the same as any editor - you type in.

Everything else is just extented information really ... you have the Visual Resource Editor which helps when developing MFC programs and Icons... file browser so you know whats there. the Properties Broswer is capable of splitting up Projects within the Workspace and you can select them individually so that you can compile them seperately or all together.

if you have a product that is aimed for VS use, then they will oftenly install and setup the libraries and links as well as build options within VS so you don't have to spend ages doing that.

The options aren't there to confuse and bewilder people, they're there to make the programmers life easier - but only if you know howto use them... alot of newbies take a look at it though and rather than finding out howto create a new workspace and the build options then just start tinkering they believe that everything is hypercomplex and turn it off.
Everything is have been placed for easy and level of the user... the more complex an option your accessing the deeper level it will be

personally i prefer Visual Studio IDE to any other available (^_^)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 16:35
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^^ The Visual Studio interface is OK, but personally I prefer the Delphi IDE best. VS is OK at face level but once you get into more depth the property pages are horrible.

Delphi's IDE also makes navigating around a project more easy and especially accessing various objects and so on. The only major flaw in the Delphi IDE is that the popup tips are not as good as the VS equivilents.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 17:01
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I've always find the property pages nice ... but then i've got alot of background in 3D Packages which alot of them are truely horrible for thier property pages.

worst offender probably has to be Softimage - lol

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 16th Mar 2003 02:17
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OMG I hate the DBP IDE. No offense to Guy or DBS of course, it's just a matter of personal taste. I much prefer VB's... probably because of pure lazyness

**Might I add to those talking about DBP's low low price: THERE ARE NO ROYALTIES AND ACCESS TO AN AMAZING FORUM!!!

Nuff said.

Alex Wanuch
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Mar 2003 09:31
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YUCK!!!! Visual Basics IDE ... ack that one is specifically for the Visual Coder who doesn't really want to get down to the real nitty gritty of development, and i can't stand it even slightly.

DarkBasic Pro's IDE is a good Editor, for what it is ... but its hardly setup for any kind of serious development - as everything is tucked away in the tab folders.
I'd prefer the VS IDE way of press "new" icon and you have a new source code - save the project and it asks you what you want to save it as ... even better would be a drop down for the type of new source you'd want.

the most major reason i actually prefer VS IDE to all other is the Project Properties tab - you can't beat the simplicity which gives you direct access to all Functions, & Classes ... and the class wizard is certainly a very handy tool as well.
And i like DBpro's CLi, however i'd also prefer a debug dialog below - perhaps the option to export 2 types of DBpro larger Debug and smaller Retail because right now it only exports Debug versions

i'm also not too fond of the way that the new DBpro IDE doesn't make you include any included files - it makes it harder to tell what you've actually inlcuded and where, i find myself oftenly making new source in DarkEdit and exporting to the pro directory where i use the #include left in for the legacy means.

well atleast i've always got my Ciya Alpha

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Terabyte
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Posted: 16th Mar 2003 12:29
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YES QUITE!!!![img] [/img]

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..don't piss on an electric fence!
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Kale
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 00:27
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change this registry key to this:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows Info]
"fileinfo"="-99999999"

the CD check pisses me and all other legit users off!

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
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HZence
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 01:03
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Hey Kale, thanks! That is one nice piece of work! You officially get in the credits of all the games i ever make...lol

THANKS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!

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HZence
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I take that back actually. That allows you to open DBPro without the CD, but as soon as you try to compile the CD has to be inserted.

Nice try though...lol

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Kale
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works fine for me

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
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HZence
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 04:32
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Wish it did for me too

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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 06:18
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just use a copy of CloneCD to duplicate the DB PRO CD, easy
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Xoid
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just so you know, I haven't got DB Pro, but I will be BUYING it in the future hehe
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malcom2073
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I personally bought DBP. But I want a crack so I dont need the CD. Right now i'm using an iso image I made (legally from my own official cd) and I mounted it on a virutal cdrom so it would work. But that takes 700megs of hard drive space. See, my view on warez is this:
If you download the game, and dont like it, delete it. If you like it, go out and buy it. Thats what I do. I admit I download warez, but I buy the game or otherwise delete it within a week. I myself am a software programmer, so I have respect for companies like that.


Oh, I got one more thing to say. Microsoft visual studio. You pay for the IDE. The compiler is avalible for free. Why isnt DB the same way?

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Xoid
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malcom2073, why isn't DB the same? come on you know aswell as I that Microsoft can AFFORD to do that, they have billions upon billions LOL

If DB did this they wouldn't make any money.
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Xoid
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ok, so IF DarkBASIC Software LTD took the games creator market by storm and managed to aquire a shit load of money, they would probably give more things out for FREE, until then, sorry, but, no chance and I don't blame them
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Richard Davey
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Take a look at the markets - VB is aimed at corporates, application developers, crusty old programmers who get joy from doing things with Excel/Access files, students who are scared of C, etc (sorry, bad image I know, but VB sucks, always has done, always will) - this is a massive massive market. Games Development is far smaller. Ask yourself this - why don't Microsoft have a games development language? (don't start quoting me DirectX please, I'm talking a blitz/db/a5 style one). Perhaps this market is too small for them to consider? Infact why don't any major software house have one? It's just too small for them to consider.

Rob K - "Honestly! - THE DOWNLOAD IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO LEGIT USERS! (as in the website download link) - There IS NO ID CHECK IN THE PATCH INSTALLER!"

Define a "legit" user? Then show me how a piece of software can be protected against a hack. Wait, let me put this another way - NO piece of software EVER created .. EVER.. in the history of computing.. cannot be hacked.

Why? because the bloody thing RUNS on a computer and when it runs your computer is sat there processing all the operations and instructions from the assembler and acting accordingly. If it runs - you can see the source executing - if you can see the source - you can hack it. There is no way around this. It doesn't matter if your program checks itself over the 'net or from CD or serial or whatever, at the end of the day nothing is unbreakable because it has to execute on a processor and the very second it does that it's wide open.

We used SafeDisc because all FastTrak products do. A publisher in another country who releases Pro (France for example) most likely will not. Sad but true.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:28
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I second that Rich
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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:34
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Sorry to say this, but they probabaly will bring out a games development language eventually Rich. take the XBOX, they already THINK they can beat the likes of PS2, LOL that ain't gonna happen
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:38
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They have no immediate plans to develop an x-box basic language of their own at this moment in time - trust me on this one, it's not speculation or assumption (damned NDAs!)

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Xoid
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rapscaLLion as for the DBPRO IDE, damn I was impressed with the design, an exceptional IDE, smart, clean and damn nice to look at.
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Xoid
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yeah, I take your word for it Rich, but what if they do? what if they bring out a games development language for the PC? damn, be a real shit if they do? Micro$oft are just so damn competitive!!
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:45
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I can't comment on this, sorry. But trust me - don't worry about it, really

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:53
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yeah, I didn't think you would be able to LOL nemind,

sorry, just being plane nosey know, do DB plan on moving over to OpenGL eventually?
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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:55
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I would love to show off my OpenGL skills, it may convince them :p hehe, j/k
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:56
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Nope.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:57
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Heh.. bad timing! I meant nope we're not moving to OpenGL

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Xoid
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 16:58
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although DirectX is faster, OpenGL alot more accurate, we shall see in the near but distance future hehe
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Rob K
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 17:16
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"But I want a crack so I dont need the CD."

There are none available on the net, but you'd need to proove that you legally own DBP first.

"although DirectX is faster, OpenGL alot more accurate"

What exactly do you mean by that. In my experience, OpenGL is both faster and easier to use - but has more compatibility problems.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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