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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Using DBP without CD?

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sparrow
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 19:47
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wow... didn't realize this question would inspire such a debate, heh...

We're waiting on everything getting shipped to us over here in afgahnastan... we're just hoping it gets through military stuff okay...

A Fallen Angel,
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 20:53
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Xoid - "what if they bring out a games development language for the PC?"

then they would become the little fish in the big old pond, DarkBasic Software for the moment is the biggest in this area - and they'll have 4years drop on Microsoft on howto work the market. So it'd be hard to imagine Micrsoft being able to like blow them out of the water - especially as both companies would be using the exact same APi to get the job done.

Xoid -"although DirectX is faster, OpenGL alot more accurate"

on the surface OpenGL does appear to be a more appealing platform being;
easier to program, faster, supported better within faster hardware, multi-platform capable, smoother pipelining, etc..

however it misses the greatest advantage that DirectX has, it is only a graphical APi - DirectX is a complete development solution APi, and is completely integrated within the Microsoft Windows OS's since Windows 95b.

if you were to go by pure compatibility, OpenGL would win hands down - but only with hardware developed to use it

malcom2073 - "Oh, I got one more thing to say. Microsoft visual studio. You pay for the IDE. The compiler is avalible for free. Why isnt DB the same way?"

i think this is likely to happen in the future, probably not with DarkBasic Pro/2002 but i think maybe the next version (wierd to think that far ahead already eh?)

perhaps the first incarnation would be a developer licence version - meaning that the compiler still requires an IDE, but the developers of these pay DBS for the right to develop and have the compiler recognise them... then DBS release the compiler and you pay for the IDE you want to use. Perhaps even introducing the final program licence scheme that was wanted for Professional (which i still personally don't think they should've scrapped)

Then by say version4 you'll see the popularity and development market there for them to actually release the compiler for free for older versions (which is what Micrsoft actually do) this would even encourage people to purchase the latest versions

think this will probably happen once the demand for DarkBasic Standard calms down ... because once it is no longer making profit it'll be better just to setup a licence scheme for it.

finally... kale you know that the patches actually get rid of the CD checks - but then again so do the online activations, was very annoying to find that the over the phone ones required the CD but the online ones didn't.

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Rob K
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 21:33
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I think that the main reason for OpenGL's continued popularity is mainly its cross-platform capabilities and continual use in MacOS X and Linux.

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Rob K
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 21:37
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""Oh, I got one more thing to say. Microsoft visual studio. You pay for the IDE. The compiler is avalible for free. Why isnt DB the same way?"

You are paying for a complete 3D engine, with full sound / input etc. support as well as the compiler.

Also, DarkBASIC Software didn't make the IDE, so they won't charge for it. If they gave the compiler away for free, they wouldn't earn any money because the IDE is freeware.

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BoB Vila
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 22:25
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What about the fact that OpenGL doesn't provide the API for Sound and Devices, where as DirectX does.

DB may be the #1 in Game Development languages, and I hope they stay that way. But in the US at least, DBP isn't very well advertised. I ran into it by accident at CompUSA (the K-Mart of computers). First time I even knew that things of the sort existed. Microsoft on the other hand has the ability to reach everyone, quickly.

But, I never see this ever happening because its not really what they do. They provided an API to go with their operating system to keep game Development on Windows and not lose it to other harder to program platforms. MS doesn't copy Every thats out there, just stuff that can be integrated into their OS to make it better than whats out there. Besides Microsoft Studios (games) you don't see any other specialty development going on. Most of their budget seems to go into Networking and Business Development solutions. Cause that is where the big money is.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Mar 2003 22:27
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IDE isn't freeware ... it was developed specifically for DarkBasic Professional by RGT which are either a partnership or ownership of DarkBasic Software.

DarkEdit was developed by NMI Software (now RGT) and was charged for when it first came out, but DarkBasic got ownerships rights or something like that and subsequent versions were released for free.

Eitherway both DarkEdit and DarkBasic Pro IDE are the priority property of DarkBasic Software - so i can see your point on DB however DBpro's trial version once the trial runs out won't run multiple instances of the IDE ... and you also have to put up with the annoying popups in the trial.

no doubt it has something to do with the Registry, but you need both the Retail of the Compiler and Editor to get rid of the Trial popup.

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HZence
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 01:44
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"but VB sucks"

*Sigh*....

I'm not going to start a fight over VB, but I will tell you this. I use VB and it's NOT that bad. It does NOT suck like many think it does. All those who've said that have probably never even tried to fully immerse themselves in VB's power (it is EXTREMELY powerful) and actually coded a line in it either. Yes, it does use stupid tools like "PictureBox" - but those tools are OPTIONAL, and good VB game developers do not use them, they use DirectX.

I'm going to rest my case where it is, because the next thing I know somebody's gonna be down my throat about how bloody useless it is. (Which it ISN'T )

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 15:39 Edited at: 18th Mar 2003 15:41
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lmao... used VB... hated VB - prefer C++ with MFC its infinately more powerful and versitile

problem is the development isn't quite as quick, which is why it isn't used ... but then again now there is C# which beats both languages on application development

[edit-]
another point is... DirectX in VB.Net 60fps is the best you can hope for (slower than even DarkBasic alot of the time) - whereas in C++ the same small code will run at almost 350fps ... it is a common fact that serious VB Game Developers, is a really a contratry in terms. If they were that serious they wouldn't be using VB

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 18:16
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"But in the US at least, DBP isn't very well advertised"

Actually, I am pretty surprised that someone who is trying to make a business out of selling DBP in the US is so hopeless at advertising. For example - he should get DBP onto Amazon.com (it is only on Amazon.co.uk atm.) so people can buy it using a tried and trusted system.

"lmao... used VB... hated VB - prefer C++ with MFC its infinately more powerful and versitile"

MFC? - Uggh! VB is worse, and does produce crappy slow exes but MFC, although fast, is not IMO, very pleasent to work with.

www.trolltech.com - QT "infinately" more powerful, more versitile and cross platform compatible - and a damn sight easier to use.

How much does MS pay you Raven?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 18:56
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well they said the cheque is in the... hey wait they don't pay me
maybe they should hehee

i actually enjoy working with MFC, god knows why - just is simple to flick through the Class Wizzard to setup the data and such using a Visual interface to create the menu's and dialogs

i mean if you're hard coding it can be a bitch to use, but that would defeat the whole point in using it lol

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Curious
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 20:24
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VB kicks azz if you know how to use it properly. Stay away from all the "time-saving" tools and code it the hard way (which in the end is the BEST and most flexible way).

Now I wouldn't dream of using VB for game programming, but for business apps etc... there is little you can't do with it if you spend time to understand API and object level programming.

People that hate VB simply haven't advanced their knowledge of it's true power.

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 20:28
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"People that hate VB simply haven't advanced their knowledge of it's true power."

Sorry to stick my ore in here, but what "true power" were you referring to. It is a nice little RAD development suite, but there are no "power" features to speak of anywhere.

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HZence
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 23:26
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It depends on what you consider "power" (BTW, your quote of me is not exactly what i said! ). For example, VB can handle 3D. FPS is slow Raven, I agree, but the fact is it can handle it a manageable speed (and with some good coding you get a great FPS). I've tried Simple 3D demos, such as "walk around in your basic room", etc., but nobody has ever done anything huge in VB.

I personally switched to DBPro for the time being because I'm in algebra, haven't done Plane Ge yet, definitely not at Trig or Calc so I can't handle programming 3D engines from scrath

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HZence
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 23:27
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Not to mention I don't know any physics



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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 23:37
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"Not to mention I don't know any physics "

Well get a book and learn then

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 23:42
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The Question: 'What if Microsoft bring out a basic programming language for the PC?'

The reality: When in Microsofts history have they every done anything innovative? Bill Gates bought MS-DOS, he bought Windows, he bought Office... To write games he didn't get a team of innovative people to start developing a game, he just bought games already under development. He bought the company making Sidewinders, and the XBox is all existing technology that he bought.

M$ Has never developed an innovative or original product during it's long association with computer software. And I choose the word association carefully because they are just a publisher, not a software house.

Even today Windows is developed by MS subsidiaries which where originally independent software houses around the world, on assessing their potential and skills those that MS wanted they bought.

If Microsoft decide to release a basic language for the PC then it will either be M$ Blitz or M$ DBPro, and only if Lee was a complete nob could he fail to make them chose DBPro over that thing called Blitz.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 18th Mar 2003 23:46
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Oh, there was another page....

VB sucks.
C++ sucks.
C# sucks.
DBPro rocks.

And they didn't pay me to say that.

Do I win the retro competition now Rich?

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Mar 2003 00:30
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"If Microsoft decide to release a basic language for the PC then it will either be M$ Blitz or M$ DBPro, and only if Lee was a complete nob could he fail to make them chose DBPro over that thing called Blitz...."

Judging by their past efforts, if MS produced a game development language, the first installment would be absolute c**p, then it would evolve into something extremely powerful, up to date etc... but also slower than a lathargic snail, requiring a monsterous PC to do anything with, produce gargantuan bloated executables and be as buggy as hell.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 19th Mar 2003 00:37
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Quote: "RobK:

Judging by their past efforts, if MS produced a game development language, the first installment would be absolute c**p, then it would evolve into something extremely powerful, up to date etc... but also slower than a lathargic snail, requiring a monsterous PC to do anything with, produce gargantuan bloated executables and be as buggy as hell."


Quote: "Pneumatic:

only if Lee was a complete nob could he fail to make them chose DBPro"


For everyone who doesn't get it:

the first installment would be absolute c**p - a bit harsh but DBC?
then it would evolve into something extremely powerful - DBPro
slower than a lathargic snail - We're getting patch 4 for a reason, right !?
produce gargantuan bloated executables - See include media checkbox
buggy as hell - I rest my case



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HZence
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Posted: 19th Mar 2003 01:39 Edited at: 19th Mar 2003 01:39
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Point well made.

And listen to use all sitting here blowing off Microsoft. Though our points are getting across, raise your hand if your running windows (and can't stand it)?!?!?!

If rest my case.

P.S. - Microsoft did not buy XBox as already existing technology. It was developed by MS for MS - you may be interested to know that Bill Gates actually opposed the idea, but the team decided to do it anyway. Many of the most successfully Microsoft things were opposed by Bill Gates. Ironic, isn't it?

And for God's sake, why in hell would you want to have $65 Billion for yourself? Cheese and crackers! He could feed five third world countries and he has it sitting in multiple banks, or for all we know he has a giant pool that he's sure to take a dive in everyday

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Mar 2003 18:34
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well somehow i feel Pneu has far too much again Microsoft here...
but VB doesn't have any hidden power for developing games, it is an application development platform - and to be honest it isn't exactly the best either.

C# is a far greater platform, and could actually hold its own again C++ in games development terms simply because it is capable of compiling to machine and accessing areas of the computer which are protected from VB because really normally you'd never believe they'd be required within an application programming language ... but this opens up a world which illudes VB called x86-64

Visual Basic started as a 16bit program, and althought it gained 32bit access it'll die as a 32bit program. Simply because developers want and need a programming language with the same level of ease - whilst giving alot deeper access and more raw power.
This is why C# is there ... because it has been taken down from the Interpreter level to the Compiled level. The language is also ALOT better and more descriptive to develop upon than Visual Basic could ever be.

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The Scorpion
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 05:51
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Well I have the strangest problem. I have the program and I put the CD in my drive. Auto run brings up the cool looking menu and I click the button to install it. then it asks me to put the cd in...there has to be something wrong. Is it my extremely old CD-ROM drive? or is my CD defective?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 12:05
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might be an old Cd-Rom... or the Autodetection playing up (as i remember it did that alot in Win95/WinME)

put the CD in and then after autorun starts it, close that goto the cdrom:\ and click the setup.ece manually
if that doesn't work, it might be because perhaps you have two cdroms? and you're putting the CD in the E:\ rather than the D:\ so to speak. Becuase thats an annoying problem alot of setup programs and games have, where they ONLY recognise the first Cd based Drive... alot of games won't run in my DvD-Rom becuase of this and i have to use my useless 8x CdRom on my laptop cause of this.

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Ultimatum
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 16:35 Edited at: 20th Mar 2003 16:37
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Fact is, each language has its own merits. Visual Basic 6.0 is not intended to be a game programming language (although it can be done). It is a generic language that is targetted towards business applications. I use Visual Basic at my work everyday and it definitely suits its purpose. C and C++ are definitely more powerful when considering game programming, noone can dispute that. They are faster and require less overhead than a comparable VB program. It all depends on your needs and skills.

If you need a program that involves typical business logic in a quick amount of time, you are probably better off choosing VB. If you need a program to process quickly and have more time to develop it, you are probably better off choosing C/C++. If you want to build a game quickly and don't mind possibly taking a performance hit, you are probably better off choosing DBpro. Different tools for different projects. It all depends on where you want to spend your time and what your goals are.

Now enter .NET, keep in mind that VB and C# are relatively equal in terms of performance (they compile to roughly the same intermediate code). So, now it comes down to "pick the syntax that you like the best". I prefer VB, other people prefer C#... no problem... make your choice and run with it.

Or use DBpro for your game programming. The war between VB and C/C++/C# is futile, its personal preference.

Thats just my opinion.
-- Ultimatum --

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TheCyborg
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 11:16
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There are cracks on the net.
I know because I use one my self.

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TheCyborg
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 11:19
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hmm... i'll try again... My last post didn't post.

There are cracks on the net.
And i know because I use one my self.

TheCyborg Development.
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TheCyborg
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 11:22
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Hey... There is something wrong... I can't post my messages...

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TheCyborg
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 11:27
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Sorry.... Didn't see that there was 2 pages...
Now we really need a delete post button...
Can some moderator please delete this and my last 2 posts..

TheCyborg Development.
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Marcusmole
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hey this is my first post but i buy they software i have (most of the time) and i will always "crack" it because luging a buch of cds around is annoying but i think that software protection has to be there i also feel that keycode (cd keys) are pointless as they are so easily cracked. but i would have to say that if dbp only asks for the cd every 100 compiles surely thats better than every time? :-s

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 18:14
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Every 500 compiles, not 100.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 20:29
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5000 if you do what Lee posted about a month back

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Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2003 15:04
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I'm pretty sure OpenGL is a lot faster too, this can easily be seen in something like 3ds Max, the difference is phenomenal.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2003 18:09
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3D Studio Max definatly is NOT the best show of the power because they're drivers are extremely poorly developed - i mean i have less than a year's experience in OpenGL & DirectX and i can push more power out than Max with my Graphics Drivers

if you want a good test, Softimage XSI 3.0 - runs DirectX or OpenGL, and the difference in speed is ONLY noticeable on hardware specifically setup for one or the other ... if you use say a FireGL Card the GL is slightly faster (considerably Rendering) ... if you use a Radeon 9700 the DirectX is slightly faster (considerably Rendering)

Generally though if you know howto use them, you can actually push out around the same speed under either ... Milkshape 2.0 will show this quite well as Mete from what i know is planning to use DirectX 9.0, MESA 5.0 OpenGL
should show quite the comparible speeds

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