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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / First Look at DarkSHADER

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RickV
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:32
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Hi all, here's a video that will give you some insights into our new tool Dark SHADER. We will feature it more in the Newsletter next month but for all the forum users here's a sneak peak!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZtMyU0zi9Q

Rick

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TGC Team
[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:36 Edited at: 1st Nov 2006 21:10
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High Res Video - Now available. Download from here:
http://files.thegamecreators.com/newsletter/DarkShader_HighRes_WMV.zip

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Kentaree
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:43
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Looks nice enough, but what does it actually do, compared to FX Composer and Rendermonkey, which both let you preview and edit code too?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:45
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I think it prepares the shader for use in DBP and gives you the dbp source code to get the same effect. The code shown in the video was DBP code right and not a shader language?

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:48
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Impressive indeed. Particularly keen on the full screen effects and the code editing window. It certainly looks like it might be the first expansion I ever buy.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 16:50
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Very nice!

EZrotate! TextureMax! Enhanced Animations! (coming soon....) 3D Character Maker! (coming soon....)
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 17:09
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The main difference between this and FX Composer? The preview display in Dark Shader is generated by DBPro (i.e. a true WYSIWYG), and the file you save will work natively in DBPro with no source modifications required at all. If you're already able to create a shader in FXC or RM, and know how to modify it to work in DBPro, then this won't be all that useful to you. If you fall into the other 90% of people here, it may well.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 17:10
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Is there any indication of what the price tag may be? Also is it going to ship with a selection of shaders?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 17:27
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It will be priced in-line with all the rest of our expansion packs (no set price yet, but no more or less than usual). And yes it ships with a good range of shaders.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 18:10
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Have you considered implementing your own shader language a la HLSL or OGSL, but using BASIC syntax? I think that would be a big hit

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Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:04
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I think it would be needlessly complicated given what DarkSHADER appears to do on it's own. It's looking like a very nice, easy to use package. I'm putting off teaching myself FXC right now and will purchase DS when it comes out instead. I just hope you guys release it with a month or two to spare on the nVidia compo.

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jbfreeze
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:08
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Rick or Rich i plan on purchasing darkshader but do any of you know whether it works with patch 4.2 also im using a laptop with a ATI card will there be a way to test compatibility with say like a demo or something
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:30
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Patch 4.2? For DBPro? I'm afraid no way, it'll be a 6.3 or above only. As for a trial version that is very possible, although I can't say when.

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jbfreeze
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:38
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i figured lol i guess its back to the old fashioned way ill still probably be getting it anyway
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Scraggle
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:46
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Quote: "it'll be a 6.3 or above only."


When is 6.3 available and what updates can we hope for?


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:49
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It's finished and in testing. Various shader and texture fixes funnily enough

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Scraggle
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 00:13
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Who'd have thought it?


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indi
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 01:19
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santas coming soon, perhaps his bag is full of upgrades

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Dimension
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 10:41 Edited at: 28th Oct 2006 10:45
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I think this could one of the biggest devolupments from The Game Creators.

As for the difference compared to Rendermonkey and FX Composer. I suspect simplicity.

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Chris K
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 12:29
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The main selling point, is without a doubt, WYSIWYG within DBPro.

I'm not having too much trouble with FX composer (or notepad!), so I'll probably only get it if it's cheap.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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dark coder
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 12:55
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I assume this is still being worked on, but where exactly was the drag and drop component? to me it looked a bit like a select a preset shader and alter the values in realtime editor, for instance what if i wanted the vertex manipulation aspect from dbp`s bubble shader, aswell as normal mapping? and maybe even throw in some reflecdtions, is that possible?

Hallowed are the ori.
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Philip
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 15:34 Edited at: 28th Oct 2006 15:48
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In my view this is an *excellent* idea for an expansion pack. My purchase is guaranteed guys.

Possibly this is a stupid question, but would this tool also help with mapping multiple textures onto objects, i.e. make it easier to show how they look in DBPro? One thing I am always wrestling with is creating models in other programmes, texturing them and then trying to get the model in DBPro looking identical to how it looked in the other programme. The texturing is a particularly time consuming thing to wrestle with.

Onto other equally important matters, isn't RickV and gang organising an official DBPro Con next year? Any news on that yet?

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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 28th Oct 2006 17:10
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Quote: "santas coming soon, perhaps his bag is full of upgrades "


And tgc's other free christmas present

My nvidia compo entry
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Alfred
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 02:55
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This proyect is looking very nice. It would be awesome if it had the texture+ alpha map + bump mapped cube texture shader. The full screen effects are excellent!

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ICERGB
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 09:38
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I hope I hope that it has the ability to make reflections.
(Buy it now, upgrade it later)
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 11:48
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How do you view the demo video? I keep getting an error message telling that either JavaScript is disabled or Flash something or other has not been installed. Have now ensured that the Flash thing is installed - and get the same message. I assume that JavaScript is set in Tools/Internet Options/Security - but can't find an option referring to JavaScript. I can find

"Java VM/Java Permissions" which is set to "High Safety" (whatever that means)

and

"Scripting/Scripting of Java applets" which is "Enabled",

but no mention of "JavaScript" anywhere. What do I need to do.

Why wasn't the demo provided as a regular video download file like everyone else on this site manages to provide? What a poor example to set!

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 17:28
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Try downloading the Java thingie from Sun.

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Thebeely
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 19:51
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That video looks great! I just hope it won't be (very) expensive....


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Gunner
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 20:45
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Wow!!!! All I can say is WOW.. gj TGC team!
I can't wait to get my hands on this!

I can't believe the year we've had with TGC product, felt like xmas all year long!

considering that RT-Zen was selling for like 2k, a dpb plugin that does the same thing with pricing inline with other TGC products, you just can't go wrong!

I can see people using other engines as well buying this plugin..

gj again, platic in hand, just say the word!
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 20:55
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Quote: "Try downloading the Java thingie from Sun."


What Java thingie? I used to have the Java SDK but needed the space and since it was the most unusable programming language I've ever come across I erased it from my system - and haven't missed it one bit. All those "thread exception" error messages. Ugh!! Hope you don't mean that, because if you do I'll just wait till a video in a sensible format comes out.

In the meantime I can just read what others have to say.
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 21:09
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Green Galdalf - they did mention that a proper higher definition version of the video would be out with the newsletter. You may have to wait for that.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 21:20
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Green - the video was uploaded to YouTube, the biggest video hosting site on the internet. If their site doesn't work for you, I'm afraid there is nothing we can do about it. You'll just have to wait for the newsletter so you can download a WMV version.

BTW YouTube does NOT require Java, just Flash and JavaScript. In Firefox that setting is under Tools - Options - Content - Enable JavaScript. In IE I can't remember and don't care as you shouldn't be using IE anyway

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Olby
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 21:42
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Quote: "In IE I can't remember and don't care as you shouldn't be using IE anyway"


Agree I love my FF, especialy the option which allows you to turn on/off javascripts (no more banner pop-ups)!

I think im gonna collect some cash for the DShader release.

AMD Sempron 3.1+ Ghz, 512MB Ram, ATI R9550 256MB Ram, Sound Blaster Live!, WinXP SP2, DirectX 9.0c, DBP 6.2
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 29th Oct 2006 22:57 Edited at: 30th Oct 2006 12:22
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Quote: "In IE I can't remember and don't care as you shouldn't be using IE anyway"


I'm sure there's a way ... (wanders off and sulks in corner)

But thanks for the help anyway

[Must make a few amendments to my Xmas card list ...]

[Edit: Well, what a performance. Tried using IE on my laptop instead and "Yippee", the demo started but then stopped after 6 secs (the end of the title screen) and refused to continue playing . Went back to PC and found FireFox lurking in a corner. That wouldn't open so I uninstalled and re-installed it. It then opened and gave same error message as IE. Checked JavaScript settings and re-installed Flash Player for umpteenth time. Everything seemed fine. Tried FireFox again. Still no joy . Made a cup of coffee and tried FireFox again just in case - the video started ... the suspense was getting to me now ... and YES!! there it was in all its glory, the demo actually ran !!!

And worth the wait .

Thanks to all who tried to help.]
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Philip
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Posted: 30th Oct 2006 22:56
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Quote: "You may have to wait for that."


Negative thinkin' from our resident Glaswegian? Thats very un-Tinky like.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 31st Oct 2006 14:56
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Negative? Not at all - the best things are worth waiting for. I know I'll be peering closely at the higher definition video once it appears. Anyway - it shouldn't be more than a day or so now

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Vues3d on Kalimee
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Posted: 1st Nov 2006 08:55
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Quite interesting..
Awaiting to get it!

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Hypno Screen
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2006 18:34
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I guess the shaders will work with DarkGDK.NET as well?

http://www.hypnoscreen.com
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Luminence
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2006 19:45
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Has a release timeframe been anounced yet? I've been looking around but couldn't find anything.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2006 19:56
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Hypno - I can't confirm that, but technically, you'd hope so.

Lumi - Q1 2007 is about as 'accurate' as we can be right now, sorry. It's a very progressing package.

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Luminence
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2006 21:05
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No need to appologize, I just figuired I missed it . Thanks for the fast feedback.
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VRMan3D
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Hi guys, this looks very nice. Well done indeed.

I'm working with lots of shaders for my upcoming game (Janger - a very full-featured Jenga-ish game using DarkPhysics and DBPro).

However....

My big question is, what did you use to create DarkShader? If you don't mind saying so, I'm curious if you actually wrote your DBPro tool with DBPro, or DGDK (both of which I proudly own and use 24/7 =)? And most of all I'm curious what you are using for the UI. It looks very nice. I like the panel on the left, a control I've been seeing a lot of lately (probably because it is an excellent and intuitive design for a control.) Is the GUI built using some known GUI tool like BlueGui?

Thanks for any information.

Best regards,
-=VRMan=-

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y2ksw
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Posted: 7th Nov 2006 15:52
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This one is going to be definitively one of the extensions I'll take out of the box

One question: the FX code (in the video) looks like the code in *.fx files. Is it *.fx compatible, at least up to a certain grade?
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 7th Nov 2006 16:42
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Thanks for the comments.

Quote: "what did you use to create DarkShader? ... what you are using for the UI"


The preview window is made in DBPro, and the main interface is made in C++ with MFC and BCGSoft

Quote: "the FX code (in the video) looks like the code in *.fx files. Is it *.fx compatible"


The code is standard HLSL shader language. Shader code on its own doesn't mean a lot until you use a renderer to display it (which provides the values for WorldViewProjection, etc), FX Composer uses its own renderer, DarkShader uses DBPro to render. So there may become differences in what each will read and support.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Nov 2006 13:03
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Quote: "The code is standard HLSL shader language. Shader code on its own doesn't mean a lot until you use a renderer to display it (which provides the values for WorldViewProjection, etc), FX Composer uses its own renderer, DarkShader uses DBPro to render. So there may become differences in what each will read and support."


Interesting response. Does that mean that DarkShader does not include any extra functionality? For example, will it still be the case that procedural textures and intermediate render targets are not supported?

Also, will there be detailed information on the supported semantics, effect and render states and their function? This sort of information is very hard to find at the moment.
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 8th Nov 2006 17:37
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Quote: "Does that mean that DarkShader does not include any extra functionality? For example, will it still be the case that procedural textures and intermediate render targets are not supported?"


That depends on what DBPro supports, currently for example scripts and procedural textures are not supported. However, fullscreen shaders will have more support than they do at the moment allowing you to set render targets in the shader code and have it draw screen quads for you. The method used won't be supported by FX Composer.

Quote: "...information on the supported semantics, effect and render states and their function?"


I can give you a list of the currently recognised semantics that dbpro will fill will data, but I don't know the exact values dbpro will use to fill them. Most of them are self explanatory, anything with an 'it' after it is 'inverse transpose'



The render states are read by DirectX rather than the renderer so any valid DirectX render state can be used in the 'pass' block. There is a good list of them here: http://www.toymaker.info/Games/html/render_states.html Anything with a "D3D..." in front of it should be removed, so D3DZB_FALSE becomes FALSE, D3DSTENCILOP_KEEP becomes KEEP, etc. Although I haven't tried all of them.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 8th Nov 2006 20:57
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Thanks Paul for a very helpful and clear response.

I'm not sure how self-explanatory the list of semantics is to most people. I'm happy with the various matrices:



but am unclear what the difference is between the following:


and am very unclear what the following are precisely (i.e. which light, light number or light position, etc?):



I guess "time" is in seconds as in HLSL, but "sintime" is what exactly? Is it the sine of time where time is interpreted as radians or degrees, or is it the sine of something else?

The toymaker resource looks useful. I'll browse that after supper.

Cheers.
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:16
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Quote: "but am unclear what the difference is between the following..."


As far as I know there is no difference, but it allows compatibility with those shaders that make might make use of one or the other.

Quote: "and am very unclear what the following are precisely..."


The only one of those I have used so far is "bonematrixpalette" which is used for doing bone weighted animation on the GPU, described in the "Skinning" section here: http://www.ati.com/developer/shaderx/ShaderX_CharacterAnimation.pdf

If you have FPSC you can see it used in the bumpbone.fx shader.

"sintime" is just the sine of the time value pre-calculated, it takes the time value as radians.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 22:31
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Thanks again Paul. That's very helpful.
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Jahya
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Posted: 17th Nov 2006 16:19
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Will this allow for procedurally generated shaders? Could we create a 'rust' shader to apply to any object with different seed values? Say, two identical tank models, with 2 different outcomes of the procedural shader?
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