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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Why oh why is this board run by a dictating crew?

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pokey
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:00
Is it me or is everyone here brainwashed by the DarkBasic crew and their moderators? I always concidered the internet as a medium of free speech but on this forum (which I used to visit regularly way back) one may only praise the product and not look at it with an objective point of view.

If someone comes to the forum and asks other people to convince him/her why DB would be preferred over another language, which is a highly valid question, such a post is looked upon as a flamebait and locked so any discussion is ruled out.

In real life this happens or happened in several countries as well. Iraque for instance, Argentina had problems with such policy, you name it. I find it highly disturbing that people who spend their money or are thinking about spending it on a product, shouldn't be silenced, but keep an open debate about possible pro's or cons about the product (DB in this case).

I already know the moderator doesn't know how fast he has to close this thread, but I hope I opened someone's eyes anyhow. I'm not flaming the language in any way, but merely the people upholding a wrong policy running the forum.

Greetz
Tea is the rear end of vanity
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:14
To convince DB is good than other languages.. is ok. But do u know wat will happen when u start telling DB vs certain XXX languages? Users will start telling good things about both languages .. true. But, how about users who starts 'shooting' either languages (telling bad stuffs about them)?

It will results in (everybody sing together with me) ...

FLAMESSSSS


Also, its gonna kill the marketability of both products, thats for sure.

Try refer back to previous old topics in this forum & RGT regarding these types of topics. U'll get the idea

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:15
I disagree with the policy of locking VS threads as well, but in the end, I consider it to be DarkBASIC Software's own loss - after all, they are forfitting the chance to allow users to argue in favour of DarkBASIC, and let's face it, you aren't going to get a pro-DB discussion on the Blitz / Jamagic / A5 forums.

However you ARE allowed to discuss the pros and cons of DBP, just not in comparison to other products.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:16
^^ ah yes, another point. Sadly there are some juveniles on this board who turn the whole thing into a flamebait. Pity.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:17
IMHO, when mods here lock certain topics like those, they not only save DB, they also avoid flaming other products as well.

To tell the fact, if u wanna find out about wats good on other products, why dun u just go to their forums and ask?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

roswell
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:18
I think you're missing the point of the forum rules. Throughout the existence of the DB forums, there have always been threads comparing Blitz and DarkBASIC. Unfortunately, these threads almost always degrade into a juvenile bashing on both products. The DB moderators have learned that these threads are never productive, and have decided to head them off before they get out of control.

Sorry if you feel this is infringing on your "freedom of speech", but please understand that this is a private forum and the Bill of Rights does not apply here. The owners of this board are perfectly within their rights to censor whatever they wish. Personally, I feel they are pretty liberal in what they allow. I've seen lots of threads that just bash on DB that haven't been closed. The DB moderators have simply chosen to implement a few rules based on past experience in an attempt to keep the forums as productive as they can.

/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Dual Athlon 2.0/1GB RAM/GeForce Ti4200-128/Win2000 Pro
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:22
I love this topic
Its more on discussion rather than:

"Ready men, aim.. FLAME!!!"



.. but i dunno how long can this topic last as a 'discussion topic'

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Dave J
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 18:22
I actually think this forum isn't that bad. 90% of other forums I go to are much, much stricter, you mention the owners name in a slightly negative way and you're banned for life.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
HZence
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 19:04
Yea, I hate that too.

There's a guy at mp3.com named Ryan Farish. When I signed his guest book asking why he had his name everywhere on his site and also why he had stated that he has "inspired millions around the world" (he lives in the U.S. and had at that time under 1,000,000 plays), they deemed my guest-book signing as obsessive and blocked my I.P. Seems that if you're putting down the guy than screw you because he only wants positive criticism.

I hate people like that.

pokey
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 19:37
Ahahah I know Ryan Farish from mp3.com, LOL That is, his music... Funny you mention that hehe

But ok, back to the topic. I made some of my comments because of a post I read earlier on the forum, that can be found at http://www.darkbasicpro.com/apollo/view.php?t=9449&b=1

In this post a user asks fellow forumreaders what the PRO's are of DBpro. I repeat, the PRO's of DB. IMHO that's a fair question. He is close to begging to be convinced to go for DBpro The oddest of thing happens a few replies further on... The thread is marked as flamebait...!

It's not that it's constantly happening, the closing of threads, but every now and then it really catches my eye and I truly wonder why. Maybe I was a bit blunt with some statements (a bit of a crooked comparison made here and there) but I think the post I mentioned illustrates my point quite good.

greetz

Tea is the rear end of vanity
InSiDeR
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 19:45
bah, just go with it.
besides its not like you live here. i mean if i were doomed to live here for the rest of my life, then i might raise an eyebrow. but since i dont, i couldnt give a $hit, indi and the other mods know what their doing, their not idiots(not that anyone here is saying that)

Personally i like the idea of 2 parties squaring it off and matching it up, in a political kind of way, but there are some idiots in here(well...maybe not at the moment...but their lurking) who for some reason take attacks at a language personally...i mean wtf.

honestly..wtf!

InSiDeR
Visit the NEW DBPlanet, Click Here
"...Yay i got one strap loose..."
The Game
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:03
I know we lost a possible customer for DBPro because of him asking which was better. http://www.darkbasicpro.com/apollo/view.php?t=9196&b=1

On the very same day he wrote on the Blitz board the same question in their public forum and he didn't get his thread locked..of coarse they said blitz was better cause of yada yada yada...but because of the thread being locked on this board he turned to Blitz since they didn't lock their's and gave him lots of reasons to use it.

Here is a quote from the person that posted in that link above in the other forum.

"I have actually tried to post this request to compare the two products on the dbpro forums and was told by the administrater "not to repost this message again as it is their policy to not have dbpro vs x threads", and then promptly locked the thread.

Needless to say i am definately going to get BB3D, I dont like the way Darkbasic operates.

Cheers guys "


Maybe locking threads should be done when the thread starts becoming a huge debate to stop the mud slinging. I know people like certain features of other products and start saying well this way is better than that way. But atleast let the thread grow a tad to see where it is heading before locking it up and possibly putting in a friendlier way to give the reason of locking it out.

I am the game and I want to play.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:12
hehee Bill of Rights ... remember this forum is based in the UK (don't have a Bill of Rights there )

that aside... product VS threads are a bit worthless - i mean i could sit here all day on a 3D Studio Max VS Maya post and spout of good points and bad points about both products, and i can tell you outright which one i prefer.
however at the end of the day it isn't my right to tell another use what he or she should use...
recommendations then fine - however as has been noted it is a proven given that you start a thread like this and people will just find an excuse to lower the tone and bash the other's product.

the way i see it all of the products on the market do have thier merits and pitfalls, but i don't see what showing my extremely love or hate for a product will accomplish in the long run.
i won't be programming that language for you, so what does it matter what i do and don't like ... and with languages like this it is oftenly all down to personal preferance rather than actual features.

i mean myself and other can achieve things in DBpro that would make you stand up and say "Hey i didn't know it was capable of that?"
but in the same instant, other can also push Blitz3D the same way and achieve things in that which would have the same effect!
the most major point there is that in all likelyhood we CANNOT achieve the same goal in the other product.
This isn't to say it isn't possible, but from our POV this limits the product because we are unable to use it in the same way as someone who has been for many months or years.

If you come here, then obviously DarkBasic Pro will also come out ontop and if you go over to Blitz Forums the same would be said about Blitz there... its a little hard to give an objective veiw of programs we personally prefer not use.
there are a couple of users around here who use both, but they are few and far between - and they still will tell you the only way you can choose which to use is to download the demo's and see which one your prefer.

at the end of the day they're doing the exact same jobs, and its level of experience which allows you to achieve more than is possible from what is written on the features infront of you.



Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:13
a program should stand up on its own merits, not those the users give it!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:50
belive it or not one main reason I bought DBP ove Blitz last year was because I asked on here for opions on both and I got alot of useful info, I asked the same question on the Blitz fourm and I was just flame for even thinking about DBP. To bad new customers are not getting this kind of openness anymore. Really this is a good place to ask about both Blitz and DB because several users on here use both.

CTP

Puffy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 21:27
Bud I'm just fallowing the rules... Rich says no vs. posts... I have to get rid of them... =P You guys haven't started a flame war so I'll leave this open...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 22:21 Edited at: 27th Apr 2003 22:21
The whole "DB/Pro vs. X" thread locking was my policy. The main reason why I don't believe it is beneficial is that very few people here are well versed enough in X to give an accurate comparison. Equally people in the Blitz forum are not, IMHO, very clued-up on DBPro either. This shows through massively in their posts. It does neither product any good when, even if it's not flame-bait, a post is made about X that is simply wrong. My policy I feel protects both packages, not just ours. At the end of the day there isn't a single package out there that doesn't offer a trial version and that is where your mind should really be made up, not in a biased commentry from a dedicated forum. No matter how objective you try to be, unless you know both packages absolutely inside out, it'll never be 100% fair to either side.

I am aware we may have lost a customer or two using this policy, but the numbers are most likely incredibly small - certainly nothing that could be considered harmful to our current sales figures - and in the posts I locked I nearly always offered for them to email me if they have specific questions/comparisons before locking. Strangely enough no-one ever did, which in my mind questions how much they really wanted to know about the product.

Maybe this is a policy I'll review in the future, but not for the moment. Topics allowed here are extremely lienient especially when you consider there is no "freedom of speech" on the Internet really. What appears here appears because we allow it, no other reason. As far as I'm concerned it protects both products from dis-information and if the Blitz guys got an extra sale out of this then fair play. If someone came here saying "these guys said X about DBPro" then that's different, I'd allow that to exist for certain.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
rapscaLLion
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 22:37
"The whole "DB/Pro vs. X" thread locking was my policy."
So don't blame the other mods

"The main reason why I don't believe it is beneficial is that very few people here are well versed enough in X to give an accurate comparison. Equally people in the Blitz forum are not, IMHO, very clued-up on DBPro either. This shows through massively in their posts. It does neither product any good when, even if it's not flame-bait, a post is made about X that is simply wrong."
Which is exactly right, I can go on about BB for ages, but if I haven't used the damn thing it's likely that all my points are based on other's OPINIONS or unvalidated facts. It doesn't help either product but

"My policy I feel protects both packages, not just ours."

is probably not really the true motivation

"At the end of the day there isn't a single package out there that doesn't offer a trial version and that is where your mind should really be made up, not in a biased commentry from a dedicated forum. No matter how objective you try to be, unless you know both packages absolutely inside out, it'll never be 100% fair to either side."
Exactly right, but noobs wouldn't know that...

"I am aware we may have lost a customer or two using this policy, but the numbers are most likely incredibly small - certainly nothing that could be considered harmful to our current sales figures - and in the posts I locked I nearly always offered for them to email me if they have specific questions/comparisons before locking. Strangely enough no-one ever did, which in my mind questions how much they really wanted to know about the product."

DBS as a business should not be interested in how much they want to know about the product, but more about answering those questions in a way that encourages purchase of DB/P etc.
I am VERY shocked that you are ignoring the few who don't even consider DB/P as a solution because of their treatment on the forum. When did DBS stop being a nice little company who needed every sale to a gigantic corperation that doesn't care about anyone who doesn't buy their product? Well let me tell you, your not that well off! All those little ones that get away, or rather are scared away represent LOST INCOME, and that just encourages more crap like the DB Expansion pack. I'm sorry, that was a cheap shot but it's the truth.

"Maybe this is a policy I'll review in the future, but not for the moment. Topics allowed here are extremely lienient especially when you consider there is no "freedom of speech" on the Internet really. What appears here appears because we allow it, no other reason. As far as I'm concerned it protects both products from dis-information and if the Blitz guys got an extra sale out of this then fair play. If someone came here saying "these guys said X about DBPro" then that's different, I'd allow that to exist for certain."

Do not review the policy, because no matter what, there will still be immature little brats or immature GROWN MEN who will continue to start flame wars. However, I really think you should review how you deal with these posts.

As far as freedom of speech goes, the internet is international, and not all countries have this. Basically you are free to say what you will on this board, but if it violates in anyway the standards laid out by DBS, it is deleted/locked etc.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 22:46
.. and the truth is never sweeter than that

Me think that Rich should stick a special post on top there:

'Whoever would like to ask questions regarding DBPro vs another product, pls email straight to Rich. We're trying to protect both software, and avoiding further misleading info. Have a happy flame-less ride home.'


Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Overdroid
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 22:48
Rich,
That's a great explanation. You might want to paste it onto the end of any threads being closed for these reasons. Sometimes people don't look farther than the thread they started.

"Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand."
- Unknown.
Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 00:11
"When did DBS stop being a nice little company who needed every sale to a gigantic corperation that doesn't care about anyone who doesn't buy their product? Well let me tell you, your not that well off! All those little ones that get away, or rather are scared away represent LOST INCOME, and that just encourages more crap like the DB Expansion pack. I'm sorry, that was a cheap shot but it's the truth."

Sad, but very true.

DBS has always been very good at marketing, but the product has failed to deliver on numerous occassions. I think that this is why some people moved to Blitz in the first place.

As for the expansion pack, I didn't mind about that too much, after all, many Blitz users have recently stated that they would be happy to pay for an update which added crucial features like cube mapping, rainbow shading and better DLL support.

Still if Lee ever wastes time on another 3D GameMaker style project (3/10 PCPlus) I'll phone MI6 and tell them that he is an al-Qaeda suspect. That applies to GameMaker Lite as well (3/10 PCPlus). No I didn't buy them, but someone ought to have been fixing bugs in DBC instead.

That reminds me, this new DarkMATTER pack that is in the works, is it just media or is it an expansion pack for the language?

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 01:37
I have no comments on the marketability of DBP (since its not my area & i dun wan to know the info!), but so far I'm in great shape with the s/ware

About the 3D Gamemaker, i personally dun think its a waste of Lee's time. I bought it for my bros & sis at home, they luved it, and it got them hooked to it! (they are 5 & 6 years old) I just think that the s/ware does wat its suppose to do, attract ppls who are non-programmer/non-game developer, to make games while having fun doing them. In my mind, if Lee makes another one of those s/ware, I'll certainly buy them for my siblings.

err.. i think we should give Lee a hard time on fixing them bugs, he is working hard at them, just report to him about new bugs as usual

As for the new DarkMatter pack, me personally think u just send an email to Rich ... err .. mainly because only he can answer that!


my 2 cents for tonite

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Kangaroo2
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 02:54
Argh nooo not another 3dgm post. Hmm I'll keep quiet but at least say that if lee/mike make another one, an import/export of dbcode and royalty free models would b very welcome

And btw down with the moderators! *Obvious sarcasm* check the avatar

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 03:01
Anyone reading this do bear in mind that both Robs and Raps comments are based on their own assumptions and are in no way backed by any inside knowledge or company data. What may be considered a "waste of time" has no financial analysis behind it and no concept of the way in which it altered income for the company and thus contributed to DBS existing here today.

They are personal opinions, nothing more and should carry no more weight or influence than that. Agreed they are ones they are entitled to have, but not necesarily held with a view of the wider picture.

"is probably not really the true motivation"

That again is your assumption raps, an incorrect one - yes, but still just an assumption. Look at it from this point of view - you don't believe that I'd rather not have a pro DB thread at the expense of another product if that thread contained misleading information? You are wrong and this is not a point for argument, it's a fact. Why? because it reflects extremely badly on this company, we are the ones hosting this forum. In this game you do not benefit anything by slagging, or being allowed to slag (even indirectly via a forum), a competitor. If you can't accept this rather more mature approach then fair enough, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. What goes on on the Blitz forum is up to them.

"this new DarkMATTER pack that is in the works, is it just media or is it an expansion pack for the language?"

As it stands at the moment (in concept phase), it's media.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 03:26
Quote: "if lee/mike make another one, an import/export of dbcode and royalty free models would b very welcome "



...

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Solidz Snake
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 03:49
Quote: "check the avatar "



Congratez u made Mod status mate!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

ZomBfied
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 05:00
I must have rocked the boat a little with that second one... Anyhow the most true thing said is go to blitz.com and try their friggin demo. If you like it, use it --on the other hand that takes a lot of time and effort to really learn it enough to see it's advantages or not. There are people who've used both why not email them?

As DB expands it does seem lose some of that feeling of closeness to their user base like you saw back in the db1 days --I got the same feeling when MP3.com got really huge and started to be all about promoting major label artists.

But it's still not the impartial giant of a company --just look at all the time that must have went into each of our entries on the retro comp or ask Rich to help you with a technical question. He gets back to you! Lee even rears his now and then to address things directly to users. That's why I'm here --even with all the bugs. Bugs will get fixed. They always do, but the attitude and the language itself is good.

I'm not alone, though when I recall that sinking feeling when I got DBpro and tried to run a db1 project, my eyes wide with the anticipation of improved framerates, smaller exes, more options etc only to find that it went about 1 frame a second from 30 and it took way longer to load up. I started over and found ghosted and transparent objects didn't work properly.. then patch 4 after a huge wait gave me no real speed increase (a decrease in fact) and (while fixing the ghosting problems) introduced random intermittent crashing to windows.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:14
There's nothing stopping any 3rd party producing a decent list of pros/cons for a comparison chart, of DBpro against whomever you'd like. Would this be impartial though.. Unlikely...

But I've said it before, DBS should do this themselves. It would help new/old customers obtain a more informed choice right of the bat. It may even perhaps help their appearance in the court of public opinion.

Rather than lock a VS thread, redirect them to chart such and such.

l8r,
Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
blather
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:20
I think by far this has to be the most civil post I have ever seen on such a topic, anywhere. I wondered over here form the Db forums. After reading all the posts on the topic and having tried many demos, I chose DB to start with for one reason only. I AM NOT A PROGRAMMER….yet. I looked at some books on activeX after visiting this site and bot ,oh boy I am soooo glade that I do not have to learn that stuff now, maybe later.

“I just think that the s/ware does wat its suppose to do, attract ppls who are non-programmer/non-game developer, to make games while having fun doing them.”

I could not agree more, The Beginner’s guide has helped a lot and so has this site. My only questions are “Will there be another book which will give more envelop –pushing examples later?” and “What about a similar book for 3D Canvas Pro v6?” I have used the PLE for Maya for a while now and will start my 3D modeling classes next year. I would love to try the canvas product out, is there a demo?

"N. foolish talk esp. in great quantity"
Webster's
indi
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:22
My views only

x vs x posts are usually spawned by people who cant be bothered to test it for themselves.

I wouldnt take the random advice presented on the net by users as gospel for advice to choose a product.

Thats like practising brain surgery from advice and techniques on a forum.

I would benchmark both applications for my intended purposes.

Both programs still might not be the solution after u made your inferior assessment due to advice you thought was valid.

validation of information is so misguided lately.

Hardly anyone validates where they get there info so its not a very clever way to get a proper indication.

I would download both and actually test them in accordance with what
I wanted the use the application for.

Research and Development isnt as easy as a x vs x post to attain a true indication of each packages nuiances.

Its actually stupid to judge programs like that without even looking at both intensley yourself.

You cant even judge a program properly until u have a goal to attain to.

Mulling around with snippets is ok but a true progression is to have a goal to try and reach.

You find many solutions on the way and develop an insight into the pacakge.

I think this forum is one of the cleanest areas on the net compared to other forums I have visited.

I think you will find we are tolerant and allow for discussion even tho its sometimes repetitive diatribe.

Not everyone is aware of the recent past with x vs x debate People seem to forget this is an international placeand not your bedroom loungrroom /studio.


It seems some American kids cant fathom that and deduct that its all american and under a united states policy.

Its understandable they think that way but its not acceptable if they think its a right to project there countries rules here.

We all have to live in accordance with our own country and we should take this place as a meeting ground for ideas only.

It shouldnt be a forum to project your politcal views, just a palce to share information regarding multimedia game development namely DBP.

Since no one has total insight to both packages short of Lee B and Mark silby grafted into the one person. No one will have all the answers, so the debate is pointless.

Your always most welcome to make your own forum and conduct it the way you like it or you can show respect and try to follow the rules presented here.

Reminds me of MAc vs PC days, Its also usually the Windows PC users who attempt this kind of team division.
I have no idea why that persona seems to dwell within the pc user.
I hear so many people trash other systems and business systems yet I use them to produce material for the competition.

I think u will find the companies have a much better liason with each other than u prolly realise. Especially compared to the nonsense that happens between users of different products and packages.

No one wants to feel like they got an inferior product, but thats soley up to your Research and Developement before u purchase.

Some people deny themselves options due to other opinions.
How lame is that, Id perform a check myself after any information was presented to me.

Programming is a science in many forms, If u dont have a certain objective view then u might as well give it all up now.

If you dont have flexability or can adapt to changes then the law of the jungle will wipe you out.

Use a tool for an intended purpose and keep an open mind regarding new methods and tools and you wont become a jaded stone when it comes to being flexible as things progress.

Its the same with holdens vs fords.

Male ego bruising is what causes most of this silly nonsense.

A lot of the time tho peoples motives are for purely selfish reasons.

A rare few will project a positive non selfish post but thats rare in todays standards.

Posts are projections of views. It would help to spend some time and evaluate the motive for the post before u hit that button

we all have the same goal, why fight each other.

That depends on peoples focus and keeping focus.

So many times a bug will make u stop and then u enter the forums and project your views about it without clear insight.

motivation : frustration.
Its easy to decipher what intention a post has.

I think this post is a positive one to hopefully clear up some of these new rules and guidleines.

Shadow Robert
23
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:24
i hope you mean blitz3d.com cause blitz.com is something quite different

i think the post i made within the last few vs threads have been really what should be said to anyone trying to get into programming.
the language used could technically be the best in the world - but if you don't like its setup and don't get along with its syntax then you'll never produce anything which you'll like and just give up after a short time. Annoyed at spending all of your hard ernt pennies on something you'll most likely never use again.

those who go off and believe that having a product praised by the community it comes from is a sign that it is worth it, then these are really the people who aren't going to be around as long as any of the oldies here, because they are the people who don't give products a fair chance they only want to be told what is best.

it's like ya parents always say, if your mate told you to jump off a bridge would you do it? of course ya bloody wouldn't unless you were retarded in someway.
Even if this was the best looking bridge in the world, unless its under 15ft tall you'll be as good as hitting pavement - your mate who's been jumping off of this bridge since he was yay height already has all the padding and protection he knows he needs to succeed!

see the point is, no one should make up your mind about something... at the end of the day it isn't thier $70-120 that is being spent, it isn't thier freetime being used up, it isn't them who has to deal with the language and use it.
if they're not going to be the ones using it for you, then why should what they say matter about it?

the way i see it, all current languages have websites, they have demonstrations - you download the ones you think will suit you and try them out.
thats how you determine if they're worth the money you'll pay.

i've noticed alot of people around here go around wanting every little thing done for them, they can't figure out howto get the camera to move, or they can't figure out what a memblock does (yet ironically they understand how the file commands and types work)
these people obviously have no real interest in learning the language at all because they want everything they need on a plate.

i can understand this from alot of the younger users i guess, rather than understanding the wheel to make thier own they want someone just to give them the tool which automatically makes the wheel.
only problem with this concept is when you want to attach the wheel to something, cause you don't know how it works its a hit and miss on how you use them.
if you understand how it works then you can get down to using it how it is ment to - even better you could even improve the design.

well worth some thought

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
blather
23
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Location: United States
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:33
“if you understand how it works then you can get down to using it how it is meant to - even better you could even improve the design.”

Improve the design? Do you mean go open source? It could be interesting to see esp with the amount of well versed users on des’boards.

"N. foolish talk esp. in great quantity"
Webster's
indi
23
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:37
theres an SDK for access to a lower level and DLL access to help implement your own works.

If u mean total open source then I dont think that will ever happen.

blather
23
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Location: United States
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:42
Interesting. Though I only just started reading about SDKs I understand what you mean somewhat. I will file this away for after I finish my next programming class.
Thanks

"N. foolish talk esp. in great quantity"
Webster's
blather
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Location: United States
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:45
OH, I almost forgot. So I can add it to the file how do I access the SDK?

"N. foolish talk esp. in great quantity"
Webster's
indi
23
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:48
Im not sure where the SDKinfo is.

I think it may be only privvy to DBDNers but i could be totally wrong.

I havent explored it enough but Im aware its there when I need to alook into it.

raven might know more regarding that

IanM
Retired Moderator
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Location: In my moon base
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:50
Nah. Just use explorer to navigate to your DBPro folder, and its in Help\documents ... I think. Not on my own PC at the mo.
blather
23
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Location: United States
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 07:56
Thanks for the info it has been added. BTW I am still using DB but by July I plan to be working with DBpro. For now I am only doing the research needed to, as it had been said earlier, keep the goals coming. Well back to the interface, I need to keep working on learning.

"Who ever said the Brits were stuffy, should have been stuffed in the trash himself."
J. Hatfield, my American History teacher

"N. foolish talk esp. in great quantity"
Webster's
Shadow Robert
23
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 08:16
teehee
yeah all the info you need is in the [DBPRODIR]\HELP\DOCUMENTS\
patch5 will see an updated SDK release, suppose to be a bit deeper than just general access and a single header file - mainly so that we can develop our own model format importers and such.
so atleast 2 header libraries should be included hehee
certainly do look forward to the update though, hopefully with an .axn for projects.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Jmansr
23
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Location: Canada
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 09:13
Throughout this whole thing, I just can't stop thinking about how people aren't even allowed to post on the blitz board till they've bought it. So yea, no matter what this forum will never be THAT bad.

Blue Blood FX
Check it out, RIGHT NOW!
http://blueblood.bandedsoftware.com
mhack
23
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Location:
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 09:14
I want to support authors of DB, I know from my own experience that VS threads never lead anywhere.. You can always decide for your self go to this board ask questions, go to XXX board ask questions and compare.. You don't have to start a flame war to get clear understanding of each product + and -..

ZomBfied
23
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 09:59
"Reminds me of MAc vs PC days, Its also usually the Windows PC users who attempt this kind of team division.."

Really? I've noticed quite the opposite. Especially on forums like this.... not to change the subject too much, though.

indi
23
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 10:36
Ive never heard a mac user go errr a windows box!

I hear that a lot from ignorant pc users tho.

Kangaroo2
23
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 13:04
lol @ http://www.blitz.com man, we'd better watch out for competition from those guys

@ Solidz : lol Cheers

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Nilrem
23
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 13:07
Quote: "Ive never heard a mac user go errr a windows box!"


Well I've never seen a pair of speakers explode, but they do.

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Shadow Robert
23
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 14:08
a mac user won't got "errr a windows box?" probably cause it's an IBM compatible, but then again i don't know anyone now who doesn't know that a mac is just another PC
i mean it is pretty hard to escape the 6million adverts for the iMac and iBook and G4 Mac computers (aleast with the US and UK it is)
however about 5years ago i'd of agreed, but the same statement could be posed about Amiga - unless you're from the generation that used them, you won't have a clue.
Macintosh has never been a greatly used computer, and is quite remarkable that whilst Acorn & Amiga went belly up - Mac's using identical technology have prevailed.

thing i wanna know is how many people can you talk to who know what an SGi machine is? or what a Workstation computer is?
most would probably say they've never heard of SGi and think a Workstation is what they have at college

personally the only Macintosh's i can standard are those running AmigaOS or Linux - cause its not the machine i hate but the OS... you put a GeForce card inside a Mac and run an OpenGL program and it can run rings around it's PC equivilant (^_^) - doesn't make it very friendly to use though

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Rob K
Retired Moderator
23
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 16:13
"What may be considered a "waste of time" has no financial analysis behind it and no concept of the way in which it altered income for the company and thus contributed to DBS existing here today."

True. I guess the 3D GameMaker probably sold well, given that it is a click'n'play solution.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
24
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Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 19:01
Rob - yes. A lot of people simply don't want to learn to program - not yet and in some cases, never. You however do wish to further your programming knowledge, so for you T3DGM has no interest value at all. Understandable. But it doesn't apply to everyone.

Kev - a comparison chart would be interesting, there is already one on the A5/Conitec site, so perhaps we should create something similar. For now I need to finish our DB compared to DBPro chart but I'll consider a DBPro vs. X one next. It would be more useful than telling them to email me (assuming they read it).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
pokey
23
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Posted: 28th Apr 2003 21:03
I have been around since version 1.06 of DB, and was used to the old forums and I must admit that the forum is less erh... Offensive, that´s true. Maybe because I rarely post lately?

But that must be credited to the moderators as well. Anywayz, I hope to catch up with coding DB soon on a more regular basis. Maybe I´ll extend my good ol´ matrixeditor PokeyEdit some more in future

greetz

Tea is the rear end of vanity
BoB Vila
23
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Location: United States
Posted: 28th Apr 2003 23:22
Actually, it was the Comparison chart on Conitec's site that pushed me over the edge into buying DBP.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)

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