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DarkBASIC Discussion / The DB Classic Programming Challenge Thread

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Latch
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 23:35
@roddman

Not Bad!

The area selection box is one of the best ways to select 3d in DBC - you don't have to worry about any vectors or angle skewing due to the 3d. You can treat the whole scene as 2d. And it's easy to select multiple objects at once.

Enjoy your day.
Libervurto
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 18:35 Edited at: 31st Jul 2007 18:51
@roddman
good start!
I couldn't get it to select the spheres individually? [edit] YES I COULD
And I couldn't pitch the camera (maybe I just didn't look at the controls)

Your "startup", "main arrays" and "setup world" can all be turned into gosubs, or these could all be in one big gosub.
GOSUBS GOSUBS GOSUBS, I love gosubs it's amazing how easier code is to follow if you use them.

I am King of the noobs!
roddman
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 18:46
Quote: "I couldn't get it to select the spheres individually?"

I know, i'm working on math to make the selection pixel perfect. Right now it just goes off of the screen position (X,Y) and subtracts 10 pixels on each side, which is good for far away but not very good close up. (When close to the spheres you have to drag the box over the exact center of the circle or it wont work.

Quote: "I couldn't pitch the camera"

That is the way I made it. I was going off of something like sim city or Age of Empires or something, where you can rotate the camera and zoom but not tilt. I might change this to tilt the camera as you zoom out.

I like gosubs too, I already have about 10 or more.

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 18:52
@CR
What is most important for this challenge? The accuracy of the object selection, or how good the game is?

I am King of the noobs!
Comrade Robski
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 20:10
Obese - since the aim of the challenge is to select objects, accuracy is clearly a very important aspect.

remember everyone you don't have to produce a finished game
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 21:15
Quote: "The area selection box is one of the best ways to select 3d in DBC - you don't have to worry about any vectors or angle skewing due to the 3d. You can treat the whole scene as 2d. And it's easy to select multiple objects at once."
I don't know how you guys can just sy that as if it's as easy as cls.

I never tell the truth.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 21:33
@INH
Don't worry, Roddman uses the same idea as yours, he just added a dragging function.

I am King of the noobs!
Latch
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 22:21
@INH

Quote: "I don't know how you guys can just sy that as if it's as easy as cls"


It is definately tricky to select 3d in DBC and it is not "easy" per se. But the methods range from using the camera field of view to convert the mouse position into 3d coordinates relative to the camera, to using the POINT() command to check for different colors under the mouse.

I meant that out of the methods to implement for 3d selection in DBC, using a square that exapands to cover an area, is easier to code and more accurate than most other methods. Your method, a very good method by the way, for example, takes the center point of a 3d object and uses an approximation for the x and y in each direction from the center. This is fine if the objects are uniform in shape, don't change their angles, and remain the same distance from the camera. But unless you account for a scaling factor and angle changes and size differences based on the object and/or camera angle, the further away from the camera the object gets, the less accurate the selection, unless you click on the center of the object. If the objects are far enough away from the camera and next to each other, then they might both be clicked on if their areas overlap. And if the object is very skinny in the x direction and wide in the z direction, if it rotates 90 degrees on y, the x across the screen size will be much more, but the area the mouse click is checking for will not change - unless you code for rotation and distance.

The area selection box allows the user to adjust the capturable area thus enabling an easy method for multiple selection or even selecting a single object. This is a 2d method so the only thing you have to look for is the center position of the object and capture that somewhere in your selection box. If you want to expand the possible capture on the object area, then you can combine it with the method you used.

In regards to your entry, it seems that the DELETE SPRITE command seems to be the culprit in causing it to crash. I can't figure out why. Try replacing delete sprite with hide sprite, and then show sprite when it needs to be displayed. I tried just eliminating DELETE SPRITE from the program (I didn't change it to hide sprite) and the program ran without crashing - though the menu remained on screen.

Enjoy your day.
roddman
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 22:51
@Latch

I had that same idea of using Camera FOV (which equals out to around 1.08 or something) and also using a formula for distance to get much more accuracy from the selection box.

Im going to try to make a new function that takes into acount the XRotation of the camera, the Distance to the object, the radius of that object, and of course the Camera FOV.

But like you said it only works on objects uniform in shape.

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 00:44 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 02:39
I've just had an idea for how to do this in a very sneaky way
Will post something if it works lol.
[EDIT]
couldn't get it to work. I wanted to put an object on each vertex and the get the area from their screen positions.
here's my "entry".



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roddman
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 04:16 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 16:12
This is my updated entry

Selection box accuracy has been increased
Selection box now takes camera distance into account
You can now tilt the camera using < and >



Cory
Latch
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 04:48 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 12:50
@Obese87

Quote: "I wanted to put an object on each vertex and the get the area from their screen positions."


That is sneaky! That's a new one! Actually quite clever. I'm thinking that it would take six objects to get the upper and lower limits of x,y and z - or you could reposition one object at the limits, grab the screen x and y's and then move the object to the next limits, record the x,y etc. Then do the mouse within the limits.

Enjoy your day.
Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 15:27 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 15:30
Quote: "I'm thinking that it would take six objects to get the upper and lower limits of x,y and z "

Yes, it was going to evolve to that.
Using one object and moving it is a good idea, I can't get it onto the vertices though
There isn't a command like VERTEX POSITION X(object,vertex) is there?
If only I could use memblocks
Is the challenge still going?

Your sig was erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120
I didn't know about that rule and it was 659 x 126!
Isn't that a little OTT? I'm gonna have to re-make it because of 65 pixels!!!
Comrade Robski
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 17:08 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 17:11
The challenge ends in around 9 hours. However I won't be able to officially close the contest until around 09:00 GMT tomorrow.

PS and OBese87, your sig was actually 11,034 pixels too big

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 22:18 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 22:42
Quote: "9 hours"

Ahhh!
Edit: Well I'm not gonna be able to get my code working in time, so here's a new one, the remed loads are for it with media, but that's not allowed of course... it's not finnished, but I love my cutscene. Actually, it's rubbish, but the mediad one is better.


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I always tell lies is though.
Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Aug 2007 23:30 Edited at: 1st Aug 2007 23:50
@INH
Wow! you sure have come on a long way in the last fortnight
Still don't like the placing of some of your gosubs but hey at least there aren't any in the main loop
The intro is awesome, must have taken ages. Good storyline too.
I got two of my drones to the other side but nothing happened?

Quote: "mediad"

Who's using incorrect grammar now then?

[EDIT]
AND WHERE ARE YOUR RETURNS!!

Here is my function for fading in or out of a screen.


And here's a bit of code that will fade in and then out, I've included a customized wrapvalue function too.


Put the two together and I think you'll get what you wanted for the "A new time begins..." screen
I think it would look cool if you fade in and out for each shot in the intro

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 00:21 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 00:43
Quote: "Wow! you sure have come on a long way in the last fortnight"

Thell me about it...
But seriously, thanks. Yeah, I'm bad with gosubs. I would show you the media'd (That Is grammatically corrct) version, which is much better, but that would mean basically handing copyrights over to TGC, so no.
You can't win cause it's not finnished, but sometime I'll direct you to my website at which you can download it.
If I, in extreme unlikely circumstance, win, secnd place will have to do it because I'm off to Bovey Tracey!
Edit:Here's the better code with your super cool fade function! Oh yeah, you can win now too.

Making the cutscene didn't take me that long, I'm OK a the complicated stuff, it's just the basics that I get stuck on. (You and I would make a great team!) Sorta like maths, quadratic sequenses, no prob, times tables, ahh!
I really don't feel like I'm showing this program in it's best light, I really wanna show you the media'd!

I never tell the truth.
That ain't a paradox.
I always tell lies is though.
roddman
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 03:13
@INH

Nice! Even without the media the cutscene is still pretty cool. I also liked Obese's functions too.

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 15:01 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 15:04
@INH
You are using some variables you don't need, here are my suggestions.

This


can be...


This


can be...


Or you could just use the fade function here (did you miss these ones?).
Glad you like the fade function , glad you worked out that 0 fades out, sorry should have said that (I've started putting "~" in front of functions to distinguish them from arrays).
I would have made the fade a little slower though.

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Comrade Robski
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 17:16
OK challenge over - a little late as I got delayed. Well a good few entries so I'm pleased about that. I'll let you know the result ASAP!
Phaelax
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 04:44
ASAP isn't fast enough!!!


Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 22:36
It has been over 24hrs.

@LBFN
I think you should get ready to judge (is that the rule?).
You haven't updated the item chasing challenge (or is it only Phaelax that can do that?).

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LBFN
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 15:25
Obese

The rule says
Quote: "9. If the challenge setter fails to judge entries or set a new challenge within 24 hours of the deadline, responsibility for judging and setting a new challenge will pass to the previous runner up."


Therefore, judging falls to Ninja999, the runner up of the previous challenge.

LB
Comrade Robski
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 16:28 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 16:28
OK sorry guys if you still want to accept my judging then it is as follows:

Insert Name Here: 'Flamewars' - very nice use of textures and primitaves to make some interesting models. Object selection works just fine. Liked the menu system too - sometimes it crashed, as discussed in the thread. Good work

Obese87: Nice pizzabox texture, but I can't select them

Insert Name Here: 'A New Time Begins' (is that the title??) - Looks like the beginning of a great game - liked the cut scenes a lot. These will be superb with media, if that's what you plan on. The object selecting itself was accurate and reliable. Nothing happened when I moved the robots off the edge of the screen - I guess this is as far as you've got with the game

Roddman: Very good game, liked it a lot, once I got used to the men moving to the crosshair not the mouse, as I originally thought. Very good object selection routine.

Good entries and interesting discussion during this challenge. I'm pleased to announce the winner is



and runner up is:

Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 16:47
Unlucky INH, thought you had a real chance there.
Well done Roddman, I couldn't really understand your game but the object selection worked which is the main thing
I guess I couldn't win this one with pizza lol

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Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 17:04
@TDK
In your "Part 3 - Elementary Commands" tutorial you say that "CLS used on its own will clear the screen black". That's not true, it will clear the screen to the background colour as set in the INK statement.
Had to triple check this before questioning you lol

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TDK
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 18:08
I'm pretty sure it worked as stated with the version of DB used when that tutorial was written.

However as you say, it doesn't now, so I've now updated the tutorial to correct this.

TDK_Man

Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 18:52 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 18:55
@TDK
glad to be of help

@All
It's been a while since the last challenge ended, if you'd like I could set the next challenge as I didn't have an entry.

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roddman
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 19:26 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 22:04
Thanks everyone for the feedback
My entry didn't turn out like I wanted it to but I did manage to get the selection box to work fairly well.

So anyway since this was my first entry in this challenge, I dont really know which challenges have been done already so I am willing to change it if everyone wants

I'm setting the next challenge as Deathmatch Arena
I was thinking of an FPS type game (although it's not required) where the player can pick the number of enemies they want to fight, also the number of lives they have, etc.

Rules-
Doesn't have to be an FPS (doesn't even have to involve guns)
[Edit] 3d is not required, it can be a 2d game
Killed enemies Must respawn until player wins game
The player will also respawn until they are out of lives
There is no maximum number of enemies to include
[Edit] The minimum number of enemies is 1
You must include a way to keep score

I don't want to get too technical on the rules
Bonus points given for the complexity of the maps again 3d is not required
Bonus points given for extra team members or allys
Bonus points for any other cool things you can think of
[Edit] Better AI will also get more points

I'll set the time limit as two (2) weeks
Deadline Saturday August 18th at midnight (EST)
Give me some feedback on this challenge

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 20:43 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 23:29
Hmmm... This seems pretty difficult but I'm willing to give it a shot.
My AI sense is tingling
no media is gonna be a killer for this one.

[EDIT]
I have 19 last posts on the DBC page!!! lol

Here's some little 2D guys I made, they can be any colour.

Mine is going to be a side-scrolling capture the flag type thing.

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Crazy Programmer
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 21:21
I might just join in on this one


http://www.freewebs.com/zornoxstudios/
Learning C++ thanks DGDK
Link102
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 21:33 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 21:35
Quote: "no media is gonna be a killer for this one."

I'm working on a picture scanner, so that won't be a problem for me
(It scans a picture and outputs the colorcodes in a text file, you can just copy,past it)

Don't look at my sig!
roddman
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 22:00 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 23:38
@Obese
That's fine, it can be 2d or 3d just as long as there is at least one (AI driven) enemy in the game.

@Everyone
It doesnt have to be very complex (however more complex = more points) you could just have a player, an enemy, and a simple matrix to fight on.

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 23:08 Edited at: 4th Aug 2007 23:30
Quote: "I'm working on a picture scanner, so that won't be a problem for me "

That's just what I was trying to do! but I can't do it
The bitmap commands are so slow too.

[EDIT]
More little dudes and a flag.


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roddman
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 23:41
@Link102
That sounds like a really good idea but it might end up making a really large file. I mean take a very small bitmap, lets say 10x10 that is 100 pixels each with 3 colors (RGB) so even with a small picture you already have a file containing 300 numbers.

Cory
Latch
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Posted: 4th Aug 2007 23:48
Quote: "It scans a picture and outputs the colorcodes in a text file"


Technically this is the same as loading a media file. It's just another format so it should be against the rules. If I were to break a snapshot down into data statements and include that in a program, that's the same as loading the snapshot as a .jpg or .bmp. The point of the DBC challenge is to create the media by hand using the commands available in DBC.

Enjoy your day.
NinJA999
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 00:49
@Latch - I think you are right. There are rules against doing that in the DBPro challenge, and I think there should be the same rules in this challenge.

Hmm...not sure I will enter this challenge, looks to be too challenging, but maybe seeing as this is probably the last challenge before school starts :-(.

roddman
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 01:49
Thats a tough one but on the first page one of the rules is
Quote: "No external media is allowed"

Couldn't Link102's idea be considered Internal Media (If there is such a thing) since it is technically inside the program?

The program will still run on all computers without any additional media downloads.

Cory
Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 01:59
I drew all of my images for jack and the beanstalk in paint before typing them into DB, so is that cheating?
And I've posted images for this game I'm making now and even using these images in test programs.
I think it's a clever idea if he gets it working, it is cheating but technically it's within the rules because there is no external media.
But if this is allowed it won't be too long before someone extremely clever does the same for 3D objects! Then internal media will be the same as external, which we don't want.
The only way I can think to stop this is to ban DATA statements, but I use them a lot
or maybe there should be a colour limit or size limit for a data block.
Let's see what TDK says

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Latch
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 06:51 Edited at: 9th Aug 2007 21:05
Quote: "Couldn't Link102's idea be considered Internal Media "


This is a programming challenge, not a copy and paste challenge.

Quote: "The only way I can think to stop this is to ban DATA statements"


Don't be silly. You can design your own media using data statements - a 3d layout of rooms for example. And there's about 10,000 other uses. The whole point is testing out one's own chops in what they can do. Not everyone has the same abilities, that goes without saying, but looking at coded ways of doing things, borrowing and adapting that to your purposes, makes one a better programmer and tests themselves to see what they can come up with.

Quote: "it is cheating but technically it's within the rules because there is no external media."


This is not a policing issue but negates part of the challenge.

I was surprised to find that I could produce most anything with a bit of time and effort that I could with a media package just using the non-enhanced commands. I'm no artist, so visually my stuff doesn't look so great one way or the other. I've written a program for just about every challenge (even ones I've set) but I've actually only submitted a few (I don't want everything in the public domain!) - everything from a 3d directx object creator, to text editing and manipulation functions - mostly due to trying to push the limits on the challenges. My point is just to say that the challenges offer an opportunity to push your own limits towards a specified goal.

Enjoy your day.
Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 15:54
So if you used the 3D object maker that you created, would that be cheating?
I'm getting confused about what is right and wrong
I will continue to type in my bitmap values

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Latch
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 19:01
The program itself builds the 3d object using functions with parameters. It's calculated out mathematically/programatically and changes according to the values set in the parameters inside the challenge program. Programatically in the scense of how one might draw a texture that gradates using the line command and changing the color throughout a loop. The texture is created on the spot using code. The same with the 3d - the x,y and z are calculated based on the size and shape parameters.

Quote: "I'm getting confused about what is right and wrong "

I don't know if there's a right or wrong per se - because if someone mapped out a drawing on graph paper and then used that as data statements, is that loading media? My point is, one learns more if they try to create the effect by the content of their code. The challenge judge can decide what is acceptable or not for a particular challenge. When everyone is limited to just having to use DOT, LINE, BOX for example, and the other DBC commands, it levels the playing field a bit. I'm sure a very nice button with 3d shading can be created in Photo Shop, converted to data statements, and then used as media - but someone without a paint program will have to DOT and LINE their way to a button without a ready made map. It's up to the judge.

Enjoy your day.
TDK
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 21:16
I agree with much of what has been said already.

All media used by the program should be created by the program using DB's 2D drawing commands. You are not allowed to use any LOAD commands, so technically, data statements are within the rules. Data statements also have legitimate uses, so banning them outright is an unnecessary restriction.

Using an external program to convert images and/or other media files to data statements is therefore also within the rules as they are written at the moment, but I personally would class it as cheating and against the spirit of the challenges.

As such, when judging I would actually award less points to an entry which contains hundreds and hundreds of data lines where it's obvious what has happened.

We could if deemed necessary, create a rule limiting the number of data items to say 1024 - which would limit users to creating a sprite, maze or play area of 32x32 or less.

TDK_Man

Link102
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 21:31
I agree on useing scanned pictures.
although i'm not going to stop on making the scanner (usefull for the code base). I'm not going to use it in my entry (if there is one)

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Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 22:49
@Link
If you made a 32x32 image and then used your scanner program I wouldn't have a problem with that

I'm going to write a program that makes its own DBC Challenge entries . That would be the most amazing thing ever!

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roddman
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 01:33 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 04:53
If everyone is OK with allowing the use of internal media, I think it would be great to see some entries that put it to use. But as TDK said the size limit would be 32x32

Internal image allowed up to 32x32
[Edit] I actually meant External images converted then copied into the program
I don't think we should deduct points for using this method because it would actually take a certain amount of skill to set something like that up.

@Obese
Im looking forward to seeing your 2d entry

[Edit]
@ TDK
That's what I meant to say I just didn't word it right
Thanks for catching that

Cory
TDK
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 03:55
Quote: "Internal image allowed up to 32x32"


Actually, I was thinking of that being a limit only to images created by converting paint program images to data statements.

It can't be a limit on general images because you might want to create half a dozen 256x256 (or greater) textures for a matrix using the 2D drawing commands.

The idea is to prevent users using external media (files) - whichever way they try to get round it...

TDK_Man

Latch
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 07:39
Quote: "You are not allowed to use any LOAD commands"


@TDK
Really? Sometimes disk access is necessary for things like making a database, or storing screen data for faster access than what can be achieved through the POINT command, or building a certain type of file that your challenge entry would use. I think your golf entry built and stored a .bmp file for use on the matrix. That seems acceptable because your challenge code built the file itself.

Enjoy your day.
LBFN
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Joined: 7th Apr 2007
Location: USA
Posted: 6th Aug 2007 14:59
It seems like the fun and challenge of creating programs in DBC is moving into a legalistic quagmire here. I want to be able to code something that is certainly within the rules, but I don't want those rules to be so burdensome or unevenly balanced that they are discouraging.

To me, there's no way you can compare images that are generated with line, box and point with programming something to disassemble the RGB colors of a scanned image. I want to be able to make the play area the size I want and use the data statements I need without worrying about whether I have used too many.

While I do agree that it would take some programming prowess to figure out how to take a scanned image and create an internal image, I think that it goes against the spirit of the challenge, though technically it would be correct. I don't know how a judge could compare them, as the effort put forth to manually generate images can be quite labor-intensive. I would not want to go to all of the effort to manually do it and have someone else come in with s scanned/converted image (which will very likely look much better) and win. I can tell you, I'm not going to do that on an ongoing basis. If the majority agree that scanned/converted images ought not to be used, then I think a rule stating such should be adopted.

LB
Insert Name Here
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Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 6th Aug 2007 19:01 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 21:22
Quote: "These will be superb with media, if that's what you plan on."

I already have media! Unfortunately, I can't show you because posting a attatchment automatically makes the atatchment available for TGC to use without any warning to you, in any way that they see fit. (Drat.)
This challenge sounds interesting. Internal media is an interesting point. Surely as long as the program can simply be pasted into DB, it is acceptable? I seem to remember that that was how TDK summed up that particular rule.
Oh yeah, well done Roddman!
Edit: Here si my 30-min entry, Journey to RPS Kastle. As far as I can tell, it complies with all the rules, but is not what roddman had in mind.


I never tell the truth.
That ain't a paradox.
I always tell lies is though.

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