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Geek Culture / WHY DID YOU DESIGN THIS LIKE VBASIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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W0LF
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Posted: 5th May 2003 19:22 Edited at: 5th May 2003 19:32
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...

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
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W0LF
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Posted: 5th May 2003 19:31
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The source is not available. I'm pretty sure that it used to be but someone basicly took the code, made a few modifications to it and called it his own engine. Since then, Truevision has re-written the dll's in C++ instead of VB.

The examples that I have tried with it are exceptionally fast.

NOTE:
I'm not trying to start a "USE THIS INSTEAD OF DB" debate.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 5th May 2003 20:03
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Yeah, but all DB is is a wrapper. Just more invisible.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th May 2003 20:06
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no Visual Basic Engine is even remotely fast, for the EXACT same reason that DarkBasic Standard & Enhanced aren't.
even using the DirectX 9.0 APi specifically developed and interacting at a machine level rather than system level - DarkBasic Professional still runs rings around it.

Simple fact of the matter is that COM programming IS NOT FOR games development, as you need every ounze of speed you can squeeze out of the processor - Visual Basic is designed for Multitasking and as such makes it a very stupid choice for games development...
add to this the language isn't setup for the interaction you really require for anything worth while without taking twice as long to achieve it.
It is an Application Developer, simple as that - those who don't want to believe that don't really want to make games.

as far as i'm conserned there is nothing better for games development than C/C++ as the language is setup extremely well for multiple data maniupulations within a single command line and adding of Assembly for specific speed operations.
However failing that you need a language which will compile to the lowest common denominator, Machine Code - else whatever you're making will always been slow and unweldy.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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W0LF
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Posted: 5th May 2003 21:36
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Raven,
I can't disagree with your reasons, but the examples that I have tried in TV are impressively fast.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th May 2003 22:04
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Perhaps... but depends what impressively fast is
i mean with my GeForce4 or FX i can get around 300fps in VB.Net with Dx9 on an 1.4Ghz system, which yeah i guess is impressive for VB - but considering if i use C++ i can push 900fps doing the same.
impressive is more relative really... once you have full laden games thats where the languages shine too, because VB will slow and quite largely the more and more you use it for actual game development - whereas C++ won't so much.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Complex
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Posted: 5th May 2003 23:03
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Has anyone else noticed that the unholy "Wraithglade" hasn't made a post since....well the start of the topic?

LOL

Error 404 : Life not found
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ChopChop
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Posted: 5th May 2003 23:23
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"It is a poor musician who blames his instrument"


As for VB, It has bought me a house and car and paid my bills for a decade.

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Yarbles
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Posted: 6th May 2003 00:30
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Well, well. This topic has grown into some interesting discussion considering it was started by a hit-and-run artist.

I agree that C++ is the best language of choice for building the basics of a 3D game. But it can be very annoying when it comes to setting up of projects across different machines. In many cases I believe the setup of the evnironment can be more difficult than the actual coding. That's where the simplicity of a DB or even VB engine becomes attractive.

As a matter of fact, in my opinion, a good C++ engine should condense the core of the actual high-level game programming fucntionality into it's own simplified script, much like, well, Dark Basic!

The Yellow Jester does not play but gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance in the court of the Crimson King.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 6th May 2003 01:06
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Thing is though, TV3D alyways displays a watermark/Logo unless you register. This didn't do that before v5 so I was rather annoyed but hell, bound to happen at some point.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 6th May 2003 01:07
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Jeez, I always do that, miss the next page. Sorry guys, bit slow off the mark there <slap>

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 6th May 2003 15:20
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*slap
*bitchslaps
*shoryuken!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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APEXnow
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Posted: 6th May 2003 15:32
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<ouch>, Whats with the handbag man!!!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th May 2003 16:12
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:: sits down and eats some popcorn ::
well doesnt look like it matter there's nothing on the box tonite

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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APEXnow
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Posted: 6th May 2003 16:17
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Aww, ain't StarTrek on or anything LOL

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Van B
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Posted: 6th May 2003 16:27
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What!!!!

Time Gentlemen Please, 11:00pm
Spaced, 11:30pm

Unfortunate for those who don't get Paramount Comedy though .


Van-B
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APEXnow
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Posted: 6th May 2003 16:32
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Yeah, thats more likeit!! Love the standup shows to, always loved watching standup

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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BlackRat
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Posted: 8th May 2003 20:33
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Regarding the GBA (first page - aint read the rest), i ordered mine from play.com (never pre-ordered), and got it in 2 days

I have always found WHSmith to be a good place to go for consoles, etc.. seems a lot of people dont think of going there for them - everyone sticks to 'GAME', Dixons, etc.

BladeHOST.net - For all your web hosting needs!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th May 2003 01:15
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WHSmith used to be good in my area. But now they are always £5 more expensive for GBA. www.gbax.com is a good place for all things GBA in UK.

As to TGP, basically they are on about episode 18 at the min. And there was around 24-26 episodes in the first series. So only another week and a bit until the second series, and that extremely gorgeous - but crap acting - bird that replaces the frumpy Ozzie - yet actually British (and half south-african methinks) - bird behind the bar. Connie isn't it? Ahhhhhh....... damn Sky for stopping it after the second series.. back off London!! and all that.. erm...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Jonny_S
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Posted: 9th May 2003 01:23
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WOO VB RULES! I miss it I'm gonna get it back tommorow download this truevision see what its like dragon basic is cool I recommend it

The man with no sig
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Arrow
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Posted: 9th May 2003 02:04
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I can't beleive that this has been strung out this long, have you nothing better to do?

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Van B
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Posted: 9th May 2003 11:09
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No [b])
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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2003 01:36
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Or me. But then there is no-one in tonight, and my internet connection is working again.... hmmm... sounds kinda dodgey that sentence...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Jonny_S
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Posted: 10th May 2003 03:05
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No I have nothing better to do, theres no problem is there or maybe we should start a I love VB thread

The man with no sig
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APEXnow
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Posted: 10th May 2003 03:46
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Oh yeah, DBS'll really love that, chew up the Server with VB threads!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Jonny_S
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Posted: 10th May 2003 04:25
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you think hehehe Oh well I miss VB but I have dbpro to comfort me

The man with no sig
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Ian T
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Posted: 10th May 2003 19:15
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Of course we have nothing better to do! Do you mock us, sir?

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2003 21:06
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I have plenty of other forums to waste time on!!!

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th May 2003 23:11
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not me... i've only got 3 i visit right now, here - gfxartists & my own

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th May 2003 23:24
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DB.......VB...Hey yeah a simularity! They both end with the word BASIC too!!! I think that Dark Basic is a rip off.
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Kentaree
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Posted: 11th May 2003 01:41
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Oh No! They're probably gonna have problems with the copyright people now

Whatever I did I didn't do it!
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 11th May 2003 02:25
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Quote: "I think that Dark Basic is a rip off. "


this statement almost sounds like Microsoft is a ripoff from Squaresoft ..

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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8truths
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Posted: 15th May 2003 00:42
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Here's a funny link to send to "serious" programmers.

http://www.oceanwave.com/technical-resources/humor/c++-hoax.html

It's about how C++ was a hoax.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 07:23 Edited at: 15th May 2003 07:32
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OMG LMAFAO!!
that is the best damn'd read i've seen in donkey's years
christ... be funny if lee came out the same way in like 5years time.

"proud of DBP? ... you betcha, it was a major joke on the small following we'd got really - where we added the illusion that we were improving the language, but in actual fact our original language DarkBasic had everything in place for this and we we just flicking boolean switching and raking it in."

hehee
must say that would explain a whole hell of alot about the language, i just wonder about certain C++ compilers how they've changed from the original Joke Languages C++ to what is around now - certainly would be interesting to know

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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8truths
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Posted: 16th May 2003 09:08 Edited at: 16th May 2003 09:10
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Thank you for your appreciation of my post.

The truth is, I never got the big deal with C++. It is a stupid and overly complicated language that does everything so tightly that nothing truly new will ever spring from it.

Honestly, as godless as it is to learn, you might as well skip the foreplay and code straight machine code.

Look at the sorry bastards who have tried to code AI in C++. Like anything as unique and beautiful as intelligence will ever spring the rigid, Vulcan mind of C++!

C++ is the Third Reich of programming. There is a sense that it's rigidity will overwhelm everything else. But in the end dumb Americans and suicidal Russian put the Nazis in their place -- history's dustbin.

BASIC is a lot like the Allies were during WWII . . . Sloppy and weak, but they were good people committed to defeating evil even if the devil is better trained and equipped.

BASIC IS THE WESTERN WAY!

Lazy, dumb, and capable of beating better systems only with mass production and delusional TV-induced faith.

A lot of people started learning German in the 30s. They were wrong, and so are C++ programmers.

Hopefully, C++ will soon join it's kin.

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A_M
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Posted: 21st May 2003 14:07
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Quit dissing VB's speed. I've made 3D things in VB that run at speeds I could never dream of in DB Classic and on par with DBP (using only the the DX8.1 SDK, no other C++ compiled DLLs). Now of course I would never dream of considering VB as an alternative to C++ for serious game development but saying that anything made with VB automatically becomes slow just isn't true.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Drazo
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:36
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VB is nothing like DB. The only simerlarities between them is they are in BASIC programming language. [b])

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:58
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A_M the underlining nature of VB makes it bloody slow for 3D or anything that is not really system based...
why? because it carries so much overhead which means that its system access if far greater and quicker than C++

whilst i'll agree that i can match DB quite admirably and probably pass it using Dx8.1 (remember that DB is only 7.0a)

it has nothing on DBpro ... it just can't handle the speed, and that isn't just because i'm dissing it as you put it - it is a given fact of what the language was designed for, and games programming was NOT on the books when it was designed.

facts are facts, although my GeForceFX can push like 300fps in VB - compared to 780fps in DBPro and 900fps in C++ there is just no comparison speed wise... and thats on a blank instance
you have anything as complex as a game running and it'll just slow exponencially. Because it just IS NOT designed for it.

if you want the VB system access yet the power of C++ to create powerful games, then use C#
but still VB should only really be used for applications
end of story

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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