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FPSC Classic Product Chat / VISHNU 1.2 Fpsc media protection utility:

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filya
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 06:35
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I am unable to download any of the new files at the moment. May be an uploading error?

Anyways, I'll be off to bed, so shall download tomorrow evening.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Locrian
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 06:38 Edited at: 8th Feb 2007 07:06
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Well I know the player downloaded casue I checked that.....I'll check the games now.


*Edit*
Just tried and all downloaded and played, although it was running for a long time so I hit stop and hit download a second time. That would seem to be Filefronts problem, but they are obtainable.
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Candle_
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 08:20
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Getting better every day.......


MY FPSC FILES
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Locrian
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 16:26
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Is no one going to test this and comment? Downloads are the same as last night.

Hmm..wonder if a new thread should be made for each build, so people know theres a new ver to test.
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FredP
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 16:29
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I haven't had the chance to test the latest version...just got out of bed...
When I do I will e-mail my findings to you.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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filya
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Posted: 8th Feb 2007 17:19
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Quote: "Is no one going to test this and comment? "


lol, Patience my friend
I am at work, and can test it when I get home in the evening.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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s4real
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 03:04
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Just come on to see how things are going and it looks like its not,cant test with no feed back on the new version...come on people.

bests s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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FredP
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 04:24
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It works well.It plays,loads and saves fine.I don't do hackery so somebody else will have to fill you in on the security.
I was going to e-mail you but since nobody has posted about the latest version I thought I would just throw my two cents' worth in.


http://www.wembley1967.com
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Locrian
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 05:24
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Fred thanks for posting man. We need guys that don't code or aren't script kiddies, too man. It needs to be easily used by all. So hopefully over the next few days we'll get some people off they're butt's in here and get some feed back going.
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FredP
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 06:04
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You know only the usual five (or six) people are probably going to post.
I have been e-mailing s4 but I figured maybe if I posted in this thread for a change that maybe somebody would get the hint.
I am sure that somebody is going to post here sooner or later.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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rolfy
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 06:10
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Everything working fine for me too!sorry I haven't been around, pretty busy just now.
I wouldn't know where to begin trying to get at the media in this,not being into hacking anyway.
I do like the way its so easy to use,a load bar would be nice for the player tho',as there is no indication of how long the game is going to take loading.Apart from this I like the graphics and the ease of use.
Cant upload my demo just now due to filefront being down for maintenance,will put it up as soon as I can.
best rolfy.
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Locrian
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 06:18
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Yeah, the bars being sorted.....This was pushed out kinda fast, and the bars actually a security leak, so it needed attention.
This was more to test the features to prevent theft then the functionality.

Thanks for taking the time to look at it though Rolfy and giving your opinion.
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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 01:41 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 15:05
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Below is a new download for demo level,Vishnu player included.
I would be very interested in what others think of this software.


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s4real
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 23:50
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Thanks for the comments everyone Build 8 is being worked on with some improvements on the protection side and looking at some new features.

I would be very interested in what others think as well rolfy.

Best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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Locrian
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 08:45
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37 downloads, and really the only people commenting are the beta testers(which arent part of the downloads) and a few guys via email(some of which, apparently don't even post the forums)?

I got a build to post tomarrow but I'm not even sure I want to....Kinda a waste of time uploading games, if the only ones that are giving feedback are betas.....Let us know guys.
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 09:50 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 17:52
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You might want to have a second program sustained by autorun.exe that deletes a certain folder located at a rather easy to find location AFTER autorun.exe is endprocess'd. Of COURSE I could just as easily do a few 'other' tricks... but that is probally the first concern.

On another note... you MIGHT want to autoclose %temp% instead of %userpath%local settings...

And finally, although you minimize my task manager, you DON'T reinstate the 'above everything' thingy. (meaning I can have programs ABOVE yours instead of it masking them).


Ugg... Trying to be VAGUE is hard.

If you fear speaking for yourself, make use the words of others while discovering your own voice.
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filya
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 11:13
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Quote: "Ugg... Trying to be VAGUE is hard."


email him instead then??
easier for him and easier for you?

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 11:48
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sorry i cant download..ive gone over download limit so im downloading at 6kb/s...almost every download drops out..as does BF2142 so i cant download for some time


Mods Its 500x100
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Locrian
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:46 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 17:54
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Les I emailed you, so if you'd answer via email it would be appreciated. Were on to the "few 'other' tricks", and I explain it a little in the email but these are not really concerns with the app.

And filya his perhaps not being vauge enough makes no dif, as the things hes pointing out don't actually work(for reasons we'll be vague about )

I plan on uploading a new build today, probably around 4pm my time or so. It's all getting pretty tight, and barring using extended app's to gain entrance(of which 90% of the community knows little or nothing about) it's looking like a decent protection for the fpsc games. I mean it even has Les a little confused about it's actual operation so thats a good thing. Though it won't save anything from the hardened crack guys, the average user is going to have no clue....

Which is about the best you can do and far better then FPSC Pack ever was.
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 21:17
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Quote: "email him instead then??
easier for him and easier for you?"

When you have insomnia... these things don't come naturally to you.

Quote: "as the things hes pointing out don't actually work(for reasons we'll be vague about)"

Please Elaborate. ;p

Quote: "Les I emailed you"

Which email? The one I have, or the one I had... or one I used with you before (did i?)? I have so many email accounts I get lost. (Mainly because I use spam email accounts for public transactions).

Quote: "the average user is going to have no clue"

I beg to differ, the average user knows ALL about how your IP is stored on your hard drive and how the internet is magically teleported onto your computer.

If you fear speaking for yourself, make use the words of others while discovering your own voice.
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Locrian
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 02:37 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 06:26
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Final Public Beta:
http://hosted.filefront.com/Locrian
The last public beta is posted. I'd like to thank all the people sending in their ideas and methods of gaining access. You've helped create something far better then pack was security wise(thought not as customizable, but its looks or security here people).

The players look has been changed slightly to produce a more generic look, and to not look as much like an add for Vishnu.

Player has also lost the "Package Media" button.

Many changes to the protection, and again, we want to thank some of the guys emailing us methods. We opt not to list all the changes that this has gone thro since build 4(which is when it went public beta), but for those of you that contacted us, everything that was sent to us was looked at, and only the email received from Mérránvó, got into methods that no one but people like him and N.A.S.A engineers would use had things that were never addressed.

This appears to be the final version of 1.2. Though the ability for you guys to change the Player.exe background is being looked into, nothing can be promised. It's security over aesthetics at this point. As our versions update, yours will as well.
http://hosted.filefront.com/Locrian

This will be for sale Friday, Febuary 16th. Expect a new thread to be made, and an update to the site.


************************************************************************************

@Les,
I used the email you had listed here. Don't really like "elaborating" here. The more in the dark the more secure anything is.
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s4real
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 02:45
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Ok i like to take the time to thank everyone who tested this and made it a better product, this project will be worked on to improve the protection all the timeya media.


all the best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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Candle_
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 18:06
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Think your going to find out it is a grest program but most will not buy it as they want it for free.
It's a shame now because it is a great program too.
Hate to say it but the web is full of leaches..... suck you dry and don't even say thanks.



MY FPSC FILES
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rolfy
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 18:41
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As someone who likes to create their own media,I for one will be buying this product.Commercial games are viable with FPSC,I am beginning to think as BenjaminA,Loc',s4,Butter fingers and many others are beginning to show.
It may be that the majority of users will never feel a need for this,but creators of the model packs will probably love it,even if they cant ask everyone to use it.
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Locrian
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 19:37 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 19:39
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@Candle,
Your correct. I know most won't need this. We had to make it for us anyways, but I think some of the forum big dogs that rolfy mentions and others like Dark faction, etc, will certainly get use out of it. Wile looking at DF's game I was like "Dang, so much custom media, and he may as well gave it away..."

Last night S4 and I were talking and my prediction was 3 people will buy it the first week, then the numbers will drop after that to a couple a month(I think I'm being hopeful here too). But over the course of it's life time if we can just make enough off of it to pay for the license we had to purchase to actually use this for a commercial product(which selling our game as a pack would be) we'll be happy.

Our contention is that if you felt better using FPSPack about your media, then this is going to make you feel like having presidential security. When Pack came out I think most of us knew very little, and it was really a false sense of security by Vishnu's standard. Though nothing is going to be 100%(as absolutely no game is) this should sure tighten the noose on would-be-thieves.

One thing I think will keep interest is some of the guys with better games around here using it as they release demos and games. It should keep it enough in the light. I imagine in time Vishnu will end up being regarded in much the same manner as FPS Pack was in FPSC's V1 days.

But thanks for the kind words. S4 put a butt load of work in this with everyone mailing us, and his revising almost constantly.

@Rolfy
Why would you need to buy it rolfy...Your a beta tester. Without you guys giving different opinions, it wouldn't be the application that it is now, and will grow to be later....

That copies yours....The more games you package with it, is more advertising for S4's app. I'm an ole school dog man...
Butt(OK it no longer rhymes, but it's AUP tolerant), gas, or grass....No one rides for free...
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FredP
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 20:33 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 20:35
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Even as a maker of noncommercial games I feel I have an obligation to the creators of media I did not make to protect their hard work.
I for one have been looking forward to this and there is no doubt that I will be purchasing it.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 17:50 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 18:06
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QUESTION:

Were not going to release another public beta. Non the less work continues on Vishnu, and I have a question for those of you that have used it.

Would you want a more aggressive version that would force any open window to close on your customer/publics computer? This would mean people trying to run applications to gain access would not be able to run these in the background. This would also mean if someone has a non threatening app like say word pad or photoshop open that vishnu would force these programs to close with no saving dialogue. It would be up to your customer to not be stupid which we all know we have to treat the public in many cases like four year old kids.

This would mean they would be instructed to either act nicely and close all they're windows down nice or possibly have to find a way to get the task bar back. In test I've done, trying to circumvent any protection shuts everything down, sent my desktop into active recovery mode, and removed my task bar completely, with the only way to get it back was to navigate back to Vishnu, and open the app then close it like a good boy should. This could freak people out that are used to alt+tabbing out of a game for AIM or whatever. Also if they don't have a shortcut to like "My Computer" or some way to get to the files by anyway other then the start button(which we took away cause you wouldn't play nice) this could pose problems in getting your task bar back.

This method is pretty extreme and though the other version offers protections, we can find ways around it. Would everyone? Probably not. Is the last beta more secure then other protection utilities? Yes, but not fool proof. Were just wondering how far you want us to take this as far as whats going to be released. This would mean you'd really have to explain the usage of Vishnu well, and provide them with the info to set stuff right again in the event they accidentally try getting out like they would in a normal game.
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filya
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:03
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Like I mentioned in my email, Loc, this would be too extreme. As much as we, as developers would like our media protected, the user would hate to have such extreme measures against him.

I am pretty much sure, you and s4 must have tried this, but can't you figure out a way such that once vishnu is run, it runs in full screen mode and no way can the window be minimized unless it's Vishnu is closed?
I know poop about coding, so pardon me if I am being stupid...but rather than have background programs shutdown, finding a way to let your program run in uninterrupted "fullscreen mode + always on top" sounds better.

So even if a user uses shortcuts to open explorer, it would still be impossible for him to do anything if Vishnu remains in full screen and always on top.

-filya

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:17
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@filya,
Well thats the problem. You have to allow the game to be able to run on top to have all the functionality of the keyboard for the game. This means that Vishnu forcing everything to close thats open is the only true way to be sure. Vishnu has to allow the game to take over at some point or you'd never see the game.
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s4real
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:23 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 18:27
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@Filya : Vishnu runs already in full mode but as loc says at some point the game has to take over, if you use vishnu how it should be used there will be no problems at all its only when you are trying to steal any media the problems will happen.


At the end of the day play nice and you be fine.

best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:35
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Yeah I have to say that the above is the worst case scenario. If you play the game, and exit back to Vishnu, and use the exit button, you get to keep your nifty desktop and taskbar, and alls well in the world. We just have to allow for the "moron factor" and write well described methods of getting these functions back if someone inadvertently forgets.
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DOMRAY
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:36
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i think you have a killer program here.i wish i could give more feed back but i cant i am not a hacker or cracker lol.

i think you will sell more then 3 copies in the first week .there is a lot of fpsc users out there with custom media that would love to post a nice demo but don't do to the fact that they don't want people ripping there media.once people see other people useing it they will want it after seeing how there media is safe.

It's better to Burn Out than to Fade away.Highlander
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FredP
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:36
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I did notice that the Windows task manager does shut down when you run Vishnu.
Maybe when you run Vishnu you could have a screen telling users that any open programs will close.
When you play an FPSC game you really don't want any stuff you don't have to have running in the first place as FPSC tends to be a pc hog as it is.
It was a simple matter for me to hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete to open the Windows task manager after I closed Vishnu.
Please don't make my task bar disappear though.
There are quite a few people who couldn't figure out how to get their task bar back.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:52 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 19:06
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Fred, getting the bar back is as simple as navigating back to Vishnu, where ever you keep it, and starting it up again and closing it out properly. The task bar shuts down when you hit "alt". This is only going to be a problem to those that wouldn't use your game in the way it was intended. And a sub screen would pop up telling you to close any open windows and making you type "I agree" before it started. This would negate any liability for someone being a dumbdonkey. They have a chance to back out. But if you want to play a game packaged with Vishnu, don't try any funny stuff or we'll take our toys to a different sandbox. We're constantly working on this. Probably tonight for you beta's, we'll have a test version for you to try out. You can then deem better if you think your core audience is going to be to stupid to play nice. Personally S4 and my game is geared for adults, so our version will use these more extreme methods. These questions are more for what you'd like to see as a purchase. We can offer 2 versions.
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filya
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 19:00
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I guess you are right. But again, it also depends on what tasks get ended when Vishnu loads the game. If its just explorer windows, I guess it should be fine, but if people have background applications running, they might not want them to end.

As for the taskbar problem, all you have to do is when someone presses the 'Exit' button on Vishnu, you run the 'explorer.exe' command and you would get all your windows and taskbar and desktop back.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 19:05 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 19:17
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Virus scanners and all that would continue to run. Your important things would all continue.

When this was first discussed I was much like you. I started thinking about how dumb people can be, and how doing something as inane as alt+tab out to talk on AIM, as a lot do, would cause panic in some that innocently were only trying to play the game.

The problem is your either secure or your not. Either you close up all the loop holes with an iron fist, and accept that you'll have people that just don't get it, or you put your stuff out there with no protection and hope for the best. If your client/public play your game as intended there's absolutely no problems at all. It's only when actions similar to those a cracker may use are attempted when stuff can get a little hairy. If people don't want to read your read-me and know how to correct things, is that really your fault? I personally am tired of all the political correctness, and I figure if you can't read my documentation and play this like I intended for it to be played, then your on your own. We feel no need to make this a handicapable product.
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the_winch
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 20:19
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That level of arrogance wouldn't even work for the commercial giants. You don't even have the benefit of a large user base guaranteeing a crack to make the game playable.

The goal is to create a game people will want to play and possibly pay for.
Not to stick some media on a users hard drive that they can't get at.

You are in danger of becoming so obsessed with the second you make the first impossible.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Locrian
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 20:37 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 20:42
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Im not a commercial giant though. I can't sue someone in Russia thats stealing my work, because I live in America. I don't have divisons world wide where I can tell the head of my legal team in that country to put a halt on this guy. Not many of us have the resources to do that. And it's not actually that bad. It's fine if you play the game as intended. If not, your task bar crashes and they can get it back. Bottom line is it's safer. I realize its arrogant to force peoples apps to close. But oh well. Dont like it don't play my game. But at least I wont see Chainsaw Charley in some game a year down the road with an ability to do absolutely nothing.

Worse comes to worse they can restart the comp and get the task bar back, if they know no other way. But it's looking like this is the way were rolling with it. It's just better protection and thats what this is all about. Use the game right and your fine. Don't and you can restart your comp in the worst case.
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s4real
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 21:18 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 22:00
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I think everyone needs to understand that Vishnu will not get rid of ya task bar under normal use, the only reason you will lose the taskbar is only when you are trying to steal any media.

You have the option to agree and load the game or cancel before the program starts so you do have a choice before you start and if you forgot to save any work.


best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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Candle_
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 21:41
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Sent you a email s4 .


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s4real
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 22:00
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Thanks candle looking at it now best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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s4real
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 23:03
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Thanks to the help of candle looking like the app is going a diffrent way I will keep you posted.


Best s4

Im a wizz at texturing toilets
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Candle_
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 04:47
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Oh their thinking now "oh no what did Candle do?" lol


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filya
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 06:43
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yup...kinda

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Candle_
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 06:45
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It's all good. This is a really good program and everyone should buy it and support them in this.
They are really working hard on this for you guys so help them if you can.


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Locrian
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 00:32
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Yeah a lot of thanks has to go to Candle on this one. Vishnu went from being the equivalent of a Mafia hit man, ready to bury you if you screwed up, to an ex-wife which just ignores your attempts, which is probably less scary for most out there.(Or replace hitman, with 'exwifes lawyer' if your situation more closely resembled mine)

This version will go on say Friday as promised, and has had the ability of looking for an image in a predetermined folder to better customize the "player application" for the users game. This is in it's infancy at the time, and may or may not get any better as far as customization goes. The main thing is the security and we believe this is becoming a very tight application.

I never received a reply back from this person, so sadly enough I won't mention his name. I was really pleased getting a 7 out of 10 from this forum member, and if some of you old dogs on the forum knew who sent me this, you'd understand what an "atta-boy" this letter was. The bold type was my changes to his letter as not to single out anyone or product. But I think we all know.

Quote: "

You should be commended for your work to insure FPSC Media safety... unlike another members, who merely appended the sometimes unencrypted zipfile to an automated extractor, you are actually trying to make sure that your software IS nearly uncrackable and provides a fairly decent level of protection. (I personally rank another members protection as 0, since it does nothing to prevent any 'experienced' user from getting to the files, yours... around a 7, without any of the 'normal' ways of gaining access to the files, I am having to think up more 'creative' and 'unique' ways.)"


That wasn't the whole letter of course but bottom line is, if this member thinks we have a 7....your media is pretty protected considering other protection utillities he gave a 0.

Over the next couple days I'll be updating the site. The bots are in place for the raw data needed by the paypal code, and a page is up though not public. It's pretty much all over but the crying and a little updating to bring the site up from build 4 to build 9.3.

Thanks to everyone that contributed.
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filya
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Joined: 23rd Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 15th Feb 2007 04:52
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Good work Loc and S4real!! And thanks Candle!!
This should be good

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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