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Geek Culture / Best place to buy cheap macs.

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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 19:24
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Thats the computer type, not the rain coat kind.
I'm looking for a cheap mac, Ive looked on ebay, what is it with people on ebay, why do they bid for an item, more than if you bought it brand new, or if it is cheaper, its like 50 pounds cheaper, wow, Id sonner pay 50 quid more and have a brand new one with a warrenty. Im not seeing the best deal on ebay, I thought second hand macs would be at least a third off for brand new price.

Where are the places to get a good deal, I need a mac to have an intel chipset and have at least Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 19:31
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Quote: "Where are the places to get a good deal, I need a mac to have an intel chipset and have at least Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard."


Considering you want what sounds like a new Mac, you're not gonna find a cheap one. Keep in mind those Intel Macs with Leopard have only been around for a little over a year. I don't know many people who pay $2k+ for a Mac and sell it within the first year.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 19:34
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Mac Mini's are pretty cheap, I'm sure you could find one somewhere for a decent price.
What price-range are you going for anyways?


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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 20:42
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Mini macs brand new are like 400 pounds and 500 pounds for the slightly better one, not 2k.
On price, as cheap as possible, like everyone.

Jolly Good http://www.avantivitastudios.com/
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David R
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 20:47
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I wouldn't bother getting one cheap - here's my logic:

* Macs are generally more expensive any way, new or old

* The lower the price, the lower the spec is likely to be

* Therefore, the lower the price the lower the amount of time it will last before being obsolete

Hence you're spending a more than average amount of money for no reason - your investment will be technically obsolete very quickly. My suggestion is to go for the highest spec (new) Mac you possibly can. For two reasons:

- The cheaper Mac will seem like a deal, but you're paying premium for what is, in essence, a low spec

- The machine is pretty much fixed as-is. This is the biggest thing to consider - you can upgrade RAM, but little else. So get the spec which will last the longest, because once it's obsolete, the entire unit is out the window


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fallen one
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Posted: 4th Feb 2009 20:52 Edited at: 4th Feb 2009 21:15
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Well first point, I'm broke, so I looked into making an iphone web app to get me on track and get out of my financial situation.

I made what I thought was an iphone app, turns out its a web app.
the app I have is a sure money maker, I made the thing with a program that stated it it exported it to the iphone, well that was a load of rubbish, it exports it as web pages, so its a web app, web apps are just fancy web pages really, so false advertising on the product there. Anyway, there is no way to sell web apps, I looked around to see if there is anything that will wrap it so one can sell it in the Apple store, there is a product called Phonegap. Needs a mac though, so I couldn't convert it, but it also converts to android, so I thought great, Ill wrap it with that, I don't need to buy an new computer, and Ill sell it as an android product. Only problem is the Phonegap wiki gives no instructions at all, so I asked on the Phonegaps message group if they would tell me how to set up the program, I had a couple of answers, that didn't help, so I tried to figure it out myself, I got as far as I could, then asked again for help, I got a sarcastic response and told if the instruction wiki is bad, then why don't I add what Ive worked out to it, so I added a great load of info I found out and my illustrations to it, then I asked again to help me with the last details, no response, no help, so I contacted the program makers and asked them, no response at all. Unbelievable, so it seems its a little clique, if your not in it, get lost.

So now my option is buy a mac, and use phonegap to convert it to iphone, they have more wiki instructions for that platform, so it may work, if it doesn't then its buy a mac and buy the unity engine, and re make it in that, that will do it, and people who use 3d engines and games dev engines are generally helpful, unlike the niche programmers that have no interest in helping a none programmer at all.

So that's where I'm at, I have a major potential hit, but I'm in a bit of a position before I can get it out there.

Jolly Good http://www.avantivitastudios.com/
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dab
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 02:22
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Why not use try to run a virtual mac? If all you need it is to convert something, running a virtual mac (Not sure it it IS possible, but I don't see why not) and doing it in that.

It should do what you need without forking out for anything but a mac license and perhaps the virtual software (if Virtual PC 2007 doesn't work since it is free).

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 09:28
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I have high doubts you'll find any software that will magically convert a webapp to a real iPhone app. Good luck with that

I'm making an iPhone game too and I just had to shell out for a mac mini and use my PC monitor, keyboard, and mouse. It's more than powerful enough, and you download the iPhone SDK.

Apple has so many hoops to jump through to get your app running on an actual device, including forcing you to pay $99 a year.

And the Unity engine path would be way more expensive, wouldn't it? You would still need to pay the $99 and still have to have a proper mac, but then you'd have to pay hundreds for Unity and then even more to have it work on the iPhone.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 17:17
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You need a Mac to develop apps for the iPhone, that's all their SDK will support. The iPhone SDK is over 1GB to download, incase you were wondering.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 17:59
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It'll always bemuse me the size of some SDKs. 1Gb is a helluva lot. If it's all examples they should be separate downloads.

What good is knowledge without a degree of understanding?
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Roxas
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 18:05
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Just get Nokia N82 what is really powerful phone with amazing camera btw And do symbian software for it.

I use my N82 as portable video console. I just hook up the scart to TV and play Quake3 in example with bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse, Or old games like Nes, Snes, C64 etc..

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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 02:40
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Quote: "It'll always bemuse me the size of some SDKs. 1Gb is a helluva lot. If it's all examples they should be separate downloads."


It's not all examples. It includes XCode and the iPhone emulator as far as I know. XCode is a complete IDE, although not as good as VS.NET in my opinion.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 09:30
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Cheap macs? lol

why would you even want a mac when you can get a cheap PC thats 10 times better than a mac?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 10:59
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Quote: "It's not all examples. It includes XCode and the iPhone emulator as far as I know. XCode is a complete IDE, although not as good as VS.NET in my opinion."


I still don't understand the bloat. Compare to the size of DevKitPro or Code::Blocks with GLFW. It's not as complex or complete but nowhere near as huge. If there's a 50:1 size ratio, something's gone awful wrong.

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 12:07
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Quote: "Cheap macs? lol

why would you even want a mac when you can get a cheap PC thats 10 times better than a mac?"


I completely agree, but I figured I wouldn't flame this topic. Lets not.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 14:27
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sorry, i just really hate macs. The macbook pros are actually not bad as laptops, but they are way too overrated (since you can buy a better laptop thats a PC and way cheaper than a mac). The entire advert campaign of a mac is based on bashing windows and the people who own Macs just tend to be arrogant douchebags.

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David R
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 15:11 Edited at: 6th Feb 2009 15:47
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Quote: "I still don't understand the bloat. Compare to the size of DevKitPro or Code::Blocks with GLFW. It's not as complex or complete but nowhere near as huge. If there's a 50:1 size ratio, something's gone awful wrong."


I believe one of the big bloaters for the SDK is that Apple includes all possible languages by default - it doesn't let you choose. Greatly simplifies their deployment, at the cost of size

Quote: "
why would you even want a mac when you can get a cheap PC thats 10 times better than a mac?"


Try using one some time


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 17:12
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't languages just change some little tiny bits of text here and there? Although knowing Apple (just spent the last three hours watching shiny bars taking 20 minutes to cross the screen) they'd ship the same SDK over and over again changing only little bits.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 17:18
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It took a mere 11 posts for someone to start flaming the mac. I thought it would come sooner.

And as I said previously, I guess there could be some good deals on used Mac Mini's, though I'd just recommend buying a new one.


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David R
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 17:26
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Quote: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't languages just change some little tiny bits of text here and there?"


Apple support >18 languages, and the language data is in the package per application. The SDK contains a hell of a lot of tools, so as a result you get a hell of a lot of language data too


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 17:31
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Suppose all those help files might add up when they're multilingual.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 18:15
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Quote: " the people who own Macs just tend to be arrogant douchebags."


Call me names again and we're taking this outside. I love my powerbook. I've been using, and still use, Windows for nearly 15 years.

As for buying a better laptop running windows than a macbook($2000+), that assumes you don't mind wasting 3GB of ram running Vista.

You're not just paying for the hardware, which admittedly is overpriced ($500 to upgrade from 2gb to 4gb in the desktop) but a far more stable OS. Both systems have pros and cons, but the cons of OS/X weigh less than what I hate about Vista.


My only major gripe with Apple right now is the fact you can't get Java 1.6 for PPC.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 19:17
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But he's right, mac users go around touting what they beleive is a "superior" computing experience, when in reality it's not, it's closed, it feels like a kids toy(time machine?), it has a fraction of the applications windows has. OSX is only stable because of the lack of customizability(both hardware and software). It just doesn't offer a good experience like windows does. Yes I have used a mac a lot, I know what they're like.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 19:27
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Quote: "mac users go around touting what they beleive is a "superior" computing experience"

Thank you, maybe you should find a specific time when I've "gone around touting" that?

Quote: "when in reality it's not, it's closed, it feels like a kids toy(time machine?), it has a fraction of the applications windows has. OSX is only stable because of the lack of customizability(both hardware and software). It just doesn't offer a good experience like windows does. Yes I have used a mac a lot, I know what they're like."




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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 21:34
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Okay, let's stop the flaming...

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Satchmo
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:09
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Quote: ""


Dont even, you know the lot of it is true, and if you dont, Mr.Jobs has just pulled a shiny blindfold over your eyes.

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David R
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:20 Edited at: 7th Feb 2009 00:27
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Quote: "But he's right, mac users go around touting what they beleive is a "superior" computing experience, when in reality it's not, it's closed, it feels like a kids toy(time machine?), it has a fraction of the applications windows has. OSX is only stable because of the lack of customizability(both hardware and software). It just doesn't offer a good experience like windows does. Yes I have used a mac a lot, I know what they're like."


OK, let's do a breakdown

* "But he's right, mac users go around touting what they beleive is a "superior" computing experience, when in reality it's not, it's closed, it feels like a kids toy(time machine?)"

And Windows doesn't feel like a toy? Windows doesn't even trust you with full superuser permissions with UAC - it doesn't trust you to know or use a password. It has a 'Continue' button. Yeah, Windows the height of advanced technology - at least OS X has a bloody password prompt for permission elevation. Windows design toward the lowest common denominator doesn't even allow for that.

You cite Time Machine as an example of OS X being a toy. Fair enough - it's a weird name (although it's actually a very good explanation of what it does in 2 words). But what are we comparing to here, Windows? Where everything has to have the word 'Windows' in, otherwise the typical user will forget what OS they're running - Windows Mail, Windows Backup, Windows Calendar, Windows Media player. If you're going to pick fun at the names of applications, at least have a decent pedestal to stand on

* "it has a fraction of the applications windows has"

And? What the hell is your point? Windows can't run old UNIX apps. It doesn't make OS X superior that it can run old UNIX apps, in the same way that fewer programs doesn't make OS X inferior either. Besides, one thing I've noticed is that a majority of the applications that do exist are of far greater quality than their Windows counterparts. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

* "OSX is only stable because of the lack of customizability(both hardware and software)"

Out of interest, what exactly is it you're looking to customize? A stable OS at the cost of lack of driver flexibility is a pretty good trade off in my opinion, I wasn't looking to mod the firmware on my hard disk or anything idiotic like that

* "It just doesn't offer a good experience like windows does"

Welcome to "meaningless statements 101". What you really mean is "I don't understand it, it can't be good". Which is scary also, because you call it a toy - and then want an 'experience' - sorry, maybe I lost segments of my brain, but aren't we talking about computers here? I wasn't aware that a machine had to offer an 'experience'

</decimation_of_stupid_arguments>

EDIT:
Quote: "Dont even, you know the lot of it is true, and if you dont, Mr.Jobs has just pulled a shiny blindfold over your eyes."


That's a really stupid thing to say - because really, that's an expression of what an OS is in general. It's supposed to be a mediator between the user and the raw innards of how a computer works - and I don't think Vista can escape being categorised as 'shiny' either. Both OSes are blindfolds, because to some extent, things need to be dumbed down, regardless.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:27 Edited at: 7th Feb 2009 00:38
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I just want to point out that I don't like Macs because they have only one Mouse button.

Also, more seriously, when you compare Mac OSX to, say, Ubuntu, my choice is Ubuntu.

I don't like Macs for the same reason I don't like Windows (they're both proprietary). If I had the choice, I'd use neither.

I use Windows only because of video games, Macs don't offer up much in that department, so if I didn't want games, I'd use Ubuntu.

All that said, Satchmo doesn't speak for a lot of us tech savvy types Stop getting your knickers in a twist.

As for the topic at hand, run a virtual machine, rather than buying an actual mac. Otherwise, I'd say, get the cheapest piece of junk mac you can find, you'll only be using it for one thing anyway.

You might also be interested in this:

http://store.psystar.com/open-osx.html
(they sell mac clones that work just as well as real macs)

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David R
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:29 Edited at: 7th Feb 2009 00:30
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Quote: "I just want to point out that I don't like Macs because they have only one Mouse button."


That's wrong, period (They've had a two button capable sensor in them for quite a while now, you just need to tell it to use right click rather than Cmd+Click)


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Phaelax
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 02:32
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I plugged a MS mouse into my powerbook which it immediately detected right-click.


Quote: ""it has a fraction of the applications windows has""


I haven't found one that doesn't have a Mac alternative of equal or better quality.

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Jeku
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 03:45 Edited at: 7th Feb 2009 03:45
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Quote: "I still don't understand the bloat. "


There's a crapload of tools and APIs with the SDK. It listed them all during the installation but I don't have their names off-hand.

Quote: "I haven't found one that doesn't have a Mac alternative of equal or better quality."


If you know of a good free/cheap text editor with syntax hiliting and FTP support, I will be your best friend

Also, attention all Mac people, I have a few issues:

In XCode it annoys me to no end when I press Home or End it takes me to the top and bottom of the entire document. On PC it takes the cursor to the beginning and end of the line. Any way to fix this? David R I'm looking at you because you have helped me migrate a few of my other habits over thus far


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Phaelax
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Quote: "If you know of a good free/cheap text editor with syntax hiliting"


Ah, you are looking for the 1 thing I've been looking for, too! I really wish TextEdit was built for mac. As for the XCode issue, that's weird it would do that as other apps don't respond that way.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 12:31
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On the subject of home/end, hit command-left or command-right; I found it by accident because it's a motion I do on the Eee to home or end.

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Jeku
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Ahhhh I will try that out next time I start up my Mac. Thanks for the tip


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fallen one
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 21:40 Edited at: 7th Feb 2009 21:43
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Quote: "http://store.psystar.com/open-osx.html
(they sell mac clones that work just as well as real macs)"

$ 554.99 for that system and $ 599.00 for the mini mac.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini
I think you are better going for the mini mac, I think a PC running Mac OS X will not run as well as a regular mac. Though I'm sure some of you here will now better on this.

Does one need a real mac to upload to the Apple store? or can you upload to the apple store from a PC? Is there any kind of authorisation of a real mac to be in the developer program or upload the product to the store?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 21:51
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They'll be clocked pretty close. The generic one offers a little better ram and 320gb hdd space vs 80 and all for 50 bucks cheaper. It's got a special BIOS so that Mac OSX will work on it. I'd imagine Apple couldn't tell the difference when you try to submit your application, but I don't know.

That said, if that's not important to you, the mac mini looks like a good computer even for just 500 bucks. I'd be hard pressed to build a PC as inexpensive and at that small.

Anyway, Mac OS would run the same on either system, it's not like Apple uses magic motherboards >.<

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 23:32
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Quote: "I haven't found one that doesn't have a Mac alternative of equal or better quality."


lol - you must not have looked hard.

I'll admit, one of the only things bad about linux is the compatibility thing. Same thing with macs.

And the one-button mouses still count against macs because they are defualt.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 23:44
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Quote: "And the one-button mouses still count against macs because they are defualt."


I do just want to say I was having a go at Apple with that point

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David R
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 01:42
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Quote: "And the one-button mouses still count against macs because they are defualt."


They're not default. The mighty mouse has both buttons, and both work by default. It's just not set the secondary command by default.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 15:42
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Quote: "It's just not set the secondary command by default."


Then that counts against them.

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David R
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 15:45 Edited at: 8th Feb 2009 15:45
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Quote: "Then that counts against them."


Then it counts against Windows PC that they don't use Windows+Click by default then

(Since you're expecting the defaults to conform those of a completely different platform, which is pretty idiotic)


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 17:50
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And you're assuming that holding a key with one hand and clicking with another is better than just clicking with a different finger, which is also pretty idiotic.

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David R
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 18:05 Edited at: 8th Feb 2009 18:06
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Quote: "And you're assuming that holding a key with one hand and clicking with another is better than just clicking with a different finger, which is also pretty idiotic.
"


I didn't say that. What I said is, if you expect a Mac to use all the exact same keys and mouse controls as a PC (by default), you're pretty silly/narrow minded. The Mac has had its own distinct method of doing things before mice were even widespread, so why would they change years of tradition (i.e. lots of users already used to it on previous platforms) just to appease you / people too lazy to change an option?

It's also worth noting that since Macs tend to be more keyboard-centric than PCs (there are a lot more keyboard shortcuts) sometimes it does make more sense to use Cmd+Click - ergonomically, you keep your hand near the left of the keyboard most of the time any way.


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Alucard94
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 22:48 Edited at: 8th Feb 2009 22:50
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People get too worked up talking about technology. It's an OS, some people use it, let them use it.
Really, it's just the idiocy of some of these OS arguments that makes the entire thing hilarious, if I try some shoes and think that they're uncomfortable I don't go around yelling at other people who use those shoes how stupid those shoes are and how stupid the person who wears them is.


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Zuka
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 23:45 Edited at: 8th Feb 2009 23:49
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Mac users are stupid because they can only handle one button. Fools.

Oh yeah, and they're racist. > What's wrong with black?!
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 01:19
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Quote: "I didn't say that. What I said is, if you expect a Mac to use all the exact same keys and mouse controls as a PC (by default), you're pretty silly/narrow minded. The Mac has had its own distinct method of doing things before mice were even widespread, so why would they change years of tradition (i.e. lots of users already used to it on previous platforms) just to appease you / people too lazy to change an option?

It's also worth noting that since Macs tend to be more keyboard-centric than PCs (there are a lot more keyboard shortcuts) sometimes it does make more sense to use Cmd+Click - ergonomically, you keep your hand near the left of the keyboard most of the time any way."


I understand. I just find it foolish that they required use of another hand for something so trivial (and while that could be used for a shortcut).

I don't mind that they use macs. I sure don't know why, but I don't go after them specifically (unless they are a friend or a family member and I can't let them go over to the dark side) usually.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 08:26 Edited at: 9th Feb 2009 08:27
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Quote: "I understand. I just find it foolish that they required use of another hand for something so trivial (and while that could be used for a shortcut).

I don't mind that they use macs. I sure don't know why, but I don't go after them specifically (unless they are a friend or a family member and I can't let them go over to the dark side) usually. "


You make me want a mac now . Just to annoy you! We are not family or anything, though, so it might not do that...

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David R
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 08:31 Edited at: 9th Feb 2009 08:41
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Quote: "Mac users are stupid because they can only handle one button. Fools.

Oh yeah, and they're racist. > What's wrong with black?! "


Macs have two mouse buttons, and the current iMac has a bloody great black border around its screen. At least research the crap you say before saying it

(Who's stupid now?)

Quote: "I understand. I just find it foolish that they required use of another hand for something so trivial (and while that could be used for a shortcut).
"




Macs used mice before they even had two buttons. Hence the OS adopted ways for a secondary function without dependence on hardware. It become the common thing in subsequent OSes, and hence is the default. It's not whether it's trivial or not - it's whether the setting will work by default for the majority of users. And since the majority using a Mac will have used a previous one, this setting makes the most sense.

In the same way Windows XP SP2 (and onwards) warns about AV and firewall by default, because the majority of users are too stupid to check themselves. It's a foolish default in my opinion (You can check and make sure your machine is protected yourself...?) but it appeals to the common denominator of the platform.

EDIT:

Overall, this thread has taught me how little people actually know about the Mac or OS X in general. They think they know a lot, and use idiotic grounds to bash the platform, but most of the things they say are either flat out wrong (e.g. No right click) or just... stupid (e.g. The racism comment... What the heck?)

Either people are just scared of what they don't understand, or they took the Mac/PC adverts personally and decided to bash the Mac in response. If it's the latter, it's still pretty hilarious - it's an advert, and MS has far better FUD than Apple does


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 21:43
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Quote: "Macs used mice before they even had two buttons. Hence the OS adopted ways for a secondary function without dependence on hardware. It become the common thing in subsequent OSes, and hence is the default. It's not whether it's trivial or not - it's whether the setting will work by default for the majority of users. And since the majority using a Mac will have used a previous one, this setting makes the most sense."


I know, but they should keep up with the times and realize that improvements are worth sacrificing a bit of tradition for (It's like when japan industrialized). If the user can't afford to get a decent mouse then they shouldn't be able to afford a mac.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Feb 2009 21:58 Edited at: 9th Feb 2009 22:03
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Quote: "I know, but they should keep up with the times and realize that improvements are worth sacrificing a bit of tradition for (It's like when japan industrialized). If the user can't afford to get a decent mouse then they shouldn't be able to afford a mac."


Maybe you're not getting this yet, but the problem is, it's only an improvement because you're used to it on the platform you're using now. If you had been used to Cmd+Click on a Mac and then looked into buying a Windows PC, you'd probably say Windows is lacking for not using Windows+Click.

The lesson is, stop judging different platforms by the traditions and standards of the other - it doesn't make sense.

EDIT:
Quote: "If the user can't afford to get a decent mouse then they shouldn't be able to afford a mac.
"


What? Maybe you missed the part where I stressed the fact that Macs have two mouse buttons. Just because Right Click is not secondary function by default does not mean you can't change it

Oh, and macs didn't have two buttoned mice when they first came out because two buttoned mice didn't exist - a machine with a mouse was a rarity in itself. It's not a matter of the user's fault or not, you're just neglecting the fact Macs have a long history when compared to Windows PCs


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