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FPS Creator X10 / FPSC X10 Applying Normal / Specular Map To Segments

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 03:13
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All

Can anyone confirm if they have successfully made a custom room segment with normal / specular map with good results in game?

Does X10 use normal and specular maps on segments properly now unlike the rendering issues which plagued X9 in this respect?

I've just been trying to make one myself and having a few problems.

If someone has managed this please can you post a template .fps showing how the file should look for X10 and a screenshot to show the results you are getting.

Also any details of what you used for the normal map and export settings would be welcome.

Thanks
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pdidy
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 11:53 Edited at: 25th Dec 2007 12:54
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have not done it yet but you can get some good results
with crazybump. also i think nvidia have some free tools to
help you do this and sdk also.

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins.html

http://www.crazybump.com/

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/melody_home.html
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 12:54
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Yep!
You should try the thread:
"Model Pack 16 X10" or something like that.
It helped me alot...first normal maps didnt worked...but when i used the steps he said, it all worked.

It has great results! Of course better than X9.

And if you encounter some problems with his steps...
Than i'll make a small tutorial with pictures etc.

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keithml
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 16:08
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cheese cake,

I know I would love to have a small tutorial or a pointer or the repost to the step by step. I am not sure what thread you are talking about, but I couldn't find a step by step when I looked.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 00:55 Edited at: 27th Dec 2007 01:13
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@Pdidy

Thanks I'm using Photoshop with the Nvidia Normal map and dds plugin, although Crazybump looks interesting.

@keithml

The link that Cheese Cake is referring to is:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=120290&b=24

The information he is talking about provided by TGC's Lead 3D artist Simon reads:

Quote: "Make sure you have _D2 _D _S and _N and that they all have alpha channels.
_S now uses alpha for self-illumination (normally black)
_N requires alpha for relief mapping
_D requires blank alpha (white) or transparent map"


@Cheese Cake

Thanks for the info. Having read Simon's comments I do have a better understanding of what is required now but still havent been able to implement successfully.

I'm using Photoshop with the Nvidia Normal map filter and dds plugin. Please can you have a look at the steps I've taken and tell me where I'm going wrong and what I need to do.

If you could do this with some pics as a step by step which keithml has also asked for that would be great as I'm not sure I fully understand this process.

Thanks, Nomad
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 00:57
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Diffuse - Step1

- First I took a free random texture in jpeg format and loaded it in Photoshop
- Then added a new alpha channel (as stated that all maps require one)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 00:57
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Diffuse - Step2

- Edited alpha channel properties to make colour white and totally transparent (again as stated)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 00:58
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Diffuse - Step3

- Ensured RGB channels are selected (not sure if alpha needs to be highlighted whilst saving)
- Saved texture using DDS format and ensuring that 'save alpha channels' is ticked

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 00:58
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Diffuse - Step4

- Saved using DXT5 / ARGB 8 bpp / interpolated alpha

In version of Nvidia plugin I'm using gives 2 different DXT5 options, I wasn't sure which one is correct

DXT5 / ARGB 8 bpp / interpolated alpha
DXT5_NM / XY 8 bpp / using DXT5

- For _D2 simply copied _D and renamed with D2 extension

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 01:04
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Specular - Step1

- Took greyscale copy of base texture for specular
- Added a new alpha channel (as required for all D2,D,N,S)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 01:10
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Specular - Step2

- Edited alpha channel properties to make colour black (as stated in notes)
- Made black alpha channel 50% opaque as wasn't sure what is best

- saved Specular with same settings as diffuse e.g. dds with dxt5 and changed extension to _S

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 01:10
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Normal - Step1

- Took base texture and added new alpha channel
- Made this alpha channel black 50% same as specular as wasn't sure correct settings to use
- Used Nvidia Normal Map Filter to generate normal map (see screenshot for settings)
- Ensured RGB channels highlighted when saving Saving (wasn't sure if needede to highlight alpha channel also)

- saved normal with same settings as diffuse e.g. dds with dxt5 and changed extension to _N

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 01:11 Edited at: 27th Dec 2007 01:48
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.FPS - Final Step

- Setup a .fps for segment specifying _D2, _D, _S and _N with nothing selected in effect field as this is no longer required. See screenshot

- Run test game. Segments were either partially invisible or screwed up in some way

Any help with how to setup alpha channels for diffuse / specular and normal maps to work properly would be appreciated.

@Cheese Cake. If you could provide a guide that would be awesome. I don't know how much more fault testing I can take with this.

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Uthink
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 05:37
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Anyone know how to nail this process down? I was excited to see the steps that Nomad laid out, but it looks like he still had problems.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 06:23
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I have tried it again....but it seems that sometimes it works
and sometimes it dont.

There should be a tutorial...or a guide that explains how to apply shaders to a segment/entity.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 10:30
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Thanks anyway Cheese Cake

I've tested this a bunch of times and as you suggest am not getting any consistent results at the moment.

There must be a way of doing this properly and I really hope someone in the know will shed some light on it.

I'm going to continue working on this for a while but theres a few things which need clarification surrounding the way textures need to be saved and their associated alpha channels to be compliant with FPSC X10. I've seen that other engines have a recommended DXT version to use and such.

Full scene bump mapping has been mentioned by Lee in other threads as being perfectly feasible with this new engine. The attached screenshot would appear to demonstrate that also.

Hope to hear from someone on this if I don't get somewhere with it and post first.

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Uthink
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 15:56
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Okay, this is bordering on silly. The marketing of the new engine is based on taking advantage of better graphics. I think someone at TGC has got to take a day and document this. We don't want X9 looking games running in X10! They've done it, they just need to tell us. We're all doing this part time, and would rather spend more time creating rather than guessing.


(First post with iPhone!)

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 19:36 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 23:40
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Well i have tried to make normal maps work!
(only for entities that is...havent tried with segments yet)

And i think i have got it!

This is the final FPE version.


My first was this one..
i copied one of the scifi FPE's and did made some edits....



The final version worked and the other didnt...why?!?
Well i think it is this!
(first! i have to thank s4real for telling this)

Well...the DBO's are quite responsible for this...
You would have to delete them if the first time didnt worked.
also move your X-file and FPE-file into a different map...
Else it would still use the same old settings the DBO's used....

Also....in the Final version as you can see....i also typed the directory for the texture...
(i didnt do this in the older version)
So i also think that would help FPSC X10 for producing shaders etc...

Also as for the textures itself!
Here is a screenie for example!



I use the _D2 as main texture....and _D...i dont know
But FPSC was acting weird when the entity didnt had a _D.
The D2 and the _D are both exactly the same...only with a different name.

Hope this will help...and hope it works!

---EDIT---
Oh yeah almost forgot to say...the alpha beneath the (for example) _D2 belongs to _D2...and the alpha beneath the _N belongs to _N...and so one.

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Uthink
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:20
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Any in-game screenies with it applied?
I'm still sluggin away at getting a segment to work.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 23:38 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 23:38
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Quote: "Any in-game screenies with it applied?"

Of course!

Here is one!


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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 04:03
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Well done Cheese Cake

After seeing your results I setup an entity floor with your settings using one of the default FPSC X10 wall textures and additional normal / specular maps.

I'm impressed with the results. See attached

Now if this can be cracked for segments also we're there but at least we can make static entity segments which look the part now. I'm going to join Uthink and do some further testing but this is great.

If you've got time could you post your method for creating / saving the normal / specular maps with alpha channel using photoshop and nvidia plugin. I can do this and getting much better results now but would like to ensure I'm doing this properly.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 04:38 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 04:39
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Okey i create the texture.
Save it as a _D2 & _D.
(ALPHA totally white)

Than i use the NVIDIA plugin-filter. (for photoshop
for creating Normal maps.
Save it as a _N
But this time the ALPHA is created this way(SEE IMAGE BELOW)
Save it with ALPHA channels.

For Specular maps i do this:
Open the _D or _D2
Make it a greyscale and edit it some.
(mostly make it a bit darker)
Also this time for the ALPHA channel.
i use the same method as the Normal map.(SEE IMAGE BELOW)



Hope this helped!

And i could be wrong about the all the ALPHA channels and stuff...
But in the thread "model pack X10 screenshots"
Simon explained a bit how he did it...
So maybe he meant doing it else...but i thought he meant do it like this.

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Uthink
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 04:50
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I'm still slugging away. I've no idea why everything is just acting like the X9 version. Here you can see my wall next to a stock wall with the ambiance turned way down. You can see the specular mapping in the floor is working fine. But my wall looks like the ambiance is turned all of the way up!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Uthink
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 04:54
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My textures if anyone is so inclined to look at them.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 05:00
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Thanks Cheese Cake

You've been a big help with this.

Now we can finally start concentrating on making some cool looking sufaces and scenery rather than trying to follow the right process and get it to actually work.

Happy New Year

@Uthink

I've got to crash now man, 3 hours till wake up call for work (damn!). I've downloaded so will take a look tomorrow night in case I can help.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 21:54 Edited at: 6th Jan 2008 22:02
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@ Cheese Cake

Where did your bumpbump.fx file come from?

I do not see it in my X10 folders.

I know X9 has a bump.fx in the bump folder, but I thought this was about X10.

I want bumped effects like in the screen shots above, which I can tell are X10 because of the water.

Is that bumpbump.fx file created with that other software, or was it a beta only thing?

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:33
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Conjured Entertainment.
I looked myself for the Bump effect...
But didnt find anything...

Also i have to say...that these were copied (the FPE's).

I didnt created any FX file...i used custom meshes and textures.
The little tutorials should do the trick concerning shaders ingame.

If that doesnt work than can you post your FPE and say
what files you have for that certain entity...
(What the textures names are: _D2, _D, _N, _S, DBO, X etc)

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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:40 Edited at: 6th Jan 2008 22:44
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Dude, I just looked at the 'Alien' segment that came with X10.
Its FPS file calls the bump/bump.fx, but again there is no such file.

MY ALIEN WALL IS FLAT!!!

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:44 Edited at: 6th Jan 2008 22:47
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Quote: "MY ALIEN WALL IS FLAT!!!"

Hmmm starting to feel like you are getting mad...

Okey the wall is always flat!
Maybe it will look somewhat more "bumpy" but still its flat...

Yeah FPSC calls for the BUMP....but i didnt found anything.
Quote: "but again there is no such file."

I just said that...
Quote: "I looked myself for the Bump effect...
But didnt find anything..."



---EDIT---
Looked at your picture...is that the stock segment?
Or did you made your own with a link to that texture?

If its the stock one than i think something is wrong with your version of X10...
or something is wrong with your computer...
If thats a custom made segment (not the texture) than i cant help you...
Since i didnt tested the segments yet...
i only tested entities...
I have a little tutorial above...
Check those maybe they can help you.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:46
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Quote: "Okey the wall is always flat!
Maybe it will look somewhat more "bumpy" but still its flat..."

Well my screen shot looks nothing like the one TGC showed of the wall.

Quote: "Hmmm starting to feel like you are getting mad..."

No, I am just shocked.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:50
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Quote: "No, I am just shocked."

Than my apologies, its hard to see someone's emotions over the internet.
Anyway edited the post before this one.

Also look at your Preference window...
It has 3 settings...

No lightmapping, Best for Performance, Best for Quality.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 22:53
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@ Conjured Entertainment

There is no bump.fx file in the effects folder but its imperative that you specify it in the effect field of your .fpe or .fps

It's like the X9 way of doing it except the X10 method actually works and produces fantastic results.

Even with limited experience I've already managed to produce some surfaces with Oblivion like quality and you can actually see light sources impacting upon them dynamically when your walking around.
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 23:01 Edited at: 6th Jan 2008 23:30
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Quote: "There is no bump.fx file in the effects folder but its imperative that you specify it in the effect field of your .fpe or .fps"


Thanks, I got it now.

I had to "shed some light on the subject".

lol Brainfart

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 23:05
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Ah good!
Great to hear that its working...

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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 23:12 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 00:33
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That CrazyBump is too cool.
I need to learn a lot more about this subject, but I am wanting to see a tool for this in DBPro.
It would be nice to have the functionality of CrazyBump with export compatible with FPSC.

I wonder what the RGB(rrr,ggg,bbb) values are for that blue _N file that it makes.
How do you make those from scratch?

I did a little research and here is what I found.
This is a quote from ionization.net...



That explains the basics of what is going on in those blue_N images.

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 01:03
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@ conjured

Did you get a segment working or are those floor and wall entities?




Has anyone gotten a segment working with normal maps yet?

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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:31 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 02:33
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Quote: "@ conjured

Did you get a segment working or are those floor and wall entities?"


Those are the ones that came with X10. I just wanted to get the lighting right.
Now, I can study those files to see how the process can be emulated.


Quote: "Has anyone gotten a segment working with normal maps yet?"

Not yet.

However, I am going to work on this a little over the next couple of weeks.
This whole Normal Mapping thing is really interesting.

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:51
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Quote: "This whole Normal Mapping thing is really interesting."


LOL! That's one way to put it. I find it absurd and annoying. I'm not sure why we get so little help from TGC when it comes to custom media.

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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:56 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 02:57
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I'm going to start by replacing the individual files and see what is what.
I am going to start with a copy of an alien panel with the switched _N file.

I am more interested in the process of creating the normal map than I am in using it.

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 03:03
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I tried that with no luck. Se my Jan 3rd post. I edited one of the stock segments.

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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 03:17 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 03:25
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Quote: "I tried that with no luck. Se my Jan 3rd post. I edited one of the stock segments."


I just tried it with luck!

Check out the attached image...

You can see my Brick type Normal map bump using the alien wall section next to the original.
Note the same alien texture just a different _N file.
Next I will change the texture....coming soon.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 03:28
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@Uthink

I hadn't realised this as I've been using custom segments since installing FPSC X10 but the stock X10 'ground' and 'pebbles' segment floors use specular and normal maps as can be seen from the attached screenshot.

I've now learned that it's very important how lighting is used with surfaces using additional texture maps and that when creating them (specular in particular) you really need to think about the type of material the surface is and how reflective / shiny / dull it should be. Same goes for normal map but for different reasons.

You can see how these factors have been considered for the ground and pebble surfaces shown.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 03:30 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 03:36
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Also I didn't realise the alien suface is actually a default X10 segment which is in the segments / common / rooms folder.

Therefore I would recommend using the .fps for this as a template for a custom one.

Here is a screenshot showing that unlike with X9, bump mapped segments in X10 render the bump / specular map on all segment surfaces (floor, wall and ceiling) very nicely.

It's all about texture creation now which will take time to perfect but at least we know we're not wasting our time.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 03:36
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Quote: "I've now learned that it's very important how lighting is used with surfaces using additional texture maps and that when creating them (specular in particular) you really need to think about the type of material the surface is and how reflective / shiny / dull it should be. Same goes for normal map but for different reasons."

Yeah, I am figuring that out too. The lighting is everything.


Quote: "Also I didn't realise the alien suface is actually a default X10 segment which is in the segments / common / rooms folder.

Therefore I would recommend using the .fps for this as a template for a custom one."

Yeah, that's what I just did, and it seems easy so far.
Here is the whole room with brick_N... (textures coming soon)

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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:04 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 04:04
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Ok,
My textures suck (as usual), but here are the bricks.
I had to turn the bloom all the way down and turned the ambience down too. (my grays are too light I guess)

This is fun and makes me want to do more custom stuff.
Great improvement TGC, thanks!

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:05
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I swapped in my normal map, and it worked!

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:23
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Quote: "Yeah, I am figuring that out too. The lighting is everything."


Yeah. As developers we now need to start thinking a lot more about textures and applying them appropriately in our game environments.

Quote: "I had to turn the bloom all the way down and turned the ambience down too. (my grays are too light I guess)"


Indeed. The alpha channels definately play their part in how your texture is going to look. Theres a bunch of factors to consider now which presents a ridiculous scope for creating some, dare I say it commercial quality scenes.

I found this link quite useful if your using the Nvidia Photoshop plugin. Crazybump has a 3D texture viewer but I do like the amount of control you get with this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1il-oIy5E0w

Quote: "This is fun and makes me want to do more custom stuff.
Great improvement TGC, thanks!"


I'll second that. This is truly a massive improvement and is the one feature I've wanted to see in the engine since I first used X9.

Quote: "I swapped in my normal map, and it worked!"


Nice work Uthink and everyone else. It's great to see what people are doing. Please continue posting your attempts. I'm going to start on a bunch of custom segments too.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:23 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 04:36
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Quote: "I swapped in my normal map, and it worked!"

Now swap the _D and _S (darker D) and you got it.
Don't forget wall2_02 and _03 also.
Don't forget to back up the stock media or work a copied folder.


Quote: "
I found this link quite useful if your using the Nvidia Photoshop plugin. Crazybump has a 3D texture viewer but I do like the amount of control you get with this.
"

Sorry, I do not use PhotoShop. I use Paint.Net, so I just used it and crazyBump BETA. (both free, at the moment)

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:33
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My specular map doesn't seem to work. Here's a screenshot with the ambience down low, but it looks bright as day!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:37 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 04:52
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That's what I meant about mine being too bright.
I am going to darken the _S more until something desired happens, even if I go all the way black.

Okay see attached to see that a solid black _S on one of the three textures for the wall simply takes the shine (and depth) away.

I am doing something wrong. So, I don't think it is the _S that is making it so bright.
Now, I'm going to try some other stuff.

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