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FPS Creator X10 / FPSC X10 Applying Normal / Specular Map To Segments

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:43
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Quote: "Sorry, I do not use PhotoShop. I use Paint.Net, so I just used it and crazyBump BETA. (both free, at the moment)"


Both perfectly fine. Don't know about you but I found I couldn't export directly to .dds with crazybump in Vista despite it being listed in the supported files drop down. Well not with 6.2 beta anyways. I guess thats why its a beta suppose.

Quote: "My specular map doesn't seem to work. Here's a screenshot with the ambience down low, but it looks bright as day!"


John Carmack said that with texture creation you shouldn't create the texture as you would see it in your minds eye but as if subjected to a bright light. Then its the process of dimming the texture down appropriately using only ambient lighting so that it looks correct when a light source is introduced.

Remeber to only brighten areas in the specular map which are supposed to be very bright like the lights in your texture. The rest should be much darker and black alpha channel with appropriate opacity will help control the effect.

This is very interesting.
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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:50
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Then do I have it backwards? Looking at the stock stuff, the lights are black and the rest of the wall are grey.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 04:59 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:05
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I GOT IT!

Dude, delete the _S file that you made and use the stock one. (its just a blank transparency anyway.)
Then you will have your lights working proper. So, remember to adjust the light(s).

See pic for the use of 3 full range static yellow lights, and one white dynamic ...

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:00
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Okay, getting closer. The left side is specular map with black alpha channel. The right side is a white alpha channel.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:07 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:12
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Every stock_S looks the same to me when I open them in Paint.NET; they are all a transparent background.
So, if they are transparent, then what is the difference? It works fine for me when I use the stock _S file.

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:18 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:21
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They're not transparent. The alien one is greyscale and the tops of the bumps are lighter.

EDIT: Here's the S map. It's not transparent.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:20 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:38
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Somethings really funky. I've replaced wall2_01 wall2_02 and wall2_03. Why do I have missing textures?

EDIT: Nevermind. I've just got too many versions of everything!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:35 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:45
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Quote: "They're not transparent. The alien one is greyscale and the tops of the bumps are lighter.

EDIT: Here's the S map. It's not transparent."

LOL... Well, its not enough change to my texture that it worked for me. (I'll fool with the _S thingy later for a permanent fix)
Check out my rainbow roon of my bricks that shows how lights can affect the textures.

Quote: "Somethings really funky. I've replaced wall2_01 wall2_02 and wall2_03. Why do I have missing textures?"

wall2_01_D
wall2_02_D
wall2_03_D
Can all be the same if you don't need the random effect, so then the ...
wall2_01_S
wall2_02_S
wall2_03_S
...and the...
wall2_01_N
wall2_02_N
wall2_03_N
...can be all the same as each other too.
So make two copies of the _D _N and _S file of your texture, so you have all three files for all three walls.
Then, they should all be the same.

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:43 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 05:44
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The trick with a specular map is to have a place in your texture that remains illuminated when you dim the light. Notice how the texture-lights in the elite room stay bright when you dim the lights. But my texture on the ceiling stays completely bright when only the lights should stay bright.

That's what I'm trying to achieve.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:50
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Quote: "The trick with a specular map is to ... That's what I'm trying to achieve."

Oh, I wasn't trying tricks yet. (I'll try tricks later, if they are not discovered accidently during testing)
I just wanted custom textures for walls that used the new effects in X10.
I think I am on my way once I figure out that _S thingy, but until then I will use the stock alien one. (its a nice crackle for any wall I guess)

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 05:55 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 06:03
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Actually I just got it!!!!!!!
It was the alpha channel in my specular map. It was all black. I needed white where the lights go. Finally!!!

Notice how the lights on my wall texture stay lit just like the light on the wall in the Elite texture?

Now I can go to bed!

Thanks for the help Conjured and Nomad!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 06:14 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 06:21
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Glad you got it working right. (they look good too by the way!)
What did you use to see the alpha chanels, photoshop?

I am thinking that Paint.NET is not showing the _S files because it is a different DDS type than the _D or _N dds files which show up fine in Paint.NET
I can see the _S files fine when I view them in a photo viewer, but it doesn't have editing capabilities that can export it right.

Anyway... maybe tomorrow after you get your sleep, then you could make me a blank _S or I guess just a solid dark gray one or something?

I want a base _S with no highlights just for testing until I can get it figured out on this end with Paint.NET.
I hate the thought of having to buy photo shop then getting the plugins ins and all that crap ,but if that is what it takes then...

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Uthink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 06:23 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 06:24
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I've attached a file. The RGB channels are dark grey, and the alpha channel light grey, so it should let some light through to your texture. I think you can edit alpha channels with gimp? I'm using Photoshop CS.

It could be that D and N don't use the alpha channels and that's why you didn't have problems with them?

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 06:29 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 20:03
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Thanks dude.
Yours I can see in Paint.NET, just not the stock ones from TGC. how strange
I'll try it to see how it works on my texture and maybe I can just edit it to fit, since I got it in Paint.Net now.

I tried opening the stock one in a DBP snippet with not much luck.
The image couldn't be seen, but I could save a copy of it.
I want to figure-out/know the correct way to open it in DBPro before I try any tricks.
Even with an alpha channel I should be able to see the thing in Paint.NET or DBPro. (it is a DDS file after all)
I don't understand why it wouldn't show the image and not the other layer.

Thanks again & good night.


>>>>>> Later ...

For those of you who are using Paint.NET, I found this plugin that creates normal maps from a grey-scale texture you supply.
Just copy/paste the DLL to the Paint.NET effects folder.

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Inspire
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Posted: 8th Jan 2008 22:30
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Looks good, Uthink.

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 00:00
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seagments here

http://wrightsegmentpack.bravehost.com/index.html

Dsw
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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 02:33
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@ Daniel
Shouldn't you redo your segments for X10 if you're posting them in the X10 forum?

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Tutelage Systems
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 04:36
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Quote: "seagments here
http://wrightsegmentpack.bravehost.com/index.html
"


What does this have to do with helping people making segments that have normal / specular maps, nothing ??? I think you need to find another way to advertise.

Anyway some very helpful material has been posted in this thread, I have learned a lot, thanks for all the knowledge.
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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 04:44
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Having trouble showing real depth with textures. Could be that I don't know what I'm doing with the Nvidia settings. Any suggestions on getting more depth?

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 11:52
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FPSC X10 doesnt really use depths like Oblivion..
Nonetheless the effects look very good!

You would have to change the settings a bit in the Nvidia-Plugin.
I assume that you use the Photoshop Nvidia-Plugin?

I only know that one (dont know if there are more) and its very easy to use.
Just edit the values = X, Z...and on the right you can change the settings
to render from the Red channel or Green channel...
Also from the Basic RGB...or it was called something else.

Left on the window you can also preview the results...
Though its not the best review it would give you examples of how it would look like.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 13:54
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Quote: "Having trouble showing real depth with textures. Could be that I don't know what I'm doing with the Nvidia settings. Any suggestions on getting more depth?"


As CheeseCake has mentioned, you should be able to get a better sense of depth within a texture by playing around with the normal map settings.

Have you tried inverting the Y axis or increasing the scale? I've found these can offer significant amount of normalisation change which could help you. Also check out the normalisation youtube video link I uploaded earlier in the thread.

If I'm not mistaken Oblivion quality texture mapping i.e. parallax mapping for depth of texture might actually be achievable in X10 as relief mapping is supported which is effectively the same as parallax mapping.

Also X10 supports other advanced shaders such as sphere mapping which gives a full 360 degree true reflection of the environment as shown in the tech demo video which are waiting to be abused.
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Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 15:20 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 15:21
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just for anyone wondering, i believe the alpha channel of the normal map acts as a heightmap for the relief mapping side of the segment shader, so you get depth + normals. (that also applies to weapons)

(havent tried anything with segments yet, but i may write something up about the X10 naming conventions and how to get used to the shaders etc.)

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bond1
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 15:36 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 15:42
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Quote: "just for anyone wondering, i believe the alpha channel of the normal map acts as a heightmap for the relief mapping side of the segment shader, so you get depth + normals. (that also applies to weapons)"


I asked Lee about this a while ago, he said the alpha channel in the normal map used for relief mapping is only used for weapons right now, and that it was too expensive of an effect to use across the board.

EDIT: The elite room does use an alpha channel though, so I guess it does apply to segments too!

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Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 16:54
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ya, i noticed in one of the newsletters the relief effect on the elite segment, so it was just a shot in the dark, i'll have to create some of my own to confirm it though

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 16:58 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 17:01
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@ Jon & Bond

What programs do you guys use for textures?

I know that you use 3DS Max for modeling, but do you use Photoshop with the NVIDIA plugin for textures like everyone else?
Or, have you found another tool that is better or less expensive?

I'm only asking because I want to know what you two professionals use.
This normal mapping thing has excited me to the point of considering purchasing 3DS Max, but I don't want Photoshop unless it is the best option.

I like using Paint.NET but the _S images appear blank when I load them. (they blank when I load image in DBP too.
The _D and the _N files appear fine but the _S files load as a solid transparency.
I don't understand why only one is blank instead of all three.
That happens with any _S image in my FPSC X10 folders.

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bond1
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 17:20 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 17:23
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Conjured,

I use Photoshop CS2, I still think Photoshop is a must-have for texturing. And I still use the NVIDIA filter for overlaying added normal map detail . My base normal map is generated from a high poly model made in max and/or mudbox.

Crazybump is another option (and the beta is free), but honestly I haven't used it that much. But if you don't want to get Photoshop than I think hands-down it would be your best option for making normal maps from photos.

I'm guessing Paint.NET has trouble reading the alpha channel in the _S files.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 17:21
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Also i was wondering...
Did anyone tested the "Custom Effect" test level?

Cause it uses a great shader!
And my guess is that it would be possible to have real depths in the textures!
For those who are wondering and own X10..you should really try i out...
But i am not an expert in shading etc...so who am i?

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 17:24 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 17:39
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Thanks Bond,

I can see from Jon's website what he uses...



Quote: "I'm guessing Paint.NET has trouble reading the alpha channel in the _S files."

Yeah, I wish I knew how to get it to show in DBP.
I tried crazybump. It rocks, but is only good for _N map not _S.
Its those alpha channels holding me up, not the normal map.
I want to play with this in DBP, but unless I can figure out those alphachannels then its no use to try.
Thanks again for the quick reply.


@ Cheese Cake
Thanks man, I would never have found that if it weren't for you.
Now I have to try them all, so I won't miss anything.

wibblyrelief.fx is a really cool effect. Thank for pointing it out.

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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 17:32
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Might be worth buying an older version of Photoshop on eBay?

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 17:40 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 17:45
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SSSSHHHH Uthink, I don't want eveybody bidding against me!


( I have already thought of that and have bids in , good idea though, thanks )

I'm was hoping the CS2 will be good enough, but now I know it is since Bond uses it. (now I feel comfortable bidding more, thanks Bond)

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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 19:07
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I'm using the original CS and have been very happy with it. Always wanted to upgrade, but man is this stuff getting pricey.

Have you checked out Gimp?

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 19:26 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 19:48
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Gimp's workflow doesn't work for me. I do not like its interface's layout.
Everytime I tried to use it, it bugged out on me.
So, I got Fred up with it and banned it.
I mean, I got fed up with it and canned it.

I'll look for the original CS version too. So it loads the alpha channels on the _S images ok you say?
I guess I'll get Photoshop for now, so I can get busy making segment textures.
Later though, I want to figure out how to get these alpha channeled images (_S files) in DarkBASIC Professional.
I'm still a noob in DBP, because I rarely get a chance to play with it, but I want to use it to make a Bump mapping tool.
The results of using these maps and shaders are amazing.

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bond1
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 20:04 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 20:05
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Yes it loads the alpha channels just fine, just get the Nvidia Photoshop plugins from the Nvidia website.


Also, I very highly recommend the book "How to Cheat in Photoshop". It's really aimed at the photomontage artist, but almost all of it can also be applied to making game textures. It will really open your eyes to what can be achieved in photoshop, especially for a beginner. The opening chapters really give you hands-on experience of photoshop fundamentals, and you can use those fundamentals to solve just about any texture making problem.

The book "3D Game Textures" is also pretty good too. But I think it's a little too specific at times, it walks you tediously through each step without really explaining why you're doing what you're doing.

Good luck with the auction.

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Uthink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 21:06
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Anyone know what the RGB channels are all about in a specular map? Seems like it's just the alpha channel that matters?

@John & Bond
Thanks for the info about alpha on a normal. That explains why I had no luck retexturing the Elite room. Figures that I would pick that to try first. Once I switched to the Alien room like Nomad and Conjure, I had no problems. Well, not many problems. LOL

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 00:22 Edited at: 10th Jan 2008 08:43
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Quote: "Good luck with the auction"

Thanks for the reminder. ( I did forget, whew still 2 hours+ left)

Thanks for the advice about the books too. I will definitly check them out.
I hope to see a lot of users taking advantage of these effects, because it will really show off what FPSC X10 can do.
I wish I was better at texturing, but at least with these depth effects my textures stand a better chance of looking decent.

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Uthink
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 04:01
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Quote: "i believe the alpha channel of the normal map acts as a heightmap for the relief mapping side of the segment shader"


Anyone know of any good links to explain relief maps and how to make them? I'm not getting good results in Google. Or maybe I just don't understand them.

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Uthink
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Finally got a good 3D look to my textures. I think the relief map helps. I put in the alpha channel of the normal map.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman

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Inspire
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 03:14
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Nice. Looks way too plastic-like though. Try making the parts that are scratched off less shiny, and make the rest of it a bit less shiny as well.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 07:37 Edited at: 21st Jan 2008 07:37
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Uthink, that looks awesome dude!

Very Nice!                        

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Uthink
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 02:36
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Quote: "Try making the parts that are scratched off less shiny, and make the rest of it a bit less shiny as well."


Would it be in the specular map? I'm not sure what makes it shiny? If I remove the light and just use ambiance, there's not shine at all.

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Inspire
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 04:01
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Yeah, it's the specular map.

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Dark Jaguar Flame
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 16:02
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Is there a way to make it with paint shop pro or CrazyBump.
Pleas tell it my, i cant buy photoshop.

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Uthink
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 16:43
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I don't know about Paint Shop, I think Conjured had a problem with viewing the alpha channel in stock files with paint shop. You can always give Gimp a try. I'm pretty sure it works and it's free.

And yes, Crazybump is very good at creating normal maps etc.

The key is to have a program that lets you edit the alpha channel in dds files.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Dark Jaguar Flame
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 16:47
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I cant find a plug-in for paint shop pro for alpha channel and dds files.

same story with GIMP. (Or i cant find a way do make that)

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Uthink
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 16:53
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In Gimp, try....

<Image>->Image->Alpha->Add Alpha To Image

DDS plugin....

http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=4816

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Dark Jaguar Flame
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 17:03 Edited at: 22nd Jan 2008 17:11
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Thank you !!

Now i must find out where i must paste the file.

AND how it works to make 3d textures with that.
like fpe etc

edit

I dont see things with alpha?

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Uthink
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 18:20
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I'll take a look at it when I get home this evening.

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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 19:56 Edited at: 22nd Jan 2008 19:56
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Fine man!!
Thank you.

Free media, coming soon!
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Uthink
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Joined: 30th Sep 2006
Location: State of Confusion
Posted: 23rd Jan 2008 16:25 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2008 16:26
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I was wrong about the dds plugin. You can find it here http://nifelheim.dyndns.org/~cocidius/dds/ I tried it out and it works great.

As for alpha channels in Gimp. Just select the layer and then right click on it. You should see a "Add Alpha Channel" option. Now I must confess that I had a difficult time editing the alpha channel. But I didn't spend too much time on it.

There's also a Normal Map plugin for Gimp. [href]http://nifelheim.dyndns.org/%7ecocidius/normalmap/ [/href] Seems good, but I prefer CrazyBump because of it's easy user for Relief and Specular maps.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
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Nomad Soul
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Joined: 9th Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 24th Jan 2008 01:41 Edited at: 24th Jan 2008 01:41
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Nice work all and useful information regarding the various paint programs also.

@Uthink

Nice texture work. It's great to see surfaces being given so much more detail now and having the ability to determine the material attributes to give a realistic finish to the way segments look in game.

I couldn't resist purchasing model pack 16 for X10 just to get my hands on Simon's construction segment so I have another normal / specular mapped segment reference to learn from.

Test screenshot attached

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