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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] The nFinity project

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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:29
"There's quite a lot there, if your good enough to reach it "

They are more what I'd call tweaks rather than revolution.

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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:35
You guys should take a leaf out of Valve's book: Content first, hype later.

Anyhow, the immediacy with which this project appeared shows that a sum total of nil market research has gone into it. Vapourware is a generous term.

Look lets be realistic guys, a console which you download plans for and make yourself and install specially setup software IS realistic. A console to compete with the other commercial players is not. I think we need to change the perspective a bit here.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:45
hey maybe the nFinity project has done nothing but i have done some of this research. yes i came to the same conclusion i can sell the OS online with plans to construct your own and ship the full system seperatly with games and what not, its possible (if any major corperation would take notice) to sell in a store but as for actually having the Shadow Factor beat a PS2 is just not logical... but even if i can sell it, it would mean jobs for all of DBPro Programmers



but wouldn't it be cool if we the DBPro community could produce a console that runs our games.

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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:54 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2003 22:54
I think a realistic goal would be better as nobody will suffer the disappointment of it flopping.

@PD - Good luck, but as you know perfectly well, EA have not been contacted, CORE have not been contacted, EIDOS think that nFinity is an NVidia engine, and FMTau exists only as a few hundred lines of HTML. Reality bites

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:58
this is the case i used for the new System it may be to big



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W0LF
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:13
Another thing....
Most people here have trouble getting people to download their games for free. Now you expect someone to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a system so they could purchase your games.
Let's put this in perspective. OK.... I go to the store with a couple of hundred dollars. I see an X-Box, a PS2, a GameCube, and an nFinity. hmm... I think I'll buy the X-Box. It has lot's of good games and seems to have better ones coming out. Ok, now I have my X-box. I go to the store with some more money. Boy that GameCube looks promissing. It can do almost everything the X-Box can do plus Nintendo's games Rock. Now I have my X-Box and GameCube. Wow, I just got some more money. Let's see what is left. The PS2 or an nFinity. Well, the PS2 has such a great base of games. There are literally thousands of them. hmm.... that nFinity has an Asteroids game made by some guy by the name of PnuematicDarryl though!?!. What to do, what to do? Well, I'm going to have to go with the PS2. I just spent $550, and I didn't even buy any games, extra controllers or memory cards yet.

In short, my point is this. If you think ANYONE would chose something like this over any of the established systems, you are nuts. The console industry is flooded. There are already too many. In fact, I believe that there is really only room for 2 main consoles. PS2 is just hanging around because of it's established base. Microsoft is pushing it's X-Box to the top by taking a huge loss on each system sold. That takes some serious cash. If a company was willing to spend that kind of money in order to compete with the big boys, do you really think they would let Raven or Jerico head it up? LOL!

WOLF

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:25
[rant ]
really RobK... a leaf out of Valve's book?
the same people who overhyped Half-Life which although was a bloody good game, the ending was a total letdown infact the whole Xen epic was the epitaph of that title ... plus the hundreds and hundreds of bugs which even 7years on they've still not totally fixxed!
or perhaps you mean the same leaf that has Team Fortress2 on it, or Counter-Strike Zero Hour?

you know why they didn't say bugger all enough HL2 being in production? because it started out life AS Team Fortress2, they then saw Doom3's use of shaders and though "Bugger we've gotta catch up" ... they spent just over a year redeveloping the entire engine to use them an hiring new artists who understood Softimage XSI enough to be able to actually create the artwork to backup this new engine.
Most of what the engine has ended up with like the amazing physics engine are just licenses... i have a feeling once people get past the graphical look of the game they'll probably think exactly the same as they did with Unreal2.
[/rant ]

That aside... perhaps we've had a fraction of the time most people have spend on Researching the project and getting things going, but for just over 2 weeks to have 2 professional developers, several more thinking about the possibility, the possible backing of Mathengine as well as 2 DBP development teams with a few more possibilities and an entire staff of professionals who understand hardware & software requirements and have been working with the hardware & software proposed very closely ... then i'd say this project is hardly just being winged as we go.

yes it is mostly a concept now, but even an army of scientists require time to develop the nessary adjustments to even currently working hardware to make them viable together and then further develop the OS and Drivers for the needs available. You want visible results just wait rather than believeing that nothing will turn up.

The reason for this post is
a) the original concept is already here and as we're not giving any finalised information but what is the concepts and currently researched data ... then you can't take any of this as written in stone for atleast a month, at which time information will either be released officially else it'll just be kept to ourselves & the developers.
b) to get the backing of the community that it is being bred from, i mean how the hell do you expect us to convince a worldwide of people if you have a community saying "oh this is gonna fail, i think i'll just see how many ways i can tear thier idea apart."
c) give this community the chance to develop games with a set system as a base, although we hope that the games produced will be placed on this machine ... there is a chance it may not make it to market, or even worse hit the market and fail miserably.
either way the developers will have thier games professionaly published, as FMTau is a management publisher after all.
due to current deals the developers are actually the only people who just plainly cannot loose from this.

quite frankly as far as those who want to knock this machine then do so, thats upto you - personally i'd prefer it if you don't like this you just not post, if you don't like this being a sticky then Puffy did ask Rich and it hasn't been unstuck. Just because something is a sticky doesn't mean you have to post.

we're expanding the areas in which we're looking for developers now, obviously the original post is going to be cutdown in informaiton just really projecting the idea and language to be used as well as the projected system specs.
believe it or not developers DO need to know what system thier developing towards and the language they're to use if they want to know if they can... NDA is all well and good but people don't walk blindly into a dark room, they like atleast a small flashlight.

Rob, think about it hype is all good but we're NOT looking for our consumer market here... we're looking for DEVELOPERS, whats the point in having people developing for a machine which is already on the market? and who will buy one when it is?

none of this is ment as hype in any form what-so-ever, personally i don't care about hype right now - all i care about are people knowing as much information as they'll need to know to convince them to develop.

you know the Specificiations, you know the Media Type, you know the language, you will soon know exactly what the controller looks like plus the drivers will up within the next 2weeks once i finish them (and i can do this because DirectX is the Driver layer in WinNT5 Kernel)
Probably also show off my chopjob controller so you can see roughly what you'll be using.
You also know that it'll have DialUp 56k or Broadband or Ethernet connection capabilities for netplay.
You'll should already know what the TV picture format is for PAL & NTSC TVs

you know that you can use shaders so getting used to useing the standard ASM ones in DBP now would be a good idea, you also know that we're working on Karma Dynamic and Physics functions for you all to use so finding out more on Karma might be a good idea for some of you.
You also know that we're trying to get Softimage XSI as the base modeler so perhaps downloading the XSI-EXP version would get you guys ready for what it will be like, especially as right now were working on KAT exporting and implimentation tools for it.

perhaps rather than knocking this machine you could think of something we're missing and suggest it.

the way i see it developers have ALOT to be looking into, and learning about over the next month or so ... so that when the development machine is fully developed they'll be ready to start programming the second it is released than waiting and then having to learn everything from the start rather than just adapting to the exacting features.

although some of you seem to have very very weird thoughs about what developers need to do for this console and what they need to know, even dispite that i've still tried to answer all the quibbles everyone has had with the machine as much or as indepth as i am actually allowed to.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:28
Quote: "PD - Good luck, but as you know perfectly well..."


That doesn't really matter to me. If it's all a big April fools joke then I simply sell the finished games another way. Either to another publisher, or as shareware.

To any prospective DB programmer for this machine much the same is true, FMTau is just one possibility of a publisher, there's nothing so system specific that we need to worry about.

True Raven is talking of making a dll for the shader commands to make them more basic and easier to use, and that would be tied to the specific hardware card of the console, but that's a future-issue.

Let's recap so we don't get lost in flames here.

The post was to raise awareness of the console amongst DB programmers so that they can consider FMTau as a potential publisher.

The reason this is being taken out of perspective, and I think this was a mistake, is because FMTau presented the console. Really Rob should have come here and made his case as a publisher and mentioned migration to a new platform only in the broadest of senses, because really all we have to do is include support for the controller and TV resolution.

I think he made this mistake because of the boards past connection with the console's birth, and because he has been here a long time and we all know him as a 3d modeller with strong views and a tendancy to make posts a length that rival and frequently exceed mine.

So if you develop games for DB and you've a quality product under development then I think you would be foolish not to contact Raven and talk about his terms before you committ to another publisher or to going shareware.

If you don't write any games, as many observers here have never done (or keep them to themselves), then perhaps you wouldn't agree that this is a good idea - because your interest here is purely political and nothing to do what-so-ever with helping fledgling programming teams find a publisher.

For this, I credit your obstinance and wish only that if you really believe that the teams are getting conned you make me (as a member of one such team) aware of this in some quantifyable way, rather than just saying 'itll never happen' - when that actually makes no difference at all to the actual games programmers like myself.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:38
LOL @ Raven
This subject is just too amusing to stay out of. I'm not being pessimistic. You are just flat out lying. You have pro developers? EA? EDIOS? CORE? What a frick'n joke.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:45
Quote: "LOL @ Raven
This subject is just too amusing to stay out of. I'm not being pessimistic. You are just flat out lying. You have pro developers? EA? EDIOS? CORE? What a frick'n joke.
"


I re-iterate.

Quote: "...your interest here is purely political and nothing to do what-so-ever with helping fledgling programming teams find a publisher."


Am I wrong?

If you want to play politics how about joining a political party, or if you want to constructively contribute to this post how about helping the teams here find alternative publishers?

Pneumatic Dryll
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 23:57
PD,
Don't get me wrong.... Like I said earlier, you do NOT have anything to lose. I DO wish you luck with what you are doing. I hope you do get your games published and do well. I even think you have a chance of doing that.
What erks me is the lies that are being told. It is an embarrasment to the DB community and makes it look like it is mostly a bunch of kids with their heads in the clouds. Maybe it is....

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:04
? true wolf, i cant market a console, but with luck and a good presentation either the nFinity or my system could get attention from a company that can market it, especialy since alot of kids want to produce theyre own games these days, this could be a good idea plus with alot of good DBPro Programmers they could market theyre games through the systems marketing company.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:05
what lies?

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W0LF
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:17
what lies?
That there is someone that is going to financially back this thing. That pro developers (EA,EDIOS,Core) are interested, let alone signed. The BS is deep. Real deep.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:26
i never said that i said if a company was interested thats the nFinity Fool talking i know only with luck and skill can i make console thats marketable. hmm maybe...

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W0LF
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:33
Well Eddie...
I was talking about the nFinity the whole time. I have no idea what you are even talking about.

Anyway, I've had enough laughs for the day. I'll stay tuned for more tomarrow. If this dosn't make it as a console, maybe it can as a sitcom.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:35
you didn't notice i am also making a console? hmm... less BS more work. This nFinity sounds fake to me i see pics work or anything!

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ClearCoder
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:46
wow when did this topic start that why i'm out the loop. is the nfinity a db pro console only or are us primitive DB classic allowed to join

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the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:56 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2003 00:57
@ Crystal

Look at the first page.
You might want to look at about a third of the way down the third page, apparantly you have agreed to make games for it in dbp. (I asume you are the Crystal mentioned)
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 00:56
well i cant speak for the nFinity but The Shadow Factor can definitly support DBC

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 01:19
When people don't believe Raven, he lies. It's his thing.

You should see the post in Offtopic about Sony/handheld. He's still saying that the GBA has a 30MHz processor

--Mouse

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 01:47
hmm...price is always an issue this is what mine costs to build
i know im missing something and some of these parts are not compatible possibly so just stay with me this just what it might cost

Specs
Intel Celeron 1.2GHz 52.00
Matsonic Socket 370 ATA100 52.00
GForce 4 MX440 SE 64m 30.00
256m Ram 55.00
Compact Caseing 55.00
20 Gigabyte Hard Drive 65.00
16XDVD/CD-Rom Drive 45.00
Floppy Drive 13.00
Controls and Accessorys
HDC Black Keyboard Mouse and Speaker Combo 30.00
Belkin Nostromo n45 Dual USB 13-Button Game Pad 24.00

Total:421

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 04:17
mouse i believe it is more that people always want to show me up, i don't know why nor to i really care.
its funny how people will always bring in another post where they believe they've won an argument against me hook-line-n-sinker just to prove some idiotic point.

firstly it would've been preffered that this entire topic was kept to questions about the nFinity, secondly the questions should be those which consern developers interests, you people seem to want bloody miricles - i've taveled half way over the bloody world over the past few weeks getting these deals set and finalised about just the nFinity, and this wasn't posted until we had definate proof from our hardware developer that this project was being done.

where the console is there or not should not matter because you can't just pick up a system and develop for it - you want to make a computer game which has a viable market?

you have to PLAN, you have to LEARN the language and extensions, you have to DEVELOP the media ... there is so much to do with the game which only matters on the surface of what the console will be.
all you guys want to do is put the idea down without even careing about what its about or what is it going for, one minute you say "yeah i understand" next you're saying "this is all just lies".

just admit it you guys are in here because i'm the one behind this damn'd thing and you want to have cracks at me and what i represent.
i have had EA Games & EIDOS Interactive with Publisher Deals to FMTau since December when i wanted FMTau to be a publisher company and felt that it would be better to actually be a publisher manager, but NOONE has cared to use that service of even inquire about it - not that any of you that want to kibosh everything before it is off the ground.

i seem to forget that all of you seem to be certified genius about everything especaily with a search engine like gooogle to back you up no matter how trival.
if you don't like the idea guys then find DON'T POST, we don't need people just dumping thier crap all the time... and from the get go this is making a very bad image.

Quite frankly i thank god that this ISN'T an officially backed post because your comment could cost me deals with people, you guys seem to forget i'm not like you here - its so stupid because, you sit here quoting sites, making all of this trouble and at the end of the day the funny thing is who gets the bad image because of all of this... not you - oh no, its those who are actually out in these fields ACTUALLY doing this stuff.

Pneumatic has worked in retail before and he gave you what he knows from when he was working in the business just to have it dismissed by someone who says not him but his friends knows this and has said "blah, blah."

so who does the community back, the guy with umpteen years experience or the kid with a contact ... god quite frankly this whole community has the wrong priority and the funniest thing is that most of you who make the trouble on this scale have produce very little to backup what you say.

i truely thank god that i don't have any of the developers on this site itself, and i hope that those checking out DBP aren't on these forums - because if you think they'll back a product which main community is like this then you've got another thing comming. There is only so much blasted Damage control i can do - and i think if this post was official i could kiss everything i've worked for over the past few weeks goodbye.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 11:52
hora

Maybe Just maybe this should more to FMTau Forums, then the spammers who are actually getting in the way can go.

Just one question though, for the people that are opposed.

Why? How does it affect you?

ok that was 2

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I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 12:17
Well PD, good luck with your games and good luck with the project - but please, keep your goals realistic.

Adieu.

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madbilly
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 16:23
FFS you bloody bunch of cynical sods!!!

Can't you be supportive of ANYTHING that anybody says? There's a lot people staking a heck of a lot more than reputation on this and all you can do is repeatedly point out the same thing over and over again till you're blue in the face, EVEN THOUGH that point has already been answered.

Okay, it may be in the end that it won't see the light of day, but in the mean time at least be optimistic and supportive. If you can't think of a good idea yourselves then at least have the gall to admit that somebody else has come up with one. That's one of the main problems with newsgroups/forums - they get depersonalised so that people don't care what they say about other people, even though they would never say such a thing to a random stranger in the street. Look, I'm doing it now!

This forum's meant to be for discussion, not slagging people off and telling them they're no-hopers, over-optimistic, head in the clouds and (as some people have said) plain stupid.

Raven, PD, Jerico et. al. - good luck, you're gonna need it, but at least you've got the guts.
Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 18:14
"FFS you bloody bunch of cynical sods!!!"

I'm British, its something we're born with

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W0LF
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 18:15
Madbilly,
I would definately be supportive of a good idea. The fact is though that this is not. It has ZERO chance of working and if you think otherwise you are a fool.

I do wish people like Jerico and PD luck. I would love to see them succeed. If they do though, it won't be with this.

Two things bothered me about this whole topic, otherwise I would have never posted. The first problem was the fact that it was sticky. That makes it appear to be a DB supported project. Read Rich's reaction and you'll see how supportive he is. If I was visiting these forums for the first time and read this post I definately would think the whole community is a bunch of kids that think they are making the next DOOM. I would have left and not returned. The topic is no longer sticky though, so I am happy about that. The second problem is the lies that Raven is telling about having pro developers such as CORE, EDIOS and EA. I doubt that he is saying those things to gain support for the project. I think it is more about making himself look important.

I am happy that the topic is no longer sticky, so I will quit posting here now. I do want to say again though that I do wish everyone luck. Just don't be fooled by a great salesman.

WOLF

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 19:44
Quote: "I'm British, its something we're born with "


lol!

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 20:19
Quote: "I am happy that the topic is no longer sticky, so I will quit posting here now. I do want to say again though that I do wish everyone luck. Just don't be fooled by a great salesman."


Yay a result.

So what if it does not work, i bet people though DB would not work when it was in Dev. I bet the PS2 was just a small project, a pure fluke that sony got the licence.

And even if you did not think it is posible then why the hell post 'i do not think this will work' posts, try listening, and give ideas with the angle of if it did happen.

Well on topic.

Raven i know you been all over the place, but i really need some content, even if you just make copies of the template and give em the correct names.

Then i can get your news and virtual Dirs created.

Ok, Cya

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
madbilly
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 02:49
Quote: "I'm British, its something we're born with"


Do am I and I wasn't born with inbuilt cynicism, nor such a poor sense of humour.

Quote: "That's one of the main problems with newsgroups/forums - they get depersonalised so that people don't care what they say about other people, even though they would never say such a thing to a random stranger in the street."


Yeah, I know I'm being a hypocrit!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 04:01
:: rubs temples :: i swear this community is going to be the death of me, or atleast the current attitudes of certain users.

i'm kinda happy i didn't just leave Jerico to brunt all of this, or to have a company member who is technically working for FMTau insulted.
you know my partner wants to actually know why on earth i still actually deal with the community after the reaction that this has got ... anyone care to field why not only i give a damn about this communities reaction but also why my partner should actually back this project at all?

both him and Pneumatic have told me that i should probably base the console around a friendlier community, both have suggest Blitz.
quite frankly i'm begining not to care for the current atmosphere of the louder users here, the language won't change and both know why.

But whether the ties are made to either the Apollo or the RGT communities, well that is just something to decide when this project is made official ... if this is the voice of my partner and one of the actual developers, then straight away the vote is 2:1 not forgetting what the investors and other developers will decide.
i'd think if most of you want to actually show the community in a mannor that truely represents it, perhaps putting down people left-right-and-centre is not the best option hmm?

you know i'm still waiting to see how long we have to give that RGT invasion before we can have the forum back to how it was ... but somehow i very much doubt that'll ever happen.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
pugmartin
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 04:19
Well i say:

Good luck to the whole thing!

I think it sounds like a great idea and would like to see it made a reality but it will be a hard slog.

Good luck anyway

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 04:39
thanks... its been pretty hard now, and i don't think anything is going to be harder than convincing them that you've developed an idea for a risky investment.

but then again i'm not exactly the best people person there is hehee
ordinary people fear jumping off cliffs with nothing attached to them but a tiney bit of rope ... but Nooo i have to be afraid of a room full of suits. lol

i've got alot of other developers to convince yet, i mean really although i've secured everything as far as the developers are conserned the the actual hardware probably won't be out of the woods of the will it/won't it wonder until we can get more professional companies stand up and say "yeah we wouldn't mind having this platform around."
i've got the challenge to get atleast 5 to say "Yeah we whole heartidly support this." ... so much waiting kills me, why i have Brent here actually - he's a bloody good businessman and has been getting all of the patents and general things that i don't even think about. FMTau would be lost without the guy

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 05:13
'both him and Pneumatic have told me that i should probably base the console around a friendlier community, both have suggest Blitz.'


They're gullible enough for scams like this over there, but don't think we're stupid enough to be scared by that attempt at a threat. This is just the kind of thing Blitzers would go nuts over... just like all the other scams they got caught up in.

Have a nice daydream.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 06:39
yeah well i don't give a crap which community backs this product with actual software, as long as they use DBP then what does it matter what background they come from?

it isnt' a threat in anyway and wasn't ment as one Mouse, it is really ironic that it is actually the under 18's that are the main people dead set against this ... kinda really sad.

i don't really give two flips if the console does well, i don't care what a few cynical kids believe about the possibilities ... at the end of the day i want developers on this project, no matter what happens these developers games will be published, they will be paid, and FMTau will make a nice little mint in the process - plus alot of these people will go from being Shareware, to Retail Budget or even Full Retail.

if you don't like this then you know that there is a very simple solution... DON'T CLICK ON THE THREAD LINK!
i don't expect any of the people who are deadset against this to actually want to participate, and we're not telling anyone they have to ... but i think for once in your pathetic lives you could show some mark of respect for everything that a dertemined few which is growing everyday are actually trying to accomplish here.

unlike you the past two weeks i've not been sitting at home, probably downloading something you shouldn't be, watching TV, hanging out in the forums with the time to sit and research on the internet for answer to posts, going with the general "down with Raven" kinda attitude... No instead i have been traveling halfway across this friggin' world, meeting people i hope to sign for this bloody machine that it seems that most are very very vocal in the fact you don't even want.
I have convinced my partner who has shotdown every possible business idea i have had in the past and i'm using a good lot of the funds that he has been using to keep FMTau alive to get this off the ground... Myself, Brent and a few other dedicated people have barely slept within a week, we all look like complete crap, feel just as bad.
Add ontop of this i'm developing 1 title in DirectX/C++, another i'm working on the media for in DarkBASIC Pro, i'm working on setting up a good few plugins which will be needed by the community, i'm learning blasted php&java internet programming, i'm getting to grips with setting up the language and compiler for Bg, i'm negotiating alot of deals with my cellphone which is going off around the bloody clock because i have people in god knows how many different timezones wanting to know what the hells i going on, what they need to expect, new information about not just this project but other FMTau Business.

all this... just for some little 16yo f**ker in the US to keep ramming it down my throat in a f**king thread that really i don't even know why the heck he posted within, that he thinks this is all just a big joke or thinks that everyone would be crazy to atleast be interested in the possibility of joining or learning more information.

what do you think i'm doing here, playing with sodding monopoly money talking to the walls thinking everything will just magically f**king happen on its own?
you think that i've not spent the past month planning out every single possible aspect of this bloody thing, working out what is the best operating systems - not just how but who actually has the skills to achieve what we want and trying to negotiate for them to actually do that, trying to convince a manufacture that this high risk product is actually worth the risk because the language and concept is one which has been accepted before a decade ago and with the right skills we can actually made the idea a success within the field of vultures... making sure that enough companies are sitting there atleast saying that the idea is worth this to make sure the developers don't turn around and change thier mind, showing that there would be a possible viable market.

i'm about ready to drop from everything i've done just to hear that!
you want a daydream, how about the one about you actually doing something worth while with your life hmm?
how about the one where you actually become a good programmer or artist, or whatever the hell you ACTUALLY do around here other than waste the bandwidth... how about you daydream about just how hard REAL people work in the REAL world that actually powers the bloody site which your on right now and the effort and time put into the very product which your using which actually gives someone like you to type a simple one line command and be proud you made a single cube on a blue background!
how about you daydream about that all for some time and then get back to me about thinking that it was some f**king wise idea to actually perhaps maybe have rethought actually making a comment within this post, eh!!

had enough of all the wise-cracks and the wise-ass little brats who can sit there and talk a big talk all the damn day, sit on the internet and thing they know everything have thier daddies by them all the computer hardware they need and crap like that ... there is a difference between people like you and those who actually live AND work within the real world.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
The admiral
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 10:43
Quote: "Most people here have trouble getting people to download their games for free. Now you expect someone to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a system so they could purchase your games.
Let's put this in perspective. OK.... I go to the store with a couple of hundred dollars. I see an X-Box, a PS2, a GameCube, and an nFinity. hmm... I think I'll buy the X-Box. It has lot's of good games and seems to have better ones coming out. Ok, now I have my X-box. I go to the store with some more money. Boy that GameCube looks promissing. It can do almost everything the X-Box can do plus Nintendo's games Rock. Now I have my X-Box and GameCube. Wow, I just got some more money. Let's see what is left. The PS2 or an nFinity. Well, the PS2 has such a great base of games. There are literally thousands of them. hmm.... that nFinity has an Asteroids game made by some guy by the name of PnuematicDarryl though!?!. What to do, what to do? Well, I'm going to have to go with the PS2. I just spent $550, and I didn't even buy any games, extra controllers or memory cards yet.

In short, my point is this. If you think ANYONE would chose something like this over any of the established systems, you are nuts. The console industry is flooded. There are already too many. In fact, I believe that there is really only room for 2 main consoles. PS2 is just hanging around because of it's established base. Microsoft is pushing it's X-Box to the top by taking a huge loss on each system sold. That takes some serious cash. If a company was willing to spend that kind of money in order to compete with the big boys, do you really think they would let Raven or Jerico head it up? LOL!"


Dude you dont know what new games will be developed for the nfinity plus remember it will have some very powerful grpahics and processing hardware meaning better graphics,new effects like pixel shaders and vertex shaders,less bugs its only one systems specs,alot more commitment because a team will be selling their product !!!! You didnt consider these things also only certain selected groups will be able to make games for it so they will usually be made sure to be good.

[href]www.vapournet.com/~flyer[/href]
Neophyte
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 12:21
@Raven

I've refrained from posting on this topic because of our recent past history up until now, but things are getting a little out of hand so I think I'll interdict.

Others have echoed my thoughts here and to be frank I have my doubts. That said, I'll stick to the positives from here on out and ask the important questions that nobody seems to be asking. This isn't an attack on you so please don't take it that way. I'm just curious.

First up, you mentioned that this will be using DBPro as a base for development. What, if any, restrictions will there be on what DBPro will be capable of doing on the nFinity? Can programs be compiled in windowed mode? What about multiple resolutions? If I recall correctly the standard TV resolution was 800x600 or something(though I could be wrong on that one) so that leaves bigger resolutions like 1024x768 out of the picture. On that train of thought, will it be HDTV compatiable?

This leads me to another question regarding the IDE. The options that I mentioned previously that can't be included, will the IDE be modified to exclude those options? Will they be crossed off or something to prevent them from being checked or will the compiler be modified to just produce a error warning if they are used?

Also, is DBPro the only development platform that is allowed or is DBPro just shiped with the nFinity project as a standard engine with other 3D engines being allowed to run on the nFinity? I certainly hope the latter as the former would kill the chances of this thing truly taking off. Don't get me wrong. I like DBPro and I think its great, but not everybody does.

There are alot of engines out in the indy scene, some of them free, and forcing people to use just DBPro would be a real turn off to many who have either made their own engine or become attached to a paticular engine. There is also the issue of the basic syntax. I like it but many people, yourself included I believe you said, have a tough time switching from C++ to a basic syntax. Add on to this the current inability to pass user defined types into functions and you will have many people, who would otherwise give it a shot, flat out refusing to even consider it. Things get even more complicated when you look at the current state of the documentation. As it is right now, it sucks. No offense to DBS, but the documentation is really poor and incomplete in some places. This will add another hurdle to those trying to migrate to this language and even to those trying to learn it as their first language. (On a side note: Do you plan on releasing some tutorials with DBPro that, step-by-step, walk one through how to make a complete game from start to finish? That would really help complete newbies who haven't programmed before and would like to dive in head first. Something along the lines of the FPS tutorial in the DBPro manuel, only more complete, would be great.) You'll also have to deal with the issue of bugs and who will fix them. As it stands right now, there are currently only two coders working on DBPro and they are pretty busy as is. Game stopping bugs in an engine that you don't have the source for can ruin you finacially or force you to abandon part of your game design because currently the time between patches is a couple of months and game developers on a tight schedule(which is just about all game developers) can't afford to wait that long. Having only two coders to share between possibly hundreds of companies is going to be a massive bottleneck in production and just not an acceptable risk to take from a developer stand point.

Although it seems like a really good oppurtunity to let DBPro really shine, limiting the platform to only one engine will doom it to failure. I know that I seem to be harping on this point a lot but I'm really worried at the lack of attention to this detail. I haven't seen any mention of other engines running on the nFinity and I've come away with the feeling that DBPro is the only one that will be allowed even though I don't remember it being stated explicitly. DBPro can still benifit greatly from being the standard engine to use even if other engines are allowed because it will garner a lot of attention for DBPro and help to create a new user base among fans of the console.

Also, the advantage of allowing multiple engines will really help to garner a lot of support from the indy scene. You could go to indy game conferences to show the nFinity and really push for that homebrew feeling. The whole david vs. golith thing could really boost your sales as people will often rout for the little guy just because he is the under dog and this could work for you, but only if you market yourself as such and really do everything you can to get as many developers be they small or big on board to really put up a fight against the "Big Three".

That aside, will there be any additional software that will be shipped with the nFinity? Like maybe a 3D modeller? You seem to be advertising this as a platform to both play games on and to develop games on but the absense of any form of media creation utility would render the nFinity rather incomplete with regards to that last aspect.

Personally, I have my heart set on Blender at the moment.http://www.blender3d.com/ Its free and open sourced so you could modify it to run on the nFinity if you have to. Blender has many advantages to it the first and foremost being that its free. The second that almost any need you have, be it animation, rendering cutscenes for games, uv mapping, model creation, and(when blender 2.28 comes out) sound mixing, it can handle it. There is also a game engine in the works that will allow you to model your characters and plop them into one of your levels to test them out. It also has the distinction of being incrediably small! In an age of 500 mb behemoth modelling softwares blender is quite compact. With all that it can do it weighs in at a microscopic 5 megabytes uncompressed.

Another thought just occured to me. Many 3d modelling softwares runs best in OpenGL not to mention other engines that rely on OpenGL for graphics. Will the nFinity support OpenGL? If so which versions? If not, why?

Also, what exactly are the onboard sound capablities? Will there be any ports for external sound equipment like the headset that comes with XBox live?

While we are on the topic of online play, you mentioned something about AOL having special servers that could be set up but I'm wondering if one could use the online capabilies with ones own servers. Or is the online thing subscription only like XBox live?

Another issue is the controller. What will it look like? Will you write your own dll for the controller's buttons and joysticks or will we be left using the standard directx functions for them? Does it support force feedback? Will potential developers have a say in how it is designed?

There is also the issue of the mouse. Will the mouse be able to be used in games? This could be an unfair advantage over other players who are using the controller so will there be any way to prevent players from using one or the other? Will the hardware be secure enough to prevent others from hacking your software in order to cheat and use the mouse?

What about compatiablity/portability. If I recall correctly, you said that anything that we write in DBPro can be ported over to the PC no problem. But will this include Bg? Can we use Bg on the PC or is it an nFinity only thing? Will we still be able to use Cg on the nFinity as well?

Sorry if this has been answered before but will FMTau be the only publisher? Will there be others? If so who or are we too early in the game to be releasing that kind of information?

Finally, assuming that the software gets off to a good start, will there be a main website for the nFinity project where players can download demos from developers? This would be very handy and would help solve the problem of small time developers attracting attention to themselves as having one place to look for games simplifies the process of finding them. You could hold like a top 100 list or something that shows which games are the hottest futher simplifing the process and producing an added incentive to create the best game possible among developers. You could have special sections of the list for new releases or demos that way no one gets buried at the bottom unnecessarily.

Whew! That was a lot of questions! Well, since thats all I can think of right now I think I'll give it a rest. I hope this pushes this topic back in to the right direction where it should be.

FieldDoc
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 14:10
@Neophyte:
Some excellent points....i'm not sure of the history you say you have with Raven but it's nice to hear some well thought ou comments and questions rather than a WOLF or Mouse led flame war.

@Raven:
I would be honoured to be included in this project....i'm only a one man shop i'm afraid but I have a few years of programming in QB, VB and now DB behind me and I, forst and foremost, love programming games. I have sent an email to jericho as asked.

This whole project is a wonderful idea....it's great to regain that wonderful nostalgic feeling of programming my old Spectrum or Amstrad. This is what this community should be about....we are all (supposedly) here because we think that DB is one of (if not the best) all-purpose game programming language. This is our opportunity to club together, to be the underdog, to be David and not only do something fun but maybe make some pennies out of it...?

I think this project stands a chance...it may well fail, many have before it, but like has been said, everyone likes the underdog......

striker25
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 14:23
I agree with every positivly slanted poster. Wolf and Mouse are just....dang...what are they? I'd say they are jealous or something...anyway, who cares about them. Raven, ive known you for a while, and i think you are easily up to this, and i wish you the best

Also..i might include my dev team in your gang Could you email me with what is required to join or any other information a developer may need.I am primerily a (dodges bullets) RGT user, and i have a large project going on over there. The nfinity project it perfect for my game

@Wolf and Mouse, etc.
You guys have nothing to lose, and you are just hell bent on nailing coffins into the coffin you have built for Raven and nfinity. Sorry fellas, your the ones in the coffin and we all might be dancing on youre graves soon. If not, hopefully you learnt something.(dunno what, but hey)

Regards,
Striker25

striker25
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 14:25
lol..banging nails into his coffin(dang..that stuffed the whole speech!!LOL)

Witch Bomber
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 14:36
@ Everyone who is arguing:
What would you all be doing if this topic had not been started? Programming Games.
What would you all be doing if you thought this console would work? Programming Games.
What are you doing instead? Arguing! Quit wasting your time and program some ****ing games!

Quote: "No sober man dances unless he happens to be mad"

If that is the case, what happens when a madman gets drunk?
Witch Bomber
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 14:38
By the way striker I'd use the edit button. Save yourself any more embarrassment.

Quote: "No sober man dances unless he happens to be mad"

If that is the case, what happens when a madman gets drunk?
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 15:51
Yay a sensable person

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
W0LF
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 16:53
Raven,
Just for your info. I am 27 years old, married and have 2 kids. Most of the time that I ever read the forums (and post) is while I am at work. A real job, making real money. Good amounts of it also.

I would love for you to prove me wrong. I would love to see this happen. I'm not going to flame you anymore or say what I think of you. I think everyone already knows.

I have said before that it will not hurt anyone who wants to think that they are developing for this thing. You will still be working on a game and maybe it will give you a little more motivation. In the end when you find out it is all a farse, you will still have your game and lost nothing. I also will not be poking my head out to say I told you so. Have fun and good luck.

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 18:56
Quote: "that nFinity has an Asteroids game made by some guy by the name of PnuematicDarryl though"


Asteroids will not be released commercialy for the nFinity. I am developing all new commercially viable products at this time. Thankyou for your continued miss-conseptions, lies, and slanders, your input is appreciated by less than half a dozen forum dwellers who thought the comment was funny and who havn't a clue what Nonoxynol is for.

Pneumatic Dryll
SonicBoom
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 19:08
A few years ago when the PS2 came out it was immediately available with YaBASIC, a BASIC type programming language that allowed you to create very simplistic games & apps for the PS2.

This YaBasic took over from the (much more impressive - but expensive) Yarozee development system on the original Playstation console, and allowed "bedroom coders" to program for the console at last.

Whereas the Yarozee concept came along well after the original Playstation launch - I believe it allowed Sony to enjoy some Tax breaks as they could class their toy as an educational tool (or something like that?).

Evidently the functionality of Yarozee was dropped but the concept made available for PS2 under the YaBASIC banner.

In truth its almost traditional that "games consoles", in the broadest sense of the word are programmable by users, be they Spectrum, Amiga or PS2. This is nothing new.

Ok, now the first time I ever head of something called "DarkBASIC" was back in '99 when a Staff writer on the Official PS2 magazine was commenting on the reduced functionality of YaBASIC (compared to Yarozee) and he stated something like "Why didn't Sony bundle something like DakBASIC with the PS2?".

At the time I had never heard of DarkBASIC and didn't know what the guy was on about but now I do and he was dead right. In actual fact I don't believe DarkBASIC would have even been known to the Sony developers at the time the PS2 was thought out but if the console had gone ahead with the planned HDD etc - with a keyboard and net link it would definately have been be a possibility for them. (somewhere in an alternate universe Lee Bamber is actually Vice President of Sony right now - lol)

The point, or observation I'd like to make is that Console developers like Sony see a benefit in allowing users to program their system (even if just for tax breaks), and users (such as us DBers) like the chance to program games.

As the Staff writer noted, what is needed is a console of the PS2 standing, being compatible with DB! That way, everybody wins and no-one has to create a marginal (at best) console in an already flooded market just so you can program DarkBASIC games for it!

So instead of re-inventing the wheel (although the very best of luck if you do!), lets all lobby Sony & Microsoft and beg them to allow their NEXT console to support DarkBASIC coded software
Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 19:43
And I Quote:

'what do you think i'm doing here, playing with sodding monopoly money talking to the walls thinking everything will just magically f**king happen on its own?'

Yes, that's quite accurate Raven .

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
ClearCoder
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 20:17
look yes thats right look at this post if

if you are about to post thing bad or not supportive of this project don't instead grap your mouse and click on another forum.

look if you guy argue any more i will personnally make a reject thread where you and say what ever you like about this project and then none of us people with sense have to read your stupid pety post.

thx you all
@raven you are doing great, if i were you i would ahve probally bailed after the first 100 post of slander, yet here you are still standing strong as ever after 198 well done keep it up, and hope some of my games will end up on the console.

crystal

Newbie Now; Expert Later
Current project:The Sorus
FieldDoc
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 20:49 Edited at: 4th Jun 2003 20:55
@Pneumatic Dryll:
Nonoxynol......LMFAO!

@Eddie Gordo:
WTF are you gibbering about? No one cares about the 'Shadow factor'. Raven is putting a lot of thought into this and you are a school kid who quote:

"hey maybe the nFinity project has done nothing but i have done some of this research." How can you talk about your mountains of research you have done on your project when you said in an earlier post that you hadn't even decided on a name....15mins later you had! Marketing is not gonna be your strongpoint is it?

(For all you who will never get the chance to use Nonoxynol...its a spermicide).

Life is like a penis:
When it's soft you can't beat it, when it's hard you get screwed.

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