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FPSC Classic Work In Progress / FPSC Full Level Demo: The Complex

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 14:58
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Greetings

I spent a bunch of time in the past explaining to people why FPSC is the best indie game development tool out there but I still see comments coming up on the forums questioning this.

Therefore I've gone ahead and developed a full level demo which demonstrates FPSC is capable of maps with counterstrike, unreal tournament quality.

Features of this level include:

- Full scale level using entire map editor surface area
- Seamless Indoor / Outdoor environment
- Spawning of dynamic entities (for improved performance)
- Level ambience controlled with scripts
- Custom huds, AI and terrain
- Action orientated gameplay
- Developed using latest v106 RC4

Video Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--oc9fZNonU

Download link for demo will follow screenshots

Comments / Feedback welcome

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:01
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Indoor screenshot 1/5

All pictures in jpeg format

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:02
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Indoor screenshot 2/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:02
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Indoor screenshot 3/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:03
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Indoor screenshot 4/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:03
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Indoor screenshot 5/5

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Accoun
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:18
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Very nice. Can we see some outdoor screenshots?

Make games, not war.

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nackidno
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 19:25
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It looks cool! Is it going to have linear gameplay? Or are you able to take wich way in the map that suits the player well?

Footsteps W.I.P

[url]nack-pro.se.nu[/url] It's swe!
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AlanC
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 20:07
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Looks great.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:16
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Quote: "Can we see some outdoor screenshots?"


Coming up now!

Quote: "It looks cool! Is it going to have linear gameplay? Or are you able to take wich way in the map that suits the player well?"


The gameplay is fairly linear at the moment but I'm working on a multiplayer version of this level which will be completely open ended.

Quote: "Looks great"


Thanks
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:17
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Outdoor screenshot 1/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:17
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Outdoor screenshot 2/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:17
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Outdoor screenshot 3/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:18
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Outdoor screenshot 4/5

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:18
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Outdoor screenshot 5/5

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darimc
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 22:32
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I love it! those hills make the outdoor screens look like a seamless world.

go to:
www.freewebs.com/futurefps
www.chainoffreedom.com.piczo.com
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Inspire
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 00:29 Edited at: 7th Jul 2007 00:29
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I think it is a really stupid idea to have the level take up the entire grid.

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AlanC
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 00:33
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That would make a really awesome multiplayer level.

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Airslide
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 01:28
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It seems these days in FPSC I always see people placing toilets in the weirdest places

As for multiplayer that would probably follow this simple equation:

Lag = (Full Grid + Lots of Detail + Multiplayer Function Routines + Player Connection Speed) = ((√5)/2)+2*∞

For those mathematically challenged, this basically means you probably won't be able to play the game


Vote today and play the games!
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Inspire
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 03:48
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Quote: "It seems these days in FPSC I always see people placing toilets in the weirdest places "


Hahaha, that's SO true. lol

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 17:23
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Quote: "I love it! those hills make the outdoor screens look like a seamless world."


Thanks. This was something that I wanted to address early on in development and found this to be the best solution.

Quote: "I think it is a really stupid idea to have the level take up the entire grid."


It's a reasonable comment to make for the time being, if a little short sighted.

Quote: "That would make a really awesome multiplayer level"


Cheers. I'm working on this at the moment. This was always my intention as I wanted to develop a level that would cross over from single player to multiplayer really well.

Quote: "For those mathematically challenged, this basically means you probably won't be able to play the game"


Well 'probably' sounds like a good enough reason to try.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 21:42
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Ok

I've now packaged up the demo and uploaded it.

File size: 84meg (compressed from 153meg)

Download link:

http://download.yousendit.com/BE10676005C91219

Have fun!
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Inspire
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 22:26
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Quote: "It's a reasonable comment to make for the time being, if a little short sighted."


How is that short-sighted?

I downloaded and attempted to play this demo. The highest my framerate reached was 12 FPS. Sometimes I got as low as 1 FPS. It was unplayable.

I know what I'm talking about. So don't dismiss my posts as short sighted.

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Silent Thunder
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 22:34
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Sorry Nomad Soul, but those kind of frame rates are unbearable, it is possible to use the whole grid and not have lag, but you have to be really good with FPSC and know how to streamline lag spots. Simply making a level jam-packed with detail won't cut it.



Click on the picture to order your copy today!
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Roger Wilco
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 01:28
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I would've taken a different approach by making seamless progression between levels instead of in one level. That'd make it not so easy to convert to multiplayer, though.

"Or perhaps we're just one of god's little jokes?"
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 23:52
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Quote: "I know what I'm talking about. So don't dismiss my posts as short sighted."


I'm not questioning your knowledge of the engine or credibility, merely suggesting that this might not be a development limitation going forward.

All of the current v106 FPSC updates (RC1-RC4) are stability / bug fixes, therefore a future performance focused update could help make this type of level design a more legitimate approach. I certainly don't think that it's foolish to try.

I haven't seen detailed specs for X10 but I'm sure we'll be able to import X9 maps and I doubt an X10 configuration is going to struggle with large maps.

Quote: "Simply making a level jam-packed with detail won't cut it"


I'd like to start learning how to create texture baked segments like Rolfy uses as he states he's getting a constant 30+ frames per second on his masterpiece which is insane. This would also overcome the issues with using normal maps with segments that haunt me so much. Lee's having a look into that after he's completed X10 so I'm still hopeful.

Quote: "I would've taken a different approach by making seamless progression between levels instead of in one level. That'd make it not so easy to convert to multiplayer, though."


Noted. At least this has demonstrated that maps can be made to be seamless. I've never tried taking on a multiplayer map before so this is new territory for me. I'm looking forward to it and hoping it's going to come along much quicker without the requirement for arduous AI testing etc. Although I'm sure there'll be plenty of other interesting challenges involved to keep me up half the night.
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brummel
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 00:21
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I hope that TGC will keep on updating FPSC long after the release of x10.

www.myspace.com/sculptednoise
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Airslide
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 02:08 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2007 21:57
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Quote: "
Well 'probably' sounds like a good enough reason to try."


Actually, my post is somewhat misinformative. As my equation makes use of infinity, your screen should never update. Ever


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Inspire
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 07:29
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Quote: "I'm not questioning your knowledge of the engine or credibility, merely suggesting that this might not be a development limitation going forward."
'

Then sorry about the misunderstanding.

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rolfy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 03:50 Edited at: 11th Jul 2007 03:50
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The use of texture baking in scenes is primarily an aesthetic one I just like the lights and shadows achievable in a top end modeler like Max.
The real frame rate saver is in the modeling,by creating most of the scenery using planes instead of boxes you can cut your poly count immensely.

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TZap
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Posted: 15th Jul 2007 16:24
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Looks good mate but the link has expired.
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Xsnip3rX
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 05:59
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"The real frame rate saver is in the modeling,by creating most of the scenery using planes instead of boxes you can cut your poly count immensely."
not to mention a far cleaner model (in both shape and polygon usage)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 18:59
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Quote: "Looks good mate but the link has expired."


Thanks for the comment and I've now registered with Filefront as the free registration with Yousendit doesn't seem to be up to all that much.

Thanks also to Rolfy and Xsnip3rX for the useful information regarding texture baking and modelling.

Here is new download link for the demo:

http://hosted.filefront.com/Nomad5oul

Best
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Game Maker
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 08:39
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Looks good!

Hi!
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lava man
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Posted: 10th Aug 2007 18:05
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i think it looks good a little slow but my computer a peice anyway
other then that really nice.
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Satchmo
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Posted: 11th Aug 2007 03:23
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The link is not there..

I like my sig.
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uman
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Posted: 11th Aug 2007 05:57 Edited at: 11th Aug 2007 06:00
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On the Lagg and framerate issue. It is quite possible for FPSC to accommodate highly detailed complex maps of the full world size containing both outdoor and indoor areas if you know how to optimise levels effectively. That does not mean you have to restrict unduely your level design but you may have to work hard to watch what FPSC sees (not what you see) at any one time at every location in your map and make adjustments as necessary using whatever optimisation techniques you can call upon. You can see what the engine sees in wireframe mode in test level.

The restriction FPSC has is limited to the number of enemies or characters you can successfully accommodate in your map and in view at any one time. The issue is AI related and is not an issue users can overcome. If your game would call for only one or two active characters in any location at any one time you should not have a problem, though the AI issue can be erratic in its effect. Some other Dynamic AI objects also have some issues but in general they can be worked around. e.g. Lifts can be a problem in large, complex, highly detailed maps with many AI calls to the engine.

Whatever you game level design optimisation is always going to be necessary if you want to push the boundaries of the product. To do that you have to be prepared to put in a lot of effort.

Character AI has a much greater impact on the engine than anything else. If you get an improvement or fix to the issue then that should free you to do what you will given that you may still have to optimise and give regard to the way FPSC compiles and renders any scene and the polygon counts it returns at any given location and view. That means that at any location in your map around a 360 degree radius one has to look to achieve a resonable poly count and fps return. Its unlikely that this engine will ever be efficient enough in its compile and scene rendering that you would be able to ignore that need.

Currently irrespective of your map size or complexity, AI activity can very quickly reduce your gameplay speed to unacceptable levels. One other note on AI and its impact. Erronous Character or other object AI scripts (and even models too) can cause havoc and have a serious knock on effect. FPSC as with most other engines does not react well to bad code (or models) in a level.

In the past in differing versions, the AI issue and its effects have varied on the impact on the result in game with varying degrees of severity. As far as the future goes and any improvement to that situation in any version of the engine we will all have to wait and see. There are no guarantees until something becomes a reality.




"There are those who said this day would never come - What have they to say Now?"
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TZap
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Posted: 11th Aug 2007 11:39
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Agree with the AI issue. I am designing a game where only 1-3 characters can be active and interacting with you at the same time. I've designed my levels in that you have to shoot them before the game will allow you to progess (shoot the characters to open a door or make a key appear for example) I am having some success so will let you know when the first level is ready.
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Stamina
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Here is a problem with the game that drops the framerate and creates serious lag,,,after you use the crate to get out of your cell, and you go to the next room, there is a window,,I took the crate with me the second try and tried to break the window,,it floated thru the window. Everytime I had that window in my view,,the lag went crazy. I dont know how you have the properties set for that window,but try and change it and see what happens to the lag and framerate. Also,,on a side note,,WHERE THE *(&)( IS THE KEY FOR THE NEXT DOOR???...lolol
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 20th Aug 2007 01:46
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Quote: "Looks good!"


Thanks.

Quote: "i think it looks good a little slow but my computer a peice anyway other then that really nice."


Cheers. I was pretty determined to get a seamless indoor / outdoor environment in there which was always the focus point of this demo.

Quote: "The link is not there.."


I always forget those damn links expire. It's up again now, I'll keep an eye on it.

Uman / Tzap - Thanks for the info. This was only really supposed to be a tech demo to show the environment potential of FPSC maps so in order to get the thing done, I made some performance trade offs during development which I would tackle differently in retrospect.

I'm working on a new demo which will be performance focused whilst still delivering an interesting environment to explore.

Quote: " I took the crate with me the second try and tried to break the window,,it floated thru the window. Everytime I had that window in my view,,the lag went crazy."


There's no glass in the 2nd window after you escape the cell. This was due to the lag issue. I took the glass out and messed around with the room a bunch but that lag spot remained.

Quote: "Also,,on a side note,,WHERE THE *(&)( IS THE KEY FOR THE NEXT DOOR???...lolol"


The key for the first locked door is on top of the barrel in the room with 2 ladders to climb with a guard at the top (stands next to the barrel).

Thanks to all for the positive comments regarding the general look and design of the map. I'm aware of the performance issues on the outdoor areas but I'd rather address these in a new game demo and just let people check this one out.

It'll be an interesting challenge to go for a near constant 33 frames per second for my current project but thats the plan.
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Advancement Games
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I can't get out of the first room, its retarded.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 21st Aug 2007 22:53
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Quote: "I can't get out of the first room, its retarded."


LOL

I've decided to refrain from using my initial comment which made a 'retarded' reference as this might have offended someone with a disability that can actually play first person shooters.

So this is how you spend your time when your not annoying people on the DBPro forums by posting vapourware threads which get locked because you can't ever produce any evidence that your work exists.

Although I was impressed and entertained how you managed to fill entire threads with excuses as to why you couldn't upload anything.

I also found some of your more recent comments quite interesting

Quote: "Hello again. This is the second to last message you will here from me. The projects I have made are real, and I have done some horrid things in the past. I am leaving the forums for 6 months to be forgoten. I am sorry for any trouble I have caused. I will keep contacts with people on GoogleTalk and MSN Messenger and show them my latest works, but I will no longer present my new work to the forums. I have been falsly accused, flamed at, stripped of any chance to have a good reputation, and otherwise. Good bye."


I've attached a screenshot which might help you out a bit

I suggest you post constructive criticism in peoples threads from now on if you don't want to turn another forum against you.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2007 00:09 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2007 00:10
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Quote: "I spent a bunch of time in the past explaining to people why FPSC is the best indie game development tool out there but I still see comments coming up on the forums questioning this.

Therefore I've gone ahead and developed a full level demo which demonstrates FPSC is capable of maps with counterstrike, unreal tournament quality."


I simply can't believe I'm reading this..... this game demonstrates FPSC is capable off: PRODUCING LOW FRAMERATES (even unacceptably low). I'm sorry to say so, but I really can't believe that after creating this you even believe what you've wrote yourself. Your demo gives us every right to question what you're trying to proof.

Your demo game confirms only one thing.... FPSC isn't even close to being the best indie game development tool out there. Is FPSC better then DBPro? No way, but both of them are indie game development tools.... Is FPSC better then Torque? No way, but both of them are indie game development tools.... Is FPSC better then 3D GameStudio A7.... not even close. FPSC is OK, but by far not the best indie game development tool out there.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2007 00:29
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Benjamin A.
What is your problem with FPSC?
The only thing i see when you post.(many posts)
Is that you are saying how much every other program is better then FPSC.

I was just wondering why?
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Benjamin A
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It's not my problem with fpsc, I've settled that.... it's OK as I stated, but to say it's the best indie game development tool out there..... even people who absolutely adore fpsc know that that's a bit far stretched.

I didn't say every other program is better, I know quite some engines that aren't near as good as fpsc, but I just had to comment to the original post.

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Airslide
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DBP is by far better in the long run than FPSC. FPSC has to be the easiest game dev tool out there though, surpassing even Game Maker. That doesn't mean it is the most efficient or expandable


Vote today and play the games!
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Benjamin A
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Now I can wholeheartedly agree with that, FPSC is the easiest game dev tool out there for sure. It's even easier then Klik & Play (if you're old enough to remember) and that was even easier to use then game maker.

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Inspire
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I love DBP. I love Game Maker. FPSC is decent, but I'm drifting farther away from it as I get more experienced with game dev.

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Airslide
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I only use it because it's fun to be able to just plop stuff in and see it come to life in a few minutes. Plus, it is much easier to design levels. But, for any serious game dev I use DBP or even Game Maker (for 2D things).


Vote today and play the games!
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Inspire
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2007 02:31
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Sorry for getting off topic, Nomad Soul.

@ Airslide: Did you see Almora Online on the Game Maker forums? I've seen you around there before...If you haven't seen it, check it out.

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