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3 Dimensional Chat / K-pist M09 (My new weapon)

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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 5th Oct 2008 11:23
Quote: "it looks fine, what is that kid smokin?"


Ehh...? What?


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meteorite
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Posted: 5th Oct 2008 18:36
Errant, your knowledge of weapons just scares me...

I love Jenkins forever :p
There is nothing to fear except fear itself... and FPSC bugs.
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 5th Oct 2008 18:40
Dumb question, does anyone know how to swith side of the joints in Milkshape? I have rigged on arm, but it semms that its the wrong side


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Jesusaurisrex
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Posted: 8th Oct 2008 08:29
looks fine to me

Fuzz
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Posted: 8th Oct 2008 08:38
That is awesome!

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/3228/fuzzbanneror1.jpg
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 8th Oct 2008 09:35
I havent had time to work on it, but now it got hands and it is in FPSC now. I know that the hand goes straigth trough the gun, I am going to fix it


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Alucard94
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Posted: 8th Oct 2008 20:17
Whoa those walls are shiny!
Looking quite good. I could critique on the mesh itself but since you said that it was your first and the fact that I UV Mapped I'll keep my mouth shut.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
tjaabee
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Posted: 8th Oct 2008 20:37
Looks nice in-game!

Best.

GIMME COKE!
Jesusaurisrex
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Posted: 9th Oct 2008 00:58
omg i made two posts without even knowing it had a second page lol. sorry. looks fantastic

Cyborg ART
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Posted: 9th Oct 2008 18:39
Thanks!

And Alucard, please tell me


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Alucard94
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Posted: 9th Oct 2008 19:40
Okay, you asked for it.

Well I found some areas when Unwrapping your model that not only made it hard to unwrap but looked very strange, places that have the T shaped faces (Basically more than 2 faces sharing an edge) is a big no no in my opinion, and I say that you had a lot of it in the places where you had indentions.

The Silencer (And a lot of other cylinders on the model) has a bit too many divisions and a edge loop that seems completely unnecessary, and in the hole thingy in the handle of your model (Where your hand's supposed to be) you don't need that many edges to make it round, since the hand will be there it will barely show if it's round or not hence making it stupid to have that many edges in there.
Also I don't really think you would need that sort of geometry for the hole at the top of the gun since this gun seems to be meant for an FPSC it will barely be shown, and can either be made with less edges and no detail inside of it or with just the texture to save polygons.
Also the little thing in front of the trigger guard is really unnecessary since it barely will be shown in first person view.

There are a few more but I think that I got the point I wanted to make, and I wouldn't advice Milkshape as a main modeling software, since it can only handle triangles which make mesh handling a bit more troublesome, Milkshape is really more meant for animations and such, if you want a good modeler I'd either suggest Blender or Wings, or if you have some cash Cinema 4D or Lightwave.


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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 9th Oct 2008 21:50
Thanks Alucard, thats great comments. I know that the model got a little bit weird, but I am learning


My animation, not done yet, Just had to show it


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Alucard94
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Posted: 9th Oct 2008 22:13
I like the animation!


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Jesusaurisrex
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Posted: 10th Oct 2008 00:13
nice! just a quick off topic question though, how did you make that screen gif?

Cyborg ART
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Posted: 10th Oct 2008 20:04
Thanks!

I rapidly pressed the F12 key (screenshot in FPSC) and got 25 pics wich I scaled down and added as seperate layers in one file. Then I saved it in .gif.


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tjaabee
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Posted: 10th Oct 2008 21:43
Looks very good.

Best.

GIMME COKE!
Fuzz
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 08:16
Nice

Victory is imminent

Out Break Games
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 13:15
Thank you!

Does anyone know a place were I could get high quality gunsounds?


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Deathead
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 17:24
I would lower the position of the gun.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
Aertic
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 18:09
Quote: "Does anyone know a place were I could get high quality gunsounds?"

http://www.fpsbanana.com/sounds
You can use most of the sounds there, look at the description of the sound file, it may give out a copyright of sorts, but you can use most of the sounds there that are 100% custom.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-'Butterfingers'
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 18:31
Quote: "I would lower the position of the gun.
"


Will do.

Quote: "Quote: "Does anyone know a place were I could get high quality gunsounds?"
http://www.fpsbanana.com/sounds
You can use most of the sounds there, look at the description of the sound file, it may give out a copyright of sorts, but you can use most of the sounds there that are 100% custom.
"


I actually found some great ones in the Music and FX area in this Forum


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 00:14
Good work! It's a great start, but I offer some points of critique.

You did a good job of defining the shape and the details, but the geometry is needing some work. The surface flow on a beginner WIP model is usually the first thing that is off. It's a tough thing to get the hang of, because technically it works, but it's bad practice.

Do you see the different between your model and these?




Besides the level of detail being different, the way their surface flows is much better. Take specific notice on how they did their hole in the gun. I've highlighted the places where I think your model needs work.



Basically, you'll need to start over if you wanted to do this right. And out of curiosity, what modeler are you using? Does it always show models as polygons or is there an option to work in quads? I think quads are easier to work with IMO, less lines to confuse you, and you can convert them to polygons later anyway.

I'm kind of surprised no one here called you out on this sooner. Pats on the back are nice, but in order to improve, critique is needed. Welcome to the real world

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 08:45
Thanks Sid! I see what you mean. But I am not used to do FPS weapons I use Milkshape for this, its kind of basic but it does the job. Maybe I will have to invest in a new software. Milkshape cant do quads what I know...

Its some nice models you got there


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 10:41
Oh, those aren't my models. I pulled those from examples I found online to show you what I meant.

I recommend taking a good look at Blender. It's free, and it's really good for what it does. If you have doubts on what it can do, take a look at Big Buck Bunny.

You don't necessarily need quads to do what achieve good surface flow, but for me, it makes it easier. I think it's just because there are less lines, who knows lol.

By the looks of it, you used a boolean right? To make that whole? If you did, a word of caution, boolean subtraction usually sucks. Even in 3DSM in causes results like the ones you got to happen. There are a few ways you could have gotten around that, but I'll let you brain storm a creative solution

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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 17:30
Blender seems too complicated

What is boolean?


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Alucard94
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 18:00
Quote: "Blender seems too complicated
"

That's what you might think, but as you said, it seems more complicated, for me, it's really not, it is as of right now one of the best (Feature wise, it obviously just comes down to personal preference in the end, but feature wise yeah.) free softwares out there, try blender, look at a whole bunch of tutorials and after a few weeks/days you'll probably know it like the back of your hand.
I thought that Blender was to complicated but then I watched and read some tutorials on the subject and BAM, in about one week or so I got Blender.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 18:37
Blender is not complicated, it's just different from Milkshape. Milkshape has only a handful of features and options. Blender is a full 3D Suite. It's much more complete. Buy a book on blender that has good reviews off of Amazon or something, or go through a few beginner tutorials. It's worth the effort.

The Boolean modifier in 3DSM create a union, intersection, cut or subtraction between different objects. If you used subtraction with two different shapes, for example a long cylinder that is running through a cube, it would create a circular hole through the cube. Milkshape probably has something similiar.

I asked because usually boolean modifiers frak up the geometry and leave the wireframe all jacked up like yours is around the outside of the hole.

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Accoun
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 18:40
Quote: "What is boolean?"

Operations on model like adding, subtraction, common part (? not sure how it's in english)...

Make games, not war.

Errant AI
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 19:49
Quote: "Basically, you'll need to start over if you wanted to do this right"


Meh. The model is not so bad. Sure there are some edges flipped around the wrong way and several areas which ought to be optimised and some strategically places subdivisions to be made to get rid of some of those really long/awkward tris but although cleanup would only take a couple minutes in 3DS or something, I'm guessing it would take a lot longer in MS3D. It could be reduced by 20-30% without noticeable change, IMO.

If it's going into FPSC, which triangulates everything anyway, what's the point in being obsessive about quads? You only need to worry about quads if your deforming the mesh or your need to run turbosmooth or something for a high resolution version. If you're putting the model in a sophisticated GPU which can process geometry strips then yes you want quads but vertex ordering and UVs become just as important and that's where single-skin nurbs patch modeling like that scifi pistol W-F come in.

The thing that bugs me are the FPSC shader shortcomings with HUD weapons. If you really want normal maps, you should re-UV both the pistol and the arm to share the same map. Otherwise you're going to have what you have there, which is the gun normal map applied to the arm which just looks terrible.
Cyborg ART
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 20:07
I will have to give Blender another chance then

Milkshape has´nt any Boolean, I made the hole on the side by extruding, and I made the hole in the sigth by removing the faces on the front and back of a cylinder, then I made another cylinder and did the same, then I fliped it inside out and built them together with faces.


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lazerus
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 20:32
it loos sorta gritty because of the fpsc engine but that cant be helped lol

lookin good

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 21:41
Quote: "If it's going into FPSC, which triangulates everything anyway, what's the point in being obsessive about quads? You only need to worry about quads if your deforming the mesh or your need to run turbosmooth or something for a high resolution version."


What? The point is it's the correct way to model. Tell any 3D Graphic artist who does this for a living that it doesn't matter, and they'd probably laugh at you. I don't use FPSC, therefor I can't claim to know this for a fact, but I don't know of any game engine that would fix the modelers bad geometry.

I think what you meant when you said the FPSC engine redoes the geometry is that if you were working in quads, it turns them into poly's. Then yes, that would be true. But if you do a crappy job modeling your model, it's not going to fix that just because all the vertex's are in the right spot. It's not going to magically correct all your edges so that it's optimized. It's important to have good surface flow for many reasons.

Yes, quads make it easier if your deforming the model... which you do a lot of in modeling... It does make it easier for smoothing too, like you said, because it's bicubic. But it also makes it easier, IMHO, when working with your mesh and making adjustments. The pro's outweigh the cons as far as I'm concerned with working with quads instead of poly's.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Alucard94
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 21:53
Well Sid I don't think that that's such a fair argument since he's using Milkshape, which only supports tri's.
But yes, I think that in general for anything organic or something that will deform you should definitely model with all, or most, quads, since not only is it good practice but obviously helps deforming the model.
If you're modeling something that isn't going to deform, like a gun, the need for quads gets less needed, since it really isn't going to matter too much, but as Sid said, I think that you should model that way anyways since really, it's a good way to model, it makes the edge flow "look" a lot better, and is very good practice for the modeler him/herself.
And besides, it always depends on what you're using the model itself for, I mean, if you're for example using FPSC it should really be fine to keep the sort of edge flow that BVG has right now, since it works for him and makes it possible for animation, while in other engines or whatever you're putting it in there might be a higher demand on good edge flow than anywhere else.

Also if you plan to work as a 3D designer you're most likely going to work under somebody who'll give you assignments, which will probably require certain things, like for example if your boss asks you to make a fairly "Next-gen" weapon with 3000-6000 polygons he'll most likely want it to be in most quads.

There is one good thing about having only triangles though, that being that there is really quite difficult to get non planar faces and alike with triangles, while with quads it's really easy.

One of the big issues with modeling in something like Milkshape, that only supports tri's, is that it's very hard to maintain a good topology since it's very easy to just go crazy with T-Faces and such, which is why Milkshape is really more meant as an easy, cheap animator than anything else.


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mastercheif 193
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Posted: 14th Oct 2008 01:51
Looks great BVG. Finished product is going to be awsome.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Oct 2008 04:47
Quote: "Well Sid I don't think that that's such a fair argument since he's using Milkshape, which only supports tri's."


It wasn't really an argument, it was my opinion. But you did a good job of wrapping it up

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 14th Oct 2008 21:02
Quote: "Looks great BVG. Finished product is going to be awsome."

Thank you!

Quote: "But you did a good job of wrapping it up "

Yeas, its a really good UV Map you did for me. Thanks again!


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Splash down
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 00:31 Edited at: 16th Oct 2008 00:32
edit- posted to wrong page

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Splash down
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 00:31
nice render, btw

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 06:27 Edited at: 16th Oct 2008 06:27
I talked to my Animation professor tonight about the importance of good surface flow/topology. In addition to what I had already said about it making smoothing better (especially with quads), he also said that when you animate your model, especially with characters, the geometry stretches. If you have good topology, things will move in a more predictable way.

Just thought I would pass that along.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 16:18
Do you have an Animation Professor? Cool.
And thanks.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 19:24
Yessir Pretty soon you'll start to see a lot of my work on the forums.

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