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Work in Progress / Bushido Shuffle (56K warning, and....it's quite violent...)

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Butter fingers
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2010 03:04
Dang HC, thanks for the analysis!
Ok, first off you score a million points because you're the 100th post!

anyway.

Quote: "1) I noticed when the main character was running his clothes made a ruffling noise. , maybe you should make it lower in volume."


Thanks, but weirdly, when I watched the video on you tube and wasn't actually playing I suddenly realised how loud the fabric is! It's now about 80% quieter. Which is actually much better..

Quote: " the main character goes from idle > Full speed without hesitation. "

You're right, and it is at the top of the TO DO list. It's one of those things that should have been done at the start but I pussyed out, and now it's haunting me. It'll mean changing a fair whack of the movement code so that forward momentum is carried between movement states, but balanced so you don't lose speed on wall bounces etc.

Quote: "Small thing here, when the enemies were dying, sometimes they shouted something like "Get him!"

Yes indeed. The speech bubbles are a new addition, and I'm yet to implement things like death shouts and other text, so for now it uses the angry text for everything... which ... does ...look...dumb. The speech bubble system will grow with the game, so it's going to be a little ropey for a while!

Quote: "Instantly decapitating enemies is awesome. Please don't change that because it's the coolest thing about the game"


Yeah, I don't want to sound arrogant, but it is a pretty "im a ninja" feeling when you do a flawless 3 kill combo. With the new fighting system it really is alot more about skill than just key mashing too, so pulling of the instant kills etc is much more satisfying!

Quote: "The stuff about the corridoors"

I know, I know and it's a really tough design challenge. If you watch the video again you'll see that although the textures are varied, certain types of black space are always solid. I'm thinking of adding a button you can press to get a "hint" route, this will show you paths up walls and things like buildings you can climb through.

Quote: "These would be very hard to see, though, if you didn't keep the pink backdrop, which I like very well."

Yay! Im keeping the color backdrop definately. And each level will have a different color theme.

Quote: "I noticed that you'd just stand still for a second and they'd start hacking and slashing midair until interrupted by a katana to the face. This is alright during the beginning levels, I think, but the ninjas will be far more precise with their attacks, right?"


Ok, yes. The thing is I'm trying to do something a little more original that the average hack and slash, so, in Bushido it's not always best to go in slashing! Your character is very weak, and so you are better to open with a counter attack (because your enemy is most vulnerable when striking). Once you have countered and they are stumbling you are then better positioned to start your combo.
This said, I am of course intending to improve the way that the enemies attack! and yeah, the ninjas and other later enemies will definately be harder, or their attacks will require quicker reactions to block.

The camera thing is my favourite change to the game. Making it totally flat was the best change I've made to it. It's going back to the games I loved as a teenager - like shinobi, ninja gaiden and master of darkness... Yes the camera will be manual, and I'm putting some fun modes in there, like super zoom, where the camera is miles back and it looks like a wicked skyline that you're jumping along (but it's impossible to see the attacks!)

8) No sweat, I've been working on this of the best part of a year, and now I have other people working on it, it's getting finished.
Thanks for the feedback, it's helped to focus what some of my next updates will be.
J









[quote]

I want robotic legs.
Plotinus
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Posted: 24th Feb 2010 10:37
I love everything about this!

Colour background: looks great. No doubt you would have different colours on different levels, including plain white.

Speech balloons: also great. However, while I like the way they appear by growing, I don't like the way they disappear by shrinking in the same way. It would be better if they stay full-size and then dissolve or fade or something like that. I also agree with the point about ensuring that the message matches what's going on - e.g. a lone enemy shouldn't be shouting "Get him!". It would be good if the enemies could say something appropriate if they have just hit you, or hit you several times, or if they have just watched you kill another enemy, or if you are mashing them up... you get the idea. (Although I wouldn't over-use the speech balloons - I think having them appear only sometimes in these various situations would make them more striking.) It would be funny if a speech balloon appeared on a severed head as it flies across the screen.

Jumping energy/puzzles: excellent, sounds exactly right.

Turning in mid-air: ever since the 8-bit era, platform games have been divided between those that allow you to change direction while in mid-jump, and those that determine the whole jump at the moment of take-off, so you cannot choose. The latter are more realistic but the former are far more fun and playable. I think in a game like this, with this kind of setting, definitely go for the former.
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 26th Feb 2010 17:31
From the video, game is VERY impressive, I'm loving the super minimalism, and the difficulty.

My main crits are that he seems to move slowly, I'd like to see the animations (particularly ones in the air) speed up, even if only a little. It still looks a bit slow motion. Then with the buildings, It's hard to tell which ones you can jump into. If it's ever supposed to be a secret, that's great, but I think you need to make it clearer where you can enter, by making the indent in the building where you can go through bigger. Finally, While often if looked necessary, the camera was reaaaaally far out a lot. Could you make it so it always zooms in for combat? There was that one time you got a great close up, and I don't always mean THAT close, but closer. I don't think you should ever be fully zoomed out for combat. Combat and platforming are two distinct parts, even if somethings they relate. The combat camera should always be different than the plaforming camera. It helps the player mentally really get a grip of what they're doing, and zoomed in cameras are intense.

Maybe at some points, you could have the game get a bit 3D? hmm... no, I guess you don't really need to. AH! Have you considered sometimes making the background change from white to other colors? Like what if you are near death, and the scene starts getting red. Big obvious warning, and freaks the player about a bit with the thought (I'M DYING!!)

Anyways, great work! FINISH THIS ONE!!!!!!! This is totally within your abilities and time frame, and looks very playable and awesome. Even if you have to put it on the burner for some reason, make sure you finish this one.

Butter fingers
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 02:30
Hey BG,

Thanks for the awesome crits, on both threads.

The first thing on my mind is that you mention only having a white background... but in the latest video it's color. No biggie.

Anyway, with regard to showing player damage, the health system is only temporary right now, and will be more about blood loss than hit points, so the player will bleed more profusely when hurt.

With regard to color, I'm very wary of not overstepping my self imposed limit of black and white (NO GREY!!!!!), I think the color backdrop was neccessary, and each level will have a different palette, to give it a unique feel.

Agreed on the jump animation speeds. And since the last video it has changed. Infact the whole air movement engine has changed. YOU NOW HAVE MOMENTUM. HURRAH! so running affects the distance you can jump. It makes the platforming much harder, but much more real too, and more challenging, so I'm happy about that. The animation speeds have changed accordingly. With regard to speed, do remember that my aged PC loses about 10 FPS when recording, so everything is a little slower because of that...

Your comments on the camera are well founded, and timely too, as I've been having a dilemma with it as what I originally designed is not right anymore.
The far zoom is perfect for platforming, and is actually alot clearer (and bigger) than youtube would have you believe. At the moment the camera only zooms in when you're in slomo, which I thought made sense, but now I'm thinking that all combat should be say 50% closer than the platform cam, then use the same 25% distance for slomo. For dev I've also got a "manual" mode, which is pretty cool , and I'll leave it in, because then if you don't like the dynamic one you can fix it at any distance you like.

Entrances to buildings, I know... it's a tough one though. I'm determined not to use color. I'm thinking of having a dotted ------ black line instead of a solid one for walls that you can move through.

With regard to finishing... this is NOT a big project. I'm not doing this one solo (Kris is doing the art side), and we're collaborating on the story. We're aiming to just do 1 chapter (3 levels) , and see what people think. If it's not well recieved we'll stop, and if it is, then we might do more!!
I'm really happy with the "world" of bushido though. Its actually a fun game to make, and to explore the gameplay possibilities of. I've been making this for almost a year, it's not going anywhere, if anything, Kris working on it, and bringing his art style and story ideas has made it a bigger thing, and one I'm much more insterested in seeming through to it's conclusion!

Cheers for the crit, it certainly help to highlight alot of stuff.
Best
J

I want robotic legs.
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 27th Feb 2010 21:59
Sorry about the color thing, I watched the vid a while ago, forgot.

Overall sounds pretty good! I like the dotted idea for the walls you can go through. The more realistic jumping I'm a fan of, I've tried it myself in some platform demos I did for fun. Important to note is that if you make the jumping more realistic, so should be the obstacles the player has to overcome. Don't make the game overly difficult by expecting the player to do everything perfectly, unless you're going with the mega man approach to things.

Well, it sounds good. Very excited for the next vid and eventual release of the first chapter!

Inspire
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 05:29
A couple quick ideas that came to me while watching (I'm typing quick because a show I'm gonna watch starts in 5 minutes):

- I'm not sure if you have this already, or if somebody mentioned it, so feel free to ignore it, but is there a delay on the camera? Because having it constantly moving with your every move seems annoying.

- The slow motion kills were glorious. That's not a suggestion, just a statement.

- The gradient background was nice, but too timid. The color was like peachy and not samurai-ish. I think the color should be richer. Maybe have the sounds coincide with the color, so maybe that even if you aren't showing it, have it present. Like, red, you would hear birds chirping because its dawn. Blue, ocean waves, seagulls. Green, various foresty sounds that I can't think of at the moment. Don't have these things too loud, but it could be a cool effect.

- I can totally see the music being chill like in your tech demo videos, but with a little samurai flair. Generic samurai music wouldn't fit this stylized game, so I'd probably remix some samurai music with ambient glitch beats or something to that effect.

- I'm in love with this game. Also a statement.

Plotinus
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 11:04
One additional suggestion that came to me: what about levels with varied terrain? I mean instead of a flat ground with buildings, you could have hills, mountains, cliffs etc. That would have a lot of potential for nice stylised levels - imagine rocky crags with trees on top, or a mountainside leading up to some kind of temple full of monks to fight. Or something like that.

I also really like Inspire's idea of ambient sounds changing to match the background colour.
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 21:36
Just posting to say that the more I see of this, the more enthusiastic I get! I'm very impressed with the whole project, both the technical and artistic aspects of it.

I also like the idea of ambient sounds complementing the colour scheme, but with such a carefully crafted style you may find that, in the end, it's better to leave them out. It might be an idea to experiment and see if it enhances the experience.

Secretary of Unknowable Knowledge for the Rock/Dink administration '08
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 28th Feb 2010 22:21
I think the music is fine, very Samurai Champloo

Plotinus
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Posted: 11th Mar 2010 10:47
I'm just bumping this to find out how things are going. How are things going?
lightpunk
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Posted: 12th Mar 2010 13:10
Hey there,

Butterfingers is away snowboarding this week, so I'm going to reply in his absence!

All is well in the land of Bushido: we're working really hard on this, and it's really coming together. For the past couple weeks we've been working on finalising the overall format for 'Episode 1', which now has 3 game levels, with comic book cut scenes in between each level as well as intro and outro scenes. The idea is it's a self-contained episode in itself but also sets up some storylines for an ongoing series. We've finished writing the script for the comic book sections and I'm now busy drawing these whilst butters works on the levels.

Just want to say thanks to everyone on here who is showing this project so much love! We're both very excited about it and are looking forward to getting it finished, which we hope will be around end of May I reckon...

Cheers

Kris

www.lightpunk.com
Mazz426
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 12:10
i just saw the new video on youtube, and its looking good, really good! i've already left this comment on youtube but eh, i was impressed with the new interface, the new relevant structures, no longer tower blocks, its now more of a japanese style house, one comment someone got confused and thought that the music in the video was the acctual game music, they were right when they said it fit, you should mabey take some time to make a japanese style soundtrack

Butter fingers
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 13:43
Hey Mazz,

Thanks, yeah I'm working on putting together a soundtrack for the game that fits. Some classical japanese stuff and also some funk and some remixes of classical tunes.

I'm sorry for the lack of posts here. Alot has been added since the last update, probably too much to name here, but I've made some key updates:

Propper HUDS, so you can see combo, chi meter, ninja meter and health.

With the combat I've added 6 new combo moves, bringing the total of available (non special) attacks to 18. This means there are an awful lot of standard moves that you can use to create your combos.

Thereare a few flashes ofit on the video, but now there is this funky freezeframe effect if you land a perfect hit, looks very cool, and is really satisfying if you land a few perfect chops in a row.

I'm still having some major bugs with the collision engine, but I'm working them out gradually.

My next updates are focussing around the editor and the game world, so I'll be adding the ability to put moving objects and animated objects into the editor. This should add alot more options for platform gameplay.

At the moment the game has to be reset between levels, so I have the nightmarish task of writing a kill-function that will delete all the level media and reset variables. Once I have this working I can add a menu system and then I'll be ALOT closer to finishing.

Anyway, here's a link to the new video... let me know what you think!!

I want robotic legs.
Diggsey
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Posted: 4th Apr 2010 18:16
What about a move where you first jump in the air, then when you press the key to do the move, you stop in middair, and when you release it you drop straight down with the sword pointing down. The longer you hold it (up to a point) the more powerful it is but the enemies have more time to move out the way.

I definitely think you need some more moves to do when in the air anyway (unless you already have them but just didn't show them?).

Compared to how amazing the game is these are just minor points but I thought I may as well suggest them

Plotinus
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 12:10
The slo-mo frame effect looks amazing!

Great stuff all round. The only thing I didn't like was the "stepped" appearance of the terrain in the countryside level - I think it would look better with a natural slope (as I suggested a few posts ago). The buildings look great and the clouds add a lot to it too.
bergice
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 14:59
I really really enjoyed this!!!

Give it a storyline!!!

A good game designer can make all the diff-erence in the world mister freeman
Butter fingers
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 15:05
Quote: "I definitely think you need some more moves to do when in the air anyway (unless you already have them but just didn't show them?)."


haha, I good suggestion, and one I haven't implemented...yet. I'm kind of devided on letting the player do air moves. At the moment there aren't any flying enemies, so they wouldn't be that useful, and I kinda think that jumping attacks can be a bit of an "easy way out" for the player when fighting harder enemies.
I would say they are a definite possibility, but due to the amount of time (and care) I'm putting into every frame of animation, air moves will be a big commitment, as there will need to be at least 6 attacks for it to fit with the rest of the combo system.
Thanks for the encouragement though, and don't think I'm side lining this idea, all this stuff is taken on board and put down in the User Suggestions section of the design doc!

Quote: "The slo-mo frame effect looks amazing!"

Aah, thanks! Its there all the time, to add a bit of smoothing to the whole thing, but it's more prominent in slo-mo.

Quote: "The only thing I didn't like was the "stepped" appearance of the terrain in the countryside level"

You're totally right. I'm having some problems with slopes though. Not with collision, but when fighting on a slope the whole mid/high/low attack system is a bit weird because you and your opponent are at different heights. Again, I'll try and sort it out and get slopes in there!

Quote: "I really really enjoyed this!!!
Give it a storyline!!!"

Good! It already has a story... a pretty detailed one.. I'll post below..

I want robotic legs.
Butter fingers
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 15:19
PROLOGUE:

Kenshi was the greatest samurai in all Japan. He led the Takeda clan to victory against The Legion of 1000 Demons, severed the head of the Ung Swamp Bile Demon and was generally considered an all-round dude.
But the power went to his head.
Sneaking into the house of Izunagi, the master God, Kenshi tried to steal the potion of eternal life. Unfortunately for Kenshi he collected the wrong vase, and instead of the potion for eternal life, Kenshi stole one of Izunagi's Oceans (one that he didn't use when he made the world, so he bottled it up).
Of course, when Kenshi returned to the real world and opened the potion, the ocean spilled out and flooded most of his world.
Now, Izunagi was suitably pissed that his world had been flooded, but at the same time, he saw that Kenshi was a skilled and devious human, and so, instead of killing Kenshi, Izunagi makes a deal.
He takes Kenshi's sense of Compassion, his love, and his kindness.

Kenshi can re-earn these parts of his soul by completing tasks for Izunagi.

Izunagi is a shrewd man, and sees a business opportunity in his newly flooded land. He names the land "the Floating Isle" and hides it from the rest of the world. Here he offers other Gods and demons the opportunity to come and bet on the behaviour of the humans living on the island, with Kenshi making sure that "the house always wins".

So, you pick up at this point, completing various missions for Izunagi on the floating Isle. Each mission for Izunagi forms around 3 levels and 1 chapter in the story. There is obviously the over-arching story line of trying to get your soul back, and appearances from other lead characters such as Udon (the retarded rice farmer).

I want robotic legs.
Mazz426
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 16:03
very interesting story

Fallout3fan
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 18:47
I really love your game peanut butters, Its so freaking cool, but is it all right if I can pitch in the story just a tiny bit PLEASE!!!

----|I_/-..
----|o_\-*
Mhmyess....
Hassan
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 20:49
peanut butters?
lol

Gunn3r
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2010 19:24
It's looking fantastic, and the style is perfect. Watching the last video, I think it might zoom out just a pinch too far when platforming. It seems like it's going to show you the entire level, and you just become a small little speck on it. The zoom levels for everything else are perfect, though.
The only other thing that might be worth looking into, and this is just out of personal preference, so if it doesn't seem this way to you, don't bother, but the animation that's played when you get hit. He stumbles back a bit, and it seems to take a little bit too long to get ready to fight again. The animation is really smooth, but it just seems like it's a bit too long for a game of this style.

Everything else looks fantastic. I really can't wait to play the 3 levels that you're planning on releasing, and I really hope you continue this past there.

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 8th May 2010 23:49
so, what joo been you to for the past month, pb?

Butter fingers
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Posted: 31st May 2010 21:03 Edited at: 31st May 2010 21:41
YES...A DEMO! BUT READ THIS POST BEFORE YOU DOWNLOAD DANG YOU! OR I'LL SPEND MY TIME REPEATING MYSELF IN THE NEXT 50 POSTS!

Alright TGC community, here it is. I've worked almost 65 hours on this, this weekend to get it done.. and I now have something which I'm happy to put out there for you to try.

This is not to say the game is ANYWHERE near complete, it's just that some other recent releases have inspired me to get on with this and get it out there!

SO, what is in this delightful new update?

Well. Due to Kris' busyness, there is still no story. Infact the levels in this version are just the 4 levels I've been using to test it, as well as the DOJO level I have used to test the fighting. Still, there is alot to play. Not to mention the entire menu system, and level loading and all that.

BUT! And this is really important:

Other than my flatmate, you guys are the first people to play this, so PLEASE be gentle. I EXPECT this demo to be FULL of bugs, and rather than recieve feedback along the lines of "this sucks", if you come across bugs, please let me know so I can fix them.

Effectively you're playing a slightly polished engine ALPHA.

TBH, nothing scares me more than putting out 1 year's hard work for everyone to rip appart. You don't have to be lovely about the game if you hate it, but please bear in mind that I've spent ALOT of my life working on this, so if you're going to crit, do it with some tact, and be polite...!

There are some VERY serious known bugs. Please bear them in mind:

-Collision is sketchy on some jumps. if you hit a platform at waist height, you'll fall through it. you can end up falling into the level

-Lag. The game gets pretty choppy if you don't kill all the baddies as you go. running past all the enemies will the game up. so get killing (I'll fix this soon).

-Some hud elements dont disapear when they should.

-Some animations loop when the game is paused.

-if you kill a baddy and he falls off a ledge, things sometimes get a bit again, I'll fix this soon.

-Enemy AI is still a bit sucky.... scratch that... very sucky...I've written better AI systems for HATE since I started this,and will very soon port over the better AI to this, but for the minute they do run on the spot, and generally look a little retarded... sorry.

The game is totally untested on VISTA. although it has been played on XP and 7(with DX9.0c) and its fine. Runs at around 40FPS the whole time. It's been tested on :

Win7
Quad core
4GB ram
Nvidia 9900
1280x800

XP
AMD Athlon somethingorother.
2GB Ram
Nvidia 8600
1024x768

XP
Intel Centrino Duo
2GB Ram
Nvidia 8400
1280x800


There are probably loads of bugs I don't know about, but do let me know.


I do intend to add more enemies, but with the amount of animation, each enemy takes about a week to make, so just live with the ones in there for a minute, and there'll be more in the final version.

So, off you go and have fun, and remember I'm not competing with your Xbox or PS3. It's just me in my room, trying to make something cool.

DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO
DL: http://rapidshare.com/files/393719200/Bushido_Shuffle_May_Demo.zip.html

or just click here
DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO

Oh... I tried to make a bit of a tutorial level, but there are some controls that aren't mentioned...

ZXC to attack.
UP key and ZXC to do power attacks.
if you get knocked backwards, repeatedly press ZXorC to do a counter attack (this is cool).

I want robotic legs.
Plystire
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Posted: 31st May 2010 22:41 Edited at: 31st May 2010 23:42
(Read your entire post, will keep those in mind. )

Waiting for download to commence and will edit when I've had a bit of time to play it and generate some decent feedback.

[EDIT]

Okay, had a go with the game and here are my thoughts.

It has a lot of potential to be a truly great game, but some of the polish just isn't there. I know you're going to replace the AI and that's good, because once you get used to them it's not much of a challenge anymore fighting them.

The jumps and overall platforming was well-done, but I found some spots that were just frustrating to get through. One of them required you to wall-jump a couple times to reach landings that were placed throught a vertical shaft. This was frustrating and getting out of the pit after falling was a chore in and of itself. In level 3, however, I just flat out gave up on getting up one of the shafts. I don't know if your Chi plays any sort of role alongside the ninja gauge for wall stunts, but I had about half of my chi left (It was completely gone earlier in the level), but the shaft just seemed to be too high. I tried wall-jumping all the way up, that didn't work. I tried doing height boosts to get up, and that didn't get me as high as wall-jumping did. I tried walljumping up until I had only one jump left, where I would then use a jump boost to get some extra height and would fall just short of the platform...

The wall stunts don't seem to be very well balanced. I discovered that using height boosting jumps was vastly better than simply running up the wall. Running up the wall doesn't get you very high, as the ninja meter shrinks almost immediately after you start doing the run. (I'm curious, though... does you initial running speed play into how far up the wall you can run?)

The chi was a good idea, but could be fleshed out a bit more to make it essential for those tight combat situations. Slowing down time only gives the player one real bonus, and that's the ability to think about things while watching them play out, whereas they would normally not have any time during the fight to really think about their next move (without planning it out ahead of time, that is). But during the chi-time, it didn't seem like there was much use, since your attacks had little impact on strategy. It was either you attack and score a hit, or you attack and got hit instead (whereupon you would counterattack). The game feels like it should be a hack'n'slash genre, but the satisfying feeling of hacking through loads of enemies doesn't seem to be there.

The menus were very nice, I liked how they were done. Your wording for the menu choices wasn't entirely clear for me at first, though. When I paused during my time in the dojo (wanting to go play the real game) I thought selecting "Play" would take me to the real game, it didn't immediately register with me that it would just close the pause menu. Lol

I'm not sure how to gain chi during the game. It regenerated very slowly and I wasn't quite sure if there was a means to speed things up for it.

The instant kills were a nice touch, but I found that I was using them for almost every engagement with the enemy. I would much rather kill them in one hit than have to slash them a load of times before they died. Is there a benefit to killing enemies with normal attacks over killing enemies with the one-hit kill?


Alright, that's about all of the feedback I can come up with for now. I hope you don't think I'm ragging on your game or anything. I'm just giving you as much feedback as I can to help you make it better.

All in all, I loved playing it, but felt a bit aggravated when those hard jumps came into play. I hope you keep up the good work!

[/EDIT]


The one and only,


Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 00:21
rah! Thanks for the feedback dude, and no, I don't feel you were ragging on the game at all. Like I said, the levels are just a tester really so knowing that it's a nightmare on some bits is cool. I probably pitched some of it a little hard..

Your comments on platforming...

You can do 4 wall jumps before you have to touch the floor, but only 1 wall run. so you can do 4 wall jumps then run, then jump out of it...

Z and C do gain you more height, but you can't do as many of them.

The platforming elements are all there, but you're right, they need refining onto a better system. It's good to get feedback on them.

I know that pit in 3 is a total keyboard smasher.. there should be spikes to just kill you and send you back.. but I didn't put any in..duh.

Oh, and Chi is only for combat... doesn't help at all with jumping...

Comments on combat

right.. ah..

Chi is only for combat. it regenerates a little for every hit you score without using instant kills.

Yes, instant kills are too easy now, but later enemies will be faster/stronger and harder to kill with this technique.

right, why is chi in there... it's complicated. I didn't mention this anywhere because I wanted to see if people noticed. I probably should have.

if you do a mid attack as an enemy does a mid attack (or high, or low) you will automatically parry their attack, and leave them open for you to hit. this is why chi is cool, because you can see their attacks coming.
I'm working on a nice way of pre-telling the player what the next attack is, but it's not there yet.

you are right, the AI sucks, but I think once there are more enemies in there it will be a bit more varied.

combos are better than instant kills because if you combo higher than 5 you will start to do instant kills automatically..

thanks very much for the comprehensive feedback. As I said, the reason I'm putting this out there is because I feel that right now, all the elements are there, but the gameplay is really unbalanced. I need people to play it and get pissed off, so I can see where the game gets frustrating...

so cheers for the comments. I would have been gutted by your comments were it not for the fact that you said you did enjoy playing it!

oh, and glad you liked the menus... helvetica saves the day again..!

I want robotic legs.
baxslash
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 00:43
Sex, drugs & helvetica bold!

Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 01:19
um... yes?

I want robotic legs.
Plystire
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 02:41
Alright, good to know about the chi regaining after combos. I thought it must have been something like that because earlier in the game (while playing with each type of combat mechanic) I noticed that chi came back fast, but in level 3 (when I was instant killing guys all the time) chi just wasn't coming back at the same rate.

I'm not sure if you already do something like this, but perhaps for combat you can have a sort of rock/paper/scissors thing going on, where the combatants gain an advantage over the other person if they perform the right move. So, when both the player and the AI perform a move at the same time, it would go like this:

High Attack beats Mid Attack
Mid Attack beats Low Attack
Low Attack beats High Attack (Ducking would be why in my mind)

I'll give the game another play later tonight and see if I can't get through the entire demo.


The one and only,


Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 03:29
sweet cheers dude.

yeah there is that system kinda in place. match your height of move to their height of move to block it. as I said there will be a visual representation of the move you need to do added later, but I couldn't figure out a nice intuitive way of doing it. with the jumps, if in doubt just do 4 Xjumps, then wall run, then x jump.
Z and C jumps burn the Ninja meter too fast to be useful for high climbs. they come into play in some of the levels that aren't really out yet..

Important.. you can hit M to get a zoomed out view and see where you're going, hit enter to jump back into the game.. should help.


and plystire...if 3 got you angry... level 4 will drive you NUTS.

I want robotic legs.
Hassan
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 16:39
Hey very nice game you got there! but yes some high places drives you nuts =/
i couldn't finish 3rd level because of some very high place, pressed 'P' to go to the next level, was finishing 4 but my computer auto restarted

Anyhow, i faced two bugs, first one is what you mentioned, jumping on corners make you go underground, second one is that when there is someone over you, like this:
.|<--enemy
______ <--wall
|<--you
like you are facing him, but he is "over" you, if you attack while it's like this, he plays animations as if he is being hit (but he don't lose health)

but overall the game is very very good

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 1st Jun 2010 16:51
I can't get through the proving ground.
Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 03:25
Oh, thank goodness you are still working on this! And you're back with a demo! Man, I can't wait to test this baby out. Downloading, and I'm expecting good things.

j e s t a m a r l
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 04:24
I, for one, kinda liked the platforming. It was very new and original, and I felt that the platforming required more thinking and strategy than skill. I managed to get through all four of the levels once I just tried different combinations of jumps and wall-runs. Butter fingers, if you're thinking of lowering the difficulty of the platforming, please keep the difficulty now as an option! I know it's kinda weird, but I enjoyed the platforming more than the combat! But that's probably because I like puzzles, and that fourth level didn't drive me NUTS, it was awesome! Had a very satisfying feeling once I finished it.

Just a hint to those having trouble, wall-running uses up all of your ninja, so use it last after your wall jumps. Don't know if that was in the tutorial. And trial and error doesn't hurt!
Mazz426
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 16:06 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2010 16:31
well i loved it, its the sort of game i can see on steam, once you throw a story in there it'll be great. the only thing was i never got past level 3, i don't know if this is just me being stupid but i just can't reach the above platform in the screen, i wall run and can only jump once, i try jumping 4 times, try spamming the z and c keys but nothing gets me there, is there some trick i'm missing



EDIT:
got past it, nice work on the last level, i think that the style is great but the levels felt to me empty, i think that adding detil objects like rocks, or plants or whatever would really make the game look more populated and dense

Hassan
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 17:00
@Mazz, i couldn't pass this place too, how did you manage to do it? xD lol

Butter fingers
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 17:31 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2010 17:31
Hey guys, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THE FEEDBACK! It's really appreciated!!

I'm at work so can't write a long reply, but inresponse to the questions about the above section of level 3...

(my flatmate actually punched my keyboard and has a little GRRRRR on this bit)

Start by jumping at medium speed into the RIGHT wall.

Do 4 X jumps, then as you land back on the right hand wall do a wall run, and X jump out at the peak of the run. You should just squeak it!


I want robotic legs.
Hassan
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 18:20
ah didn't know you could wall jump after 4 x jumps, awesome, finished the game =)

with (as said above) a few more details, more levels and some bosses, this game would be perfect.

Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 22:30
I absolutely love this game! It's a blast to play! I hardly noticed a single one of the glitches you mentioned in the post with the download. I'm gonna break this analysis down so I can give better feedback.


Glitches

There were not many glitches that occurred while I played. There were only two very noticeable glitches during my playtime and each can probably be fixed with ease.

1.) During the first level I ran up on a seam in the ground. The enemies fell through the seam and constantly slashed at nothing in the background. They were obviously out of the level, but I could still hear them hacking away. Just close up the seam and you should be fine.

2.) After I died (I died numerous times), if I waited for around 15 seconds, my character would come back to life, spewing blood. He was fully controllable but died with a single hit. The "You died, hit return." screen was still there, as well. That's all that I encountered glitch-wise, fortunately.


Annoyances

1.) I have no return button. There just isn't one on my keyboard. After I die, then I have to bring up the start menu and click play. Which doesn't seem natural... Perhaps make it the enter button or backspace?

2.) I would like to see some difficulty levels. I honestly had some trouble with the enemies. I died a good ten times and I only made it to the end of level 2 (Which was awesome, by the way). Make it to where they do less damage on easy, a little bit more damage on medium, etc.. This would make for an interesting game on Ninja mode (like an impossible mode for the hardcore players.)

3.) I was disappointed you took out the speech bubbles. It broke my heart. Try and find some time to put them in, Mkay?

4.) No aerial attacks. I could definitely have used some aerial attacks in quite a few situations, and I think it would make for an interesting addition to the game. Try and squeeze these in there, also, because the game seems lacking because of it.

5.) I didn't get a good explanation of the attacks I could use, in-game. I still don't know which button out of ZXC is high attacks. This isn't a big deal, though, because I didn't really care what attack I was using when slashing through evil-ninja-faces.



Likes

1.) The Platforming. I think it is awesome. I love it. I enjoyed it, and I think it added a good level of difficulty to the game without being too hard.

2.) Holding the down-arrow to show when to strike for a 1HKO was brilliantly designed. I thoroughly enjoyed slicing the bad guys completely in half. Awesome feature.

3.) The movement was well done, as well as the acceleration.

4.) The atmosphere was perfect. The music fit great and the clean stylized graphics were wonderful. I liked the way each level differed from one another with their own color theme.

5.) Chi-mode was definitely very cool. I had some fun with it, but didn't use it as much as I should have because I forgot it was there sometimes. But still, very cool feature.

6.) I had a great FPS when playing the game. No lag at all, and I have a crappy integrated card... I'm so glad that it worked as well as it did.


Suggestions

1.) Bosses. Definitely try to get some end-level bosses in there. I think this game seems to be begging for a few gigantic bad-ass bosses. Even some human-sized ninja-like bosses would be cool. Probably sounds corny, but I think it'd be a great addition.

2.) Power-ups should be added and hidden throughout the level in hard to reach places. Temporary health add-ons, insta-kill for 30 seconds, jump boost, chi refill, health refill, power boost, speed increase, etc.. Basically, all of the usual stuff.

3.) Speech bubbles, of course.

4.) Change the death screen so that it asks for a key other than return.

5.) Fix the few glitches that you have.

6.) Aerial attacks.

7.) And lastly, I suggest that you get this baby finished!



Further Comments

I had a great time playing, and I cannot wait to see the future features you plan to implement in the game. I loved the demo and I expect to see this game becoming very popular here on TGC. Hope you find my post useful, and please remember, I'm only trying to help so don't take any of the negative things the wrong way! You're an inspiration to many of the coders on the forums here. Congrats on getting the demo out.

-HC

Hockeykid
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2010 23:16
Quote: "1.) I have no return button. There just isn't one on my keyboard. After I die, then I have to bring up the start menu and click play. Which doesn't seem natural... Perhaps make it the enter button or backspace?"


Enter is the return key.

Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2010 00:41 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2010 01:17
I'm pretty sure I tried that as well... But, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try again.

[edit]

What do ya know, enter works. And I got a chance to play through the entire game. Each level is as awesome as the last. Tricky Tunnels were indeed, tricky. But I also encountered another glitch.

If you die because of falling into spikes and do not jump the next time you fall off of a ledge, the gravity will keep adding on to itself, and you'll eventually fall extremely fast. Looks like jumping resets gravity being added on, but it should also reset after dying/hitting the spikes.

Butter fingers
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2010 03:51 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2010 03:52
EDIT - I left this post for about 3 hours before I finished it. Happy Cheesecake , thanks for the wicked feedback. It's 2am here, so I'll reply tomorrow

Hassan

Thanks buddy, glad you got through it! The floor bug is just a case of tweaking the detection for landings, it's not too much of an issue, but it's long tweaking that kind of thing, I'll get it sorted soon.

The bug with enemies above you is a bit of a weird one. I think it's to do with the distance calculations. It's not something that I had noticed so thankyou for pointing it out. I think that will be fixed when I sort out the AI so enemies actually have to "see" you.

I'm sorry the jumping drove you a little nuts, I should have made a better tutorial!

Happy Cheesecake

Cool dude, well, I look forward to hearing what you think.

Green Gandalf

I'll reply to your email, but I totally blame your fingers for not finding the X button fast enough!!

Mazz

Steam! Well that's a compliment! Thanks dude. I actually went to Valve offices last year on a business trip and have some business cards... so who knows.. I get the feeling they would be a bit snobby about a DBpro game!!

Hope my earlier post helps you get through the part level 3. I'm itching for the story to get done, but sadly Kris is a very talented guy and is very much in demand at the moment, and he's very kindly doing this for the love (i.e. free) so I can't really ask too much! It'll get there though.. and when it does I have every faith that he'll smash it!!

You're right about detail. Don't worry though, these levels were just testers to be honest. The editor has the ability to add much more stuff - like individual animated objects, so the final maps will be much more detailed and exciting.

Jesta Marl

Glad you enjoyed it dude. I'm kind of with you on the difficulty a little bit. Between finishing meatboy this year, which I really enjoyed the platformy puzzle-ness off, and having a love of those impossibly hard 16 bit platformers of yesteryear, I didn't want to make something too easy.
I think perhaps I pitched the demo a little bit too hard.. I should have made the levels scale in difficulty more slowly and gradually introduced the moves.

I do agree with you about the strategy. I really want the platform bits to be a puzzle in themselves. I want the player to have to look at an obstacle and really have to think about the sequence of moves they will need to overcome it. I think it's really satisfying when you finally nail the right line through some of the bits of level 4.

Thanks for the feedback guys, and please keep it coming... I'm going to take all of this to heart as I progress with the development, and try to get the balance a bit better in the next demo. DO keep the feedback coming... it's the only way I can improve!

I want robotic legs.
j e s t a m a r l
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2010 05:13
Maybe something you could do is add more checkpoints before the puzzles, because sometimes it became tiring to redo the same puzzle again, especially when it took some timing like in Tricky Tunnels.

I like how you tried to make the hud very minimalist, just a symbol for heatlh, ninja, chi, etc, but it was a little hard to gauge how much of each you had left, especially the ninja. It's okay right now, but I just thought it could be something to improve on.
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2010 17:50
Just had a chance to play this and I am VERY impressed. It's every bit as slick as the videos and screenshots suggested it would be.

I too noticed the "enemy at a different height" bug, and the bug which doesn't reset falling speed after death. I don't think I encountered any of the others, though.

Regarding platforming - at first, the whole thing really confused me: I wasn't really sure when it would be best to use a wall jump, when to use a wall run and when to use a boost-jump. As I played through the levels (level 3 particularly), I grew to learn what was needed where. I don't think I would have been able to figure out the "do 4 wall jumps, then a wall run, then a final wall jump" puzzle if I hadn't already come across your solution here, though. Perhaps if you actually tell people that wall jumps are relatively cheap, but that if you wall run you can then only do one wall jump after that? Having said that, by level 4 I was in full control of the jumping system, and could actually zoom out with the M key, plan a route and then execute it.

On a side-note: using the M key is usually fine, but occasionally it doesn't show you what you want to see. For example, near the end of level 4 there's a big pit that you have to jump down where you have to jump off alternating walls to avoid spikes. The problem was, standing above the pit and using M only let me see the first set of spikes, and I only found out about the second set when I impaled myself on them Might it be possible to allow the player to scroll the zoomed-out view to see what lies ahead in the level? If you wanted to keep something secret from the player (eg. a boss character) you could perhaps restrict this view a bit.

The combat was very fluid and fun, particularly the dismemberment (aaah! Severed heads turning gracefully in the air!) but it did feel a bit haphazard at times. I did use Chi occasionally, and I tried to match the enemies' attacks (high with high, mid with mid etc.) but I find it quite difficult to judge which kind of attack an enemy is using. Most of the time I ran into the enemy, hitting them quickly before they could react with a variety of different attacks, and that seemed to work, but it felt as though I didn't deserve those kills because I hadn't really understood the fighting system.

Although the levels weren't tremendously different in mood, I think the different colours and ambient music pieces helped to differentiate them, so when you start building more complex levels with animated objects etc. this'll really come through. Oh - a little suggestion: you know how buildings are black but have white windows, and the passages through buildings are completely white? I was able to differentiate between them, but it might make things easier if you paint the windows grey so that white always equals a gap in the architecture that you can go through.

Oh, and - last but not least - love the art style! I particularly love the way blood splatters on the white walls when you're inside.

Bottom line: it's excellent, and already fun to play, and will be a great game if made longer with a story. A few little tweaks here and there will make it into a slick little gem.

Secretary of Unknowable Knowledge for the Rock/Dink administration '08
Plotinus
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Posted: 6th Jun 2010 21:02
Really great to see a new update for this game, which I think is already one of the most impressive on the site.

So these are my first impressions.

The front-end is brilliant. The menu, loading screens, and font all look really great. It could do with loading bars, though.

The music is also great and fits it well - especially such diverse-sounding tracks. I especially liked the funky track on the last level.

I found the controls sometimes a bit confusing, but presumably in the finished game you would introduce them all more gradually.

I couldn't work out the point of the down-arrow moves. The intro said that an icon would appear, allowing a sudden-death move, but I never saw it.

I found it a bit counter-intuitive to use the up-arrow for slower, more powerful moves. It might be simpler to use the method that Oblivion does: quick key-press for standard move, hold and release for power move.

Everything is really well animated - as usual. But the main character should have some transition frames between standing still and running. Also, it would be fun if, right at the top of a wall run, as he's running more frantically to stay up, he waved his arms about or something.

It often seemed to me that the margin of error at precipices was very small. Often I would run towards the precipice, press space, and find that I hadn't pressed it quickly enough, and he would just run off the end.

The slow-motion effect is very cool. I especially like the way the music changes. I think that the main character should move a bit more quickly during these bits, though, to provide more benefit from using it. Or perhaps there could be extra indication, during these sequences, of what attack the enemy is about to use, giving you a better chance of doing the correct block. Something like a little flash in front of the enemy - high, medium, or low - would work well with this and simulate the main character's heightened senses during these sequences.

I like the platforming element. I especially liked the way that the final level was basically a series of puzzles. As I played it I came to understand better how all the wall jumping and running worked, and by the end was able to work out what to do in each situation pretty well. It was sometimes frustrating, partly because of the precipice issue mentioned above, and partly because he does seem to slide down the walls quickly. I think it would be better if he did that more slowly. Plus, I really hate spikes in platform games, just on aesthetic grounds (come on! spikes! they're the damage-dealing version of crates!) but perhaps that's just me.

Also, I like the icons for health, ninja, etc., and I like the way they grow and shrink - especially how the ninja icon bounces back when you complete a sequence of moves. It all looks really professional.
Diggsey
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Posted: 6th Jun 2010 22:31 Edited at: 6th Jun 2010 22:34
The first time I tried it, it felt impossible to control, but I tried it again today and really enjoyed it

A couple of bugs:
- The one you already know about where you land not quite on a platform
- I tried to wall run up one of the chimney things on the top of a roof, and it crashes the game with a "... has encountered a problem and needs to close" error. I'll see if I can reproduce it...
edit:
- Just played again and the player and enemies went white!

A few things I liked:
- The way you can knock enemies of the side of buildings!
- The huge variety of different moves and the nice effects.
- The platforming
- The overall style
- The 'cheat' key to go the next level, yes I found it

Some suggestions:
- Make the jumping a bit more forgiving. At the moment its easy to run straight off a platform when you want to jump!
- Make the map scrollable up and down


Overall it was very fun to play

JLMoondog
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Posted: 7th Jun 2010 04:13 Edited at: 7th Jun 2010 04:15
Haha! I loved playing this, I want more levels. Splitting buggers down the middle, awesome!

The platform jumping worked out real well. It's very precise so as long as your not mashing buttons you can execute some cool moves.

The music was very cool to listen to while slicing limbs, and the voices were epically comical when spilling blood.

Only things I think would improve gameplay:

Add some markers to indicate where the player should be going or would want to be going. Randomly I was sliding down a wall, quit fast, and I just decided to wall jump to the next wall and just happened to narrowly miss some spikes.

Block. Literally, a block+counter move would make combat more strategic.

Ranged enemies would help mix it up. More enemy types in general would be great.

Some kind of powerup after getting a full slash meter. Not sure if something should have happened, but I didn't see anything different when I did, and I could keep that thing full through most of the level.

Overall, a lot of fun. Can't wait to see more!

Edit:
I was running this on a vista system and it ran just fine. Also, any chance for a window mode, or have the game auto detect screen resolution? I have a wide screen and the game looked stretched.


Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 12th Jun 2010 06:21
@Butter Fingers-

Recorded myself playing through most of the second level. I think you'll appreciate watching someone else play through the game. While recording, I went to a few places that I think you should know about. They're very high up places and are probably meant to be inaccessible. If I were you, these would be places to add in secret bonus items, power-ups, funny little easter eggs, and the like. Anyways, here's the link. Enjoy the video, and ignore the slight-slo-mo (best quality I can get).

Cheers!

Butter fingers
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Posted: 15th Jun 2010 19:07
Hey all, very sorry for the lack of response from me, have been very busy! I promise to get back to y'all tonight, and thanks for your comments HCC, I checked the video ,and posted it on the Bushido Page on my site. THANKS!

I want robotic legs.
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Posted: 15th Jun 2010 19:58 Edited at: 15th Jun 2010 20:41
Downloading now, rapidshare made me wait a minute before download because I'm not a "premium user" and then it has a download speed of 132 kbs on a 77 mb thing I'll test it and edit this post in about 7 minutes (at least thats what the download says )

Edit Played through it, here is what I have to say.

Cool Stuff: The death animations were priceless, like when the guy slices through him like a loaf of bread. It's really fun hacking people up and jumping around.

Not Cool Stuff: The Ninja skill meter is annoying. It makes parts of the game less about jumping around and killing people and more about timing your jumps right and just barely reaching platforms with the skill meter you have. For this reason, I had to quit at level 3, it got too hard. Other then that, the jumping is pretty cool, reminds me of prince of persia. Also, the combo system is kind of odd. It's fun to do, but you can just press z x or c over and over in a line of enemies and rack up combos, even if you miss periodically. Makes it a little too easy to kill them. I did notice the glitch you talked about when you fall through the floor, happened to me on level 3. Also, it's a little hard to tell whats a wall and whats in the foreground/background, just a minor complaint. It's also a little weird that when you are running fast and change direction, you still move fast.

Overall: Pretty cool. Fun to slice and dice people and hear the japanese guy yell stuff, but has a few issues to iron over.

Sorry if stuff in here is repeat feedback, but I didn't want to read through everybody's posts and omit feedback already given, call me lazy Anyway, pretty nice job.

Codesurge is so awesome, thanks Hyrichter.

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