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Work in Progress / (Db Pro) Paradox Engine

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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 07:32 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2011 06:37
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THIS THREAD IS NOW OUTDATED PLEASE GO HERE
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=183256&b=8&p=0

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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 14:44
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I don't really know what all this is and stuff but, why are you capping the FPS at 30? xD - You should cap at 66.

(66 because it's our eye refresh rate and also allows for fluctuations of -5 FPS that still won't create screen tear.)

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thenerd
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 15:38
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Actually, 30 is the eye refresh rate...But having it higher around sixty is better because it is the normal screen refresh rate for most monitors. And anyway, the "Screen FPS" is totally different then what the actual refresh rate is that the eye detects, and the screen fps() command is somewhat misleading. The sync rate just defines how many times per second DBpro sends the update to DirectX. The FPS rate is a totally different thing, and cannot be controlled. true FPS is only determined by DirectX, and your monitor.

Looks pretty cool, I can't say that much because there's only one screenshot, but looks good.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 16:38
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Actually, our eye refresh rate is 24 FPS.

The engine looks good so far. It may not yet qualify as a WIP, but given you're a new member, I think you're doing a good job and working on the appropriate things for a game engine.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 17:18 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 17:19
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^ Off topic (but sort of on topic with the framerates )

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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 17:27
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The reason I caped it at 30 is it looks like the dude is running super fast at 60

And I'm not that new to the fourms, I joined in 2008 but my account got screwed up, I used to have a quote and an avatar also
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Dia
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 17:58 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 17:59
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...since when do eyes have refresh rates?

human beings (including our eyes) operate continuously, not in discrete steps that happen to be an integer multiple of times per second

for example, under artificial light like fluorescents, that run off the AC mains (i.e. 50 or 60Hz depending on where you are) you can see a wheel going backwards due to strobe effects, whereas under natural (i.e. continuous) light you do not get the effect of the wheel spinning backwards

This was taken from 100fps.com:
Quote: "
"How many frames per second can the human eye see?"

This is a tricky question. And much confusion about it is related to the fact, that this question is NOT the same as:

"How many frames per second do I have to have to make motions look fluid?"

And it's not the same as

"How many frames per second makes the movie stop flickering?"

And it's not the same as

"What is the shortest frame a human eye would notice?"
"


the answers for all of those questions vary for the task at hand, check out the page for the description of why has lots to do with dark/bright, slow/fast motion, whether or not motion blur is used etc

Edit:

oh yeah, commico - you can change the speed at which the animation etc is playing, it doesnt have to be tied to framerate

This is not the Sig you are looking for....
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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 18:13
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I cap FPS at 30, what's the point in wasting game loops to have screen draws that the eye can't see easily? :p

I cannot believe you when you say you can see the difference between 59 times a second, and 60 times a second, that's ridiculous.

Anyways, I'm interested to see what this turns into, take a look at timer based movement, sparky's collision, and maybe Blitzterrain.

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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 18:53
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ya i tryed to get sparkys colision working but i cant seem to get it installed right, ill see
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swissolo
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 18:55
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Commico Inc : My joined date is messed up too! . I thought I was the only one!

Anyways, 60 FPS looks smoother because your eye doesn't refresh at an equal rate to 30 FPS. 60 has more frames to cover the inconsistency.

swis
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C0wbox
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 19:03 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 19:04
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Quote: "I cannot believe you when you say you can see the difference between 59 times a second, and 60 times a second, that's ridiculous. "

Believe it - I surprised myself when I noticed.

It's not that I can see the frames but at 59FPS the screen tears when you're doing things and things don't seem to move as freely.
As soon as it goes above 60FPS my eyes relax and vision returns to normal.

(It's an interesting effect, but means I can always tell when my applications are lagging, without the FPS counter )

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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 19:18 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 19:19
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NEW SCREEN SHOTS POSTED AT THE TOP

wierd, once i implement timer based movement ill turn sync to 60
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thenerd
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 19:26
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That's quite different, our eyes have something called persistance of vision. Basically, any screen that flashes under around 30 time per second is seen flashing, but any screen higher than that blurs to one moving picture. Most monitors run at around 60, so it does make sense to have the sync rate match the display refresh rate. Note that just because the sync rate is 30, the fps may be totally different, and is based on the power your computer has.
It is very easy to see the difference in those rates because of a tearing effect caused by directx blending frames that are below or above the refresh rate. However, that is not true screen tearing, which can absolutely destroy your monitor.
Forgive me if I make no sense, I'm typing on a droid keyboard...
Nice screens btw.

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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 19:33
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@swissolo I thought it was only me too! Lol
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SH4773R
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 19:40 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 19:43
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Thanks the nerd, I'm using a droid too
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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Oct 2010 23:35 Edited at: 16th Oct 2010 23:36
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C0wbox is actually right... There is a difference between 60 fps and 30 fps, but I don't see any difference between 60 and 45... Here's the little program I wrote to test your theory:



TheComet

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thenerd
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 01:08
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I'm not saying cowbox is wrong, just that the sync rate in dark basic is totally different from screen fps, and the command in dark basic is misleading. the two are closely linked, but not the same. I've basically stopped worrying about that, I always turn on sync rate 0 and vsync on for the highest fps possible without tearing, and then use timer-based for everything.
I think I've trolled myself.

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TheComet
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 01:39
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Quote: "I'm not saying cowbox is wrong, just that the sync rate in dark basic is totally different from screen fps, and the command in dark basic is misleading. the two are closely linked, but not the same."


OK yeah, I agree with that too

TheComet

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SH4773R
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 02:02
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is turnig vsync on as symple as one command?
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C0wbox
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 02:11
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Quote: "is turnig vsync on as symple as one command?"

Simpler - it's as simple as one parameter !
(set display mode has a 4th parameter for it)


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thenerd
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 02:32 Edited at: 17th Oct 2010 02:32
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That's not quite true, vsync varies between monitors, some monitors have a refresh rate of 120, so the vsync is higher as well. Most of the time it is 60 however.

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 03:02
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Actually, our eye refresh rate is 33 FPS...

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 03:20 Edited at: 17th Oct 2010 03:21
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Quote: "Actually, our eye refresh rate is 33 FPS..."

xD I think we've pretty much established by the results in this thread (60, 30, 24, infinity, 33) that no one knows.

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SH4773R
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 04:07 Edited at: 17th Oct 2010 05:26
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@c0wbox ok cool so if i wanted vsync all i have to do is have
width,hight,depth,1? correct?

EDIT ok i tryed it and it works, thanks!
but before i relese a demo how to i use ds .fx files as fullscereen shaders? i did a fourm search but cold not find any usefull info, i know theres a "load effect" command but what else do i need to do?
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 10:36
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I cannot stand running my projects at 30 fps. I would get a headache.
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TuPP3
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 13:16 Edited at: 17th Oct 2010 13:28
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About the FPS, most commercial games run at 30fps and we cannot really see any difference.

The difference between 30 and 60 fps is not what we necessarily see, but what happens in the game code itself. Obviously looping the game 60 times per second will create smoother movement of objects, especially fast moving ones. I mean updating 800m/s bullet in 60fps will find more waypoints than one updated 30fps.
(Assuming that there is global timer based speed, bullets move at the same rate)

Btw. I thought that DarkBASIC is a game engine, isn't this called something else?
(Base of a game etc.)

As you already know that you should limit the weapon floating, to for example 10 degrees.
I have same type of system in my game and I limit it like this:



FloatLim# is just constant, in my case it's 5.
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C0wbox
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 15:55
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Quote: "Btw. I thought that DarkBASIC is a game engine, isn't this called something else?
(Base of a game etc.)"

I think in today's jargon you can have engines built on engines.

I mean, even the DBP engine is built on Dx, which is another engine effectively.

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TheComet
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 15:57
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Just tested your demo, nice work One suggestion I have is inverting the gun rotation, so when I turn left, the gun turns right, and if I turn up, the gun turns down. I think that would be a little more natural considering the mass and momentum of the gun.

TheComet

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SH4773R
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Posted: 17th Oct 2010 19:12
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ok i might look in to that
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 18th Oct 2010 21:09 Edited at: 18th Oct 2010 21:09
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Non-drop frame NTSC television is 30 fps, or 60 fields per second. Film is 24 fps. As mentioned above, our eyes don't have a "framerate", it's all about the myth of persistance of vision.

I've been working in television and video for over 30 years, and I certainly can spot a difference of one frames worth. It really bugs me when tv affiliates "go local" to add a super at the bottom of a show, and the audio is not delayed along with the video. One frames worth of delay, and it's obvious that the words don't match the lips.

Of course, the more fps, the smoother the motion will appear. If your action is too fast at a higher frame rate, then you should use a timer based system for movement, and not cap the frame rate to achieve your timing. Lots of good threads on these boards about timer based programming.

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Oct 2010 15:09 Edited at: 19th Oct 2010 15:09
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You should never limit a first person shooter to less than 50fps, you need that many to keep things properly fluid, and give the right impression. Timer based movement is usually the best bet. With that, the faster the PC, the smoother the game will run - but more importantly it will be able to cope with slight lags here and there, it'll catch itself up immedietly.

Your eyes 'acknowledge' 24 times a second, but the actual image would be a composite of everything that happend in those 41 milliseconds. The same applies to videogames, you can't just render the camera at 24fps and expect it to look good - your eyes still need to compose the image. Your eyes are organic, and that 24fps is not exact - theres a lot of room for glitches to creep in at that rate.

Your already developing for 30fps, so I would suggest doing that, but add a multiplier variable, call it elapsed# or something, and this is a factor of the elapsed time between frames, based on a set value - in your case 30fps. So if you work out how many milliseconds have elapsed since the last SYNC, you can work out a multiplier and use that. 30fps means 33.333333 milliseconds, so divide the elapsed time by that, and multiply all movements by this elapsed# value.

So where you might have...

sync on : sync rate 30
make object cube 1,10
do
turn object left 1,2.0
sync
loop

You could have:

sync on : sync rate 0
make object cube 1,10
tim=timer()
do
turn object left 1,elapsed#*2.0

`Work out elapsed#
ntim=timer()
el=ntim-tim
tim=ntim
elapsed#=el/33.33333

sync
loop

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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Red Eye
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Posted: 19th Oct 2010 18:22 Edited at: 19th Oct 2010 18:25
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I dont know if this is said before, but our eyes dont have framerate...

They can notice any smoothness or lag...
At least that is what my computer says, (doing some research lately for rapideyemovement and dreams), with an REM-Folower pretty fun...

Ontopic:

Great work so far, if u need help say, but since i use darkgdk i dunno...

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SH4773R
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Posted: 6th Nov 2010 23:17 Edited at: 7th Nov 2010 03:33
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Thanks red, I'm accually considering porting it to dgdk when I finish it ill let you know

To all others, sorry I haven't been online awhile just recovered from fatal bsod error, back to work
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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 02:30
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Quote: "human beings (including our eyes) operate continuously, not in discrete steps"


Quote: "As mentioned above, our eyes don't have a "framerate""


Quote: "I dont know if this is said before, but our eyes dont have framerate..."


Actually they do It's not consistent between humans, but our brains can only take snapshots of what we see, process it, then move on to the next snapshot. That's why we feel nauseous in high speed vehicles and rollercoasters, especially when turning corners. The brain gets confused when one snapshot differs wildly from the next. This is pretty much confined to humans, most animals don't suffer from this "design flaw".

Higher frame rates make sure more viewers don't lose synchronisation, where their internal frame rate differs from the on-screen one, the same phenomenon that causes backwards-spinning wheels etc.

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SH4773R
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 03:12 Edited at: 7th Nov 2010 03:34
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i think one of u mods should rename this thread to:
(Db Pro) Paradox Engine (FPS discussion)

lol

edit:
oh and bat i love your avatar
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dark coder
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 04:52
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Quote: "Actually they do It's not consistent between humans, but our brains can only take snapshots of what we see, process it, then move on to the next snapshot"


If we saw snapshots then 'the same phenomenon that causes backwards-spinning wheels etc.' would be present in real life when looking at spinning objects that are illuminated by lights that are constantly on, i.e. the sun.

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heyufool1
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 05:43
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Nice start! Although I have to ask, how are you going to compete with FPSC? I don't know if you plan on going commercial at some point in time, but if you did then what will your engine have that FPSC doesn't?

"So hold your head up high and know, it's not the end of the road"
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SH4773R
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 08:54
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Oh noo I would never try to compete with tgc, this is mainly a pet project. I may use it for my future games

As for the things that will be diffrent from fpsc is:

Breath fog (not done yet)
Uber fast(so far lol)
Gun sway effects
Gun sprint effects
Multiple fs shaders(working on)

...etc

Take a look at the demo for gun effects
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Andrew_Neale
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 09:41
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Quote: "If we saw snapshots then 'the same phenomenon that causes backwards-spinning wheels etc.' would be present in real life when looking at spinning objects that are illuminated by lights that are constantly on, i.e. the sun."


Well I don't know the exact reason for that, but the 2 obvious reasons would be either that are eyes frame rate is considerably higher, or that when you are watching a video, your eye's, "frame rate" differs from that of the video and they fall out of sync causing the illusion.

Regardless, logically it seems obvious that your eyes would have a "frame rate" as your brain has to perform processing for us to see, and this processing is naturally not instant, so there must be a limit to how many images per second we can see.

And back on topic, this is looking pretty good so far. I'm interested to see where this goes. I'm currently beavering away on an fps engine myself, primarily for personal projects but with the thoughts of releasing it as an FPSC alternative. Not necessarily looking to seriously compete, but as a developer its always nice to have options. Anyway, I shall be keeping an eye on how this goes.

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TheComet
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 13:32
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You can't really call it "framerate" with human eyes... There are no "snapshots". The cells in the back of our eyes pick up the colors from outside, and pass them on to our brain to be processed. These cells have a limit to how fast they can cope with the color changing. So if you have red, and then change it to blue faster than the eye can cope with, the cells will first pick up red, and then fade into blue (red, light purple, dark purple, blue). That's why we don't get the backwards-spinning wheel phenomenon. It will just appear blurred. Same with TV screens : If you oscillate between red and blue fast enough, it will appear purple to us.

To make it short, eyes are analog, and don't have the same "framerate" type you are talking about with screens.

TheComet

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Andrew_Neale
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 14:30
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Which is exactly why I put frame rate in quotes. As both you and I have said, there is a limit to the speed at which the eye/brain combo can respond to changes. Which for all intents and purposes is a "frame rate" limit. The way the image is handled between "frames" is the key difference. Anyways, I'm no expert, I just thought it was interesting topic and wanted to take part, haha.

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SH4773R
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Posted: 7th Nov 2010 17:10 Edited at: 7th Nov 2010 17:41
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///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
NEW DEMO ATTACHED, MENU SYSTEM AND BIGGER LEVEL
DOWNLOAD ON THIS POST OR AT TOP.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
EDIT:

NEW PICS TOO


/caps off/

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SH4773R
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 02:54
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//////////////////////////////////////
SKY SPHERES NOW WORKING
///////////////////////////////////////




/caps off/
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baxslash
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 13:17
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Looks great. If you are looking into using a flashlight for this (from your first post) I would look at using evolved's lightmapping method as it will work with his flashlight shader. If you use DarkLights his flashlight shader won't work quite right.

Quote: "If we saw snapshots then 'the same phenomenon that causes backwards-spinning wheels etc.' would be present in real life when looking at spinning objects that are illuminated by lights that are constantly on, i.e. the sun."

I'm really sorry to put my two penneth worth in here but have you ever looked at helicoptor blades spinning (in real life)? I'm 99% sure I've noticed an obvious backward movement particularly when the blades are building in speed. Sunlight does have a frequency, maybe that causes the same effect?

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Dr Tank
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 15:35
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This is becoming a discussion about framerates! I think that if you're going to just cap the framerate (Rather than doing variable timestep mechanics, or decoupling the mechanics from display update), then capping at 30 is good.

It means that you're less likely to get slowdown, on slow computers, or when windows is doing something else in the background, and (I feel this is right but haven't tested) problems where the requested framerate and what you actually get differ a bit will be less severe.

I think if your monitor has a native FPS of 100 and you try asking for, say, 90 fps or 110 then you won't get it. Actually this might depend on whether you have vsync on.

Anyway if you're fairly new to coding and have plenty of other stuff to work on, 30fps is just fine.
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Dr Tank
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 16:13 Edited at: 10th Nov 2010 16:48
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Quote: "I'm really sorry to put my two penneth worth in here but have you ever looked at helicoptor blades spinning (in real life)? I'm 99% sure I've noticed an obvious backward movement particularly when the blades are building in speed. Sunlight does have a frequency, maybe that causes the same effect?"

I imagine this is happening because the helicopter is in motion (presumably you are stationary) and the blades are reflective. The blades will look brighter when at an angle that reflects the sunlight towards the observer. You say this happens when the heli is "building in speed". Presumably the blade pitch is changing.

Anyway. I played the game. Controls work nicely, gun "sway" feels right and I like the models you used. Framerate is 75fps at best, but drops to 37 when looking at a high poly mesh underneath a cooling tower. I imagine this is because so many polys/vertices are being rendered.

From looking inside walls it seems that there are "backfaces" to surfaces and judging from the lighting, they are different polygons to the outside ones. Perhaps you can reduce your polygon count by a factor of 2. I had a bash at deleting your backfaces with MS3D but the model is so big it took about 30s to select/deselect something. Presumably with whatever modelling program and computer you are using you can do that though.
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Red Eye
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 16:40
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Look forwards and move your hand infront of your head side to side, if it has "motion blur", means that basicaly the brains picks some snaps of what you are concentrating on, (I believe the ammount and wich snaps have something to do with the distance to object and velocity relaticaly to the focus point of your eye and lightintensity) and "blur" on what you do not concentrate on, and then fill the rest of the sequence in between, so basicaly it's already happened before you can see it [the ammount of time inbetween is ofcourse very small], it's like keyframes, you set key a to b and an object moves because the computer computes the frames inbetween, tho the difference is; that the amount of snaps depends on what you are looking at, hence that the eyeframerate is NOT the same as capping it on 66 or something .

You can control the above by doing the same thing, but now you move your hand and look at your hand while moving. If it keeps smooth and hightlighted (not blured, otherwise you need glasses to change focus point xd). That's what I "think" anyway.

Anyway, I love the progress of the Engine. Keep us updated. I will test the new beta.

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C0wbox
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Posted: 10th Nov 2010 17:08
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Oh dear, what have I started.

I broke the thread. xD

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SH4773R
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Years of Service
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Joined: 18th Jan 2010
Location: AMERICA!!!
Posted: 11th Nov 2010 01:38
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lol its ok C0wbox, its quite interesting acctually
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thenerd
15
Years of Service
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Joined: 9th Mar 2009
Location: Boston, USA
Posted: 11th Nov 2010 02:01
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Yup, this FPS discussion has really been cool...

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