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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Frequently Asked Questions

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DMXtra
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 11:59 Edited at: 24th Jan 2011 12:05
I am quite sure that subscriptions are not happening. You buy the product you are interested in and you get bug updates for free, but you have to pay for new versions. That is fine by me.

Here is the quote about the pricing which has been updated:

Quote: "
Q: What news of the AppGameKit Pricing? UPDATED!

We are still not ready to announce pricing. We will announce it closer to release. After feedback in the forum it seems a subscription model is not popular. We have therefore decided to opt for a standard pay once per version model. So you will be set an amount for Tier 1 or Tier 2 and this will ensure you own that version of AGK. You also receive 12 months of updates to that version. TGC will then look to release significant versions updates to the product which will require upgrade fees.
"


So, I really wouldn't worry about it. This is the right way to go.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
DMXtra
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 13:46
Okay, I updated my original post on the front page loaded with new questions.

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Drakkheim
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 14:48
Is it just me or does the tier 1 runtime app that loads other apps sound like it's against Apple's TOS. Kind of like the iDOS app ran into and had to make a nasty workaround to be able to get games into it. http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/01/idos-emulator-back-on-app-store-requires-hack-to-load-games.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss
bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 17:53 Edited at: 24th Jan 2011 17:54
It does sound against the rules. Bytecode, fine, but why not allow us to distribute ourselves similar to how DBC was done.

It's not like it would be any more work (well I suppose it would, but it wouldn't be insanely more complex), you'd already have all the interpreters completed.

I gotta say, with this restriction as it is, I'd probably not bother using it. And since I don't want to learn c++, I'd probably just pass on the product altogether.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 17:59 Edited at: 24th Jan 2011 18:00
Quote: "Q: I know you said you're supporting development for the iPad as well as the iPod touch, which is AWESOME, but will the two be separated in the dev environment? As in, if developing an app specifically for the iPad, will you be able to make use of the larger screen without having to "magnify" everything like when running an iPhone app on it?
A: Graphics will be scaled so that the app looks exactly the same on any device, but it will use the native resolution of the device. So you could either use high resolution images and code with the iPad in mind or use low resolution graphics and code with the iPod touch in mind. Either way your app will run on both, but coding with a large device in mind may cause usability issues when run on smaller devices."


Why not offer pre-processing commands where we can have our cake and eat it too?



And for handling resources so only what's needed is compiled, the editor could have options to choose which resources we'll use for whichever device, assuming that all the files used are compiled into one large file.

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blueFire
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 20:27
1. Will it be possible to embed and access external .dll files and AS3 .api files (such as http://www.andrograde.com/api.php, http://www.jambool.com/ and http://nonoba.com/developers/payment/overview)?

2. If TGC starts publishing user created games through app stores (Tier 1) are there any plans to set up a system where users could sell in game digital items through these same Tier 1 games via a TGC payment processing center or such? In such a case I am sure TGC would get a percentage of each sale which is ok.

Jason
Wraith Staff
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 20:52
Any TGC splash screens or watermarks? I sure hope not.

Diggsey
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 21:47
@Jerico2day
The point of tier 1 is that you don't have to recompile for different platforms. And what's so difficult about doing:


[b]
Schriev
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 21:55
Just to clarify... Why couldn't I sell games made from Tier 1 without going through TGC?
bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 21:59
Quote: "The point of tier 1 is that you don't have to recompile for different platforms. And what's so difficult about doing:"


I don't mind having to recompile for each platform if it means the system is more open.

And there's nothing wrong with your example except for it'll waste program speed with if/then checks at runtime.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 22:07
Quote: "it'll waste program speed with if/then checks at runtime"


You'd rather recompile for each platform than run a single IF or SELECT statement when your app initialises?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 22:16
Initialization isn't an issue, but if you use it during your main routine it can be an issue.

On some of these phones execution speed will be an issue.

I don't care about compile once deploy on all.

What I care about is that I can compile the executable myself, run straight out of the box, and distribute it myself.

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 22:26
What kinds of support will there be for internationalization and localization? Would we be building this kind of support ourselves or will there be something built into AppGameKit for multiple languages?


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
DMXtra
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 23:19
I would like to see the ability for us to distribute our works freely. In other words if I want to make some games for free and I don't want to go through TGC, I should be able to do that.

Is there any way we can get a compromise here?

For example, I would like to compile a game and then link it from facebook to get people to try this out on their phones. Not everyone is on a Windows or Mac and I would like to have them be able to sync freely to their phones or devices.

Is there any way for TGC to be a little more open in this?

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 23:30
@DMXtra - I'm pretty sure the Tier 2 plan allows for you to do whatever you'd like with your games.


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DMXtra
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Posted: 25th Jan 2011 02:17
Jeku,

That's true, but it should also be allowed with Tier 1. The difference between the two tiers is that Tier 2 is the more hands on approach, however that should not stop distribution.

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Schriev
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Posted: 25th Jan 2011 04:20
Quote: "Tier 2 is the more hands on approach, however that should not stop distribution"


I completely agree. We should be able to distribute games developed with Tier 1 freely.
dark coder
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Posted: 25th Jan 2011 05:52
Why not support OGG instead of MP3? Doesn't MP3 have licensing issues?

I'm still a bit confused about Tier 1, when you submit a game to TGC do they essentially bundle the byte-code with the media and game engine then submit each packaged engine to all the stores? Or is there going to be a single app present on all the stores that can externally download the code and media and run each game? Kind of like a sub-store.

If it's the former, then as Jerico2day says, what's the incentive to use AppGameKit? Someone could just write an AGK->C++ converter and use Tier 2 without the performance overhead, or knowledge of C++. The only difference would be that compiling to all the platforms would be a bit more annoying and would most likely require a mac, or they'd have to know someone with one.

And now that I think about it, if the various advanced features that arise from using byte-code aren't put to use(I doubt they will given all the discussions around these boards), what's the point of making AppGameKit compile to byte-code in the first place? You could just convert to C++ and compile it yourselves. After all, if TGC manually publish each game to each store, then having to recompile the C++ form for each platform wouldn't require any more time than packaging the bytecode.

Freedom Fighters
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Posted: 25th Jan 2011 12:02
Im so looking forward to this, it will be a awesome challenge to program in C++ for multiple platforms.

[ FF - Engine ] - Coming Soon...
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Jan 2011 09:19
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but have you guys at TGC done any research into existing languages geared towards games? There are at least a few languages that have some features that really contribute to the development (and maintenance) process, and you'll get a lot more information reading about them than putting out a survey which will be filled by people that don't really know much about language design and how it aids the development process.

For starters I'd take a good look at UnrealScript, an OOP-driven language which compiles to bytecode and has many powerful features that help game development.

Another good example is Lua which is used in several engines.
noobnerd
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Posted: 26th Jan 2011 23:38
is it possible to use the "easy" tier1 commands in tier2? Or are you restricted to the c++ish code? And do you publish all the games we ask you to publish (if they work) or do you publish only the good ones?
Greenster
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 17:22
lol this workflow sounds worse than my current one which is eclipse and C++ with IOS libs. Except here someone else is publishing your product with what seems to be a appended license..

Until it's actually like DBP workflow and doesn't have shady publishing I'll pass.
BatVink
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Posted: 29th Jan 2011 11:22
Greenster, my experience with Eclipse is a very good one, maybe you have just been subjected to a poor implementation of it? In my day job, we develop a full ERP system that is millions of lines of code, with multiple GUIs, batch jobs, subsystems, cross-platform, streaming documents, data access, APIs, interfaces, EDI/XML transfer etc. Considering the complexity of the product, it runs like a dream, and for hundreds of coders on the same project.

I think the crux is simple installation and configuration. If you get that right, the rest is easy. It is easy, as you have seen, to make a bad job of Eclipse too.

Greenster
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 18:56
@BatVink: Problem is people who buy a license for this are going to expect a 'typeless' language with a UI where they can code and create a package or binary like with other products here.

Here you're going to get a forum post for every compile error and memory exception from Mr.Biglesworth who can't program but wants to make mobile apps.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 10:10
In some cases you will be able to compile and run in a similar way to DB Pro. The solution we have at the moment for debugging and testing works quite well (across a WiFi network).

The submission process (for app stores) might be a little more complicated but in some cases there is little we can do about that, but what we do is solve a major problem in being able to get something running on there in the first place, not only that you have something that will run on multiple platforms.
World Class Multimedia
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 15:32
I am very excited about this. I will be developing for windows, mac, iphone/ipad/touch and android originally, with other platforms later.

I own all of these platforms already, so if you need a beta tester with a multitude of devices and who has been with DB since the very beginning, i'd be happy to oblige.

Mike

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 18:48
I have some questions I would like to see answered.

Q: When selling games using Tier 1 will the end user have to first download a player? Does this apply to all supported platforms? You do mention something about releasing demos for Windows.

Q: Will Tier 1 games be sold through a player app? I assume we can't sell them through an appstore directly.

Q: Since you receive money from every sale of Tier 1 games I assume it will be cheaper to get a Tier 1 license then a Tier 2 license? Will there also be an upgrade price for those who want Tier 2 later?

Q: You have support for MP3s, do we need some kind of license to sell games with MP3 music?

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kdf
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 20:05 Edited at: 4th Feb 2011 11:52
I had no idea it was such an issue.
Post edited!
baxslash
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Posted: 4th Feb 2011 09:56
Quote: "We have developed apps for Bada, Qt for Symbian and Android.
If TGC needs beta testers please let us know."

Is that for free or are you advertising?

If so you should contact TGC directly here:
Avoid having your account locked...

blueFire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 02:57
How hard would it be to make the run-time app (used in tier 1) into a browser plug-in? If this could be done TGC would then have a product that could not only create programs that run on many mobile platforms and desktop computers but could also create browser games and other web applications.

Just a thought.

Jason
Ched80
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 13:49
If I wanted to take advantage of the usre's GPS location, would I need a Tier II licence or are these features supported within Tier I?

[url="http://raptr.com/No_Turn_Right?src=em_forum"][/url]
blueFire
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 17:38
So, when will we be able to pre-order it and for those of us who do pre-order it will we have to wait until it is officially released to get it or will we be able to get our hands on a beta copy (or pre-release candidate) to start experimenting with?

Jason
blueFire
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 20:23
And another question. Is Kindle going to be one of the targeted platforms? Apparently Kindle uses java. There are already games being released for Kindle.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004DWLGGS
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P37FW0

Jason
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Feb 2011 22:04
@baxslash - kdf didn't do anything wrong in his original post


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baxslash
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Posted: 8th Feb 2011 10:24
Sorry @kdf I was just trying to make sure you didn't have your account locked (worst case) for advertising. My bad.

I just re-read the AUP and your post and Jeku is right, I guess I read more into it than was there.

Ched80
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Posted: 16th Feb 2011 11:03
When/If the Android platform is supported - how would I take advantage of the googlemaps feature? Would I need a T-II licence for this?

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candy
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Posted: 21st Feb 2011 10:11
means the Nintendo 3DS console???? just I think

I wanna hold you, till the fears in me subsides..
LeeBamber
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Posted: 26th Feb 2011 00:49
Hi Guys,

Just surfaced briefly from the AppGameKit engine room to answer your questions posed here. Don't hold us too closely to them, but they should give you an idea of our state of mind. Also check out the other thread on the AppGameKit board to see some sample AppGameKit Tier 1 code. For now, your answers:

Q> Eclipse and API lib? I'm already using that workflow for IOS. Eclipse is pretty bulky. Why use a bulky/redundant IDE?
A> We are making special attention to this, and stripping Eclipse down to the bare essentials

Q> If you add text commands, will they support antialiasing?
A> We are using bitmap fonts for the built-in text, so you can choose a resolution that suits

Q> I assume there will be a built in tile-, layer-, animation- and lightning system, like in the 2D plugin Kit (or something similar)?
A> Our focus primarily is a solid and fast foundation. We are adding features which elevate it from being just another wrapper, but we're keeping those dark for the moment.

Q> And, I also hope there will still be a significant amount of 3D commands?
A> There will be no 3D commands in the first release. Our aim is a really solid 2D kit to begin with. We may be exposing some nice 3D-esk features like shaders and UV manipulation, but only as far as quads.

Q> I asked if the AppGameKit will use the OpenGL ES system for its rendering?
A> Yes we are using OpenGL ES on devices where OpenGL is not available, but you are protected from this distinction by the language.

Q> Is it just me or does the tier 1 runtime app that loads other apps sound like it's against Apple's TOS?
A> It's a grey area and we have some strategies to overcome this barrier. For those with a Mac, you will always have the option of compiling natively to comply fully with Apple rules.

Q> Bytecode, fine, but why not allow us to distribute ourselves similar to how DBC was done?
A> You can, anyone with a Mac can compile their Tier 1 apps natively for publication on the App Store. We offer to publish apps for those users who do not have access to an Apple Mac.

Q> Why not offer pre-processing commands where we can have our cake and eat it too?
A> You can. There will be a command in AppGameKit which tells you which device you are running on, just in-case you want to re-arrange your screen, make buttons smaller or present specific themes.

Q> Will it be possible to embed and access external .dll files and AS3 .api files?
A> There are no plans to support third party external plugins or modules in Tier 1. Naturally Tier 2 will allow any number of linkages as it's plain old C++.

Q> Any TGC splash screens or watermarks?
A> No plans to add anything like that. If you pay for AppGameKit, you should not have to display our logos all over your work.

Q> Why couldn't I sell games made from Tier 1 without going through TGC?
A> You can, many platforms are not as restrictive as Apple, allowing you to compile your Tier 1 app and distribute it right away. To distribute your own Tier 1 apps on Apple, you will need a Mac to perform the final certificate based compile.

Q> What kinds of support will there be for internationalization and localization? Would we be building this kind of support ourselves or will there be something built into AppGameKit for multiple languages?
A> Great question. We have been focusing more on speed and universal stability at the moment, with localisation being left to the app author for the moment. There are a number of competing solutions which make localisation a snap, though we have yet to choose one. One simplified solution we have identified is that the app can be exported with the text data separated out, so you can localise without re-compiling the app. We'll explore this more during the public betas.

Q> I would like to see the ability for us to distribute our works freely. In other words if I want to make some games for free and I don't want to go through TGC, I should be able to do that?
A> Yes you can do that in Tier 1 and 2. See answers above.

Q> Why not support OGG instead of MP3? Doesn't MP3 have licensing issues?
A> Only device and OS vendors need worry about licensing MP3. End users are permitted to produce and digest MP3 content on suitably licensed devices. We have not ruled out OGG, which has certain advantages over MP3.

Q> What's the point of making AppGameKit compile to byte-code in the first place? You could just convert to C++ and compile it yourselves?
A> The choice is about ease versus speed. Tier 1 byte-code is designed to run on every device we ultimately support. If this becomes ten platforms, it means the programmer only has to code and test on one device, knowing they don't have to buy, build and set-up the nine other platforms to make their app cross-platform. Tier 2 is for those who prefer to compile for each platform personally, ensuring the fastest performance and widest support for device specific features.

Q> Have you guys at TGC done any research into existing languages geared towards games?
A> TGC have been developing and publishing game creation tools for ten years, and its employees have been using game making tools ten years before that. We have a natural interest in this field and always keep an eye on the horizon to see what our contemporaries are up to. To date, we've not found anything that has convinced us to switch to a third party development tool. As the number of game capable platforms explode, AppGameKit is something we needed in-house, and we're pleased to be able to share this cool technology with you soon.

Q> Is it possible to use the "easy" tier1 commands in tier2? Or are you restricted to the c++ ish code?
A> Yes you can. In order for you to self-publish a Tier 1 app, you will need a Mac, the iOS SDK and a special build of the Tier 1 interpreter which will allow you to take your Tier 1 app and compile it as a native binary for the App Store. C++ knowledge is not required.

Q> Do you publish all the games we ask you to publish (if they work) or do you publish only the good ones?
A> Good question. We have over two years’ experience specifically in publishing mobile apps to various stores, and have learned a thing or two about what makes a good app. Given the cost TGC would incur incubating the app and getting it ready for cross-platform sale, we'd only choose apps that reach a certain standard. Apps that don't quite make the grade will be given support on how they can be improved. Accepted apps will enjoy cross promotion within our extensive catalogue of apps and constant monitoring to ensure they remain compatible as devices evolve.

Q> I own all of these platforms already, so if you need a beta tester with a multitude of devices and who has been with DB since the very beginning, I’d be happy to oblige?
A> Great to hear we have a small army of brutal testers. As soon as we're confident, we will announce a public beta of AppGameKit in our monthly newsletter. Not quite there yet!

Q> When selling games using Tier 1 will the end user have to first download a player? Does this apply to all supported platforms?
A> Not at all, when you compile your app in Tier 1 the player is included. When you sell your app on the store, the interpreter is part of the final package and no separate Player is required. All devices will operate this way.

Q> Will Tier 1 games be sold through a player app? I assume we can't sell them through an Appstore directly.
A> Selling through a player is prohibited on most mobile stores, and so we are not using this approach. You can sell your app directly through an App Store by building a package that includes the player along with your app code, media and other files.

Q> Since you receive money from every sale of Tier 1 games I assume it will be cheaper to get a Tier 1 license then a Tier 2 license? Will there also be an upgrade price for those who want Tier 2 later?
A> Yes to both questions. Tier 1 is the affordable and easy game making solution, whereas Tier 2 provides additional benefits of device specific support and a C++ environment.

Q> You have support for MP3s, do we need some kind of license to sell games with MP3 music?
A> Not at all, only device and OS manufacturers need to buy such an encode/decode license. As the app uses the native MP3 support of the device, and not an internal decoder, no fee is due.

Q> How hard would it be to make the run-time app (used in tier 1) into a browser plug-in?
A> We are treating browsers as another future platform for us to support. We continue to look at the evolving browser technologies with interest, especially those that promise native performance from the host system.

Q> If I wanted to take advantage of the user's GPS location, would I need a Tier II licence or are these features supported within Tier I?
A. You would need a Tier 2 license, and you would need to learn the platform specific SDK that provides that GPS information.

Q> So, when will we be able to pre-order it and for those of us who do pre-order it will we have to wait until it is officially released to get it or will we be able to get our hands on a beta copy (or pre-release candidate) to start experimenting with?
A> We are not planning to take pre-orders at this time, and warming to the idea of a community discount applied to an early adopter version of AGK. As you would be helping us test the product, you would be automatically given a full price license on completion under this scheme. There will also be a public beta to some degree so you can play around with the tool kit and get a feel for the technology.

Q> Is Kindle going to be one of the targeted platforms?
A> No, Kindle will not be supported for some time. Our primary target are popular mobile and desktop devices that are capable of playing fast games and apps.

Q> When/If the Android platform is supported - how would I take advantage of the Google maps feature? Would I need a T-II licence for this?
A> Yes you would need the Tier 2 product, which allows per-device support of specific features not present in the core engine, such as GPS, Maps, Calendar and other features.

Thanks for the increased interest, we hope to be able to show something more interesting than answers in the next two months!

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
Ched80
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Posted: 26th Feb 2011 01:01
Cheers Lee, That's cleared a lot up for me.

Can't wait to get my hands on this tool!

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Jammy
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Posted: 27th Feb 2011 21:39
Thanks Lee,

As always clear and to the point.

I do think you will have problems with apple, but I hope you can sort them out. Even without Apple, it will be an amazing product.

Just what I have been looking for since Omega Basic (that’s a while).

Can’t wait for the public beta and glad you have decided to go down this route.

Good luck,

Jammy

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 14:16
Will there be support for the Game Center on iOS?

I find this to bring a lot of extra value to my games as I can easily compare my scores to others, and especially my friends. I can also see what games my friends are playing and easily download them.

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fallen one
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2011 00:47
I have 25 iphone apps, so another tool and platform is of interest to me, is there a document with all the commands that this supports, I don't use dark basic, I am not sure if its exactly the same, you say it uses less commands, can we have a list of them so I can get an idea of what I can do with this?


Ched80
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Joined: 18th Sep 2010
Location: Peterborough, UK
Posted: 3rd Mar 2011 09:41
I'd second that - it's hard to plan you app ahead of the release without knowing what can and can't be done. I know some of thew FAQs have covered the limitations, but having a complete (or nearly complete) list of available commands would definately help.

I don't think we need much detail, just a quick sentence on what the purpose of the command is would be enough.

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Veron
17
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Joined: 22nd Nov 2006
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2011 14:56 Edited at: 3rd Mar 2011 14:59
It's pretty much a 2D DBPro. Look at the 2D commands for DBPro to get a vague idea of what to expect. Then factor in the features such as multitouch support, etc.

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fallen one
17
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Joined: 7th Aug 2006
Location: My imagination!
Posted: 4th Mar 2011 16:45
Is there a link to that, some of us are not DB users.


Super Sabueso
14
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Joined: 10th Apr 2010
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Posted: 5th Mar 2011 10:46
How will we be able to follow our game sales?

Hello
Ched80
13
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Joined: 18th Sep 2010
Location: Peterborough, UK
Posted: 5th Mar 2011 12:27
@Super Sabueso: keep checking your bank account

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Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
21
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 6th Mar 2011 11:36 Edited at: 6th Mar 2011 11:37
Will multitouch be supported from start and how will it work? Some example code would be nice.

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abe
18
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Joined: 6th Feb 2006
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Posted: 8th Mar 2011 10:22
"Multiplayer gaming is important to us and we will want to add this in the longer term"

in longue term?
game center,iAD and in app purchase (freemium) are essential to succeed in the apple store.
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
21
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 8th Mar 2011 11:33
Abe:
What is iAD?

I believe that the focus of AppGameKit is to get the basics working on all platforms first and then add in multiplayer features. They want to get the software out there as soon as possible. I also want multiplayer and Game Center support as these things are going to get more and more important.

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