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3 Dimensional Chat / who likes this model?

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lazerus
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Posted: 27th Feb 2011 15:23 Edited at: 27th Feb 2011 15:25
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Right this has gotten far too out of hand. People are being idiots here and the people arguing back more-so.

Quote: ""


THIS model and its design has no thought out principle behind it. Your basically saying its a apple, when you have even asked if its a fruit. Its a block with two extrudes which have been smoothed and each point tapered. Im not taking this out personally on the creator, but it has no skill in its making. Its not uvmapped, the texture has been tilled and has no descerable detail. Its basically a blob. And because someone has actually gave it critisims, people have bandwagon'd in and started trying to defend it. This is not fine art, theres no hidden morale or meaning behind the design. Your basically citing Duchamp and expecting us to back down.

Even if you called it a organic ship from some super high tech race, there will still be race/culture/arictucural design astethics that would be present. Theres no hint toward any structure or motion. Theres nothing at all mate. Im sorry if im sounding like a prick but you must be annoyed that people ahve just barged in and started hissy fitting using your work as the poster boy.

So do grow up people because in this case there is a right and wrong way to create and design something, an yes this is the latter.

Because im not a total asshat, heres something for you to follow and borrow ideas from;

F\' yeah concept art

Concept-ships

How to paint convicing metals

How to quickly do concept work

Take a look through these and practice. When you get stuck or need help post up here and im sure you'll recive help.

-Laz


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
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Seth Black
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 27th Feb 2011 17:58
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...well spoken, Lazerus.

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bruce3371
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Posted: 27th Feb 2011 23:18
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As far as I'm aware, no-one has jumped on any bandwagon, we are simply having a debate about the merits of organic versus human aesthetics in a model. The debate is relevant to the OP because of the organic nature (IMO) of the model.

No-one needs to 'grow up' either, as there is nothing immature, or idiotic, about a healthy debate.

If this was anything other than a simple debate, a mod would have come by and locked this thread long ago.

And now, just because certain people can't handle the fact that people are perfectly entitled to having a debate when opinions differ, this is most likely going to turn into a flamewar, thus giving the mods the excuse they didn't previously have, to lock this thread!

Seriously people, if you can't handle the heat, then stay out of the kitchen!!

Now I'm going to leave it at that, with a sick feeling in my stomach, because of people trying to stifle my freedom of expression, congratulations!

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lazerus
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 00:14 Edited at: 28th Feb 2011 00:22
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You'v basically fodded off every other opinion by ethier reversing the point or giving a poor comprasion. Several respected artist have told you otherwise and gave well educated responses to why a ship or anything else you create has certain merits and check boxes it must fulfill to have a certain role.

Just to sum up what your saying, Point, case, argument.



There all alien so it don't matter that they make no sense.


Quote: "Now I'm going to leave it at that, with a sick feeling in my stomach, because of people trying to stifle my freedom of expression, congratulations!"


Nope not trying to stifle, trying to direct it to a more concivable angle, that can be used pratcially. You dont seem to realise that you can have an opinion and it can be wrong.

You said earlier in the thread that the ships from alien couldnt fly and had no human logic. Did you know Giger, the lead artist and designer of alien had a unhealthly obsession with all things realted to sex? All of his work is based around it, even his landscapes, ships and 'alien' itself was realted to the human anatomy in some way, that and his pervese fantasies. So your point is null and void from the start.

The stealth bomber design incorporates critical aspects of a bomber. Large bay for payloads. High speed, wingspan, window, engines. The technically it shouldnt be able to fly bit dosnt work. When a human steps theres something like 1000+ calculations done subconciously more so on obsticles, so anything without the right control system will not work and the fact that it does fly makes it a useless comparasion.

Im not doing this to start a flame war but baby pampering a new artist isnt going to help them at all. Critical understanding and cold mostly un-biased tearing apart of your work tells you exactly where your going wrong and how you can improve. You need that to progress as a artst and in real life as a person. Hence the reason i passed on links from my own reference libary at the end of my last post. We're not doing it to be pricks we're doing it so he knows what to do.

Also lastly to answer your gib, i am chef.


http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/

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Ortu
DBPro Master
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 02:43
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honestly, nothing about it suggests organic design to me. rounded edges and a lack of mechanical/technological components doesn't make it organic. Even organic structures are made up of various components of different design and function.

If you want to keep this smooth simple form, fine, but the utter lack of any detail is always going to cause you problems as clearly seen by the opinions in this thread. give the texture some variation, perhaps go with a chitinous look, you could put the green glowy lines on a surrounding mesh out from the surface to give it a shield/field look, whatever but the simple, plain black really needs added detail.


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bruce3371
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 03:59 Edited at: 28th Feb 2011 04:02
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Quote: "fodded off"


Pardon?

Quote: "gave well educated responses"


IMO so have I.

Quote: "Just to sum up what your saying, Point, case, argument.

(Picture of rectangles)

There all alien so it don't matter that they make no sense."


WTF? Maybe it's because it's 2:30 AM and I'm tired, but that just flew right over my head!! Please explain further what you mean by that.

Quote: "poor comparison"


In your opinion. In my opinion Babylon 5 and certain ships from Star Trek are good comparisions.

Quote: "You said earlier in the thread that the ships from alien couldnt fly and had no human logic."


Quote: "In human terms, that horse-shoe shaped 'Space-Jockey' ship from the film ALIEN (not the military transport from the film ALIENS) could never fly, but with alien technology on board, it obviously could."

Quote: "it obviously could"

Quote: "could"


Seriously, did you even bother to read the full paragraph?

Quote: "So your point is null and void from the start. "


The point would only have been null and void if the ship from Alien was the only example I cited. However it wasn't, as I also cited examples from Babylon 5 and Star Trek.

Quote: "Lecture about Giger's art"


I have prints of Giger's work, so yes, I do know about his influences.

Quote: "You dont seem to realise that you can have an opinion and it can be wrong. "


I am fully aware that there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion, at no point have I said that other people's opinions are wrong, I have merely been stating my own opinions in response to other people stating theirs. I believe that is the whole point of a debate?

Quote: "The stealth bomber design incorporates critical aspects of a bomber. Large bay for payloads. High speed, wingspan, window, engines. The technically it shouldnt be able to fly bit dosnt work. When a human steps theres something like 1000+ calculations done subconciously more so on obsticles, so anything without the right control system will not work and the fact that it does fly makes it a useless comparasion."


Quote: "So does the shape of the F117 Stealth fighter, and yet it still flies!!

It's an alien ship with alien technology, it doesn't have to follow the rules of human logic/physics.

Just look at the alien ship in the film Alien. If we applied human logic/physics to that, then that would never have flown!!"


Quote: "So does the shape of the F117 Stealth fighter, and yet it still flies!!

It's an alien ship with alien technology, it doesn't have to follow the rules of human logic/physics.

Just look at the alien ship in the film Alien. If we applied human logic/physics to that, then that would never have flown!!"



Quote: "The technically it shouldnt be able to fly bit dosnt work."


The only reason it might not work, is because you took that one sentence out of context of the rest of the quotes, which I have provided above. I suggest that if you re-read the full quotes, you will get a better understanding of the point I was trying to make.

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xilith117
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 04:58
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Thank you Lazarus. you have been quite helpful. you people have apparently forgotten ,thanks to this this unfortunate semi-flame war, that the whole point of this thread was to see what people think about it- not to give me a pat on the back for my lack of skill. honestly there does not need to be a fight as most of you have valid points. it is not necessary for us to argue about the ships on ALIEN or the design of a stealth bomber or nitpick each-others posts apart just for the sake of proving someone wrong. i appreciate the input i have received and i would like to extend an apology to those who have fought valiantly on my side, thinking they were helping me and perhaps saving my self esteem or pride, but your help is not needed. i understand that i am not as skilled as some others on this forum and i am OK with that.i have learned a great deal from this and have bettered my self from it. i thank those of you who have helped.
with that being said ; i would like to point out that some of you HAVE been overly critical and really unhelpful. "piece of shirt" was what primal beans called it, and several others said things that were truly unnecessary, this thread was intended as a place for people to help me NOT a place for people to simply tell me i suck and not offer help. telling me that my model is bad and offering some advice to help would be great- perfectly acceptable- but to insult me without any intention of helping the problem is completely uncalled for. I thank you all for your time and hope that i have repaired this thread a little.

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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 07:39
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im sorry for calling it a peice of shirt... lol i think i might have been one of the first to comment honestly on what i thought. I think my irritation was a bit heightened in that post and i was not itentionally trying to hurt feelings. I was more frustrated as lazerus stated that people think that by buttering you up that they are helping when they arnt. Anyway if there are any hard feelings i can understand but it was not my intention to put anyone down.

Sorry.

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VoicesDark
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 09:04
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Xilith117: Have you ever seen the TV series Earth: Final conflict that was on years ago? if you haven't then check out this link to a photo of it.

http://old.scottg26.com/images/EFC/Mothership_02.jpg

Other than merely by the basic shape being larger in the rear and smaller in the front do you even know what end is which. It is mostly transparent and so alien that you could not possibly guess how anything on it works without them explaining in storyline.

Organic or Non-organic really doesn't matter much as far as design except that nothing in nature has a perfectly straight line. Really there's only a few things you really have to consider in ship design:

1) Purpose:

2) Environment: (you said spaceship, but can it land or fly in the atmosphere these environments have to be considered as well)

3) Crew: (if it doesn't have a crew because say it's a completely self sufficient organic entity can a crew go inside it...I.E. The lexx From the TV show Lexx)

4) Propulsion: How does it move? What is it's fuel? What environments does it need to be able to function in)

5) Functionality: I.E. can the crew get from point a to point b in s at least semi-logical fashion. Does the ship have the equipment it needs or can it be modified if needed.

Once you have these basic things covered then the ascetics of it are merely whatever you like and how much of it should be a "no brainer" for people to figure out and how much of it has to be explained.

The one thing about the design you have now is that you said it has a plasma Argon propulsion system and that is the purpose of the secondary structure in the back. How exactly did you envision that working?? I'm asking because it actually gave me a really good idea of how you could slightly modify what you have so far and make something really unique tech wise.
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xilith117
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 16:38 Edited at: 20th Mar 2011 18:20
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no hard feelings PrimalBeans. i was simply using that comment as an example. its not the end of the world- i have never seen shirts as a bad thing (unless on a sexy chick)

oh, and VoicesDark: my idea was only loosly based on real science since after all, if the idea is something that man already knows works it wont be uniqe and futuristic, it would be plain and pre-existing. with that being said, my idea whas that the plasmic argon channel between the main body and the rear pod could cause an electro-magnetic feild between them and propel the ship forward kindof like a rail gun or a maglev (but self contained and not reqireing contact with magnets.)[that mothership was frickin' awsome]

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bruce3371
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2011 02:56
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@ xilith117;

I apologise if I contributed towards hijacking your thread. I still stand by what I said about alien/organic versus human aesthetics, but I will say no more on that subject.

I must admit, I do tend to get a bit carried away when a debate starts. Like a lot of people, pride and stubborness prevent me from backing down, so I tend to drag a debate on longer than necessary!

Anyway, I think if you ignore the debate, there are some good pieces of advice in this thread for your model, and also, any future models that you make. I hope to see some more of your work, and it will be interesting to see how your modelling skills improve

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xilith117
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2011 16:34 Edited at: 14th Mar 2011 16:33
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@bruce3371- thank you. (at least you were on the positive side )

OK. so, does anyone think most of my problems could be solved by just doing a good texture job? or do you guys think its a complete redo?

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xilith117
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Posted: 16th Mar 2011 02:34
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if i made it look like this would it be a little better? (please note that this is only a rough concept sketch)


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PrimalBeans
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Posted: 16th Mar 2011 05:07
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Hmmm that looks cool... im still think there could be more to it though... the texture you had was really just not right... this is a bit more plausible. (See how little details can make big improvements?) I think your on the right track... btw what are you using to model and how comfortable are you with it?? It seems that your ok in photoshop or gimp (whichever) so maybe your biggest wall is the tools your use or how familiar you are with them. Im a blender person myself so im not really much good for help on anything else but i can help with that...

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xilith117
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Posted: 16th Mar 2011 16:41 Edited at: 16th Mar 2011 16:45
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i use blender too. to be honest i only understand about 50% of the interface. still learning. Don't mistake my reasoning for the ships simplicity though: i really did want it simple, my skills are more advanced than torso shaped blobs i would appreciate a little blender help nevertheless. also- you are correct in the assumption that i am decent at gimp. i really don't think this project has actually been held back by my skill a whole lot...idk. just what i think.

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