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Geek Culture / Leadwerks for Linux Kickstarter Campaign!

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:09
Hey guys and gals who use and love Linux!

Guess what mighty and awesome game engine is coming to Linux (just pretend I didn't already tell you in the title!)? That's right, Leadwerks is!

By backing the project on the Kickstarter campaign here, you can help an underused, often overlooked operating system get the game development attention it needs and desires!

This is AWESOME because it means you can build games in a friendly, easy-to-use engine for Linux, ON Linux! No more having to use Windows to create games for Linux through some complicated process. No more having to use native C++ and OpenGL to make the next decent-looking 3D game for the platform! You can just open it up and begin creating it right then and there, on your favorite OS!

Please back it. This is a huge step for Linux!

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:17
Do we have to be on Linux to develop for Linux, or can it be multi-platform?
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:22
I'm pretty sure it can be multi-platform. I think there's already a version of Leadwerks for Mac and Windows, and this is campaign is to gather the resources for porting it over to Linux. I'm sure they'll have an export for Linux option in the other versions eventually!

Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:23
@CoffeeGrunt
Quote: "It’s not enough just to export games to Linux. We want to put the game development process on Linux, so you can build and play games, without ever leaving the Linux operating system."

From that I'm assuming it was always possible to develop for Linux on Windows. I don't know anything about the technical differences between Win and Linux games.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jun 2013 23:35
Hmm, this sounds interesting. Might wanna ask Valve for a few bucks, they're big on Linux right now.
TheComet
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 00:25
If more stuff like this gets backed, I'd say the Windows operating system will be no more (for consumers). Businesses will still be using Windows for a long time.

Quote: "I don't know anything about the technical differences between Win and Linux games."


From the little experience I have with C++ in this area, the only difference (for you as a programmer) is when working with OS APIs such as DirectX/OpenGL, Window managers, file systems, network connections, and DLL exports. Stuff like that.

TheComet


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 00:59
Hmm, this looks like a decent cause. I think I'll back this. (I got your FB tag Yoda ).

I was once tempted by Leadwerks, not sure why I never actually tried it out. I love Linux as well, whilst my current project is in Unity3D, I think it's worth supporting at least.

Also, I think it's something TGCers should back, Leadwerks has been our friend for years even if they now have their own game dev tools for sale.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 17th Jun 2013 01:21
Quote: "If more stuff like this gets backed, I'd say the Windows operating system will be no more (for consumers)."


Yeah, true that! I mean, it'll take a while, but with Microsoft sort of turning into an even worse Apple ("Our way or no way!"), a lot of customers aren't very happy with them lately...

Quote: "Hmm, this looks like a decent cause. I think I'll back this. (I got your FB tag Yoda ). "


Yay, thank you fellow backer!

Quote: "I was once tempted by Leadwerks, not sure why I never actually tried it out."


Yeah, I think what stopped me from trying it all those years ago (back when it was a featured thread on these forums) was the fact that I REALLY wanted to finish my project in DBP, which never happened. Then I sort of forgot about it for a couple of years, then went to Unity3D. I think Unit3D is still better than Leadwerks, but I'm so glad Leadwerks are taking the jump to Linux and I'm definitely going to learn the software and Lua as much as I can now, so that I can at least make something when I get the software.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 01:37
I am already familiar with Lua (used it in DBP) and somewhat familiar with C++ (I manage procedural code fine, but my classes tend to trip me up). If in design it is similar to how Unity operates, I might be tempted as Unity has shader restrictions. However, that said my project was already started in Unity 3d and was transferred from DBP, so a third switch would seem daft, but I'll download the demo and see how well it works for a smaller project. If I like it, I may back $200, otherwise it might just be a smaller supportive backing to see more games on Linux.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 17th Jun 2013 06:56 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 07:02
It seems a bit more simplistic of an interface, compared to Unity. That's not a bad thing, but the demo seems to have restrictions. I can't seem to start a new project without it wanting to run the pre-made dungeon crawler demo... hmm.

EDIT: Oh duh, got it figured out. Needed to open the project manager. That's what I get for trying to do this late at night.

Either way, I think I might switch to it, because it looks a lot easier to use than Unity.

mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 10:02
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

44.85% Windows 7
37.74% Windows XP
7.06% OS X
4.51% Windows Vista
4.27% Windows 8
1.26% Linux
2.14% Other

I think that comparsion is enough to explain why Linux and Mac are NOT worth to port/develop anything.

Also I'd say that OGRE is very popular, I've bought some nice games (not digital btw) made on it, but Leadwerks... it's popularity like Linux for gamers, IYKWIM

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 10:28
I think one of the reasons Linux is less popular is due to lack of support. Valve have been trying to increase popularity on Linux and some game engine developers and indie developers are looking to support Linux as a platform.

MacOSX is already a platform developed on as well, whilst games are not as extensive on Mac as they are on Windows, however, there's plenty to keep any Mac user happy, if not then there's always the option to dual boot.

Development tools on Linux are somewhat limited, given the current growing interest in Linux, it would seem sensible for somebody like Leadwerks to try and give support because it currently doesn't have many competitors on Linux. Sure Unity3D will export to Linux, but at the moment it lacks native Linux support, whereas Leadwerks is looking to work in Linux natively.

mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 12:13
Quote: "given the current growing interest in Linux"

1.26% Linux means that GAMERS are less than 1.26%
Are you sure it is worth to make a game port for <1% gamers?

Until Linux became popular among at least 25% home users, not sys admins who use linux for work!, there is no sense to look at that direction.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 12:37
Quote: "Until Linux became popular among at least 25% home users, not sys admins who use linux for work!, there is no sense to look at that direction."
I think the goal is to get Linux to that point; it really doesn't look like it will get there at the current rate unless something changes.
mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 14:20
Quote: "unless something changes."

You see, it can gain popularity within one week if (divine intervention!) people will realise that they REALLY NEED Linux.

Now it is more like if you have a cat why don't you have a crocodile? Some people really have crocs in their pools.

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Indicium
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 15:08
Well I'll be moving over to Linux soon enough when I have time to install it and get settled. So that's one gamer from Windows to Linux, a lot of others might be doing the same.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 16:04
Quote: "1.26% Linux means that GAMERS are less than 1.26%
Are you sure it is worth to make a game port for <1% gamers?"



...You do realize that a LOT of Linux users dual-boot with Windows, usually to be able to game, right? And that that 1.26% is still hundreds of thousands (if not over a million) users who would appreciate being able to create games on their favorite OS?

It is absolutely 100% worth it for Leadwerks to do this. If it wasn't worth doing, why do you think Valve would have spent so much time porting Steam to Linux, which already has 100 games for it?

TheComet
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 18:29
Oh come on. Linux is at about 5% now.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Besides, those numbers aren't accurate anyway, because Microsoft dominates most of the business world too. If you only looked at consumer electronics, there would be a lot more Linux users.

TheComet


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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 20:35
Quote: "...You do realize that a LOT of Linux users dual-boot with Windows"


Which means that despite their efforts to use Linux, in the end they have to fall back on Windows.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jun 2013 20:49 Edited at: 17th Jun 2013 20:55
Quote: "1.26% Linux means that GAMERS are less than 1.26%
Are you sure it is worth to make a game port for <1% gamers?"


I don't think your figures are accurate. However, the problem with your train of thought is perhaps similar to many business, where you're looking at appealing to the markets and weighing how much money you're going to make and thinking how much effort each market is worth. Which is fine if you're looking to gain a bigger return.

But it's not the only train of thought when it comes to making products, but it does seem to be the kind of thinking that has kept Linux's popularity low. Frankly, Windows dominates the PC game market, but there's nothing about Linux as an OS that would make it inferior. So Windows is the biggest market to shoot for.

Another mentality, however, is about changing markets or changing the game. For a large scale example, Apple is somebody with a reputation to invest in seemingly small markets, for example, the tablet PC market, tablet PCs have been around for a long time, even ones with a touch interface, but the market was small and very few computer users had a tablet PC. When the iPad game out, it suddenly changed the market, it ticked so many boxes that previous tablets didn't, plus Apple's marketing, managed to turn the market into something incredibly profitable for Apple and their competitors.

Of course, I don't expect Leadwerks to do the same with Linux, but it demonstrates how one can find an advantage in investing in a medium you believe in. Basically Valve have started promoting Linux as a platform for gaming and since the release of Windows 8 it would seem their vision is too boost the competition from Linux. In order for Valve to be successful, they need the support of other developers and it would seem in an ideal world for it to snowball into much wider support for Linux games (which seems to happen for Mac, whilst the majority of games are PC-only, there's still a lot of games for the Mac, even AAA titles). Even if the ideal goal isn't reached, more people could be converted to Linux.

Leadwerks seems to be one of the developers to be out to support the cause and well, if their engine is ported to Linux, it would be an excellent contribution because there are no tools like it on Linux (Ogre & Irrlicht are graphics engines, not game making software). On PC and Mac, however, there's quite a few. For some game makers it could entice them to go Linux completely for their development, because they'd still be able to compile to Mac & PC (I assume). This would be the case even for some members here. If the market does improve for Linux, with Leadwerks getting in early too, that could mean a boost in popularity as well, at least I assume that's what JoshK wants to achieve as well. Whilst Unity3D has Linux support, Leadwerks is filling the niche that it'll have native Linux support, which seems to be the emphasis in the Kickstarter video. You can't develop Unity games on Linux, only for Linux. Of course, Unity3D may eventually have native support, I mean once upon a time it was available on Mac with the ability to build for Windows, but not to develop on Windows.

Still, 5% of an OS market, even if you assume 3% of them download/buy games and assume you manage to reach 50% of the Linux gamer market at present (or hey, 30%), you are still looking at a good number of gamers. More than I could to hope for developing on Windows. Is it likely I could reach a higher percentage? Well, the choice of games on Linux is currently a lot smaller than PC, so if it's a good quality game, it is more likely to stand out. Like releasing an App for Windows Phone 7 vs Android, your game could get lost in the ether with Android, but on WP7, there's very few quality games on there.


Quote: "Which means that despite their efforts to use Linux, in the end they have to fall back on Windows."


This is true. I dual boot Linux myself. I think I am more likely to be able to single boot in Mac OS X than I am Linux...though I am a PC gamer, so Windows is agiven. And I like Windows, so I have no problem using it. Development wise, unless the tools I use go Linux, I will rely on Windows. That said, I think Linux is a fantastic OS, I think the principles behind it are noble and I would like to see it gain popularity and gain the support of developers and to be able to bring some competition to the table. As an OS it's not inferior, but for software compatability, it's seriously lacking in the support of developers. I think if made more popular, it would actually bring a lot more variety and choice in the PC OS market and I think it would make it a lot more interesting.

mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 00:30
Quote: "Oh come on. Linux is at about 5% now."

Okay. That approx. means from 1 to 5 out of 100 people.

But making a Linux exclusive to popularize Linux as a gaming platform, like a console dev usually do, in Linux case it is incredibly hard and risky. No serious publisher/dev will do that today.

Linux has a great potential - Wine. If Wine will reach 100% of compatibility, I'll go for Linux. Until that I am not interested at all.

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 00:35
Linux is awesome - but I can't wrap my head around it, it is way too complicated and messy for casual usage.

thus - i stick to windows, but i do support every kind of support linux gets!

Also, I will pledge 50$.. or 100$ - i talked to the dev, and he said I could get a windows version of the 50$ tier atleast. If I can convince him to give me the windows version of 100$ tier, I might be interested ^^



Whose eyes are those eyes?
mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 00:50
Quote: "Linux is awesome - but I can't wrap my head around it, it is way too complicated and messy for casual usage."

What's so awesome? If you have problems with OS usage - it's not awesome...

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 00:56
Quote: "Okay. That approx. means from 1 to 5 out of 100 people."

Riiight... because literally millions of people are now equal to one hundred. Something's wrong with your math, me thinks... Ubuntu alone has over 12 MILLION users. 12 MILLION.

Quote: "But making a Linux exclusive to popularize Linux as a gaming platform, like a console dev usually do, in Linux case it is incredibly hard and risky. No serious publisher/dev will do that today"


I guess you've missed the whole thing about Valve making STEAM available on Linux? I guess they're not a "serious publisher"?

We get it mr Handy, you don't like Linux, and apparently think this isn't a serious project, or that it isn't worthy. But next time you try to quote facts or make approximations, I highly suggest you do some Googling.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 01:06 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 01:07
Talking of Valve/Steam. I'll just pick a few highly popular titles by serious devs from the Linux section of Steam (mostly indie):

Brutal Legend
Killing Floor
Postal 2
Half Life
Counter Strike
Dungeon Defenders
Trine 2
Legend of Grimrock
Crusader Kings 2
X3
Don't Starve
Anna
Awesomenauts
Shank
Beat Hazard
Bastion
The Journey Down


Yes, it's a risk, but risks are how markets are made or grow. Not all businesses are about doing what they know sells, they'll make some risks if they think it's worth trying.

It seems Valve are trying to pioneer in Linux games and they've got some support from developers and more are supporting it.

Indicium
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 01:35
Quote: "Riiight... because literally millions of people are now equal to one hundred. Something's wrong with your math, me thinks.."


You're not familiar with the concept of percentages, then?

I don't think anyone intends to make a linux exclusive, considering the goal is to be completely cross platform - but the thing keeping people from Linux is compatibility, and that's now improving.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
The Zoq2
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 01:38
Personaly, I would love to use linux, just this year I have been realy close to making the switch 5 or 6 times because of windows issues. However, what keeps me back is the lack of compatible programs/games which is improving. I might dualboot it soon though
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 01:59
Quote: "You're not familiar with the concept of percentages, then?"


I quite am, the problem is that he said this...
Quote: "That approx. means from 1 to 5 out of 100 people"


instead of saying "percent". Either way, he's still just trying to be a naysayer about Linux, and in a thread about something very Linux-centric it's frankly very annoying.

Indicium
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 02:37
But that's the analogy when talking about a percentage of a population, you break it down to the lowest number.

For example, if I say 50% of the population is female, then I'd also be quite right in saying 1 in 2 people are female - I understand that once again Handy is trolling for the sake of it, but we need to at least call him on the stuff he's wrong about.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 03:06
Quote: "Which means that despite their efforts to use Linux, in the end they have to fall back on Windows."

And then Benjamin read the title of this thread... and everything changed.

I dual boot Windows, why? DB and a few Steam games, that's it. For office stuff, graphics, the rest of my games, and all other programming stuff I use Linux. It is simply a more pleasant environment for me in every way.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 03:20
Quote: "And then Benjamin read the title of this thread... and everything changed."


Will a small indie engine change everything?

I like Linux (Ubuntu, specifically), but it doesn't really offer me anything that Windows doesn't, apart from being free and lacking driver support.

"Sideboobs are awesome. Getting punched in the face is not." - Jerico2Day on violence and nudity
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 03:44
@Indicium: Ah, I see what you're saying. I misunderstood earlier. I know that's the analogy, I thought you meant something different.

Quote: "Will a small indie engine change everything?"


It might! You never know.


Quote: "I like Linux (Ubuntu, specifically), but it doesn't really offer me anything that Windows doesn't, apart from being free and lacking driver support."


I found that quite humorous.

Quote: "For office stuff, graphics, the rest of my games, and all other programming stuff I use Linux. It is simply a more pleasant environment for me in every way."


OBese, I feel the same way! Have you tried Linux Mint? I love that distro! It's probably my favorite!

Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 03:46
Well no, Steam is way more influential but this is also good news.

Quote: "but it doesn't really offer me anything that Windows doesn't"

This is a fair point. I can't think of anything that is exclusive to Linux, people aren't going to use Linux because they have to.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 09:09 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 10:18
Linux is awesome. I hope one day all current games will be 100% supported by Wine, and the new ones will have Linux version as their main.

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 12:55
Quote: "I found that quite humorous. "
¨

I must say that I agree though, it does not offer me anything that windows does.



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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 14:34 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 14:42
Gaming was literally the only thing I used Windows for, and after it spouted a load of nonsensical error messages at me and then refused to accept my license key when I re-installed, I ditched it for good.

While there are a few titles I miss playing, the games I play most are already Linux-native, or 100% compatible. Just about the only games that don't play well these days are the big AAA titles (BF3 etc.) that I really couldn't give a damn about. Quake Live, Unreal Tournament, DotA 2, TF2, World of Warcraft and Starcraft 2 all work perfectly on Debian - I literally couldn't be happier.

I think there's an awkward middle ground where Windows seems to be the best choice. For casual users there is really no point in shelling out for a Windows license. When I cleaned up my girlfriend's laptop I dumped Crunchbang on it and she hasn't had a problem since. Fans never spin up too high, and there are no slowdowns whatsoever. For browsing and word processing, Linux does just fine. If my girlfriend can figure out how to work Crunchbang, then I think anyone can manage.

At the other end of the spectrum are the power users who do a lot of development stuff. Want to hack some hardware? Easy. Need to SSH into a remote machine? Easy. Have to run a massively parallel computation on lots of machines? Fairly straightforward. I can fine tune my system to be exactly how I want it. After the PRISM incident I'm pretty reluctant to support Microsoft with my wallet again.

In that vein, I notice a lot of new Linux users like to jump on the Microsoft-hate bandwagon. There's nothing that irks me more than a bunch of ignorant, uninformed Windows users flinging ridiculous claims against a group of equally uninformed Linux newcomers, who fling equally ridiculous crap back. The same with the hate towards and from Mac users. I've used all three (and a fair amount of BSD too) thoroughly and have to say the Windows, in my opinion, is the clear underdog for what I want to do. That's not to say it doesn't have its place though.

Valve doesn't actually give a rat's a*** about whether gaming on Linux desktops takes off (a little harsh, they are dedicated to their support). They're using Linux to drastically reduce the cost of shipping their Steambox (and all the power to them!) by negating the need for a Windows license. But if it helps gaming on Mac and Linux take off, I will put my meager assets behind them.

We have some amazing cross-platform libraries, and if these are chosen from the get-go, there's no reason why we can't have decent cross-platform games. Unfortunately when it comes to OS APIs, Windows is the odd one out. While the UI APIs in OSX are drastically different from Linux (though QT apps are compatible), all the behind-scenes stuff (networking, file system etc.) is pretty similar and thus easy to port from one *nix to another. Windows, on the other hand, only has the aging win32 OS APIs available. Each has their advantages, but a lot of developers find the way Windows handles various things to be pretty archaic. I haven't much Windows dev experience so I can't really comment on this.


The bottom line is that the big companies couldn't care less about what the gamers have to say on internet forums. The battle is fought not with the internet, but with our wallets. Money talks, companies listen. If you really want gaming on Linux to take off, buy stuff! Buy Windows-free PCs. Don't buy games without Linux ports.

mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 15:47
@TheWilderbeast
Quote: "Don't buy games without Linux ports."

You don't know about Wine?

I think the only solution is to put Wine Project to Kickstarter and make it complete. Then there will be no need in Linux ports.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 16:53
Quote: "I think that comparsion is enough to explain why Linux and Mac are NOT worth to port/develop anything."


That comparison means nothing - besides being out of date. If there are only 1/5th the amount of Mac users as PC, then why does that scare you? - Do you know the amount of software available on PC compared to Mac?
Let me just say, it's more than 5 times!

The factor that decides if a platform is worth spending time on is the market potential. If you concentrate on percentages, you can't complain about the numbers at the end, because percentages of OS usage is no indicator of percentages of sales, or user attitude, or user appreciation, loyalty, vocality. This is the reality of developing solely for PC - your basically a small fish in an infinitely large bowl - with the Mac and Linux, you're still just a small fish, but the bowl is more like a barrel. If you need some fish, it's easier and more reliable to get them from the barrel than to cast out a line, IYKWIM.

Besides, even just attempting Mac and Linux versions might show that Leadwerks wants to be on the main platforms, wants to be on consoles and iOS just like it's old mate UDK - it's a lot easier for a developer to justify using a platform if it looks like it'll allow for easy porting to new or financially viable platforms.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 17:10
I thought the point of frameworks like Leadwerks was that it was a write-once distribute to many platforms sort of deal?

Why then is linux/mac only being a 1/4 of the sales an issue, when it doesn't cost much more to release them onto those platforms?

mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 17:30
I may be wrong, but I believe that game engines such Leadwerks, Unity or DBP will emulate flawlessly in Wine. No?

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 17:34
Quote: "I may be wrong, but I believe that game engines such Leadwerks, Unity or DBP will emulate flawlessly in Wine. No?"


But engines like Unity can port to different platforms without any (or very few) changes made by the developer.

What would be the point in running things in Wine if there was a 'Port to Linux' button on programs like Unity or Leadwerks?

Also running things in Wine isn't ideal for the consumer.

mr Handy
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 17:43
Quote: "What would be the point in running things in Wine"

Convenience? A single appliction to run all games. A single distributive for both platforms.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 18:28
Quote: "Convenience? A single appliction to run all games. A single distributive for both platforms."


For who? The developer? Surely its easier for the consumer just to have something they can run, rather than setting up Wine.

Also the problem with something like Wine is that its not absolutely guaranteed to work, or give you the same performance you would get from something written specifically for the platform.

I honestly think the majority of linux users would prefer a developer create a dedicated executable for their platform, rather than using something like Wine to run a windows exe.

TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 18:43
Quote: "I must say that I agree though, it does not offer me anything that windows does."


Should that be "does not"? Or are you really saying Linux does not offer anything windows does offer?

Assuming you said "it does not offer me anything that windows does not":

-No need to run antivirus software and slow your computer down by 40%
-Far better support for media of any kind, minus games
-Far less resource heavy, the space the OS takes on HDD and RAM is smaller

The reason why Windows appears to have everything is because a lot of stuff has been ported from Linux. Just looking through my start menu here, Code::Blocks, Blender, Gimp, Audacity, Libreoffice, VLC, Git... I don't have a lot of Windows-only tools on my computer.

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Quik
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:07
Quote: "-No need to run antivirus software and slow your computer down by 40%"


and that immediatly changes when it becomes mainstream.

Quote: "-Far better support for media of any kind, minus games"


may so be, but then again... Do I NEED better support for media then windows already has?

Quote: "-Far less resource heavy, the space the OS takes on HDD and RAM is smaller
"



may so be, but.. once again - do I NEED this?



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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:12 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 19:21
Quote: "The reason why Windows appears to have everything is because a lot of stuff has been ported from Linux. Just looking through my start menu here, Code::Blocks, Blender, Gimp, Inkscape, Audacity, Libreoffice, VLC, Git... I don't have a lot of Windows-only tools on my computer."

This is the reason no one will ever be "forced" to use Linux. Do we need to be forced though? The fact Linux is free is a pretty big incentive to at least give it a try. Whenever I search for something on a Linux forum there are dozens and dozens of people from Asia, South America and Africa. They will all take up Linux while us Western cronies cling to Word97 because we are "used to it". People in poorer countries tend to be more practical and I don't think they will see any value in buying Windows.

Quote: "Quote: "-No need to run antivirus software and slow your computer down by 40%"

and that immediatly changes when it becomes mainstream."

I don't understand the technical details but Linux seems so much more secure than Windows. Windows security is a façade, you get a pop-up window for running pretty much any program and all it requires for security authentication is for you to click a button. Meanwhile, Linux actually understands which actions are going to affect the PC and asks for an administrator password before performing the changes.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:14
Quote: "-No need to run antivirus software and slow your computer down by 40%"


Actually, I do think this is in part due to it being such a niche OS. Of course it is probably a much more secure OS, yes.

Quote: "-Far better support for media of any kind, minus games"


Not entirely sure what you mean by this. Windows has a huge library of drivers for media devices, and a lot of media-related software, some of which Linux could never dream to have because it's commercial and Linux software generally is not.

Quote: "-Far less resource heavy, the space the OS takes on HDD and RAM is smaller"


I guess so, but with the low cost of RAM and HDD space I don't really think it's much of an issue. It's certainly nothing the average user has to worry about.

I think both Windows and Linux have similar capabilities (except the latter does lack driver support, games, and some other software), but if you buy a prefab computer as most of us do, it'll have Windows on it already so you won't have to shell out $200 for a licence. It'd help if computers with Linux pre-installed had a discount on the order of 20% or so.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:23 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 19:24
I think arguing against using Windows over using Linux is like arguing over Mac vs Windows. The only genuine argument anyone can really put forward to either Mac vs Windows is personal preference.

Either that, or you need to use Mac, Windows or Linux specifically for a certain thing that your favorite operating system can't do.

I use windows at home and I develop on a mac at work, and to be honest with you after a while I stop noticing the difference!

The Zoq2
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:24
Quote: "ce I don't really think it's much of an issue. It's certainly nothing the average user has to worry about."


Well, before I upgraded my RAM, windows took up 2gb + the 1gb that was never used of my 6gb of avalible ram. And now that I have an SSD with limited space, having a 25gb OS folder is not optimal
TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jun 2013 19:34 Edited at: 18th Jun 2013 19:35
The only reason why I'm using Windows is because there are windows-only tools which I need to use. That's basically it.

Quote: "Not entirely sure what you mean by this. Windows has a huge library of drivers for media devices, and a lot of media-related software, some of which Linux could never dream to have because it's commercial and Linux software generally is not."


Like what?

Native Windows does not support
-Ripping DVDs and Blueray
-Burning DVDs and CDs (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Playback of numerous, well known formats such as ogg, flac, gif, ogv, and apng
-Compression formats like 7z, tar, gz, rar (Seriously, who uses zip today? It's twice the size as 7z)

This argument is so pointless, because "Linux" can be anything. Who knows what modules and packages are shipped with which version of Linux?

Basically, this is about Windows vs The entire Linux community. There's no way Windows stands a chance against that.

In the end, it comes down to what BiggAdd said.

TheComet


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