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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Ouya Adventures

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Lavaflyer
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 03:56 Edited at: 16th Jul 2013 03:59
Quick questions, I've never owned a playstation or xbox but I hear the ps3 dualshock 3 is the best controlller for the ouya, Is this true, I'm thinking of getting one (I poorly chose to buy 3 ouya controllers which often have input lag despite there $50.00 price point which bugs and disappoints me)!

I was wondering a few things, has anyone tested hockeykid's modified player with any controllers other than the ouya ones', does it work at all?

Also TGC, will the official agk player support ouya, xbox, and ps3 controllers?

Finally, have any (or all) of you guys experienced very bad controller lag (sometimes my wifi is bad too) on there new ouya's like me? - I was hoping the little device would work a bit better, hopefully nothing a good firmware update could fix(Please come sOON!). Thanks, Lavaflyer.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 09:01 Edited at: 16th Jul 2013 09:06
Paul:
I brought this up on the Ouya dev forum and they work around this problem by setting the frame buffer smaller and then the Tegra 3 upscales it to 1080p. Sounds like something you should look into, at least for v2.

Quote: "You can set the frame buffer to any resolution you like, the Tegra 3 chipset then hardware scales that for you to 1080p, (or whatever the native resolution of your TV is). I haven't been able to determine how much of a hit this scaling is, (it does seem to be extremely efficient), but it is invisible to your code and is an absolute requirement."



Lavaflyer:
The advantage of using a PS3 controller is that they use bluetooth so you can make it work quite easily with the Ouya. The 360 controller needs either a wired one or an adapter.

I have quite a bit of controller lag. Now I have read but not tested that the problem is the metal casing on Ouya and that you can improve the signal by tilting the Ouya forwards so the top faces you. Also the angling of the controller may improve signal. Someone said he had less lag by tilting the controller up, back facing your Ouya.

apocolyp4
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 15:00
Lavaflyer I can confirm that the agk player not only supports ouya, xbox, and ps3 controllers, but you can also use them all at the same time. When I was play testing my game Acorn Warriors at the game jam I was using 2 Ouya, 1 PS3, and 1 wired Xbox 360 controller as the same time. The wired Xbox 360 controller is the easiest to set up as all you need to do is plug it in.
fog
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 17:52 Edited at: 16th Jul 2013 17:53
@Digital Awakening

Just looking at the low resolution you intend to use and how close to the edge some of the UI elements are in your game (still looking great BTW), don't forget on Ouya you need to allow for a 10% safe-area around your game.

Nothing in that outer 10% is guaranteed to show on all displays because of overscan.

Lavaflyer
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 18:52 Edited at: 16th Jul 2013 18:53
Thanks for the info guys!
(Quote from Digital Awakening)

Quote: "The advantage of using a PS3 controller is that they use bluetooth so you can make it work quite easily with the Ouya. The 360 controller needs either a wired one or an adapter.

I have quite a bit of controller lag. Now I have read but not tested that the problem is the metal casing on Ouya and that you can improve the signal by tilting the Ouya forwards so the top faces you. Also the angling of the controller may improve signal. Someone said he had less lag by tilting the controller up, back facing your Ouya.
"


But does the ps3 bluetooth work better? Have you experienced the same lag as with the ouya controller? Also I have tried tilting the Ouya forwards so the plastic top faces me but that doesn't seem to help much at least for me.

apocalyp: Great news that the 3 controller types can all work in conjunction even on hockeykids' player, SWEET when testing Acorn Warriors did you experience any lag with the ps3 controller/ would you recommend the ps3 controller for ouya?

Sorry I'm being a pest about the questions guys, but I don't want to get burned again by now buying a ps3 controller and having it fail/lag as bad as my 3 ouya controllers.



Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 19:18
Quote: "Nothing in that outer 10% is guaranteed to show on all displays because of overscan."


Thanks for the info. It would be easy to add in a simple option for moving those in the settings later

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 19:22
Quote: "But does the ps3 bluetooth work better? Have you experienced the same lag as with the ouya controller? Also I have tried tilting the Ouya forwards so the plastic top faces me but that doesn't seem to help much at least for me."


I don't have a PS3 controller myself. But from what I have read in the dev forum, the PS3 controller has no lag (or if it does it's less). My guess is that a wired controller, like the 360 one, would have no lag.

BTW, not using wifi and sitting closer to your Ouya should reduce lag. Also remove anything close to it that could interfere with the signals.

apocolyp4
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 20:44
Lavaflyer I don't remember having any lag with the PS3 Pad. The pad itself isn't the issue. The majority of the time my Ouya pads don't lag. It only seems to lag when the Ouya OS is moving slow. Im guessing the lag is due to a software issue rather than hardware. At one point during the game jam I was using the Ouya Controller almost 20 meters away from the Ouya and it was working fine.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 20:48
Yeah, the lag is usually something that happens when you have downloaded stuff, played a lot etc. Rebooting the Ouya usually fixes this problem.

DrT
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Posted: 17th Jul 2013 02:56
I wanted to share two files I created.

The first is a module for sensing the button state and axis value for the controller.



The seconds tests the module by displaying a table of the button states and axis values for four controllers.



I was only able to test this for one controller. If anyone has more than one controller, please try out the code and let me know how it goes.
SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 17th Jul 2013 19:09
I got my ouya today

well yesterday actually....

I had no idea this controller has a mouse touch pad built into it... wow this is very exciting! Maby we will see more rts,s being developed since it would be easy to select units with the touch pad.

Im really excited for this system.... its all I want to develop for...lol

RickV
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Posted: 18th Jul 2013 17:31 Edited at: 18th Jul 2013 17:31
Hi all,

This should be of interest to you all!

FREETheGamesFund from Ouya



Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 18th Jul 2013 19:47
Paul:
Any thoughts on the framebuffer thing I posted about earlier, to make games run faster on Ouya?

Rick:
That one is quite interesting. It is sad that they are doing it Kickstarter based, as that's only for US and UK. Also, you need to raise $50,000 on Kickstarter for the fund to kick in. That would leave you with at least $100,000 to fund your game development with. That takes quite a project, not something for a one man team. But there is a 1 year application time, so who knows.

Paul Johnston
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Posted: 18th Jul 2013 22:11
Quote: "Any thoughts on the framebuffer thing I posted about earlier, to make games run faster on Ouya?"


I ran some tests and it looks like you can do this in NDK, but I wasn't sure if it would work on all devices so it isn't active in 108. If you want to experiment with it you will need to edit the interpreter_android/jni/main.c file and recompile it.

Firstly find the section of code that looks like this


and edit it so it looks like this

where 640, 480 is the size of frame buffer that you want. Note that there may be limits on the acceptable frame buffer size, like multiples of 8, I haven't tested enough to know the limits.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 19th Jul 2013 01:13
Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow if I have time.

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Jul 2013 02:03 Edited at: 19th Jul 2013 02:08
ouya uses both android software and gpu hardware that dont play well with agk at least?

Tegra devices is hard to utilize optimally as you have to do many specific shader work for it to play nice.

samsung s4 and s3 uses the mali 400 gpu that forces all fragment shaders to only run at highest at medium precision.

While tegra devices runs at high if you dont specify it in the shader.

Then do i also belive ouya uses a higher screen resolution that makes it crawl at some times as it uses the flat screen tvs resolution that the shader have to work with.

I dont Think many phones screen res is Close to an full hd flat screen?

edited....
missed this page when answering
Sounds good with the render to image command

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Jul 2013 11:45 Edited at: 20th Jul 2013 13:51
Paul:
So I would have to compile a new player through Eclipse then I guess? That's not something I have the time to figure out how to do today. And going away so I won't have access to my Ouya for a week.

Do you think you can include this to the One click deploy to Android page or something? Or at least allow us to easily access this feature in AGKv2?

SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 5th Aug 2013 06:14 Edited at: 5th Aug 2013 06:31
ok this is disappointing!

1024x600 is my games resolution so it fits blackberry playbook however when it plays on the ouya it upscales to 1920x1080 and kills the frame rate by half or more.

I don't have any crazy graphic intensive things going on in my game either....and its only 2d.

I tested my chopper game and I get 25fps and its suppose to be 60.
I also tested icebrawlers and get 30fps and again its suppose to be 60.

Why is my blackberry playbook runnen at a smooth 60 when I cant get even 30 on my choppergame with the ouya??


Anyways here is what I found out from running some tests...
setting my resolution for agk to 1920x1080... actualy increased the frame rate.

my chopper game sits at 25-35 fps with it at 1024x600
and with it set to 1920x1080 it runs at 45-51 fps

(I still haven't gotten 60fps to go)

To me this seems like a problem on how the screen is rendered to the ouya.

can anything be fixed for v1? or are we stuck till v2?

would be nice if they could fix this sooner then later...

If this cannot be fixed then I need to leave the ouya system till v2 is released to try it on.....too bad that could be a year away.

or.... I would have to rewrite a game completely to use the 1920x1080 res




edit: ok I got icbrawlers fixed.... I had to set the res to 1920x1080. Its running at 60fps now. I will need to do a lot of graphic adjustments including collision work to fix this and make it look proper.

its the only way to get a higher framerate. I suggest anyone writing an ouya app use 1080p or you will be losing frame rate badly!

JimHawkins
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Posted: 5th Aug 2013 10:14
It's not necessarily an AppGameKit problem. The reviews of Ouya (pretty well bad) mention bad frame rates, unstable video, bad controller recognition etc.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Impetus73
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Posted: 5th Aug 2013 15:20
Ouya have to change the firmware/OS on their system, so it gets usable.

----------------
AGK programmer
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 5th Aug 2013 16:35
Interesting that it runs faster at native res. Other devs use a smaller frame buffer to speed things up. Tegra 3 can upscale with almost no performance lost. But AppGameKit does not have a command for this. Even using the command to use a smaller frame buffer on large devices doesn't work. Can't remember the name.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 00:43
Just wanted to say that I have managed to get rid of all noticeable controller lag. Finally beaten the boss in Knightmare Tower, played Towerfall with a friend and I also bought Nimble Quest. I have tilted my Ouya forward, top towards me. There is nothing between me and it. And everything behind it is at least 10cm/4" away.

SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 01:47 Edited at: 12th Aug 2013 01:48
I love that nimble quest myself......its a really good game!!

I also Love sonic CD ... I hope sega continues the releases

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 12th Aug 2013 22:43 Edited at: 12th Aug 2013 22:45
My Ouya arrived a few days ago and - despite the aforementioned fillrate problems when using AppGameKit - I'm actually quite impressed with what the little box can do. It's incredibly nice to see my 3D game up and running on my TV, while controlling it from afar (even though it runs at 30 fps). Will the solution posted by Paul find it's way to a player (either AppGameKit v1 or v2) at some time? And will the 'Render to Image'-functionality be complimentary to this?
Paul Johnston
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Posted: 13th Aug 2013 02:17
Quote: "Will the solution posted by Paul find it's way to a player (either AppGameKit v1 or v2) at some time?"


I'll see what I can do, although the solution I posted is in the setup stage, I don't know if it can be done at runtime after the app is running.

Quote: "And will the 'Render to Image'-functionality be complimentary to this?"


Render to image would be possible at runtime, and could save some fill rate by drawing everything to smaller render target, but it would still require a final step of drawing the small render target to the full resolution back buffer. The above solution skips this step by having the back buffer itself be at low resolution and then the GPU can scale this up to device resolution internally for free, or so I'm told.
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 13th Aug 2013 07:48
Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining. It looks as if both solutions are worth checking out. Your efforts are very much appreciated!
SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 14th Aug 2013 07:24
hey?? I was just trying agk again on my ouya with my new game shark bait... and to my surprize its full screen running at 60fps

im very happy to see this and can now start developing for ouya

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 21st Aug 2013 00:31
This line: EnableClearColor( 0 ) gives me about 10% more FPS on my Ouya (at 1080p). This is probably gonna be the most effective around 40-50 FPS. As this gives you more FPS and it's still noticeable. If you have like 20-30 FPS to start with, it's still going to be bad. Results may wary

Zwarteziel
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Posted: 21st Aug 2013 11:44
Quote: "This line: EnableClearColor( 0 ) gives me about 10% more FPS on my Ouya (at 1080p)."


Hi DA, do you use the command alongside a manual Sync() (with Render and Swap etc.)? I've been experimenting with EnableClearColor(0), but it leaves the last rendered frame on the screen, resulting in.. well, a mess really

I hope the fillrate troubles will be adressed, since Ouya-support is one of the first strech-goals that was reached in the AppGameKit V2 kickstarter. Right now, my phone (A HTC One S with a 960x540 res.) is able to render my protoype at 60 fps, while the Ouya struggles hard (and at times fails) to keep it around 30.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 21st Aug 2013 21:42 Edited at: 21st Aug 2013 21:45
When using this command (should be early and outside your loop) you need to "clear" the screen yourself. Since I have a full screen background I have no problems with this. I don't know how this affects 3D. And I use sync(), manually syncing didn't give me any extra FPS so I skipped that.

Now one thing to remember is that this command have varying results on different hardware. It works fine on Ouya, Galaxy S2 and on my PC. Haliop has reported problems with this command on OGLes 3.0 devices where the screen appears multiple times.

Paul have mentioned a render to image command in v2 where you can draw to a small image and then draw that to the screen. But I think it would be even better if we could just alter the framebuffer size. Problem is that Ouya default to the largerst framebuffer your TV can take, which usually is 1080p. But if you use a smaller framebuffer then Ouya can scale it up to 1080p basically for free.

Ancient Lady
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Posted: 21st Aug 2013 22:59
EnableClearColor(0) also cause MAJOR issues on the Samsung Galaxy S III. Even with the simplest of test code.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
Zwarteziel
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2013 10:40
Thanks for responding DA and AL,

I've just read the posts haliop made during the last few days concerning the EnableClearColor()-command. It's behaviour seems a bit unstable across devices, so I think I'll steer clear of it for now and hope both the 'Render to image'-functionality and the manual configuration of the framebuffer (as posted by Paul earlier) will become possible.
SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2013 19:12
Excellent.... I'm getting 60fps on my 3d tile engine that I converted from darkbasic to agk running on ouya and bb.

My next project for agk will now be a 3d one.

I'm going to spend the next few days creating an obj still frame exporting for my new modelprop app.

I will share with agk community once it's complete ifanyone is interested in still frame animation for v1.

My app already supports. X animated wich will be good for v2.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 7th Sep 2013 11:28
Here's a new discovery! The Ouya button registers as button 8 when released. BTW, that's the same as the start button on a 360 controller. Just mapped that to bring up the menu in Rush to Adventure.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Sep 2013 00:26
Just wanted to share today's experience. First off the Ouya is an excellent way to show off your games to your friends and watch them play. So, had a friend over today and transfered the latest version of RTA directly from my PC to the player. Then I had fun watching him play the game. He gave up on Normal and switched over to Easy and beat the 7 levels I got. Then we took turns playing on Insane. You know, the old version of co-op If the game had been complete I think we could have just sat there playing for hours. No leveling up kind of ruins the fun on Insane.

Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 6th Dec 2013 07:18 Edited at: 6th Dec 2013 07:18
Here's a reference for the buttons. I made it for myself, I'm sure you veterans don't really need it, but for new OUYA programmers like me, it might be handy.



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apocolyp4
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Posted: 15th Dec 2013 00:21
I decided to finally get Neon Prime fully working on the Ouya. Ive added in the games intro and Outro FMV's that were in the original Xbox 360 version.

Ive attached a beta version to this post. Its the full game but its skips the enter name to save your highscore board section due to the Ouya's virtual keyboard not working with the AppGameKit yet. Share the apk with anyone with an Ouya as this beta will stop working at the end of the month. Now I need to wait till AppGameKit 2 is released so that I can release it.

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