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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [STICKY] Dark Basic Pro - Out In The Open

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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
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Location: England
Posted: 15th Sep 2015 14:05
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Hi All,

I must confess to being completely gobsmacked by the fact that I leave DBP coding for a few years to code GameGuru, and I return to find the forum is as active as when I left What a community!

I did have a quick scan over some of the threads and noticed a post regarding the eventual demise of DBP now that GameGuru is being ported to C++. To combat this clearly unacceptable outcome, I have decided to start the process of moving the latest version of DBP over an open source project (including the new faster compiler and I dare say more than a few project breaking tweaks). It would be hosted on GITHUB and I would hand over the reigns of maintaining the code base to someone we can trust to look after the bugs while I busy myself finishing GameGuru.

In order to ensure that DBP does not become abandon-ware, we will also be periodically compiling the latest stable version and releasing the language for free on Steam. To make the whole project pay its minor upkeep we'll be adding the electronic versions of Hands On Volume 1 and 2 as DLCs together with some legacy asset packs to give new users a head start.

If anyone is interested in the role of moderator of the GITHUB code base, responsible for bug fixes, organizing the code, periodically compiling stable versions and responding to user feedback, please get in touch directly with me at lee@thegamecreators.com with a brief CV/Bio.

I cannot promise any remuneration at the outset, just toil and kudos, but once we're up and running and if the Steam DLCs produce some revenue from the effort, we can seed our moderators with cash, kit and other toys in recognition of your contributions.

Best of all, it means DBP gets to live on, and hopefully grow into a new and wonderful shape as it gets used to its new open source home. It also means you get access to some of the built-in stuff I added for GG such as cascade shadow mapping and optimizations made during the last few years to speed up general rendering.

Do let me know if you think this is a good idea, bad idea, crazy idea, and any critique on our idea to release it for free on Steam. As the project is open source and likely fueled by voluntary user contributions it did not seem right to charge for it (not least because you can simply visit GITHUB and download it directly).

It's great to be posting in the DBP forum again, and I look forward to your feedback.

Hogging the awesome since 1999
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Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 15th Sep 2015 14:36
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Welcome back Lee.

Sounds like excellent news. Hope you find someone to look after it soon.

I'm not sure of the implications of making it open source or available on Steam but hopefully we'll still be able to use DBPro in much the same way as before.

What would be the implications for various plugins such as Dark Lights?



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Van B
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 15:07
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Sounds like the best news to hit the DBPro users in some time!

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MrValentine
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 16:12
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Yeah, Nice to see something in this arena...

Umm yeah which known Paid Plug-ins does this break?

Will the TGC Store variant remain the same and for sale? [Ideally it would]

Will there be a reshuffle of TGC Store Plug-ins? [DBP ones]

Hopefully U7.62 will remain accessible...

Thank you a lot Lee!

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Kuper
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 16:17
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Amazing news! Moving it on Steam will bring new people to the community I think.


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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 17:35
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I need to draw your attention to your own AUP:

Quote: "Rule 5 - Do not offer money or the promise of "future riches"

Nothing turns people away faster than "I can't afford to pay you, but I will split the money with you when the game goes on sale"."


On a more serious note, glad to see both DBP and yourself out in the open again.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 18:16
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Quote: "I need to draw your attention to your own AUP"






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KISTech
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 18:33
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Good to hear from you Lee.

Plugins is an excellent point to bring up. Whether they continue working or not will depend on changes made to the parts of the engine they connect through. Weird things will undoubtedly happen along the way.

If many of the "can't live without" plugins were also made open source, that would at least present some options for keeping things running smoothly.
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wattywatts
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 19:45
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I'm just happy to see any sign of life from dbp! I am also somewhat concerned about plug-ins, however I hope that doesn't become a deterrent for releasing a new version as I'd love to see the new optimizations and features. If there was a broken plug-in I couldn't do without I wouldn't be in any worse shape if I switched back to a legacy version.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 21:36
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Wow, amazing news! A great idea for sure.


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GIDustin
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Posted: 15th Sep 2015 22:14
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Excellent idea. If the TGC store plugins are added as well, that is icing on the cake. Plugins that are still maintained and sold privately should continue to do so, but anything that has severely lost support should be opened up.

Hopefully you can find someone to take this on. I just hope enough of the community stuck around to be able to take this to new heights...

Klan Kamakazee.com
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James H
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Posted: 16th Sep 2015 09:29
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Great news, just hope someone picks it up and that we don't lose many plugins.
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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
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Posted: 16th Sep 2015 12:10
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I think open sourcing the official plugins is the best approach, but as you suspect there will be some that will not work right away and would need fixing by contributors.

We will probably keep the store as a binary to hide the built-in security code and protect artist revenues, and probably the IDE too as this was licensed and I don't think I have the appropriate rights to open source it. Fortunately there are several DBP IDEs to choose from these days

Hogging the awesome since 1999
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MrValentine
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Posted: 16th Sep 2015 13:00
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Awesome

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Ortu
DBPro Master
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Posted: 16th Sep 2015 21:34
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getting your latest changes and updates out will be wonderful

i do wonder though if this will include making the compiler open source as well? the older dbpro source has been available on svn for some years, but my understanding from what people have said here and there is that without access to the compiler source, there are limits to what can be fixed / improved.

either way, thanks as always for your efforts and the communication here is welcomed!

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wattywatts
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Posted: 17th Sep 2015 01:38
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Quote: "i do wonder though if this will include making the compiler open source as well?"

Also curious about this.
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James H
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Posted: 17th Sep 2015 02:13 Edited at: 17th Sep 2015 02:13
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Quote: "I think open sourcing the official plugins is the best approach, but as you suspect there will be some that will not work right away and would need fixing by contributors."


Unsure of what that means exactly - will these plugins be free for all? Assuming they are not is there a risk we may have to repurchase plugins due to what could perhaps be considerable amounts of work to get them working or are we talking a free update through our account? I have no clue as to what would be needed to get them working, not to mention the folk that wrote them maybe have a stake in this although you have mentioned you have the source for them - do TGC own these products out right then? Anyway as you must have guessed by now it looks a bit of a grey area to me. If its a stupid question I apologize, I have been awake for quite some time!

There are a number of free plugins available that may need the same treatment, obviously I realize it will depend on the authors but any chance you can twist IanM's arm on either updating Matrix1Utility plugin or passing you the source to make it available to contributors? All you have to do is hunt him down and hold him at gunpoint, don't worry about the police - they will understand once you show them how awesome the product is. I can see some free plugins sorely missed if authors aren't around or don't wish to either be involved or release the source, especially if replacements don't surface in the future at some point. Sparkies sc_collision does not have a link for the source but has DGDK version available. I never did get round to DGDK I just seem to recall having to install VS for it, so I am wondering if this can be done using DGDK version?
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Scorpyo
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Posted: 17th Sep 2015 10:55
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Quote: "
I have decided to start the process of moving the latest version of DBP over an open source project (including the new faster compiler and I dare say more than a few project breaking tweaks).
"


All is fine then, but...
I'd rather prefer to see on Steam a full package "Elite DBP" a la "Unity5" based on Dark Basic Language in the 80-100 Euros range.

Given the Worldwide scope of Steam and the presumably millions of potential users across, willing to pursue this hobby or use that as the proper development tool for single/small team developers, THAT would sell like hot cakes.
Crossplatform?, naah, let's stick to PC.

Just IMHO.

Anyway, thank you Lee and TGC for the long years of fun, entertainment, learning and passion that I spent on DBC first and on DBP later on and at present.

All the best
Scorpyo
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Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Sep 2015 14:33
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Awesome! Sounds like a properly great idea!


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Ortu
DBPro Master
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Posted: 18th Sep 2015 03:37 Edited at: 18th Sep 2015 03:39
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regarding plugin concerns, some bought and paid older ones may not be compatible possibly ever. this may be unavoidable, but in that case if you must have that plugin you may have to continue using the existing version of dbpro, is not like you will have to upgrade when the new updates are put out, you are no worse off than now either way.

alternatively new replacements may come out, compatibility may get added etc, but worry over plugins is not an issue concerning releasing these updates, only issue over whether you end up using them and when.

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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
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Posted: 18th Sep 2015 04:52
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I will certainly put up the latest plugins code that TGC own first, and also the compiler so you can attack the bugs in there too (again perhaps a little bit of binary to protect plugins that are not owned by TGC). Whether non-TGC plugin owners contribute to the open source project will be entirely their decision and I would not want to influence them (as it would come across as hassling I think). I could certainly send a link to them, on the off chance they would like to contribute their source code. At last count there were quite a few official plugins

Hogging the awesome since 1999
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GreenDixy
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Posted: 18th Sep 2015 05:30
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i am glad to hear that dbpro wont be dead cant wait i use it all the time and always will

.:: Http://DeanWorks.Ca ::.
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Sep 2015 06:15
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Quote: "At last count there were quite a few official plugins"


I do wish you would state which ones.......

Dark Physics is a clear obvious non official as is Dark Dynamix...

Which ones are Official? STYX? Enhancements Pack? Unity? 2D Plugin Kit? [Which will never work, I wish it did though...]

If it wouldn't trouble you, could you take a breather 30 minute break to list the official paid plug-ins; could you pretty please? I presumably own the 'rights to use' for all of them by now



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Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 18th Sep 2015 07:57
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Thanks for your thoughts on this Lee, looking forward to the movement over the coming weeks.

Help build an online DarkBASIC Professional help archive.
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SamKM
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Posted: 19th Sep 2015 15:41 Edited at: 19th Sep 2015 15:43
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AUUUUUGH! THIS IS... I'm totally torn here - first off it's really awesome to see you back Lee, and it's great to know an updated DBPro is finally being released (kind of ) - we all massively appreciate it! On the other hand, I've literally spent a month working on a hack to speed up compile times, which I was gonna post to the forum today, and is probably useless with an ultra-fast new compiler

The code never bothered me anyway...
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Crazy Programmer
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Posted: 19th Sep 2015 16:38
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Quote: "probably useless with an ultra-fast new compiler "

It would not be useless, many people will still use the current version of DBP for certain projects that need plugins that will not yet work in the newer version of DBP.

Beta Test Age of Knights:https://play.google.com/apps/testing/com.CrazyProgrammerProductions.my_AgeOfKnights
Download JellyFish Dive:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.CrazyProgrammerProductions.my_JellyFishSwim
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SamKM
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Posted: 19th Sep 2015 17:01 Edited at: 19th Sep 2015 17:36
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Fair point Crazy, cheered me up, thanks

The code never bothered me anyway...
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Sep 2015 16:59
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Quote: " On the other hand, I've literally spent a month working on a hack to speed up compile times, which I was gonna post to the forum today,"


Yes please.



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Kuper
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Posted: 21st Sep 2015 00:13
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Quote: "I was gonna post to the forum today, and is probably useless with an ultra-fast new compiler"

If you find some ways to encrease compile time let us know It is very important improvement.Many people here have over 30k lines code and it is really headache to compile it ))))


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Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 21st Sep 2015 00:22
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Maybe SamKM's mod plus Lee's internal version = instant compile!

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SamKM
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Posted: 21st Sep 2015 04:08 Edited at: 24th Sep 2015 05:08
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Thanks for the interest! I've been looking into a way of saving DBPro function in a compiled state, so they can be removed from your code and loaded by your program at runtime - hopefully should be really useful for large function libraries like Advanced Lighting
Should have it posted this evening, just need to fix one annoying bug with it!
(Edit: Here it is: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=215476&b=6&p=0)
Sorry for hijacking the thread with this

The code never bothered me anyway...
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Clonkex
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Posted: 21st Sep 2015 13:41
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Quote: "If you find some ways to encrease compile time let us know"


You mean decrease, right? You don't want to be increasing compile times


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2015 13:19
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Quote: "Sorry for hijacking the thread with this"


No need to apologize to us!



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IBOL
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Posted: 24th Sep 2015 22:04
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I recently came back to DBP after a long absence myself, and I would greatly appreciate any improvements that could be made to this already awesome language.

Just please please PLEASE don't take away anything that already works. please.

and THANKS!

http://www.indiedb.com/company/ibology
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seppgirty
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Posted: 26th Sep 2015 01:12
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While you are in a generous mood Lee, how about giving access to the fpsc classic editor to s4real and nomad soul so they can add a real third person camera to the black ice mod.

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Arbrakan
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2015 09:45
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Great news !! Thanks Lee and welcome back !
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seppgirty
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2015 14:36
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@ LEE
Quote: " and any critique on our idea to release it for free on Steam."


I'm not the biggest fan of having it tied to steam and depending on a steam log in. I guess having it available on git-hub will make it independent . Also, if you could make the DLC content available through the tgc store that would be great.
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2015 16:44 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2015 16:44
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Wow, I must have missed this thread. This is excellent news!
Regards Sph!nx
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Clonkex
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Posted: 5th Oct 2015 04:46
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Quote: "Wow, I must have missed this thread. This is excellent news!"


Definitely is!

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CumQuaT
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Well, Lee, you probably already know my thoughts on this. After working on Malevolence for 5 years in DBP, seeing the chance at having it a) run in something later than DX9, b) having the memory restraints potentially lifted and c) allowing potential for alternate rendering systems such as OpenGL to allow compiles for, say, Linux, would make my day!
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zoltar
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Posted: 8th Oct 2015 19:06
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Excellent news! Completely made my day year!

Welcome back, Lee, and thanks for being so generous with the DBP community!
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JackDawson
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Posted: 9th Oct 2015 05:58
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Lee it's good to see that you are alive and kicking here on the DBPro forums. Thanks for the heads up.
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bjadams
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Posted: 12th Oct 2015 13:34 Edited at: 14th Oct 2015 12:57
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This is the BEST idea ever.
Well done Lee.
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Duffer
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 21:59
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Just came back (I sporadically do) to see this post. Lee, it's an excellent idea. A big thumbs up. Help yourself to inclusion of my SQLITE plugin.
a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
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Clonkex
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 23:17
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Quote: "seeing the chance at having it a) run in something later than DX9, b) having the memory restraints potentially lifted and c) allowing potential for alternate rendering systems such as OpenGL to allow compiles for, say, Linux, would make my day!"


Those are pretty fundamental changes, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Morcilla
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Posted: 20th Oct 2015 11:26 Edited at: 20th Oct 2015 11:27
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Exciting news.
@Lee, Well done. This community has too much heart and deserves all the best.
Regards,
Manuel
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 24th Oct 2015 19:25
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I realise this thread is basically just to see if it is viable and wanted. Now I wonder if it is smart to start a project on DBP or is the chance very small that this idea will come to fruition? Thanks.
Regards Sph!nx
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Dragon slayer
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Posted: 24th Oct 2015 20:57
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I was wondering the same thing, when's it gonna happen? if at all!
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seppgirty
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Posted: 24th Oct 2015 21:49
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Well, Lee wants someone to run the git hub page and update the code for him. I don't think anyone volunteered for it yet.
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 24th Oct 2015 22:41
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I'm afraid I am not qualified enough myself but the one who will pick it up will have my full support!
Regards Sph!nx
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