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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Studio

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Santman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 18:50
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Hey guys.

Just got the news letter about AppGameKit Studio.....sounds exciting but I wonder, is this stand alone or an interface for AppGameKit? Will AppGameKit code run in it to gain the performnace and feature updates?
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Scraggle
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 18:58
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I just read it too and I really have no idea what it is. It isn't explained very well at all.
My best guess is that it is a replacement IDE with an integrated level designer but that is purely a guess based on the sparse information in the newsletter.

A trial version would be essential. I can't imagine many people (myself included) wanting to hand over money for something that may not be what they think it is.

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puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 18:59
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Sounds interesting a one to follow.

Preferably i love to program my work, so if this is like a Click Team Click and Play type of thing then it wouldnt be for me as such

Ill take a look when it comes out
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fubarpk
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 19:15
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From my understanding its a new AppGameKit based on a new engine (Vulkan)

but it has the added ability to drag assets to your built scenes to allow for easy placement of sprites
Which could come in handy. But I still believe its code based similar to the app studio now

I wouldnt expect the commands to work the same as its a new engine so old code isnt likely to work
sadly
fubar
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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 19:46 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 20:11
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A bit more info from AppGameKit would be nice.. But perhaps they are afraid to scare the community?
Might also be the reason why some parts weren't being updated as the plan was to move to Vulcan and working hard on that behind the scenes?
Vulkan is apparently the OpenGL Next, and from quick glance below is very uncertain if is compatible with my ancient laptop (need to check for NVIDIA Geforce 8400 GS, but doubt it very much).

Vulkan Wiki

Of course understandable if they wanna compete with the likes of Unity and such.
Hope if they do that it will be able to generate true exe's, have a integrated and fully complete bullet physics engine.
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 19:58 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 20:00
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Vulkan is the new open gl standard all ios apps must have very soon to even be published and is super fast compared to old open gl.
Supports even more and better shaders.

Vulkan is the latest open gl standard iteration.

My look at it is simply that they call the old agk basic language a script now instead to meet the competetion better.

Its more or less a app game kit deluxe and looks amazing so far.

Have alot of things that have bin requested added in and iam all in to this as its a upgrade as unreal engine 2 to unreal engine 4


Ok agk team! where do i throw my money at you guys


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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:17 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 20:21
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@Cliff Mellangard:
Looking good. I see a physcic.agc in the left pane as well as Game Guru Loader stuff, so assuming that's compatible too?
Or is this a new version?

One thing I do know: probably time to buy a new laptop if I make the switch, but it's overdue already long time unfortunately.
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npink1981
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:18
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Does look good but no mention of Linux :-( Just Mac / Windows and Android..
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Santman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:19
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As long as I can keep my existing code......not sure if be keen to move completely, but newer shaders and a better engine would be better.
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xCept
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:25
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It looks really nice. I do wonder how people will feel though that paid $50 USD for Visual Editor, which only had one update this past year and is still very sparse in features and integration of AGK.
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linuxfranz
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:28
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No Linux version announced (yet)...
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psychoanima
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:33
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I am really hyped about Studio version!

I am super grateful that AppGameKit language syntax will remain in this new version, basic language is the main reason I am using AGK.

New rendering engine will make a huuuuge difference and a game changer, regarding both performance and visuals, can't wait to see some more details what will be implemented in Studio.

In this screenshot I can notice GG Loader scripts, and I am a bit afraid cuz of that; I hope that PBR shaders, probes and lighting fx will not depend on this dlc but solely on Vulkan (?!)

Lunch price is fair, looking forward to see more details about pricing plan (no subscription thank God), is early birds discount available for everyone? If so, will be there some extra discount for existing AppGameKit users?

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Kevin Cross
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:34
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I think I've asked before but where do I sign up for newsletters? Haven't seen one in years/forever.
[href=https://github.com/KevinCrossDCL/OryUI]OryUI[href] - A WIP AGK2 UI Framework
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pjsmith67
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:38
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I bought Visual Editor and was sorely disappointed with it. Now they want us to fork over more money before Studio has even been released?

No thanks.

I hope this is not written in AGK. Its great for games but not for general applications on Windows or Mac. Visual Editor's CPU usage on my MacBook was off the charts, which was one of the main reasons why I quit using it.
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 20:41 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 20:43
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Kevin - I think you can enable newsletters in your profile settings

The main Game Creators home page - like attached

I think....


Yes - this looks very impressive.

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Kevin Cross
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:09
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Thanks puzzler. Signed up now
OryUI - A WIP AGK2 UI Framework
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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:11 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 21:12
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Thinking out loud: Besides my laptop I have a desktop system, but also quite oldish(2008) with an ASRock mainboard. Will see if it could support a Vulkan PCIe compatible GPU card, but probably not available.

- Wonder also if AGK2 support will drop once AppGameKit Studio has been released, which would be a real pity, for there are plenty of low/medium specced systems around that won't support Vulkan (yet).
- Would be great if AppGameKit Studio would be geared towards high-end gaming market segment, so that TGC can cover all fronts, but they'll probably need to make resource decisions to be economically viable.

Keeping fingers x-ed.


[EDIT: luv the dark interface! ]
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janbo
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:12 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 21:17
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Um ...Good you can convert glsl to Spir-V... sooo... whop whop more shaders, tesselation geometry and compute shaders in fact... hopefully
At some time I'll make a complete game with shaders only
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Santman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:12
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If it keeps the same language, and still allows the same own use of shaders and such, I don't mind the price, $50 Is nothing.....assuming it's dollars and that's not a typo.

From their perspective they NEED this to compete with the likes of unity and unreal, agk isn't nearly as user friendly as them yet.
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Increase
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:13
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Why is Linux not an export option anymore ?
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Rocco Sette
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:15
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Available on Linux ?

AppGameKit on linux update will continue ?
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fubarpk
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:21
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Ideally I think most of us would like to be able to import our AGK2 code into AppGameKit studio
but if it works on a different engine there may be new commands to learn which is fine
I would like most the old commands the same syntax and the ones that have to be different
as different commands altogether with possibility of keeping the older command style
which would make bringing old code across easier
fubar
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:26 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 21:27
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I agree - keep with forward and backward compatibilities then i may get a 2nd wind to it...

Things can only move forward, so lets this be seen as a really positive thing for TGC

Well done guys at TGC
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janbo
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 21:39 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 22:00
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Hope the two parameters after LoadShader doesn't mean you can only use vertex and fragment shaders...well we don't know much about that studio thing yet

[Edit]Looking at that other picture the powerup drink especally, makes me wonder how AppGameKit tastes like
Also that scene on the book looks like GaborD's[/Edit]
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psychoanima
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 22:12
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@janbo

I wanted to write the same, visuals look pretty much like GaborD's amazing pbr test scene.
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Zigi
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 22:47 Edited at: 4th Feb 2019 22:51
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The layout of the IDE reminds me very much of Freedom Engine, the predecessor of AGK. The help tab showing the Placement Editor which indicated we are getting the (same?) Placement Editor bundled and a button in the IDE to launch it which means AppGameKit DLC's like the Visual Editor probably won't be compatible but some like GGLoader will be ported over, may even be included out of the box. The project and asset browser and the code editor shows normal AppGameKit staff however so it is unclear at the moment what is this going to be. A new product or just an alternative IDE. I have the feeling we are getting the same staff only in a new IDE which is maybe not that new after all but looks more pro and a new engine based on Vulkan. If we are getting the Placement Editor I'm going to be very disappointed. I really hope AppGameKit Studio will be a lot more than just a new IDE and Vulkan engine.

Marketing and press could be a little better about this, after all TGC expecting me to pre-order this, to buy another half baked TGC product. AGK2 baked well over the years, become a pretty solid tool but GameGuru and some AppGameKit DLC was (is) a disaster. Would be nice to know what direction AppGameKit Studio is going exactly and what is the plan with AGK2. TGC unlikely going to maintain both in case AGKS is a new stand alone product and in case AppGameKit Studio will be only an alternative IDE for AGK2 and AGK2 also get the Vulkan engine for free by the end then it is going to be noting but a rip off because the IDE may going to be abandoned after just like the Placement Editor and even the new Visual Editor already abandoned. To be honest I have enough of these expensive abandoned TGC projects.
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 23:37
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For me so is it looking like they try to compete with all new languages that are free and unity?
This is probably a thing that have to happen for agk to stay alive to get people from other tools to try it.
I love agks barebone ide and code all my tools by my self.
But they nead new users to expand.
Agk will not survive in its current state......
My space on goggle play ... https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Play8Bitar+Osterlen
Play8Bitars channel ... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_TbzZmDzj0axBZsbfRnDCQ
Think i know it channel ... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEJY7tJ5_HBQxi06BGsnoQg
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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 4th Feb 2019 23:56 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 00:13
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@Zigi
Well actually, I thought looked more like the Unity IDE than what you mention, minus the overkill OOP stuff(sliders, buttons etc). I really like the full dark theme, which currently I have to reinstall myself after every update.

As mentioned above the Vulkan API is apparently mandatory for iOS in future so has to be done to stay relevant to devs.
Also is said to be much faster compared to OpenGL and supports more/better shaders.


- Would be nice if one could select the preferred engine in the IDE for those devs or endusers without compatible GPU's, but probably unlikely. If not, I hope AGK2 development doesn't completely comes to a halt.

Hoping they'll also incorporate:
- Asynchronous stuff, for instance for loading and such.
- A completely finished physics system, with vehicle physics for cars, boats, planes, rockets etc.
- A lighting system that contains spotlights built-in, for instance for headlights, flashlights etc.
- A billboard system for grass/foliage (can be coded by hand, but will be faster if done one in C++).
- The ability to create true compiled stand-alone EXE's.

Am I forgetting something in above wish list?
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Santman
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 01:54
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I'm actually thinking that's a mock up, I don't think it's a running thing yet. The shader they are referring to is the standard landscape shader, and the volcanoes is just a model with normal mapping.

The ide is interesting, but I'm far more interested in what's under the bonnet. Not gonna lie though, some decent realtime debugging and error tracing alone would be worth the money!
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Qube_
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 02:01
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Quote: "As mentioned above the Vulkan API is apparently mandatory for iOS in future so has to be done to stay relevant to devs. "

That's not true. The Vulkan API is not natively supported by Apple on Mac / iOS. Apple are blindly only supporting their Metal API and although there are Vulkan to Metal wrappers Apple could decided at any point to just not allow them on the Mac / iOS AppStores. There are already pages on the net about Apple refusing Vulkan to Metal wrappers with apps submitted to them.
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Ortu
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 02:07
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I could care less about the visual editor and media explorer ccomponents but Vulkan is both pretty exciting and at the same time a bit of a dread to think about trying to learn yet another shader language and asset pipeline, what quirks and hoops this one is going to require us to jump through to get models, textures and animations working properly...
http://games.joshkirklin.com/sulium

A single player RPG featuring a branching, player driven storyline of meaningful choices and multiple endings alongside challenging active combat and intelligent AI.
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haliop_New
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 07:06
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Do you know what I would like?
I would totally like full FIREBASE support.
it will be great for my students.. a server in no time without the need to spend cash until you have 100 active users even more.
I have already built an app that uses Firebase with Android studio and its pretty amazing. hopefully, they will include full support.
for it or any other cloud-like data storage that can be used in a sec.
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DavidAGK
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Just praying that it works with current AGK2 code! When you code a project for several years on a platform that isn't that old (AGK2) you need stability. I would be really surprised if it didn't run current AGK2 code off the bat.
Using Tier 1 AppGameKit V2
Started coding with AMOS (Thanks Francois Lionet)
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RickV
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 09:07
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Hi all,

Out little teaser announcement in the newsletter has naturally raised a lot of questions. Hopefully I can set you straight with some answers:

What is AppGameKit Studio?
AppGameKit Studio is a new version of AppGameKit, so a new app but still with the core of AppGameKit at it's heart.

Features that are now working here at TGC

IDE
* Fully integrated design
* Multiple project editing
* Multiple source files
* Project status remembered
* Colour schemes

Editing
* Search & Replace
* Undo & Redo
* Sandbox mode
* Auto complete of commands and command parameters
* Auto complete of variables and functions
* Mac version can emulate PC keyboard
* Auto code creation when you drag media into the source code from the help

Compiling
* Compile
* Broadcast
* Debug
* Export (exe, apk, ipa)

Help
* Integrated Help
* Searchable Help
* Copy commands from Help

Debugger
* Watch list (vars, strings, arrays, types)
* Change values on the fly
* Break points
* Continue, Step, Step Over, Step Out
* Live debugging
* Debug log
* Change variables while the app is running

Asset browser
* Preview textures, 3D models, music/sounds, source code, text
* Watch folders
* Copy media from other folders

Shaders
* GLSL Shader editing and testing

Rendering
* Vulkan by default!
* Fall back Open GL support to follow after release

Platforms
* PC & Mac Editing
* Targets: PC, Mac, iOS, Android, HTML5

Scene Editor
Imagine something akin to the Visual Editor integrated with the IDE but much better, deep integration and with more bells and whistles!

Current Development Status
We're nearly complete with the IDE work (the screen shot is not a mock up, it all works and the live debugger where you can change values as the app runs is very cool). Soon we begin on the drag & drop functionality.

The Vulkan engine is currently in development and is not due for completion until around May time. It's the part of the project that cannot be seen and tested until it's done. The hope is that it will bring 20-30% speed improvement as seen with other engines and games that have made the move to Vulkan.

* We are offering big discounts if you order before release. 50% in March, 40% April and 30% May. We'll release beta versions to any pre-order users through to launch!
* A trial version will be made available so you can get a hands on with it on release.
* Exiting AppGameKit code works perfectly well within it.
* The current AppGameKit will become know as AppGameKit Classic. We'll continue to ensure it's stable and maintained but the future will be focused on AppGameKit Studio.
* We are focusing on Windows and Mac for launch. If there's enough users who want Linux then we'll look to support it.
* We'll improve how to sign up for the newsletter on the site and make it easier for you to access and read back issues.

I hope that answers a lot of your questions. I'll start to post videos and news about Studio in the weeks to come so you can understand more about it.

Thanks!

Development Director
TGC Team
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 09:54
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Thanks Rick. Very impressive and like the idea of Agk still been the heart of it. Just a nice toolkit to make agk programming better

Looking forward to give it at least a trial run around May time


Great impressive works
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psychoanima
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 11:04
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One thing that no one asked so far, is there going to be a 3D scene editor or only 2D?
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 11:21 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 11:22
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It would be great if there was an integrated option to remove brands from own commericial products ; a webpage page written in HTML5 or a program written in C++ doesn't have a HTML5 / C++ brand either.
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Kevin Cross
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 12:03
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Exciting news. I can't wait to pre-order and get access to the beta versions once it's all available. I should hopefully see the newsletters now if you announce it via those.
OryUI - A WIP AGK2 UI Framework
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 12:05
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It's been already talked about many moons ago

https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/219243

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paulrobson
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 12:09
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Rather than producing a Linux port, perhaps the developers could check it runs under Wine/Vulkan as an interim stage ; this is now running applications on Steam pretty reliably. Or get the run time working on that anyway if the not the IDE.
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Scary Little Rabbit
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 13:00 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 13:00
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I am just yet another one here who like to see it running on Linux. subscribed to the thread to see what's happening
error #1:
'too many stars, too many stares. disembody.'
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Cybermind
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 13:22
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I am looking forward to AppGameKit S I do, however, have a few concerns. I need Linux support for my servers (they are only using the networking commands and they are console apps only). Also, I have acquired a lot of computers that runs on Ubuntu, they are used when I go to LAN events to promote my games, I would struggle if I can no longer do this and would be forced to stick with AppGameKit C until I can afford to upgrade the large number of computers I have. Other than that, I am happy to see the upgrade to Vulkan
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 13:42
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As far as Wikipedia suggests it's a cross platform system Linux included

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan_(API)
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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 17:35 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 18:06
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@Qube:
Quote: "That's not true. The Vulkan API is not natively supported by Apple on Mac / iOS. Apple are blindly only supporting their Metal API and although there are Vulkan to Metal wrappers Apple could decided at any point to just not allow them on the Mac / iOS AppStores. There are already pages on the net about Apple refusing Vulkan to Metal wrappers with apps submitted to them."
"

Sounds like MS's DX for iOS. If that's so then might be kinda unsound for Mac users or if someone planning to launch apps for the platform (a lot I guess for there's the money to be made there).




@RickV
- I'm no MacXpert. How about Qube's remark above, does it make sense?


- Fall back:
Quote: "
Rendering
* Vulkan by default!
* Fall back Open GL support to follow after release
"

- That fall back OpenGL option sounds better to me. My GPU supports only upto OpenGL 3.3 and can imagine lots of other HW not supporting Vulkan yet and wanna reach as wide an audience as possible.


[EDIT]
Almost overlooked:
Quote: "* Export (exe, apk, ipa)"

- Does that mean true independent executables for Windows, or will remain the same system as now with interpreted code?


- The IDE with integrated 3d placement scene editor might be a really good thing. Saves loads of time tweaking (or writting your own). Same for the drag and drop code generation.




- Still, to beter keep up with the competition some things, which will be of use for almost any 3d game, need to be added: spotlights and a more complete bullet3 physics lib, especially vehicles, cloth and fracture would be useful. (you've probably noticed the interest that sparked on the forum with blink0k's car physics sim and fubarpk's adaptation of it). The other things I mentioned in my wish list few post's earlier would be nice too, but less crucial I guess.

There are some very exiting examples on GitHub here: https://github.com/bulletphysics/bullet3/tree/master/examples



I understand you guys can't do all at the same time, but is this something that we can hope to see implemented?
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kaband
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 18:05 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 19:06
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@xCept - "It looks really nice. I do wonder how people will feel though that paid $50 USD for Visual Editor, which only had one update this past year and is still very sparse in features and integration of AGK."

I got burned with Visual Editor. I bought it based on the promise of updates which never surfaced and its a sticking point. TGC knows full well they did not deliver on the product. It's abandonware at this point.
I've bought a number of TGC products and I really want to support them, but the money spent for visual editor ticks me off.

Maybe, I'm just getting old and salty. (Checking lawn for kids)
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pjsmith67
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 19:41 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 19:43
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Quote: "I got burned with Visual Editor. I bought it based on the promise of updates which never surfaced and its a sticking point. TGC knows full well they did not deliver on the product. It's abandonware at this point.
I've bought a number of TGC products and I really want to support them, but the money spent for visual editor ticks me off."



Totally agree on that one. TGC should at least offer a deep discount for people who bought Visual Editor.
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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 21:08
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Hmm... depending on what exactly this gives in terms of benefits I may need to get this. Looking forward to seeing a video of it all so I understand how it is used. What are the workflows etc.
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Zigi
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 21:29 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 21:38
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Quote: "I got burned with Visual Editor. I bought it based on the promise of updates which never surfaced"

This is exactly what concerns me too. The Visual Editor arrived with huge promises and I bought without any hesitation on release day because this is what I was waiting for soooo long but never delivered the promises and even got abandoned and now here we are again...

Quote: "-Scene Editor
Imagine something akin to the Visual Editor integrated with the IDE but much better, deep integration and with more bells and whistles!"

I heard this before when the Visual Editor was announced to replace the Placement Editor so excuse me if I'm sceptic. Also, been told the above screenshot is the actual product and it is showing the Placement Editor in the help menu or something very similar. It is the very last thing I would want to pay for to be honest. I know many AppGameKit user love making their own tools, love programming. I don't. I enjoy coding but I prefer to have the tools ready to use and in my opinion something called a "Studio" is about to offer a complete package a collection of tools and no game dev package can be complete without a proper level editor in my opinion. But I would go even further and mention things like collision mask editor, particles editor, terrain editor, sprite editor, navigation path editor...etc This is what I would personally call a "Studio".

Anyway, I can't wait to see the first video(s) about it and stop speculating. The video going to show what to expect. If I understand the IDE is almost done, we are waiting only for the Vulkan engine.

Also +1 for Linux if not the editor but at least the runtime.
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puzzler2018
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 21:29 Edited at: 5th Feb 2019 21:32
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I always often wondered what the RAGE and CRYENGINE uses? In terms of Shaders and OpenGL etc - these are also designed in C++, LUA and C#

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Rick Nasher
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Posted: 5th Feb 2019 23:02
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I remember reading somewhere that the big engines use DirectX on Windows and OpenGL on basically anything else, but Vulkan apparently is faster and is competing to beat DX.
Doesn't AGK2 do the same?
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