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Work in Progress / Net Connection Library

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th May 2004 07:06 Edited at: 20th May 2004 07:07
(Prices and bandwidth listed here are subject to change)

I'm currently working on putting together a net connection library (will be provided as a DLL for BASIC users).

The library will allow you to setup multiplayer for your games with accurate connections, allowing you to broadcast messages to all other users or send messages to specific users (or group of users), etc...

We'll run your traffic through a server that will be responsible for distributing the game messages to the other connected users.

Because this consumes bandwidth, it will be offered as a service.

Bandwidth calcs...
Say you had 11 connected users. 1 user broadcast 10 bytes of information to all other users. The 10 bytes gets received by the server (10 bytes of bandwidth) the server sends the message to the other 10 users (100 bytes of bandwidth). Now, this happened in a single second. You only used 100 bytes of bandwidth, period. The GREATER of your IN or OUT bandwidth is mesasured as your actual usage. So, the 100 bytes is the greater, and you used 100 bytes of bandwidth in this second (NOT 110 bytes!).

So...
The less users connected, the more messages each one can send.

And... you'll be able to address messages to specific users. This will be a great way to cut down on your "out bandwidth" (from the server).

Example:
If you had 10 users connected. 1 user sends a 4 byte message addressed to 3 other users. The "in bandwidth" (to the server) is 4 bytes and the "out bandwidth" (from the server) is 12 bytes (4 bytes sent to 3 users).


Talking price
We're expecting the price to be:

$0.70 (yes, 70 cents USD) for a maximum transfer of 125 bytes per second for an entire month. That means 125 bytes distributed across all connected users (per second). We will have a control panel that allows you to control how many users are allowed to be connected at once.

So, if you purchase $7.00 worth from us, you'll be alloted 1250 bytes of transfer per second.

We do not want to charge a setup fee for your account.

Also, if you purchase with the PayPal "send money" option, we'll be able to get the service to you for $0.70 per kbit/sec (125 bytes/sec). We can do this because PayPal won't charge us a processing fee if you use the "Send Money" option.

If you choose to order bandwidth with a credit card, we'll have to charge an additional processing fee on top of the bandwidth payment to cover the transaction fees.

If you try to send messages over the limit, the messages will either be queued or dropped. A setting in the library will let you specify how they're handled.

Trial
We MAY issue a few free 1kbit/sec accounts (1 kbit is 125 bytes per second) This will allow you, as developers, to test the service.

Some help?
I may ask some of you to help test the service before we launch it. I want to verify that the library and connections are stable across platforms.

If you'd be interested in helping out, then please just post here and let me know.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Everwhat Studios
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Posted: 20th May 2004 20:01
This sounds like a good idea, and something I'd be interested in using in the future, if the system I'm trying to sort doesn't go to plan.

Good luck Nuclear Glory, you have a great pedigree of providing cool dlls I'm sure this'll be no exeption

The forum user formerly known as Kangaroo2.
If the apocalypse comes, email me
MikeS
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Posted: 20th May 2004 23:45
Hmmm, this could be very useful to me in the near future as I approach multi-player. Nuclear Glory seems to be growing, and it's easy to tell why with their high quality and low priced products. Keep it up, I'll watch your site for more updates.



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nuclear glory
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Posted: 21st May 2004 06:46 Edited at: 21st May 2004 06:47
Thanks

Yes, if you subscribe to our newsletter (signup form on homepage), you'll be hearing about all of our up and coming products, tools, utilities, games, etc...

The net connection DLL is making it's debut earlier than expected. I was thinking we wouldn't get around to it until later this year. All-in-all I'm happy with how it's turning out. Hey, if you guys don't use it, I will

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lampton Worm
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Posted: 25th May 2004 12:45
Hi,

Would the .DLL itself be free? i.e. I could download that, and create a game, test the multiplayer locally (i.e. run x2 copies of my prog and connect to 127.0.0.1), and then once I'm happy, rent some bandwidth on your server to open the game up to the world?

I got basic MP working with DBP's own commands, but it takes so long to connect each time, that I got very bored developing it! I assume your commands will be faster?

Sounds cool though...

Best of luck,
Cheers.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 26th May 2004 08:03
Yes, the DLL itself would be free. However, it's not designed for direct pier-2-pier play, so you wouldn't be able to connect to yourself without being online and going through our server.

There are 2 options for this:

A) We put in a self-connection routine to simulate how data would flow over our server. This would allow you to design, test, and debug your software without need for an internet connection.

B) We alot a you a free account (with limited usage) that let's you connect to the server to test the play.

In the end, we'll probably put in both.

We'll make the DLL free.
We'll put in a 'self connection' routine to let you play against yourself.
When you're ready to go live, we'll offer a free limited time account for you to verify that your game is working over our server.

Then... you would purchase once you've verified everything is working and you're ready to roll.

Quote: "I assume your commands will be faster?"


Yes, they should be quite faster. All of our connections are provided with the exact connection address of the online game server to get you connected as fast as the ports can open (after the system verifies your account status first). There are no blind "searching" routines when a multiplayer connection is made.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
The admiral
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Posted: 26th May 2004 09:38
Why not just make a dll for multiplayer instead of making us pay you for bandwidth??some people have their own servers and stuff so it seems logical. If you need money people can buy the dll from you for a decent price.

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Lampton Worm
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Posted: 26th May 2004 13:58
Hi,

Thanks for answering the questions, that sounds good.

Although I can see what the admiral is getting at (personally I don't have a server and I'd rather rent bandwidth), but maybe you need to offer both options somehow.

I'd like to see this heading towards a TGC sponsored multiplayer game competition

Cheers.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 26th May 2004 14:16 Edited at: 26th May 2004 14:25
Quote: "Why not just make a dll for multiplayer instead of making us pay you for bandwidth??"


A server is needed for good multiplayer. This leaves two options:

A) You pay for an entire server yourself
B) You rent bandwidth from us and save yourself the server cost

Let me ask you these questions.

A) A net game is started on a computer. How are other computers suppose to find the host computer?

B) If you can find the host computer, how do you be sure the connection will work? They may be on cable, DSL, or dialup. And, as far as I know, cable users cannot host because of the local firewall.

C) If you have 100 people connected together directly (without a server) and 1 person tries to broadcast a 4 byte message, it becomes a 400 byte transfer process over that person's connection. Not to mention they might be receiving that amount of information at the same time from the other connected users. What happens when you try to get a big multiplayer game going and the local bandwidth load on each computer becomes too high?

A server is the answer to all of those things. Servers are not free, therefore we have to charge you for the service.

Our intention is not to make a multiplayer DLL, it's to make a SOLID multiplayer system/service that allows you to plug in to that stability using a connection library (a DLL for BASIC users).

If you want pier-to-pier connections and that functionality, then you already have that provided as part of DB. If you want server connections for stability, speed, and reliability... then we're providing this service to do just that.

Hope that clears it up.

Quote: "Some people have their own servers and stuff so it seems logical."


Then they shouldn't need our connection library. There is server side software that we're running to handle the connections. We would have to make all of that software available as well. And the library would have to be customized to work with their own system. So... either they write the connection systems for their own server, or they contact us to work on a direct integration/contracting job.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Mussi
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Posted: 26th May 2004 23:35
Quote: "B) If you can find the host computer, how do you be sure the connection will work? They may be on cable, DSL, or dialup. And, as far as I know, cable users cannot host because of the local firewall."


I have cable and I can host fine with it

sounds good, but I don't think there will be many making a fully playable multiplayer game .



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nuclear glory
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Posted: 26th May 2004 23:47
Quote: "I have cable and I can host fine with it"


Good deal. I couldn't. Are you plugged into a hub? The stupid cable connection left me in my game world all alone, lol.

Quote: "I don't think there will be many making a fully playable multiplayer game."


We will be. So... even if none of you guys use it, we will, haha

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Mussi
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Posted: 27th May 2004 19:17
Quote: "Are you plugged into a hub?"

nope



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nuclear glory
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Posted: 27th May 2004 21:23
That would explain it then.

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DarkSin
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Posted: 27th May 2004 21:30 Edited at: 27th May 2004 21:32
Sounds very nice, if you need anyone to help test out the system Id be interested in seeing it in action. I got a few programs im working on that this could help me out with allot.


nuclear glory
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Posted: 28th May 2004 01:45
Great. I look forward to having you help test it out. Once we get it ready to go, what email address should we contact you at?

Thanks for the help

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
DarkSin
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Posted: 28th May 2004 06:55
Same one on this profile . *Look Below this text*
Thanks for allowing me to help out . This should be a great service to the DBP community!


nuclear glory
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Posted: 28th May 2004 23:28
Great. I'm glad you offered. I'll be in touch. Might be a couple weeks yet.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 05:10
I had some personal problems early this month that set me back. This is still in the pipe and we should see a debut soon. Juggling a bunch of balls atm.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
David T
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 19:23
I'd be very interested The selling point for me would be how easy it is to program for. If it make with a good deal of automation for common tasks and an easy command set then I'd be definately interested

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 21st Jun 2004 07:46
@David T
Yes, I plan on putting in nice/easy high level functions to make net play as painless as possible.

The problem I'll have is determining how to handle overflow information. Professional games would be geared to send data at an expected rate as to not cause bandwidth burst problems. With the net library here, I have to create an internal management system that prevents users (you guys) from overflowing the data rate by doing something like sending messages as fast as the frame rate (IE: sending 120 net messages per second = mega large bandwidth burst = unhappy NG people)

It will have to queue messages, drop messages, or both. Dropping messages in a net game could be severely detrimental. (IE: A player "dies" and the packet with that info gets dropped)

So... I'll have to invent a crafty switcher function to handle the overflow. And I'll make sure to note in the docs that you should send AS FEW net messages as possible - else you face the wrath of the net message eater (dropping) system.


@All Users
This system is planned for big business. For anyone just hobbying or playing around, the fees for this system probably won't be practical.

What we're looking at here is a monthly cost from NG of around $30 to $50 a month to realistically allow 5 simultaneous users to play all month. Now... this may sound a bit hefty unless you did something like charged each user $20 a month to play your online game. Then you're pulling in $100 a month ($92.50 after processing roughly) and taking out your investment to NG leaves you with $42.50 to $62.50 in profit. That's like doubling your invesment.

After things pickup we may be able to drop prices a bit to help your net games grow.

This system will be designed for C++ mainly with wrappers for the BASIC languages.

We plan on using the system ourselves for large network games. We have some ideas in the pipe to handle MMORPG play. The prices to run a network handling that many users inflates exponentially. Imagine running 100 users at the above costs, that's 20 times the price and 20 times the income, pulling a massive $2000 a month in from net players. And that's not really all that many players anyhow. So... you can see how this is big business and how the network design is very important.

Getting on your feet as a netplay game designer would be the hardest step. As income grows and things pickup you could increase nicely.

If you were pulling a huge MMORPG game we would help you to get better data rate charges to bring your cost down.

There are a lot of variables here, but that's the just of it.

--- How we plan to start off

Alright, the network library I'm working on will have some early design stages to handle MMORPG style play, although I'm expecting more of a "multiple lobby" thing where you allow say 10 different net games with a max of 5 users in each net game. That would be 50 users and a nice monthly income for you and NG.

This brings me to my next point. We plan on offering an extended service for subscriptions. In short, we would handle the database of all of your "players" who have subscriptions as well as handle charging them the monthly subscription fee you have set, etc...

NOTE: This would be a purely optional service.

The cool part about all of this, is that you as a developer can focus on building/promoting your game and building up your income. And we handle everything else... so... we both win.

I'll admit that the above framework for cost, etc..., may not be suitable for all developers. So... we'll plan on leaving the door open if any serious developers want to put something together with us. We could negotiate very nice custom jobs with nice pricing. This would be for those of you who were setting up a serious netplay game and could pay $500 for 3 months of service (with a custom built library) while you quickly built your player database and start moving money. With the NG website and mailing list we could also help push your product. And on and on... we're very team oriented for whomever has serious plans.

--- What's next

Okay, rambling's done.

I'm going to put together a 1st version of the library. I'll send it out to you all with some example code and user access info so you can run your own tests of the system. I'll just assume you have a simple 3D framework on hand where you can plug in some net stuff to get your online world interacting.

After that 1st release is sent out we might try to coordinate some group play between all of the testers that volunteered. I'll build an EXE on my end and have a package put on the server for you all to download and we can move around in the world with each other (and chat hopefully).

We want to move with this fairly fast. After the first release we'll give you about 3 days to play with it and send us feedback. We'll do this one more time with another release (modified from your feedback). Then we'll make the 3rd release and call it the final product and send it off to the Program Announcement board.

Any questions/comments please feel free to post.

Any multi-million dollar ideas please email to: mdd@nuclearglory.com

P.S. If this happens to sound out of scope for a DB game just keep in mind that NG likes you all so very much we thought we'd give you a headstart to a potential fortune. Okay, but in reality it's not out of scope. All you really need to worry about in the net game is how much stuff is on the screen (an age old game problem anyhow) and not to flood the network communication (IE: 120 messages coming from each user per second).

P.S.S. A realistic data rate would be a 20 byte packet being sent from each user at a rate of 10 times per second to only 5 or 10 other players. We have some ideas on the network end to organize which users should be getting data from other users (VERY IMPORTANT for MMORPG), so you don't have to meltdwon your brain figuring out how to dance around idiot-design network code.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
nuclear glory
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 09:45
Something else I'm looking at is a server/pier-to-pier hybrid.

This would use the server as a connection intermediary (to keep everyone connected) while as much traffic as possible was transferred over to direct pier-2-pier connections between the players. This would drop server bandwidth a TON and allow you to put more players in the world together and send more net messages per second.

Depending on a ton of different variables, the bandwidth would be unpredictable in a good way.

I'll work on making the "purchase deal" as simple as possible for everyone. I don't want to bombard you all with :

"you get x,y,z kbits per second and use commands 1-100 to monitor your traffic, yadda yadda yadda"

I'd prefer a purchase deal more like this:

"you may connect a max of 'x' amount of users simultaneously per month and each computer can send 'z' amount of bytes per second"

Then we'll deal with all of the bandwidth nonsense and let you concentrate on your game.

Sound good?

Happy to hear some feedback.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 10:51
This sounds interesting. I have two questions/idea though:

(1) Would a host version of the software be running remotely on your server 24/7 so that people could connect to it? i.e. we program a hsot/chat room proggy and you run it for clients to connect to, or is this connection library you're talking about some intermediate system? Is the intention that the server would only handle data distribution and all processing would be done locally on each machine?

(2) You could always handle payment by charging the game players directly. Charge the game developer a processing fee to cover your expenses and cover your back from anyones multiplayer game failing. Then allow players of that game to subscribe to you, and pay you the money directly for their access to the game. This could be prenegotiated with the author. You then pay the author the appropriate cut after overhead/costs are taken out.

This way you're covered from failed projects by the processing fee. This way the author doesn't have to make any precalculations about how much bandwidth they need/users they will have. This way the author doesnt have to worry about 3rd party payment to themselves/administration.

The process would be:
-Author makes a game
-Author pays you an admin/set up fee to cover all your expenses
-Author has a set period of time to test the system (can be negotiated)
-When system is working fine:
-Players visit the authors game website
-Players follow a subscribe link to the NG website.
-Players pay NG directly online to subscribe to the game.
-NG deducts the relevant costs and profits, then makes a profit tab for the author of the game.
-NG can pay the author their money based on a pre-arranged amount threshhold, or monthly etc. (to be agreed upon).
-NG could also handle subscribe keys, as if NG is the only seller of keys and hoster of the games, faking keys would be impossible (cos of only one key database)
-NG could dynamically assign more/less bandwidth based on subscribers without the author having to always renegotiate.

If that wouldn't make your life too much more difficult/increase your expenses unrealistically, I think that'd be a much better process.
-From the authors perspective, the only financial concerns is that they can afford the setup fee, and they can get players subscribing before the setup period expires.
-From the players perspective, they will be dealing with your front end/payment which would look better than being asked to send the author a $20 bill in an old envelope to his mums house.
-From your perspective, you can drastically reduce the need to renegotiate with the author about bandwidth etc. You literally go "ahh, new user. Got his cash. Increase bandwidth to authors account accordingly. Add new users access key to database, so the new user can play. Credit authors NG account with his share of the profits. When it reaches $100, send him a cheque and tell him he's great."

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'd be much more willing to try that service. There'd be no guess work for me. All I'd have to do is pay the setup fee, get the program working, then market my game like my very soul depended on it.

nuclear glory
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:33 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2004 11:48
That all is very excellent, I agree totally.

The riff we might hit is developers wanting more control. I think we could start it out like you described and then expand the control/functionality later.

I've been number crunching with pricing/fees and stuff. It all looks very good.

Quote: "is this connection library you're talking about some intermediate system? Is the intention that the server would only handle data distribution and all processing would be done locally on each machine?"


Yes, all processing would be done locally on each machine.

It's an intermediate system that would allow you control where/how messages are sent to the other connected users. This leaves most of the logic to your software. Intermediate software design isn't really as bad as it sounds (on your end)... depending on what you're trying to accomplish. The intermediate software will allow you to customize how data is relayed to the others connected.

We'll be offering a separate system for MMORPG handling, as it's not realistic to put that handling on your end.

We do plan on making custom plans available as well. So... if you had a specific need that needed to be handled server-side we could coordinate a joint effort to make it work with you.

The server-side network software is not in the EXE format nor is the server a Windows machine. So we won't be able to upload a server side version of your game and have it act as the traffic cop. It wouldn't be entirely safe for us either, even if an honest mistake occurred and the EXE crashed. These are the core reasons behind the intermediate design.

Quote: "NG could dynamically assign more/less bandwidth based on subscribers without the author having to always renegotiate."


This is a good idea. It poses some technical challenges. This is mainly because the author could go over the capacity of what the server can handle. In that event, we would have to transfer all of the author's network traffic to a server with a larger capacity (especially with MMORPG). If the resources at the time are low, it could take a few days to get a new server setup, etc... And it would cause a bump in service where all players would have to reconnect. Otherwise, auto-adjustment would be just fine. I'll review this one as the author and players would need to be prepared for the "service bump".

Thanks for the input, I like how you have the service laid out.

If anyone has any more ideas, feel free to drop 'em here.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 15:05
Arghh. I wrote a huge follow up post, but lost it to some disconnection error. Anyway, to cut a long story short I said:

-Game authors are the main people involved, and the most fikkle. It'll be hard to get them to part with their cash if they are hobbiests, and just like the idea of getting their game online and maybe making a few quid. Therefore, you need to make the process as painless and risk free for them as possible (looks like you'll be doing this)
-Game players are the authors ticket to success and a few quid, so it'll be up to the authors to impress the players, provide feedback, patches, tech support etc plus marketting (also an offline playable demo would make sense).

My main concerns if I was going to sign up are:
-Cash: how do I handle it? I dont want to lose money. I want it to be risk free? How do I handle credit card info? etc. (All fine if you take the payments yourself and just credit the author)
-Bandwidth: how do I know how much I need? How do I organise my players? Will I have to keep paying for more? I'll have to keep a close eye on what I'm using etc. (All good if you're handling player subscription).

My main point was, most of us haven't got the business drive to make cash. It's just a nice idea to get your game online and maybe make a few quid in the process. Therefore we won't have the profit drive, and will be prone to just giving up and going down the pub. So making it as painless/ risk free for the author as possible is definitely the way forward.

I wish you success with this though, as it's something I would definitely use if I come up with a game I think its worthy of it. Good luck!

Lampton Worm
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 16:41
Hi,

I'd like to echo that Fallout's idea sounds really good, and it's something I'd be interested in if I had a game up for it.

Apart from the technology being sound, reliable and fast - making the process of using this service simple, is key.

Cheers.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 19:51 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2004 20:03
(Prices listed here might be tweaked a bit in the final release, but these are very close to how it'll come out)

Indeed and agreed.

The only issue I see with this system is it might be targeting a market of broke people, which would be a major oversight and a lot of development later, lol.

I ran some numbers and I think we can do something in this manner:

A) You signup for free
B) You're alloted the library to connect with yourself and/or utilize a small amount of bandwidth from us, this would allow you to test everything.
C) You set the subscription fee for your players (for a $10 or $15 subscription, we would take $2.50, leaving you with $7.50 to $12.50 in profit per subscriber)
D) We'll charge you a monthly service fee AS SOON AS you have your first 2 subscribers. The service fee would be $10 a month. (The neat part about this is that you would have already generated $15 in profit from a $10 per subscriber game, so we'd take the service fee from that, leaving you with $5 in profit plus your profit for any new subscribers during the month)
E) As new subscribers signup we'll automatically handle the increased connections and bandwidth, you'll never have to deal with it. We'll take the responsibility.
F) As things pickup, we'll allow you the option to increase the network performance of your game for either an increased monthly service fee, a larger deduction per subscriber, or both. So this is simple to understand: allow us more money, your game performs better, any questions?

So there you have it:
risk free, simple and easy, you just plug in and promote your game, make money, we do all the hard stuff, you never pay us a dime (unless you do something illegal and get us fined)

Things to note:
The number of simultaneous users allowed in a single net game will be limited UNLESS you're using the MMORPG software. We'll make an online panel system for you to control each game you're running, the fees involved (for increased or decreased performance), etc...

Your end:
The library will have a function that tells your application the number of bytes it can immediately send (without your packets getting queued and/or eaten). You would continually call this function BEFORE sending network messages to make sure the messages will in fact make it. The return value from this function will be unpredictable at any given time, so your code MUST adjust to handle it otherwise your online net game will do weird things. We'll probably invent a call to randomize the return values from the function for testing purposes on your end, this would allow you to make sure your code is adjusting properly and not oversending. There will also be a command to measure your net message sizes before sending them (so you can compare them against the return value from the other function, etc...)

Abusers:
Here is where this thing will go sour. A simple example is that an author promotes a product and it doesn't deliver/operate properly and this results in us refunding subscribers. Fortunately, this is something we could hopefully catch early on.

Conclusion

How's that?

Good... I'll punch out the next person who complains. (j/k )

The system will be easy enough that it'll probably pull in a bunch of noobs to programming. Not to be offensive, but after fulling designing that system and a bunch of noob emails roll in that ask "okay, so how do I make a net game?" (while the library is fully documented with examples) I will have to try to revive my exhausted patience.

Once all of it is built and designed, I hope to increase the functionality/flexibility of this system to appeal to professional developers.

Anyone have any more ideas or see a problem with the above setup?

P.S. The fee we would charge for a $20 subscription would be $3 per subscriber. The fee we would charge for a $25 subscription would be $3.50 per subscriber. This equates to: (10% + $1) for any subscription rates over $15.

P.S.S. I would like to thank the TGC community for all of their support and feedback. It has been vital to the success and growth of NG. This is something I will remain forever greatful for.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 23:55
That sounds great. Not charging a setup/admin fee until the game has got a couple of subscribers is even better. If people don't have to pay a penny, then they really can't complain.

About the Noob problem ... there could be two guidelines to help limit this problem somewhat.

(1) Age limit - 16 or over would make sense, as you're earning money and you effectively have a job, so it'd make sense. That should weed out the 8 year olds (no offence to 8 year olds!)

(2) You must be able to download a fully working demo (without multiplayer code) of the game before you give them their trial account. You could even reject people if you think their game is crap, on the basis that you're running a business and you want to make money ... not make people laugh.

You should give yourself the power to decide if a program is unsuitable. After all, you wouldn't allow someone to use your facilities for a game that condoned racism, or sexual violence etc (I'm assuming!). There's nothing wrong with you as a businessman saying "I can't make money from this, because it's crap.".

I don't think the multiplayer code is so fundamental to a game that it can't be added after the game is to some level complete. People can still calculate how much bandwidth they'll need. It'll have to be a major oversight to write a program and then realise it won't work in multiplayer because you need too much bandwidth, for example.

That sort of system might help you weed out those that aren't serious. That way, you'll only start the setup process when you see a game is close to being complete and you have decided yourself its good enough to earn the moolah!

nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 00:45 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2004 00:47
I do plan on making the system with automatic signup and setup for authors. This would allow people to signup for free, plug in, and go.

They could make their game network compatible, promote it to death, and start pulling in money. If it works out nicely they could continue to use our service as laid out and we'll do what we need to keep them running.

Alternatively, we could put them on a dedicated game server if they want to upgrade. This would allow authors to use their own methods of receiving payments from users (if the wanted) or to potentially drop a significant part of their monthly cost if they decided to still use our subscription services. So... the dedicated game servers would be geared towards the smart business people and/or game professionals. The dedicated game servers would have a monthly cost and possibly a setup fee. These will be listed.

There effectively wouldn't be a "screening" process where we filter who the authors are. There definitely would be restrictions on content though, so if we catch any people violating those rules we'll simply warn and/or unplug them.

I'll design the system to do a dynamic server resource allocation to the authors as needed to keep their net games running with their increasing user base. So... this would take into regards the authors who just signup and do nothing... essentially no server resources would be allocated to them and our network would still scream right along.

Right now I'm working on the ratios so everything will balance out properly.

For the noobs I'll probably point them to the manual, examples, and forums and call it good. Telling them how to design a game goes beyond the scope of our service... and that should be the end of it.

Author earnings will be issued to the authors using PayPal. That will be the only method of payment for the time being.

The blueprints are becoming less nebulus and more concrete. Thanks for the help Fallout

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Fallout
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 03:31
No probs. Glad to help.

Sounds like you have a good concept locked down. If you can dynamically allocate resources, then, like you said, there's no real need to screen authors for quality, as they won't take up any bandwidth anyway if they're not playing.

If I think of anything else, I'll mention it here, but so far it sounds like you have the makings of a really good service.

shado
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 08:39
Sounds great. Not having to really handle any of the setup on our end really helps. One question, will the commands we use be basicly the same as the existing multiplayer commands? It would be nice to get to know them before we have to start paying, but ur system sounds easy enough that we wont really have to worry. So just ignore my rambling.

Nice system though.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 09:59
@Fallout
Quote: "If I think of anything else, I'll mention it here"


Good deal. Yes, please do post any other ideas you come up with.

@bored
Quote: "will the commands we use be basicly the same as the existing multiplayer commands?"


No, well, not exactly. There may be some similarities but we're not using the DBP/DB net commands as a guideline for our own system.

Quote: "It would be nice to get to know them before we have to start paying"


Yes, the system will allow you to test the service and net commands for free. You'll be allowed to connect up to 2 to 3 people together for free for the purposes of testing.

As mentioned in the plan above, we would take service fees out from your player subscriptions, so you'd never have to pay us anything directly. In the meantime, however, your online account will give you some limited access info so you can fully implement the library into your game. Then, once you're ready to go, you just promote your finished game with subscription instructions and that's it. We handle the subscriptions, take the service fees from those, and send you the profit.

--- News

I'm currently working on the online control panel for this system. We should see this stuff pan out fairly quick, and I'd like people on this WIP board to help me test the website control panel as well as the library itself. I'll provide info as soon as it's available.

Once we get some live-fire feedback from you all we'll make this service public.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 03:05
I see you talking about subscriptions....
Basically we're working on an FPS that right now is planned to have single player campaign mode, single player arcade mode (CTF, deathmatch, etc.). The only reason we haven't done a whole ton on multiplayer is because of absence of a service like this. However, we don't want our game to be like Planetside or Tribes where you pay a monthly fee just to play CTF with some friends after school.

I've considered using the standard DB tools, but renting out some bandwidth seems to make life a whole lot easier, and open up more options.

I'm starting to see how your service would mainly benefit those developing an MMO--it's just that I'm drastically opposed to MMOs because of monthly fees. Any word on what to do for people with different goals in mind?

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: KillZone
Web Site Button Does Not Work, Visit Here: http://www.geocities.com/crazydonutproductions/index.html
Fallout
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 04:11
Ok, this is just a quick glance into the future, but when NG is hosting a whole bunch of games from developers such as ourselves, NG could develop a game collection. By this I mean, authors who agree have their game added to a special subscriber game pack. People then subscribe to this pack, and get access to all the games, and can multiplay with people from any of them. Say you pay £15 and get 100 game credits or 40 hours of play (or whatever figures make sense). They can then play which ever games they like in this game pack, and it'll decrement their credits/time accordingly.

That might make more sense for the subscriber point of view. I can't see many people wanting to subscribe to a db made game, to be honest. Subscription is mainly for MMO and I doubt we'll ever see a good MMO game made in db. We might see some half arsed attempts, but I doubt they'll be good or indepth, cos it just takes far too much work. Maybe if it has a novel concept, it might work ... something really clever that doesnt need loads of work to make, but just has such a good concept it works for lots of peoples.

Anyway, I think subscription is mainly for MMO because they are indepth and have huge replay value. My racing game I'm making, for example, I dont think people would subscribe to. I know I wouldn't. I think it'll be really cool and playable, but not something anyone would be willing to pay on a regular basis to play.

Also, a problem I see with subscription is, someone subscribes for a month and then wants to play the game, but there isn't enough people playing for them to have any decent games. Then they waste their money.

But, if you imagine people subscribed and went to a dynamic website/lobby which allowed them access to a bunch of games ... then things are different. They can download the games from the lobby, and see who's playing what. Then when they choose to play a game, depending on how long they play it for, their credits are deducted. The author of the game then gets a cut for their game being played.

As an author, the current system idea is appealing. As a player, I doubt I'd subscribe to any of them. Having said that, I don't really play online games at the moment, so I'm not really one to judge. However, I don't know of any other service that allows you to pay a subscription fee and play a whole bunch of exclusive games for one subscription (i.e. games you can't play anywhere else). In fact, in someway, it'd seem too good to be true. I can't imagine paying $15 and getting access to say, 15 quality looking games.

I can only see this benefiting everybody. To be honest, I doubt many games would get many subscriptions, when people can go off and subscribe to MMORPGs and the like, and play similar games of a higher calibre without any subscription at all (e.g. setting up your own BF1942 game etc.).

If your game is genuinely good, then you'll get most of the plays, and most of the cash. Either way, as an author, you're not paying anything, and if your game is crap, it'll still be in the pool, so it will at least get a few plays, rather than never being subscribed to. Also, if a customer subscribes to a game and it turns out to be utter crap, they really aren't going to be happy. With this system, they can go play another game, on the same subscription, and give their credits to someone else.

I guess summing up here, getting a subscription on the proposed system is like getting into an arcade machine, putting a load of money in it, and playing it till you run out of credits. The other idea is like walking into a whole arcade with a bunch of tokens in your pocket.

I don't know what you think about this Matthew. It's not actually that different to the current system. If anything, it could just work in parellel the same system. When an author signs up, they can choose to add their game to the "global game pool" or whatever you want to call it. They could carry on with their own subscription service to their game, as talked about above. However, you could also run the global game pool package, and give people access to all the games that the authors have put forward, on one subscription.

General process would be:
-Authors add their game
-They choose if it will be a subscribe game, a global pool game, or both.
-Player can subscribe to games and/or subscribe to the global pool.
-The global pool subscription cost gives a number of play credits, or gaming time.
-Authors get a percentage of the cash based on how much their game is played.

Cost example (simple numbers for easy maths):
-Subscriber pays $100 for 100hours of play.
-Play time is worked out as 15 minute slots, so when someone plays a game, it defaults to a minimum of 15 minutes.
-For each 15 minutes, we're looking at 25c of subscription cash.
-The author of the game played gets 20c, and NG takes 5c.

Benefits of this system would be:
-Much more exposure to your game. There's a chance of many more people playing it.
-Exposure for games that are less likely to be subscribed to on their own.
-Much more attractive package for the subscriber. I mean, in someways, if the games look good (from screenshots/descriptions etc), subscribing to 20 games for $15 will seem too good to be true.
-You could offer discounts, so the more you pay, the more credits per $ you get.
-In general, revenue should be increased hugely, I would imagine.
-The service would be unique.

Possible disadvantages:
-Good games may take most of the money.
-Direct subscriptions to specific games may go down, or die completely.

Ok, I'm aware this is a huge sudden rant, and sounds like a complete change from what I said above, but in essense it's the same system. People just pay differently. I just think this would be 100 times more attractive to prospectively players, as the db games are never going to live up to other pay per play games. And at the end of the day, it's the players spending the cash, so the better it is for them, the more money into the system.

nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 06:27
@Bear Crazy Donut Productions

Quote: "I've considered using the standard DB tools, but renting out some bandwidth seems to make life a whole lot easier, and open up more options."


Yes, we can offer both options. Authors could use the free subscription service or rent bandwidth. They both work out about the same.

We can offer accounts at 'x' amount of bandwidth a month and let you do what you want with it. If you go over the bandwidth limit we'd charge you an overage cost. The network software would meter your bandwidth usage.

Prices would work out something like this:
40 kbit account for $24.95 a month
80 kbit account for $47.95 a month

The bigger bandwidth accounts offer the best savings:
400 kbit account for $150 a month
800 kbit account for $230 a month
1.6 MBit account for $310 a month

The bigger bandwidth accounts would be better suited for MMORPG style games.

Overage costs would vary.

@Fallout
I like your pooling idea. It's great.

If any particular game drains the pool dry, we could just force it out of the pool and have people subscribe to it directly. The "pool" would be a great way for games to gain their initial startup exposure.

We could also have pools at different levels. For example, a low level pool of low quality games, a medium pool of medium quality games, etc... The higher level pools would cost more to be a part of.

It would be a lot like an arcade system, lol.

I'll full power this multiplayer system in any case.

I've about got the subscription system up and running already. I'll work on putting the straight up "purchase bandwidth" deal together for authors too (as needed with Bear Crazy Donut Productions). And finally, authors will have the option of renting their own dedicated game servers (for big boys).

I'll build a pooling system and work out how rates and charges should work for players. I think people who purchase bandwidth direct and/or rent their own game servers should be able to benefit from the pooling system as well (if they choose).

And... I'll put all of these options on the online control panel for the author. The control panel is already functioning and ready to grow.

And in the event that nobody uses our service, well... NG will use its own service and make a pool of its own multiplayer games, so there

Alright... if anyone comes up with any more ideas then please feel free to drop 'em here. I'm ready!

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
nuclear glory
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Posted: 30th Jun 2004 12:15 Edited at: 30th Jun 2004 12:44
Progress Report

Now that the forums live again.

The net library is coming along great!

The web and client ends have been 95% completed. The control panel and subscription system should be finished soon. I nailed out some security systems today with more in the pipe (to protect developers, subscribers, and ourselves).

Connections and everything all work beautifully.

All that's left is finishing up and making it public so it can undergo the intense scrutiny of the BASIC developers!

The final pricing options look this way:

Free Service
- You plug in all of your net games on our online control panel
- Each game may have an unlimited number of sessions online
- Up to 4 people can be in any session
- We handle all of the player subscriptions for you

-Subscription costs-
For each subscription payment to you we deduct $1.50 or 10% (whichever is more) plus an additional $2. Finally, we deduct $10 a month from your total earnings to cover service/admin fees.

-Bottom line-
You pay nothing. You focus on your game and bring in money. We handle all of the technical labor and big processing systems.


Bandwidth Service
- You plug in all of your net games on our online control panel
- Each game may have an unlimited number of sessions online
- The number of people per session is not limited
- You may use your own player subscription system, ours, or both (your choice)

- Prices -
(Setup is free on all accounts)
$24.95 a month - 40 kbps of in or out bandwidth.
$48.95 a month - 180 kbps of in or out bandwidth.
$94.95 a month - 380 kbps of in or out bandwidth.

[In the event that you begin to go over your transfer limit, the network software will begin disconnecting people until the combined data transfer is at an acceptable rate]

- Subscription costs (if you use our subscription system) -
For each subscription payment to you we deduct $1.50 or 10% (whichever is more) plus an additional $1.

-Bottom line-
You have more control. You decide how to use your bandwidth, subscription costs are lowered (if using our subscription system), and there are no monthly fees taken from your earnings.


Dedicated Service
- You plug in all of your net games on our online control panel
- Each game may have an unlimited number of sessions online
- The number of people per session is not limited
- You may use your own player subscription system, ours, or both (your choice)

- Prices -
(Setup is $20 on all accounts)
$85.00 a month - 380 kbps of in or out bandwidth.
$145.00 a month - 800 kbps of in or out bandwidth.
$265.00 a month - 1.6 mbps of in or out bandwidth.

[In the event that you begin to go over your transfer limit, the network software will begin disconnecting people until the combined data transfer is at an acceptable rate]

- Subscription costs (if you use our subscription system) -
For each subscription payment to you we deduct $1.50 or 10% (whichever is more) plus an additional $1.

-Bottom line-
(Much like the bandwidth purchase option)
You have more control. You decide how to use your bandwidth, subscription costs are lowered (if using our subscription system), and there are no monthly fees taken from your earnings. You save money over the bandwidth purchase options. Additionally, the large amount of bandwidth well suits big games. This makes a nice upgrade and increased income for the avid business person.

Upgrades

You may upgrade or downgrade between any of the service plans at anytime. You're in control.

Programming Aspect

As far as programming goes for the developer (you) the system is insanely easy to use. A LoadNetworkEasy() function was created to let you handle the authorization, connection, and startup in one swoop.

You have the ability to broadcast message and/or private message other users in the same session with you. All of the user management is handled internally and silently for you. You're notified when someone connects and/or disconnects (so you can handle in-game players).

At any time you may request the full list of sessions in action. The list is handled internally and your notified when it's finished loading. Each session has a name and the number of users in it.

To join a session you simply call JoinNetGame() and you'll be connected and ready to play. You can even call this command to change between the sessions your in. If the session is full you'll be left in your current session (if in one). If the session doesn't exist, it'll automagically be created for you and you'll be alone in the session until someone else connects to it!

There's more, but I'll let you play with it on release.

Speed

DO NOT compare these commands with the ones you may be acustom to in DB. This is a custom system and runs directly on dedicated servers, therefore, when you tell it to move, it moves! The net sessions are all right there, and when you go to connect to a session you'll be transferred as fast as the bytes can move.

Conclusion

We believe this will be an effective system, affordable, and useful multiplayer system. It should appeal to developers in all categories.

Some of the more advanced ideas (sales/games pooling, etc...) will come later should the service expand well.

Any questions, please feel free to ask.

We're pending launch.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Bulleyes
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Posted: 30th Jun 2004 16:22
Hmmm... that sounds quite interesting. But what if I just need a decent and generic network engine for LAN game? I can see your engine only works if the game is gonna be played on the Internet. Most multiplayer games these days still support both LAN and Internet game. I am looking for a network engine that can cater to both. (Actually, I am creating one currently.)

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
nuclear glory
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Posted: 30th Jun 2004 17:07
Quote: "But what if I just need a decent and generic network engine for LAN game?"


The connection/network library is essentially free. The purpose behind the library is to work with our service directly rather than provide generic connection technology. So... we won't afford to implement commands (and support them) for technology we won't be benefiting from. Comes down to economics, if we had lots of free time without cost then it might be something we worked on.

So... you'd have to create your own LAN routines.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Shadow Light
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Posted: 1st Jul 2004 16:44
Now I realy need the next version of your Collision DLL so I can finish coding the core part of my game and begin the multiplayer and online coding. But Me real Happy to see someone helping DB games go online. And I think the Pooling idea would be the way to go. Imagine being to play Room War, Roswell Racer, ETV Racer, Grunt, Soul Captor Online, or Starwraith 5 and at anytime being able to change which one you want to play. ALL FOR A SIMPLE MONTHLY FEE!!!

Anyway, time for me to start holding my breath again. *inhales*


To Fragg or Not To Fragg....
Yea right. Let's FRAGG EM ALL!!!!
nuclear glory
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 04:33
It's official. Shadow Light is a hardcore fan. When we start offering the leather jackets from NGDN remind me to hook you up with one! They're gonna rock!

- Net DLL news

Well, it's coming along great! I've been spending the large amount of my time working on security and anti-abuser systems, lol. The subscription system (and our responsibility to the subscribers) increased the security work significantly.

And you all said you wanted a game pooling system, so I'll build that ASAP too. Then, I'll give all you WIP people a chance to get in there and play with it. Then we'll release it.

Release is right around the corner. (literally, so don't get sleepy)

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
DarkSin
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 08:25
Hmmm good thing ive been summer and ive been staying up till 6:00 in the morning .


Shadow Light
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 15:50
MmmThammmmnksmmmmm...MMmmmmmMmxmmmLarmmmmgemmm....

To Fragg or Not To Fragg....
Yea right. Let's FRAGG EM ALL!!!!
shado
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 23:19
Yippy!!!! Finally
So we can only have 4 people in a room for the 'free' service?
nuclear glory
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2004 03:31
Yes, that's correct.

You're allowed to connect up to 2 users for free (without subscriptions) so you, as the developers, may test the system.

Any other people logging on would have to be subscribers to your game (so you'd be making money if they were players, or you'd be purchasing subscriptions yourself for whatever reason). You need not worry about allowing too many people on the system, as our software will verify that they are true subscribers before letting them log on. (it's all integrated into the plugin for you)

From the control panel, you can choose between 3 settings on the free service:

- 4 people per room, each allowed to send up to 200 bytes per second
- 3 people per room, each allowed to send up to 300 bytes per second
- 2 people per room, each allowed to send up to 600 bytes per second

And finally... the cheapest monthly subscription you may offer is $4.95 a month. If you're a developer and you want to be able to connect more than 2 other developers to help you test the system, we offer special pricing:

$3.50 for 1 extra developer a month
$5.50 for 2 extra developers a month
$7.50 for 3 extra developers a month
(and so on...)

Feel free to post if you have any other qwuestions.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
nuclear glory
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Posted: 5th Jul 2004 14:49
It lives!

I just need to touch up the webpage, code the wrapper for the C++ version (for DB friends), and work on the documentation and examples. A few more tests will be needed to test integrity and abuse resistance systems, then she'll be ready to rumble.

I will have everyone here (including those who have volunteered) go to the site, sign up, download the library, integrate and test by themselves, etc... You ought to be able to use the service without asking me how to use it. That's the goal.

This will help me nail down anything that's confusing, missing, or malfunctioning.

Let's get this done this week.

I'll have the page out to you all within 24 to 48 hours.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
DarkSin
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Posted: 5th Jul 2004 18:07 Edited at: 5th Jul 2004 18:07
Awsome! Im all geared up for the testing! Hahaha this should be good, I must say this looks like another winner by the nuclear glory team if all works out right!


Shadow Light
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Posted: 6th Jul 2004 05:14
I have to wait just a little longer for the NGC update before I can get my demo ready for networking, but..... yaw haves a good o'time a testin te Net tingy four may.



To Fragg or Not To Fragg....
Yea right. Let's FRAGG EM ALL!!!!
nuclear glory
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Posted: 7th Jul 2004 16:07 Edited at: 7th Jul 2004 16:11
@DarkSin
Thanks


--- Everyone ---

Okay, the DBP wrapper has been completed and appears to be working beautifully. A set of 4 different examples files have been created to demonstrate how to use the system.

One of them is a chat application. It is important to understand that not anyone can just sign on to your network game. They must be an authorized developer (authorized by you on your control panel) OR a subscriber to the game, otherwise they will be barred from trying to connect to your online game.

Because any free accounts may only have up to one other developer help them (for free) making a max of 2 people in the chat, I want to coordinate a 4-way chat going through my account. To do this, I'm going to need to know your usernames (at NG) so I can put you in the list on my control panel of "authorized developers" so you will be allowed to connect to the chat.

We've setup a page for the service that may be found at:
http://www.nuclearglory.com/nn/
(this isn't publicly ready just yet, so don't promote it until we get the wrappers, etc... finished)

You can also signup right there if you don't already have an NG account. If you already have an NG account, login and surf to the Developer Center to approve your author status.

I know DarkSin is ready to go, so send me over your NG username (once you get one) so I can put you in my "authorized developer" list right away.

The only thing(s) needed now to launch this service are a small tweak to the membership system, the reference manual, and preparation of the other 2 wrappers.

To begin testing, we just need the member system tweak and for me to upload the wrapper for you all.

I'll be posting the download link ASAP (as soon as I verify a few things)


@Shadow Light
After getting this out, it'll be a big heads up for the next NGC release. We'll be on it full time.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
DarkSin
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Posted: 7th Jul 2004 16:40
All Sent .


nuclear glory
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Posted: 7th Jul 2004 19:49
Okay, I fired an email back off to you with instructions and a download link. I'm going to add you to my MSN so we can keep in contact while testing.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
las6
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Location: Finland
Posted: 7th Jul 2004 21:10
let me get this straight. This system is for connection management and data transfer only, right?

So, basically you'd still need a server. For a 24/7 game, you'd have to buy one. Most games just don't work very well in peer-to-peer enviroments. Just think about it, even with the same data, different comps could in some case produce different results. You'd need some centralised processing. and that's gonna cost too. Of course, your system could be used to connect that server to the players as many people are behind a NAT or isp-side firewalls that prevent people from hosting and so on...


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