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Geek Culture / 3D Live Chat in DBpro based on the Forum (has anyone tried)?

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zircher
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 05:24
Teleportation/Jump pads might be easier than taxis. A ban/kick rifle with laser designator would be cute.
--
TAZ

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

Game Beavers
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 05:54
Ahhh, but you can't talk to people in teleportation/Jump pads. Since this is going to be a 3D chat, you'll be forced to talk to someone in a taxi.

I like the laser idea though.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
HZence
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 06:20
I'm going to play devil's advocate...

KEEP DREAMIN', JUST LIKE THE MEGA TEAM, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!









Now, prove me wrong.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
zenassem
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 06:48 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 06:57
I didn't think of actual taxis, But i did think of having:

- Trams like in the opening to Half-life.
- Speed walks (you know those powered conveyers you see at airports.)
- Vertical and horizontal elevators.

heehe, reminds of the end "Charlie & the Choclate factory" the Great Glass Elevator speil. Something like "they can go upways, & downways, & sideways, & zigways .... can't really remeber it right but I know it's funny!

- And I also wanted to have warps, just so you don't have to walk everywhere. Plus it will be a good escape route to get away from those mods with the "Flame" throwers!


------------------------------

First we just want to get everything working in an open space, then a room, 2 rooms... etc...

But I have great confidence in this team. CattleRustler and Mnemonix are dedicated and hard workers.
They have both amazed me with their:
-knowledge, attention to detail, & a strong dedication to get things working at all cost.
-discipline (We actually had a successful sheduled IRC meeting, and everyone showed up on time). I can't even get people I work with (who get paid) to accomplish that!
-ability to design, and discuss openly without egos.
-forsee problems and ability to look at different angles for solutions.
-are open to suggestions and criticism, and willingness to explain their ideas in an effective manner.
-energy, excitement, humor, and respectfulness (This makes the work much easier and the moral has been high (although early in, we have already faced roadblocks and cool heads, patience, and dilligence prevailed)

We have many more trials that we will face and some of the hardest are to yet to come.
- Endurance, and steadfastness (getting over the newness is something that sinks many a project in the "Compuda Triangle", including some of my own!)
- Dealing with complexity (as it grows problems find a way of hidng in your code, usually the last place you are thinking of)

hehee, reminds me of a George Carlin rant. "Ever noticed that when you look for something, it's always in the last place you look? Well of course it is STUPID! Because after you find it, your not going to look for it anymore. Hey, look! I found it! .... But let me look around for it a little bit more"

- Filtering/management/leadership etc... (Great ideas have a way of getting you to leap before you crawl, It's easy to get caught up in the excitement, and rather on getting the foundation to work properly you rather spend your time working on 20 bazillion cool things that you have no idea how you are going to complet them. Whilest your code sits in a Weaved, & Tangled mess.

It takes a good project lead to keep everyone's eyes on the immediate goal, while he/she is guiding and looking ahead to where things should eventually wind up. Staying on course is tough, A project lead acts as a compass and his/her job is to make sure that the team meets at waypoints and that everyones bearings are accurate and their sights are Focused. Withouth this many a project dissapear into the abyss aka "The Land Of Great Ideas That Went Astray Never To be Completed Or Heard From Again". I have used that as my home address from time to time.

Only time will tell if we have what it takes, my confidence is 100% with them.

~zen


CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 07:33
ok now back to reality...

mnem, that dll is a pig!
I was able to use the server app I had here to stress test the client and two things are horribly wrong.

1) the timeout argument in the connection method will set and lock that connection to that time out value forever, hence successive calls to TCPPrint (Sending data from client) will continually build and ever-growing ball of badness until the dll finally crashes! Not to mention that it (the set timeout value) will also hinder the whole timing of the app and has ruined the keystroke buffer routine.

You cannot send data out of the client any faster than what was specified in Timeout during TCPOpenport. I proved this by using the automated outbound messages (which have their own timer based delay) and I purposely set it very fast (100ms) between calls, but with an initial connection timeout of 1000ms - the messages only left the client at 1000 not 100, and I know this for sure because my vb.net server was sending back the messages and counting them and logging them as well.

Remember what we said, we'd use network.dll and see if we could break it or not? Well, I have broken it.

Barring all of that, and the delay/timeout issue, even if I set the timeout to 1000ms and send automated messages at every 2000ms, the app will run for a bit (2-3 minutes) and still it will just crash - again logging the crash within the dbp client itself yields that TCPPrint is failing unexpectedly. And yes DBP is writing the "CrashedOn..." text file to the exe dir.

But we shall persevere!


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 07:34
@Yellow

Not sure if the virtual chat area as a whole is going to in fact be that big. Imagine something like a large biosphere, which covers maybe several hundred yards.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 07:35
mnem see above


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 08:08
I saw, we will just have to find a new one

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 10:26
or write our own



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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 10:35
Indeed, but it doesnt seem to be working. No doubt we will find a way past this temporary hiccup. Maybe when(if) IanM releases his net library we will have something to work with.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
zenassem
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 10:42 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 10:43
Mnemonix, I think CR can write it himself. I might not be remembering it correctly but I believe he said that he could do it in vb and exeat would wrap it. My memory hasn't been too great this week, so I could be mistaken.

Of course CR could break it. He's like a Bull in a China Shop!

Hiccup!

~zen


Mattman
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:25
Menm > Ian said his network dll isnt going to happen anytime soon.

"Could you do something where you don't need a video card cause i don't have one" - Program Expert
Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:30
*Sends assassin squad to midlands volcano lair*

GRRRAARAOOAOOAOARRRR!!!



Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:35
Why not visit Nuclear Glory? (I swear he doesn't pay me to say this. )

In the meantime, perhaps you could call the community to make a bunch of media and start designing the world. Maybe even code some basic moving and talking routines.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:40
The way best to get the community involved at this point, is just to get ideas, concept art of what it could look like. I havent discussed this idea with the others yet, but if people could send concept art and be prepared to help model the environment we will be most greatful. The coding is on hold atm.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
Ilya
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:46
i like the idea of money in the thing. i can model good lightmapped environments in cs(you'll have to scale them down).

-Ilya
CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:49
Zen is right, I have already what we need but its in .net and we are trying to avoid including any .net in this project because then it would force all of the client users to have the framework which is a 26 meg dload. Anyway I have sent Exeat an email asking if he would write a simple tcp sockets dll in C++. As for as the rest of the client code, the modular framework is in place and it is all but finished as a fully functioning text chat in pure DBP. Just have to finalize the protocol with the guys and write the parser.dba for it.

At this point we would release this text chat app and enlist some people to help stress test the server - which is in development by mnemonix atm.


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:50
can you send us screenshots.

The problem is, people could spend a lot of time working on scenes, and then not have them put into the actual environment.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:53
Update on what CR says. The server application will have a dedicated IP. We will be requiring around 30 beta testers, sometime next week, you will just need to download a basic client, and we are not sure what the stress test will be yet, but if your interested then stick around for the details .

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:55
I'd be more than happy to have a goal at modeling what I think Geri looks like. Here's some concept for ya!


http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/g/images/grotes_gollum.lordrings.lg.jpg

Since this is for the DB community, I think it would be fun to model what a few of our avatars represent.

Take a stab at these two.




A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:59
lmao...

Not sure how avatars, etc are going to be done yet. A lot is still to be decided...

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
Eric T
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:00 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 12:01
LOL, I can't model my avatar now or any of my past avatars.... too much of a pain.


Oh and i hope this isn't a replacement for IRC... cuz i dunno about these 3D things, just seem more hastle for us idlers... unless it has voice support, if you create voice support then i will tell IRC to go f*ck itself and switch to your system...

(oh and what are you doing as for chat moderators... you gonna do different levels of them or what.... [oh come on, i love discussing moderation, its my most brought up subject])



Eric


\Edit/ And windowed... this thing has to be windowed...

Come join us in IRC #darkbasic on the irc.chattingaway.com
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:08
Lol ok :-P. Maybe we can have a basic character for those without custom models(providing we have a system for custom models). My plan is to have a simple character with your 2d avatar floating above your head or something.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:13 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 12:14
Eric, no worries. That's why I'm hear to model (or attempt to model) a bunch of characters.

Non-animated or textured


Sounds good Mnemonix. Don't mind me modeling stuff. Anything I make and post here feel free to use .



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Eric T
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:16 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 12:18
LOL, i could just Rip a seifer model outta the FF8 disc... but it would look better if it were modeled by someone so it dosen't look wierd.

Come join us in IRC #darkbasic on the irc.chattingaway.com
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:18
Lmao @ fred flintstone. Looks abit overkill though, but then, it was done in 16minutes .


Btw. NEW AVATAR AND SIG!!!. Thnx to Dgirl for making my avatar!

The 3d chat is coming...
In the meantime, come in the IRC. Ask me for details!!.
Preston C
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:19
So we're allowed to make some character models? Ooh...let me try and make a few

Cheers,
Preston


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MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:24
I don't know if we're allowed. I just make them anyway.

Preston, I know you like Mechs, so that might be cool.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
zenassem
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:27
I'll be coding the parser throughout the weekend, starting tomorrow morning.

CR, I just missed you on IRC. But I'll talk with you tomorrow.
{..}
oo


Manticore Night
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:27
I'm gonna be a cube! YEEEEEAAAAHA!!!

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:28
You can make them, whether they will be put into the environment or not is a different thing entirely. Try to keep them low poly and easily animatable. When we get further in we will be able to describe what animations are required and what frames they need to be etc. I would love to see some concept art of what the environment could look like. Im thinking of making a little overhead map of my ideas.

The 3d chat is coming...
In the meantime, come in the IRC. Ask me for details!!.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:32
rofl.

There will have to be some discussion on model parameters like size, polys, format etc. This is all fun and funny but I don't want to get too far ahead of the task at hand, and see this whole thing crash to the ground. I, for one, don't plan on letting that happen.




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CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:32
zen did you get my email?


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:36
Cattlerustler is right, I must emphasise the fact that the most rudimentary stuff, although boring is a hypothetical backbone in all projects. This is where projects die, when they become too ambitious and everybody gets their own ideas and has different views to every1 else. I realise the entire project is waiting on me now. Dont let this discourage everybody. Work on media, if you want to have your own custom avatar, but that doesnt mean it will be included, we simply do not know at this stage.

The 3d chat is coming...
In the meantime, come in the IRC. Ask me for details!!.
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 13:15
Model Specifications and things to keep in mind.

By all means, I'm not leading this team, but I would hope to contribute some media. Having done some multiplayer coding myself, and media for a multiplayer game, I know a few killers that will get this project killed.

***The number 1 killer will be to get ahead of ourselves like mentioned above. Unfortuantly, I've already fallen for this a bit. ***

1.) Textures. Textures are the main killers of just about everything. Anything larger than 512x512 and you'll start to see large slow down. Expecting this be a mmorpg with 10+ people on screen, this will be the major slow down.

2.) Polygon limitations. Anything above 1,000 polygons will have to be tossed. Polygons take longer to render, and increase file sizes which take longer to load. It's hard enough to keep the minimum system specs with DBP as it is.(Though in time things will keep getting better. Haven't built in .exe under 5.4 though, so maybe things are already better)

3.) Animations. Lots of animations going on at once slow things down. It's also best to get as few frames as possible for the animation(Thus decreasing file sizes).

4.) 1 big object will load faster than 100 small ones. Not sure how things will handle here, but 1 big 100,000 polygon object would load faster than 100 1,000 polygon models.

More tips&stuff to come...

Here's an update. It's animated, I just can't texture worth crap.




A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Preston C
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 13:18 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 13:30
[Edit] ARGH!! Mike you beat me to a model guideline...this has been happening to me a lot lately...

Quote: "Preston, I know you like Mechs, so that might be cool."


Heh, haven't made a mech model in a while. My Bow Cannon mech is in need for an updated model anyway.

Quote: "There will have to be some discussion on model parameters like size, polys, format etc."


Hmm...maybe this could be a template we could go by (though, feel free to change it (could use a different animation set) its merely a suggestion...)

Format: .dbo or .x
Model Polycount: 1500 or Less
Textures: 1 Texture, Recommended Size 512x512

Max Sizes (Personal Preference): 10x10x10
Max Sizes (Suggestion According to Other Sources): 50x50x50

Animations:
Idle - 1-20
Walk - 21-40
Sit Down (Onto Chair)(Get Up if Going Backwards) - 41-60
Sit Down (Onto Ground)(Get Up if Going Backwards) - 61-80
Chat (Casual) - 81-100
Chat (Angry) - 101-120
Slap with Trout (May Require Other Data) - 121-140
Dance - 141-160

Right now I'm working on a few character models (two of which don't really resemble anyone on these forums). I'll give you a hint on who they are...one of em has two scimitars and an interracial love life, one is armed with a sword that can burn the skin off of anyone he wills it to, and one that resembles a forum members avatar that is green and has a robot that likes tacos. If you can guess who all of them are, I'll give you a cookie. Hopefully I can actually finish em though (and give them decent textures).

Cheers,
Preston


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 13:49
Just a dumb question,
How is everybody using the program going to get models for everybody's avatars? Will you have to submit your model and then have some admin stick it in the next update or what?

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MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 14:19
I don't think we're going to do everyone's avatar. I was just doing one as a joke for IanM and RobK, for everyone knows them for there avatars.

I imagine we'll be just doing simple generic characters.

A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Manticore Night
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 15:08
It wouldn't be hard to put in custom ones tho, eh.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
HZence
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 16:55
I could probably find a 3D model of diddy kong somewhere. I'll look right now actually.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
HZence
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 17:00
I had this 3D model in mind actually...



But I can't find it, in any format...


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 22:56 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 22:58
GOOD NEWS: I am proud to announce that Exeat has officially joined the team, and he will be handling backend client-server tcp communication (building the dll we will use for comms). WELCOME ABOARD EXEAT!

Everyone will have to have everyone elses model on their local machine. People will upload their models to the server and the client will pull the files down.

Luckily we dont have to pass animation data thru the server, just a simple Play-Stop directive. Preston has the right idea where anims should be certain preset frame numbers, then the call could specify the preset block instead of a group of numbers. Only 3D positional data needs to go thru the server.

We are grateful to everyone here for their ideas and input! Keep working on your models and textures and ideas and keep posting! Like I said earlier I refuse to let this project die - no matter what it takes. Things are moving along quite nicely now


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:31 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 23:33
Wow, first time I've seen CR do something rather then just moo...

Quote: "Polygon limitations. Anything above 1,000 polygons will have to be tossed. Polygons take longer to render, and increase file sizes which take longer to load."


Well...it's going to be pretty hard to cough out a decent level with only 1000poly to work with. (And that's not even counting the lightmap, which will slow it down even more)

Well we could use lightmaps baked into textures, but it won't look to well on complex scenes.

I'm going to try and model that Japanese skycity if nobody minds.

Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:37
Remember that afawk the whole area is going to be interior. This project is getting out of hand

The 3d chat is coming...
In the meantime, come in the IRC. Ask me for details!!.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:56
erm...what? :S

Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:57
afawk = As Far As We Know


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 23:59 Edited at: 24th Jul 2004 00:14
oh....so that's what it means...

But interior areas can still easly gain in poly.

EDIT:

As for the models, I call the robot thing!



Dave J
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 00:14
I'd imagine the 1000 poly restriction was just for avatar models anyway.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 00:25
Zen, your email account is full...


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zenassem
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Posted: 24th Jul 2004 00:30 Edited at: 24th Jul 2004 00:32
@CR Darn groups flooded my inbox. Clearing it now.

"Aint No stopping us now! da dat dada It's alright"
"Aint No stopping us now!..."


Quote: "GOOD NEWS: I am proud to announce that Exeat has officially joined the team, and he will be handling backend client-server tcp communication (building the dll we will use for comms). WELCOME ABOARD EXEAT!"




8 's for the amount of times I read it. Just to make sure it said what I thought it said!

Yayyyyy!!!!!

Makes me very happy. Welocome aboard Exeat! My confidence just rose another 1000%

Ok. Back to Business.

~Zen


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