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Geek Culture / Conspiracies

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empty
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 04:50 Edited at: 14th Sep 2004 04:51
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Well, liberals (or liberal parties) can be on either side of the political scale- or more precicely everywhere on the scale. That depends on area, time and other factors. In Europe liberal parties tend to be right of the centre. The "liberal" part of those parties leans towards economy and trade (less governmental control).

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 04:59
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The way the term's used over here, it refers to a fairly wide scale from the center to the left. I have never once heard the word liberal used to refer to the right.

Damokles-> They're both vastly to the left; no, I suppose they wouldn't be in the same place.

And what place ever did reach total communism? It's impossible! You know a government system is flawed when with whole nations willing to give it a try, it never manages to achieve even rudementary stability in its ideal state .

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empty
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 05:13 Edited at: 14th Sep 2004 05:14
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Quote: "The way the term's used over here, it refers to a fairly wide scale from the center to the left. I have never once heard the word liberal used to refer to the right."

Yeah that depends on the actual meaning of the word. Especially in Europe (and there esp on the continent) the word liberal has a different meaning in the political world than for example in the sociological world. If we say a "liberal country" we usually mean a country with a general tendency of "laissez faire". A "liberal party" however will most likely not represent this policy.

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Damokles
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 05:22
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I think that if you go to a communist country (or a socialist one), the left side of your picture will be more developped and the right one will be simplified.
The better one would be an addition of both pictures.

But in my mind politics are not that linear, it's much more complex than a line. Like this a political philosophy could be in an One-dimensionnal Array. But I believe, you need much more dimensions to represent the truth.

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 05:29
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That line doesn't represent moral issues (which of course tie into politics on all levels, but attempting to divide them here...), but it does represent a changing political philosophy which is fairly linear: The right is power in the hands of representitives/dictators/kings, a world of personal gain and the concept of free enterprise, and the left is power in the hands of the masses, equality in quality of life and global uniformity. Though many people have tried to seperate those things, they go hand in hand-- history proves this better than any conceptual argument.

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Neofish
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 05:55
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well the left and right are similar so the line is curved

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 05:57
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Almost a circle, really. Both pure communism and a totalitarian empire give absolute power over the masses to a very few people (despite futile attempts at pure classlessness in the first form mentioned).

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 06:04
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Communism is supposed to be the perfect governmental system, but all the countries that use it use it wrong I learned this is 7th grade. I have nothing against communism, if it worked, it would actually be one of the best forms of government out there. Socialism is what I like, since Canada is a socialist government.


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empty
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 06:13
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Quote: "Socialism is what I like, since Canada is a socialist government. "

Since when?

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 06:15
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Quote: "Socialism is what I like, since Canada is a socialist government. "


WHO told you that?

I really don't think you understand socialism at all... it has never worked, and will never work. I suggest you read The Law.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 06:24
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Canada is more liberal than America if anything. Because the Liberal party is in power in Canada doesn't make it socialist. We have social programs, but nothing unlike what other "western" nations have.

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Damokles
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 06:27
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Quote: "Communism is supposed to be the perfect governmental system, but all the countries that use it use it wrong I learned this is 7th grade."

All the countries use it wrong ? ... It's almost impossible to use it right if there are capitalist countries on the world.

Quote: "Socialism is what I like, since Canada is a socialist government."

That is new to me
If you said Cuba, ... maybe, but surely not Canada.

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Sparda
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:19
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Michael Moore is an extremely talented man. What are his talents? Manipulating facts and distorting the truth. Yes, I hate him. After watching Bowling for Columbine, I was sickened by how he took two teenagers to Kmart hq to return the bullets left in their body. Is this trying to make a statement? No, it is nothing more than manipulating two more teenagers and a tragic incident. Does he really care about gun control? I doubt it, Like the majority of people, he is more interested in building him self a bigger mansion. The thing I hate most is that Moore blatantly makes up facts. Yep, he just makes up crap that sounds good. But that's ok, the media is pretty corrupt as a whole.

Anywho, on the subject of conspiracies, I have to say that the CIA planning 911 is utter bull. No, our government is not that diabolical and we aren't ruled by Nazis. This is the real American Nazi Party. It's totally hilarious.

[href]http:\\www.americannaziparty.com[/href]

As for really really hilarious conspiracies, search google for "black helicopters" and "chupacabra"


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David T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:28
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Quote: "Yes, I hate him. "


It all depends on your political stance. SOme love him, some hate him. What's the right answer? There is none.

He's generally better recieved in this country - I remember on a talk show he came in and got a round of applause after a particularly touching clip was shown.

He and a bunch of people who had lost their voiceboxes to passive smoking went to sing christmas carols at a cigarette company's HQ. Some employees were in tears.

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Neofish
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:34
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1. how the hell could they sing? maybe speak but not sing

2.
Quote: "He's generally better recieved in this country"
true, two boys in my class practically adore him

3. some of his points are justified - being able to get a gun in a bank (asking for it)

but he is a bit of a prat

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:36
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Quote: "SOme love him, some hate him. What's the right answer? There is none."


Very wrong. If someone distorts the truth and the facts, they're a bad person, and if they do it as much as Moore they're evil. It doesn't matter what party they're on. Bush and Kerry are both just about as bad as Moore.

Quote: "He's generally better recieved in this country - I remember on a talk show he came in and got a round of applause after a particularly touching clip was shown."


The UK is in general very liberal. I'm not surprised.

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David T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:43
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Quote: "1. how the hell could they sing? maybe speak but not sing"


Used those electric voiceboxes.

Quote: "Very wrong. If someone distorts the truth and the facts, they're a bad person, and if they do it as much as Moore they're evil. It doesn't matter what party they're on. Bush and Kerry are both just about as bad as Moore."


Yes Moore may distort facts but so do alot of people. Bush, Blair, Castro, North Korea etc. it'll happen everywhere. Its only that greater efforts are made to uncover misrepresentations when the people are famous or are not liked by you - Moore and Bush are examples.

But what I said stands - you can't say that you MUST hate moore, and you can't say you MUST like him either - it's up to you.

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:51
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Oops... I could've sworn I heard that Canada was socialist from many-a-teacher.


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Neofish
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 05:55
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lol are you sure they weren't drunk/stoned/both?

Quote: "But what I said stands - you can't say that you MUST hate moore, and you can't say you MUST like him either - it's up to you."


yup

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 06:04
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I like the idea that the moon landing was fake . I don't like it cos I believe it, I like it cos it's so rediculous.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/moon.htm

http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax/

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 06:35
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I think we need a new selection box on our ballots. It needs to be a respin for new candidates box. Everytime we get screwed over. I mean think about our last elections. I mean come on. It's like Bush Jr. VS Gore. Lose/Lose situation. Same this year. Bush Jr. VS Kerry We can't win for losing. Who actually picks these guys? More importantly why can't we vote on who to run for president. They need to pick like 20 people and let us narrow them down to like 4 then vote. And screw all this wasting money on advertisements. Just post a whole bunch of questions you want their oppinions on and put that in the paper. Maybe a couple of debates. That way there is no mud slinging. Then you cut the debt down like cuttin a tree with a small hatchet by cuttin the number of representitives down to like 2 per state and congress 1 per state. 1 congressman and 2 reps are plenty. States then complain about being bigger so they need more votes. Well just multiply their votes. Say a state has 16 just multiply each rep's vote by 8. Do the math on that money saved. Something like 540 people making x amount a year turned into 150.

We need a smart president for a change. What trips me out the most is all the quotes bush says. Do a search on google. One of my favs was "It's not the polution causing the problems ... Its the impurities in the air and the water." I almost died laughing when he said that.

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 06:52
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What we need is a turn back to the Constitutional standards of life in America. The government has grown too powerful and bloated and the popular statist viewpoint says that the government having power is a good thing. It is not. Political power is bad. The president and our other major elected representitives (governer, mayor) are elected to keep the government in line not to excersize the government's power-- but the world has forgotten that.

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Sparda
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 06:53
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Yeah, it would be much better if you could vote for more than 2 candidates for president. Nader doesn't count

One more stab at Moore. He doesn't just distort the truth and manipulate tragedies for self gain, he completely makes facts up and sells it to stupid, gullible Americans.

http://www.fahrenhype911.com Interesting huh?

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm50 blatant lies in Fahrenheit 911 alone. For a movie about about truth, thats a major Ouch


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Sparda
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 06:59
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I couldn't resist.. black helicopters are so funny!

http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters.html

http://www.ravenglass.org/BlackHelicopter.htm


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Chris K
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 07:33
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Quote: "The president and our other major elected representitives (governer, mayor) are elected to keep the government in line not to excersize the government's power-- but the world has forgotten that."


Qué?
The government is elected to keep the governement in line?
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David T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 08:07
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Quote: "he completely makes facts up and sells it to stupid, gullible Americans."


Agreed, but I bet for every fact that's faked there's a truthful one.

Your posts are very one sided, something you accuse Moore of being

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 09:08
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Quote: "The government is elected to keep the governement in line?"


The greatest representitives of the government are primarily elected to keep it in line, yes. Absolutely. Completely.

Quote: "Your posts are very one sided, something you accuse Moore of being"


You're missing the point. We're all one-sided: Our side. Moore LIES, however, and he's not. You're taking for granted that either everyone's lying or Moore's not at all!

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Sparda
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 09:23
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Quote: "Your posts are very one sided, something you accuse Moore of being"


Yeah, I know. I just can't stand when people actually listen to him.


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David T
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 16:42
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Everybody is one sided. Moore included.

If you have a problem with what he does, don't watch his films

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Damokles
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Posted: 15th Sep 2004 23:37
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Quote: "Everybody is one sided."


Sorry I have schizofrenia.


- Mind the gap -
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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 00:15
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David T, you're still ignoring the point: MOORE LIES. You can be one-sided without lying. See? What you're saying is sort of equivlant to 'Everbody has people they dislike; if you have a problem with someone murdering the people they don't like, don't pay attention to them!'

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JeBuS
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 01:48
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Everybody lies


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David T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 02:01
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Quote: "David T, you're still ignoring the point: MOORE LIES. "


Bush lies.

Blair lies.

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 02:04
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But do all polititians? Is Konrad? No and no (though the answer is 'most' to the first obviously). You're generalizing.

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Neofish
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 02:19
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any polition who doesnt lie:
1. is rare
2. is a bucket
3. will get shot
4. won't be believed
5. nieve/stupid/not telling u everything and is evil or something

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 02:19
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Quote: "3. some of his points are justified - being able to get a gun in a bank (asking for it)"


Come on--- that scene has been proven to be an act. Even Moore admitted that it was staged. The bank gave out certificates for guns, with which the customer had to go to a certain gun shop and possess the necessary gun qualifications to receive one.

This is another reason why Moore's movies are not documentaries. They're fiction--- plain and simple.

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QuothTheRaven
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We have been lied to about 9/11. About the planes that hit the towers, about the "plane" that hit the pentagon, about the collapse of the towers, there is so much wrong with the event. There is copious amounts of evidence to suggest that 9/11 was an inside job and not a simple terrorist attack.

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Neofish
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 03:58
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i think the most suspicious thing about the towers was the speed they fell after beig hit

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Chris K
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I don't know how you can think that everything Michael Moore says is lies. Even if it was 99% lies it doesn't discount the other 1% of points he makes.

It's probably about 5% lies and about 70% ridiculous bias.

Stuff like that clip of Bush just sitting there on Sept. 11 is just so obviously a complete cock-up on Bush's part.

What say ye to that? Why didn't he (after hearing that TWO planes had hit the twin towers) calmly say to the teacher that he had very important buisness and had to leave? If the UK had just suffered a devastating terrorist attack I wouldn't want Blair wasting any time at all.
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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 04:07
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He was shocked, and considering what to do. Probably not the most intelligent decision for a man of his mental power, but there you go, he didn't consider his consideration .

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Chris K
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The most powerful man in the world shouldn't get shocked. He should stay calm and alert. He should always be the voice of authority.

I really don't think Bush is quite up to being in such an awesome position.
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Neofish
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i dont think that most presidents should be

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Ian T
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None of the candadites ever have been, though, have they? I mean, not only do you have to go through law school, a political party has to love you. Heheheh...

By the way, I seriously doubt the President is the most powerful man in the world. Whoever's pulling the most strings in the Republican party is right now. And if Kerry wins it'll be the Democrats.

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Chris K
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So you think The President isn't really running the party? Surely he gets final say and all.

If the President didn't want to go to war they still would have?
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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 04:39
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Quote: " So you think The President isn't really running the party? Surely he gets final say and all."


Do you know much about American politics? God, no, he doesn't run the party. If a president pisses his party off before the election, someone else is put in his place. If he pisses them off after the election, he's impeached (never happened to my knowledge). It's not the president that has power.

Quote: "If the President didn't want to go to war they still would have?"


The president appointed a cabinet that supported his decision. Most of the republican party did also. Don't ask me 'if we still would have'; I don't believe the war in Iraq was planned before 9/11 like many people do.

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David T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 05:40
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Bush did have plans drawn up before he went to power about invading Iraq

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Ian T
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Nope. There's no solid evidence for that. Just testimony from one person who's already proven to have solidly inconsistent reports. But of course, you choose what you want to believe...

It's like all the people deciding Clinton didn't let bin Ladin go because he said so in an interview on TV. But everything Bush says needs solid evidence. Nice dreamworld

Not that that's you of course... just some people...

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David T
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 06:09
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Quote: "But of course, you choose what you want to believe..."


Same to you too

j/k I think any grudges that start in this thread stay in this thread

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Neofish
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Posted: 16th Sep 2004 06:16
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i think you need a certain degree of trusting your government, or somethjing, otherwise you wont be able to live a normal life

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Lost in Thought
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The president really doesn't have that much power and in our case it is a good thing. He has alot of power over war but thats about it. Be can only veto things so many times and if he wants something passed it still has to go through the house and congress. We haven't had a candidate for president that I can ever rememeber wanting to vote for instead of against his opponent. Its always the lesser of the 2 evils. Lose/Lose.

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