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Geek Culture / Why???

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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:13
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"Life is ment to be more enjoyed then .. you get the point"
I'm not saying it is necissarily the case with you but this is usually the kind of argument you get from people who already have a lot to enjoy. If I by having such a discussion as this can perhaps build up an understanding and that in the long run can lead to more democracy and fairness in the world then I am more than willing to "waste" a few minutes of my life now and then with discussing such issues. Besides, I like this kind of debate!

/ Andreas Mattsson
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astranominoff
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:15
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No, I don't have that much joy in my "life". I just don't think time should be wasted like this..Its pointless. Just go and sue or what ever and get it over with .
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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:17
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"Democracy is primarily about Capitalism and Self gains "
Umm sorry but that is bullshit. All democracy is is "the free and equal right of every person to participate in a system of government", which definately can exist in a communist society just as capitalism definately can exist without democracy.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:24
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Someone mentioned everyone having equal oportunity in a capitalist society - as a Socialist I don't think that is the case. A capitalistic society relies on everyones right to use their assets freely in the manner they wish and well, having money will definately make it easier for someone to gain more money and in many cases a man from a poorer background can work equally hard or harder than someone with more money in the first place and still gain less - equal opportunity? I think not...

/ Andreas Mattsson
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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:27
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I am not a communist but as a socialist I believe that high taxes, free healthcare, free education and substancial poverty/inequality fighting programs is a method of enhancing everyones chances of having equal opportunity.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:28
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Very well put Raven. Each government does have it's own advantages and disadvantages. However, some are just terrible in the way the leaders carry them out.

Stalin's totalitarian/utilitarian government had it's advantages. It took the USSR from a broken down, overpopulated, technologically backwards country to a fully industrialized modern state. Nonetheless, we cannot dismiss that he caused the destruction of so many of his own people.

Hitler's and Mussolini's fascist governments allowed for the newspapers to become a means to stay current on the events of the world. They produced mass transits and enabled a once devastated nation to maintain a military of formidable size. But those who refuted the militaries might or right were punished with their lives.

I, however, am still pondering over the advantages of Mao's communism in china. Yes it did increase industrialization but then became somewhat fascist. The two (in my opinion) did not coincide very well.

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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:31
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"high taxes, free healthcare, free education and substancial poverty/inequality fighting programs is a method of enhancing everyones chances of having equal opportunity."

Very good point. I don't intend to refute this statement.

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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:38
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Democracy is not that equal. Sure people say "you can accomplish anything in life if you put your mind to it". That is BS.
If it were so, why did the more qualified people not become president of the US. Instead we have Bush.

Maybe democracy originally had it's potential to be great. But that was when it was first started and there were none of these huge monopolies. You didn't get a job, or into college, or presidency because of a name.

Nowadays, the name and your financial background. Now its "you accomplish anything in life if you have the name or money".

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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:40
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"I just don't think time should be wasted like this..Its pointless."

And that's why you're posting here?

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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:42
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No no no large_nostril, you are confusing democracy with capitalism again. Replace "democracy" with "capitalism" in your last post and you got it all right.

Capitalism, socialism and communism are terms that are related but none of them truly exclude neither democracy nor dictatorship/totalitarianism.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:44
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Continuing with what I said in the last post: And that Bush got elected the way he did is more a proof of lack of democracy than the opposite.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:47
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I am dumbfounded. Why should "democracy" be replaced with "capitalism". Pardon my ignorance, I just don't get it.

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A_M
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:49
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"Nowadays, the name and your financial background. Now its "you accomplish anything in life if you have the name or money"."
This has to do with everyones right to use their financial power in any manner they like (capitalism). It doesn't have much to do with the free and equal right of every person to participate in a system of government (democracy).

/ Andreas Mattsson
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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:59
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Now I see what you mean. Thanks for correcting me and clearing that up.

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A_M
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 00:08
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Just another attempt at clarifying in case there are others who don't quite see the differences: Capitalism, socialism and communism are terms describing the nature of the society and of largely economic meaning (distribution of finances but also ownership of means of productions) whereas terms such as democracy, totalitarianism, dictatorship and anarchy mostly refer to the manner of which these societies are governed.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 01:24
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Ok, greed by nature. Well Communist, agree for the most part on your human nature idea, but the will to live is the strongest mental defence all things have. Inside that will covers every other facet food, water, shelter and sex. It has been a long time since we as humans have had to try to survive, the world we've made is one of complacency. These bace instinks are then turned onto other aspects. That's were greed and Jeolousy comes in. By gaining self awearness we become self consious. Thoughts of "I'm not good enough" or "Others are better than me" come into play. To counter these thoughts one then tryes to gain something over another everyone, to make themselfs more desirable. Thus the birth of greed. Greed does come by nature alone, we have brought it in to existance.

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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 01:53
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Sorry, didn't see the second page. Personnally I think if capitalizm can be fused with communisim we'ld get a real good deal. As it was said in "A Beiutful Mind" What good for the idevidual and the group, is good for the group.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:05
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Raven:
"where as a Democracy is primarily about Capitalism and Self gains "

no, Raven, democracy means that the people should have the power, in direct translation from greek it means demo=people cracy=ruling. capitalism is about a majority of the people are working to keep a minority of the people rich.

Raven:
"a Democratic Communism, would really be a contradiction in terms - the point in a Democratical system is to give everyone equal opertunity to achieve the same goals as everyone else ... the point in a Communism system is to make sure everyone is treated identically."

what do you mean with everyone should have an equal opportunity to achieve the same goals as everybody else? the point with a democratic system is that the people are the ones with the power to change.

"the point" with communism is to apply democracy to both politics and economy, and to make sure that everybody has an equal chance of doing what they want to do with their life. "the point" with communism is to free mankind from all oppression.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:20
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ehm Arrow, communism and capitalism are opposites, it will be hard to "fuse" them in any way. capitalism always leads to poverty for some people and massive wealth for some.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:30
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Arrow:
"Thoughts of "I'm not good enough" or "Others are better than me" come into play."

these thoughts come into play when there is big economical differences between people. one of the basics of capitalism is that these thouhgts are good, since it will make you work harder and produce more, which develops the economy. hence, greed is a product of capitalism.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:31
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when there ARE big economical differences. i want an editbutton!

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:49
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BTW, here is a nice little quote:

"Why we divided the world into left and right was because we found through our experience that there are basically two kinds of people: There are those people who care, about their families, about their jobs, about their communities, about the environment and about the planet. And then there's the other lot who don't give a shit about anything except their own, selfish greed."
Billy Bragg

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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:51
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These thoughts exist everywhere, not just capitalist countries, in fact in a soicity where everthing is equil will cuase it to happend more, be focusing on things that can't be controled like appearance or intellegence.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 02:57
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yes, sure, but appearance and intelligence doesn't have anything to do with ecomical equality. it is not possible to buy yourself smart. (maybe to buy yourself goodlooking though)

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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 03:13
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True, that's my point. To compenate, these people will do anything to gain power over others. That when it goes down the tubes. While there still is humans, there will always be suffering.

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 03:20
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can't resist to write some more of my favourite quotes:


-------


You've heard of the "Golden Rule" haven't you? The one who has the gold, makes the rules.
From Disney's "Aladdin"

You know what capitalism is? Gettin' fucked!
Tony Montana in the movie Scarface

The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. In so far as the labor contract is free what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.
Albert Einstein

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large_nostril
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 03:31
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Ok, say a communism is created. Who gets to decide how resources are allocated. Now there is a baby boom and the population rizes. will everything be reallocated to compensate. The citizens will most likely refuse to give up there few "possessions". Say there is an economic crisis, does the government, recall half of the resources in order to compensate.

(Note: when I speek of resources and refer to natural and man made.)

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The Communist
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Ok, say a communism is created. Who gets to decide how resources are allocated. Now there is a baby boom and the population rizes. will everything be reallocated to compensate. The citizens will most likely refuse to give up there few "possessions". Say there is an economic crisis, does the government, recall half of the resources in order to compensate.

these questions are really easy to answear. just deal with them like we do today. when the population rises, then just increase the production etc. the difference is that the economy should be controlled by the people. democracy should apply to all areas of society.

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Shadow Robert
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the way i see it... Communism is a contradiction to a Democratic - it is in the very nature, because the Community doesn't decide but and elected cabinate ... which admitidly is by the people, yet they don't control what is going on.

It doesn't give equal opertunities because it actually makes sure that everyone is opressed to make sure that no one is treated special.

You can't create a balanced society without taking away from other aspects ... however a Democracy doesn't work like that, it gives everyone the pure opertunity - however doesn't make sure that everyone is treated equally.
the people are given the say over how everything is progressed, and as such you can change how everything works - but that said, you only have the opertunity to change it ... you can't actually change anything.

As i said Democratics is about the "Opertunity" ... Communism is about the "Equality"

this is why democratics goes so well with captialism, because it give everyone the opertunity for unmentionable wealth - you can't give everyone this opertunity whilst also making sure they're equal, it just doesn't work.

its a nice dream, but doesn't work

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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large_nostril
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 06:59
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"its a nice dream, but doesn't work"

Sums it up very nicely doesn't he.

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Jadelion
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To :astranominoff
`-----------------------------------------------------------`---------------------
`"I feel that too much of our attention in life is directed `towards topics like this. Life is ment to be more enjoyed "
In a philisophical sence that is precisly what topics like this are, Aristotal taught that mans can only truly enjoy life while contemplating the good, and the discussion of wrongs is part of contemplating the good. Only by understanding what we do, and why can we further shape ourselves.

Racism is part of being human, we can't see each other right now so I can't judge any of you, but we all judge people on sight, you can deny it if you want but when you first see someone you judge them, for how they look and how they dress and by all the other people of their race you have ever met. In that sense we are very much like the programs we creat, Race is a Type and each race fits neatly within that type, each person is a littel different, but since we know their type we know the variabels we applied to them when we first made the Type.
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Jadelion
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 09:28
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wow, I was completly un-aware of the second page, ok i guess i'll get a littel more on topic.

I would have to agree with Raven in that Communism and Democracy are contradictory schools of thought. The best proff of this is in that Carl Mark's (communist sociolgist who essentlialy created the school of modern communist thought) wrote that the common people would rise up to form a society where all are equall, but for all to be equall society has to be organized and Mark's original organization method was what I think he called a Benevolent Dictator (probably not the smae word) because the more people trying to equalize things, the further it would get from equall and any two people sharing a power to cotrol the flow of society would divide into faction and society would breakdown.

Communisim isn't on the whole un-workable, it just needs to be implemented in a fashion that would allow it to succeed. I mean Cuba's a fine little country, and it seems to be doing just fine, mabey a littel better if we would remove the embargoes but thats my opinion.
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A_M
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 10:33
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Sigh, you just don't get it do you?
Democracy is about the free and equal representation of people in terms of ability to participate in a system of government.
Democracy is not about economic opportunity.

Capitalism claims to be a system of equal opportunity but it isn't as people who from the beginning are rich have more opportunities for further wealth than poor people. Do you deny that it takes far more work for a person with no money to achieve the same as a rich person? Does not sound like equal opportunity to me!

Democracy does in no way favor capitalism over socialism - democracy is simply the peoples way to choose.

I'm not a communist and not entirely familiar with the Communist manifest so I will not go into the discussion of whether or not communism is strictly about economic equality or not. But I can repeat what I earlier on said that high taxes, free healthcare, free education and substancial poverty/inequality fighting programs is a method of enhancing everyones chances of having equal opportunity whereas capitalism by nature enables anyone to fully utilize whatever advantages (usually economical) they have, which isn't equal opportunity!

/ Andreas Mattsson
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A_M
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 10:42
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Jadelion: I do not agree with you about race. I think on the whole the term race is regrettable. We do not differ enough genetically for the use of the term race to be justified. Almost all differences between races (except some superficial ones like skin-tone) are due to social differences, social difference that usually exist because of racism in the first place.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Teh Missingz0rs
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"To err is human. Art is knowing which ones to keep."
"History doesn't repeat itself... people always do."

[href]http://www.machina regime.cjb.net[/href]
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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 18:06
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Alas, we live in an era that we have no control, oh well. At least I got my dreams. I take a pasifast and nuetral approch to things. If I can help it, I don't worry about it. Untill I see something worth doing right, I'll just sit back and watch the world crumble.

"I may seem to go off into my own little world, but that's ok, they know me thier."

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The Communist
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Jadelion:
"but for all to be equall society has to be organized and Mark's original organization method was what I think he called a Benevolent Dictator"

what? have you ever read enything by Marx ( Karl Marx not Carl Mark) ? if you have any source then i would love to read it, since this statement is just stupid. how come then that one of the fundamentals of all socialist ideologies is that all areas of society should be democratically controlled? what you might be talking about is the so called "democratic dictature of the proletary class", which means that the working class (proletary) is the ruling class, rather than the capitalist class (like in a capitalist society). this was Lenin's idea though.

" (probably not the smae word) because the more people trying to equalize things, the further it would get from equall and any two people sharing a power to cotrol the flow of society would divide into faction and society would breakdown."

i don't really understand this. the more people trying to equalize, the lesser equal it would get? could you explain this a little better please

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The Communist
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 20:30
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Raven, i think your latest post really proves that you have no idea whatsoever, what democracy is

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large_nostril
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"Democracy is about the free and equal representation of people in terms of ability to participate in a system of government.
Democracy is not about economic opportunity."

True that may be. But through economic prosperity individuals gain power and influence over others.

In the last presidential election in America, half of the votes went to Bush. That is insane. What propositions did Bush set forth other than his name and his ability to funle massive quantites of donations into a campaign. The only quality proposition that Bush made was his tax cut policy (back to greed, people were bought over by this, anything to get a little more money). In the long run, the American population (as a majority) is suffering from Bush's tax cut policy and flagrant spending. How does a country go from a well sized surplus into deficit and recession?

Without money and/or a name, Bush would not have become president (he's just too dumb). Bush doesn't have to go to the American population and ask of there permission to go decimate Iraq in a war. In my opinion, there should by nation wide vote on the matter and prior to the vote Bush and the CIA should release their evidence to prove that Saddam has these weapons of mass destruction. (That would be a democracy). As it is, America is a monarchy with a leader selected by the population. That is not a democracy, where the people only make one decision every 4 years.

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The Communist
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large_nostril:
True that may be. But through economic prosperity individuals gain power and influence over others.

yes. that is not good, is it? that people with more wealth and more luxury than others have more influence?

in a real democracy, everybody has the same influence, instead of "one vote per dollar"

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The Communist
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large_nostril:
Bush doesn't have to go to the American population and ask of there permission to go decimate Iraq in a war. In my opinion, there should by nation wide vote on the matter and prior to the vote Bush and the CIA should release their evidence to prove that Saddam has these weapons of mass destruction.

i think the iraqi people should vote if they want US/UN to bomb them. BTW, it doesn't matter if Saddam's got any weapons of mass destruction (gosh am i tired of those words?), since it was the US, germany and france who gave them to him. it's kinda funny: "here, we give you this weapon". ten years later "you still got it? I'M GONNA KILL YOU, YOU BASTARD!"

Saddam is terrible, no doubt about that. the question is, does the iraqi people need bombs falling on them?

my solution would be to remove the sanctions against Iraq (which by the only US and Israel want, all other UN countries want to remove them), so that the opposition and the people can throw Saddam to the junkyard themselves

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large_nostril
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"since it was the US, germany and france who gave them to him"
Finally, someone that can remember the Iran-Iraq war properly.

"Saddam is terrible, no doubt about that. the question is, does the iraqi people need bombs falling on them?"
I'd say not.

What is even worse is the fact that North Korea now has claimed (and the US says they have proof) that they own their own nuclear weapon(s). Yet Bush says, "maybe we should cut off oil supplies to them". Think Bush, is that really gonna help? Even more, Korea is in such a terrible economic state that they are the onse most likely to sell these weapons to "terrorists" while Iraq is going to keep them to protect themselves.

As I said before, money does buy power. The thing that I'm most disgusted about is the cigarette company. In America, the FDA (Food and Drug Administrative) is considering banning the sale of epedrine. Ephedrine is a drug that is supposed to induce weight loss but has been linked to 80 deaths. Cigarettes, however, are 500 times more deadly, more addicting, make more sales, yet there is no intention to stop tobacco sales. And why, because the tobacco companies are able to pay their way into anything. As I understand it, the UK plans to ban all tobacco advertisement (from magazines, sporting events, etc.) I congratulate them if they do so.

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A_M
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 18:17
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large_nostril: In Sweden, if a member of pairlament recieved vast ammounts of money from the cigarette industry (or military industry, or gambling industry etc) and let it effect his/her politics I believe it would cause quite a scandal. In the US, virtually everyone does it. Also, in Sweden (and most democracies) voters have better opportunity to do something, we could just vote for a different party if it turns out stuff like this was going on (and everyone individual persons decision to do so would make a difference thanks to having a proportional pairlament system). In the US (with it's "winner-takes-it-all"-like system) you wouldn't do that, because there are only 2 parties that have any chance whatsoever of gaining real political power, and people will be more likely to vote for the lesser of two evils or not at all (I think US has about a 40% voter turnout? I believe that is the lowest/one of the lowest rate of all democratic countries).

So one should be careful with looking at America when spotting so called problems with democracy since the US is just "barely" a democracy (/me has a feeling he could get flamed for saying this).

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 19:20
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@Large Nostril

The easiest way to do well in school is to become an A student or better even than that - A* . A* requires some work, but generally achieving straight As shouldn't be too hard.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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The Communist
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 19:45
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large_nostril:
What is even worse is the fact that North Korea now has claimed (and the US says they have proof) that they own
their own nuclear weapon(s).

it's been well known for a long time that North Korea has nukes. but what about all other countries that has nukes? Saudi-Arabia, Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, India etc etc etc?

Workers of all lands, Unite!
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A_M
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 20:06
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Huh, do North Korea really have nuclear warheads now? Haven't they just admitted to having a nuclear program?

I believe the only ones who are definately known to have nukes are: US, UK, France, Russia, China, Pakistan and India.

Israel refuses to confirm nor deny the widespread beliefs that they have nukes but have admitted that they at a time were developing a "nuclear option".

The others you have listed I think only are loosely suspected of having nukes, or do you have a source on that?

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Jadelion
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 20:37
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No A_M North Korea has had nukes for quite a while, they just admited to re-starting the nuclear development programs which America wanted shut down. Pakistan and India have nukes (if you count a kiloton) but they don't have ICBM's so they can really only shoot each-other.
Saudi-Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and Egypt aren't proven to have nuclear capabilities yet, no reactors no refineries and no bombs.
Korea essentialy got it's whole nuke program from China after then Korean war , as a method to defend itself in caase of American nuclear attacks.
Nukes are too easy to track, so I wouldn't be too worried about a terrorist buying one from Korea and actually deploying it. (be more worried about chem and bio weapons)

...that move was indeed...Bold.
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large_nostril
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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 05:24
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"In Sweden, if a member of pairlament recieved vast ammounts of money from the cigarette industry (or military industry, or gambling industry etc) and let it effect his/her politics I believe it would cause quite a scandal. In the US, virtually everyone does it."

I don't think that US politicians are that corrupt. I don't think the politicians are being bribed, just that no politician can cross the cigarette industry. If they tried to run a campaign in which they laid out the policy to abolish all tabacco sales, the tabacco industry would feed money to the opponent's campaign like it cost them nothing. I just don't find it possible to stand up against such an influential power ( a monopoly quite possibly).

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 06:12
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i think you've all missed the most important point here about the fact of the governmental systems... you can't soley base what you know on thier "technical" workings, because we're applying these systems to people.

In the truest sense, not a Democracy has nothing to do with economical structures ... (although if you read my last post you'd see i never said that) ... the point of it is to make sure everyone has an EQUAL say over what happens, and give them the OPERTUNITY to rise above everyone through mandates of the people.

Basically the rules and laws and governance set by the people, however not controlled by the people.

A Communism is specifically to make sure no one can get an ultimate power ... everyone has an equal share of everything no matter who they are, what they do, how much they do. It's the only true FAIR system.

however that is only TECHNICALLY... in reality this doesn't happen because of human nature.

We must excel at everything we do at the minimum of costs to prove that we are the best, this isn't do to any petty rivalry thing - but is to do with the fact that women and men both go after the best possible mates in the interests of having the strongest offspring ... making sure that they survive.

Being the most powerful is just to emphisise the fact that they are the best and therefor the strongest and most eligable.

This is why Democracy works in the way it does - because it doesn't cap anyone to limited power making them want to excel more in other areas ... it leaves everything wide open to become the best there is and opress the rest.
Those people are voted in by everyone by the people, for the people - yet they're still given ultimate power to do as and how they choose changing the democratic system for thier own personal gains.

This is why it walks hand in hand with capitalism!
Now is Democracy was about the people governing the people for the better needs of the people rather than the individual who can make the people like them ... then you would have a better governance.

Personally i think a Council Democracy is a better solution to Republic/Liberal Democracy which is what is the most used around the world...

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 06:16
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If you think about it there are actually few countries that front Governments now which are true ...

Look at it, really only the Dictatorships are real governments in place - everything else is a mess, because of the captilist attitudes

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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