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Arrow

21

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Joined: 1st Jan 2003

Location: United States

Posted: 25th Feb 2003 06:48

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Ok, enough is enough. I'm up to here with this terrorims 0alk. There are no more terrorists attacks waiting to happen! It just an BS story, made up be the goverment so that they can do what they want. Do you really thing we would care this much abiut Sadam is 9/11 never happend? It's all a front.

The problem in the US goverenment is lobbiests and the 2 party system. Lobbiests are brobing our so called repersentatives to get thier way. Thats why tobbaco is legal and pot isn't. With a 2 party system there is no chance of reform. Untill America has a coup, then nothing will change.

If this thread comtenues to talk about Politics then I must withdraw from it. Talking about it only ends up bugging me, and make me deppressed.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.

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Jadelion

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 06:57

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again I agree with Raven, cause in a capitalist system any one can be bought, thus any government is subject to control by those with money (i.e. the tobbaco exampel above)

Poloticians are bought here, they are bribed, and big industry always wins (I mean really they've taken Microsoft to court like a dozen times now but we are all still using windows)

and therein lies the problem with a communist democracy, cause you see if there is any faction at all (any reason to vote the other way) then the people would be divided, and even if the majority wins, the faction that wanted the other side to win would rally together allying aginst a common foe and then you have a minority and your communist society where everyone was equall isn't quite equall anymore.

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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large_nostril

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Joined: 5th Feb 2003

Location: United States

Posted: 25th Feb 2003 07:52

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"Politician are bought here, they are bribed, and big industry always wins "

I don't agree with this statement. It is not that the politician is "bribed" per say, merely that he/she is 'encouraged' not to propose anything that could be detrimental to these such industries. That is, the industries will load the opposing politician's pockets with money so they can 'slaughter' the politician that is standing in the way of this industry. The politician would not risk his/her political career for something known to unattainable.

Bush however is a different story. The US was the leading country in the efforts to get nations to join in the Kyoto Treaties (reduction of pollution emitted per year). Yet during the campaign in 2000, the oil companies funneled money to Bush. Bush got elected and, later, at the Kyoto treaties signing, Bush omitted the US from it. In fact pollution emissions have risen 15% just over the last year in the US while it has decreased as much as 35% in other places.

(NOTE: I hate Bush)

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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Shadow Robert

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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002

Location: Hertfordshire, England

Posted: 25th Feb 2003 08:44

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nostril thats what a bribe is i'm afriad ...
it's using money to "influence" someone else opinion about something.

Bush didn't even get the most votes within the election from what has been accounted for, so i'm quite confused to how someone who doesn't actually win an election is declared the winner

the States is the biggest shame democracy now - simply cause Democracy is a fantastic breeding ground for the corrupt and elitist.

i'm sorry but this whole business with Sept 11 2001 ... really to me this sounds like the biggest money syndicate setup - i mean look at it, they have Circumstantial evidence against Saddam that he is linked to the Al'Quida, and that he has weapons of mass destruction.

To be honest i don't give a crap if he does, its not like he'll bloody use them is it? I mean honestly, how insane would this guy have to be to take on US, UK, EU and the other Commonwealth Countries??
If hilter couldn't do it with a bloody great army and some of the most advanced technology in the world - what possible damage do you believe that Saddam would pose?

This is all about the oil, look at it ... they knew the attack would happen, they knew that Afghanistan would be very easy to overrun ... and they knew about the Opum Poppy industry within Afghanistan (which anyone notice has actually increase rather than decreased production from reports?)

Whats the next country i the Arab Empire which has always been just out of the reach of the states?
Iraq ... and by making up some manipulative information about him they have the perfect reason to declare a war and take the oil refinaries by force.

If you've seen the troop deployment and the mandate that the States has, civil casualties appear to be the last of thier worries... yet they're doing this because Saddam is dangerous and oppressing the people.

(if this was true they would have never have backed out 10years ago!)

you notice how they backed out back in the Gulf after the Oil Derics were burnt to the ground causing months of dangerous rebuilding...

thats all this bloody "revenge" war is all about to these governments ... MONEY! and everyone damn'd well knows it

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?

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A_M

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Location: Sweden

Posted: 25th Feb 2003 09:51

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large_nostril: Why exactly isn't that bribery? They get money if they do what the cigarette industry wants, they don't give money if they don't... In Sweden there isn't much corporate money used for campaigns, I believe parties also get tax money for their campaigns.
Another dreadful example of when corporations have influenced politics too much is when the US (I don't know if any other countries did this) blocked a WTO decision to let poor countries use cheap copies of patented medication (to fight aids, malaria etc).

And about the war, nobody thinks Saddam's regime is good and everyone agrees it causes much suffering. Just that most anti-war people (including me) think that a war would be even worse and result in more suffering (not to mention the horror all the extra terrorism would cause). I don't get it, how exactly is Saddam a threat to us? Everyone seems to think of him as an Usama but with lots of terrible weapons, but he does not pose that kind of threat: Usama's people were fanatic and had nothing to lose, Saddam has everything to lose and wouldn't risk a WMD attack (he's addicted to power and would lose all that if he did so, he's also not stupid).

/ Andreas Mattsson

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Jadelion

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 09:53

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I got board and decided a small text based game might better illistrate the point I was trying to make about a Communist Democracy. Since we are all programmers we might as well program, any way here it is

center text 320,200,"You live in a perfect communist democracy"
pressanykey

center text 320,200,"Today the country will vote"
pressanykey

center text 320,200,"The majority party wants to evacuate the people"
	center text 320,220,"who live in Building 001 and re-locate them"
	center text 320,240,"to Building 002 because Building 001 is"
	center text 320,260,"too old and not efficient enough in power consumption"
pressanykey

center text 320,200,"You live in Building 001, and are quite happy"
	center text 320,220,"You have a perfectly average wife, and a perfectly "
	center text 320,240,"average family family (2.5 kids)" 
pressanykey

center text 320,200,"How will you vote, with the majority and loose you Home."
	center text 320,220,"or with the minority, and loose your Home"
	center text 320,240,"or abstain, knowing that tommorow you will loose your Home"
wait 2000
buttons01
	sprite 1,0,0,1
	sprite 2,300,0,2
	sprite 3,200,200,3
option = 0
cls
center text 320,190,"Click a vote, and then press a key"
repeat
	if mousex()>0 and mousex()<100 and mousey()>0 and mousey()<100 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 1
	if mousex()>300 and mousex()<400 and mousey()>0 and mousey()<100 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 2
	if mousex()>200 and mousex()<300 and mousey()>200 and mousey()<300 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 3
until option>0
delete sprite 1
delete sprite 2
delete sprite 3

if option = 1 then gosub majority
if option = 2 then gosub minority
if option = 3 then gosub abstain

majority:
INK RGB(0,0,0),RGB(255,255,255)
	pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You vote for the Majority"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You did your duty for your county"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go home, and pack for re-location"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"end"
pressanykey
	end
return

minority:
INK RGB(255,255,255),RGB(0,0,0)
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You vote for the minority"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go home, praying you can keep you home"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"When you wake up, people are already leaving"
	center text 320,220,"A construction crew is outside ready to tear"
	center text 320,240,"down your home, your wife and kids are already gone"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You are angry, mad that you lost"
	center text 320,220,"Why even bother casting your vote knowing you wouldn't win"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"as you pack your things you come across your old gun"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You realize that the minority can never win"
	center text 320,220,"And that even in this great equality some people will loose"
	center text 320,240,"and your anger leads to HATE"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"A man knocks on your door and asks if you are ready to leave?"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You fire a round through the door in response."
	center text 320,220,"They will take your home, but they can't take you"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go over to the window and fire at the construction crew"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"In moments police are arriving, and suddenly you know you won't make it"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Rather then let the police come and arrest you,"
	center text 320,220,"You turn your gun on yourslf,saying goodbye to your family"
	center text 320,240,"with your last breath"	
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"END"
end
return

abstain:
INK RGB(255,255,255),RGB(0,0,0)
	pressanykey

center text 320,200,"Rather then waste your vote, your go home." 
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"As you approch Building 001, you see a crowed has gathered"
	center text 320,220,"People have gathered around front in protest"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You try to get past the crowd so you can get inside,"
	center text 320,220,"but end up stuck in the unrully mob."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Police saround the area, trying to disrupt the protest"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You find yourslef next to a policeman, but before you can explain"
	center text 320,220,"You are pushed aginst him, the policeman thumps you with a night-stick"
	center text 320,240,"and you drop to the ground."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You are stepped on and kicked and hit, and never quite abel to get up,"
	center text 320,220,"you feel yourslef loose conciousness,as another hit connects with the back of your head"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You awaken in a small room that stincs like garbage."
	center text 320,220,"A beautifull women is sitting next to the bed you are lying in"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Who are you?"
	center text 320,220,"still grogy from the beating, you can feel soars all over your body"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"I am Sylvia, we rescued you from the attack."
	center text 320,220,"the woman responded."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"who do you mean "we""
	center text 320,220,"you say still confused."
	center text 320,240,""and why does it stink?""
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"I apoloqize for the smell but the sewers are the only place we are safe."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"As who we are, we are the "the resistance", we fight the majority."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"couldn't you do that by just voting aginst them, you reply"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"And what would that accomplish,"she laughed "they are the majority, they always win."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You talk with Sylvia for awhile, and then return to sleep."
	center text 320,220,"when you wake up, she asks if you will stay and fight with the resistance?"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You think back to whay happend and why, and you realize she is right,"
	center text 320,220,"the minority can never win in this system, and all you have ever had"
	center text 320,240,"isn't even there anymore, (after the riot, the building came down)"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You look at her and smile "What have I got to loose" you say."
	center text 320,220,"and so begins your new life, as a member of the resistance."
	center text 320,240,"No longer equall to all those around you, but somehow, even with nothing,"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"you are better then all of those who are the same."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"END"
pressanykey
end
return
function pressanykey()
center text 320,400,"Press anykey to continue"
suspend for key
cls
endfunction

function buttons01
	create bitmap 2,100,100
	set current bitmap 2	
	INK RGB(255,0,0),RGB(0,0,0)	
	box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		INK RGB(0,255,0),RGB(0,0,0)	
		PRINT "Majority"
get image 1,0,0,100,100
	cls
		box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		INK RGB(255,0,0),RGB(0,0,0)
		PRINT "Minority"
get image 2,0,0,100,100
	cls
		box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		PRINT "Abstain"
		get image 3,0,0,100,100
	delete bitmap 2
endfunction

+ Code Snippet

	center text 320,200,"You live in a perfect communist democracy"
pressanykey

	center text 320,200,"Today the country will vote"
pressanykey

	center text 320,200,"The majority party wants to evacuate the people"
	center text 320,220,"who live in Building 001 and re-locate them"
	center text 320,240,"to Building 002 because Building 001 is"
	center text 320,260,"too old and not efficient enough in power consumption"
pressanykey

	center text 320,200,"You live in Building 001, and are quite happy"
	center text 320,220,"You have a perfectly average wife, and a perfectly "
	center text 320,240,"average family family (2.5 kids)" 
pressanykey

	center text 320,200,"How will you vote, with the majority and loose you Home."
	center text 320,220,"or with the minority, and loose your Home"
	center text 320,240,"or abstain, knowing that tommorow you will loose your Home"
wait 2000
buttons01
	sprite 1,0,0,1
	sprite 2,300,0,2
	sprite 3,200,200,3
option = 0
cls
center text 320,190,"Click a vote, and then press a key"
repeat
	if mousex()>0 and mousex()<100 and mousey()>0 and mousey()<100 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 1
	if mousex()>300 and mousex()<400 and mousey()>0 and mousey()<100 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 2
	if mousex()>200 and mousex()<300 and mousey()>200 and mousey()<300 and mouseclick() = 1 then option = 3
until option>0
delete sprite 1
delete sprite 2
delete sprite 3

if option = 1 then gosub majority
if option = 2 then gosub minority
if option = 3 then gosub abstain

majority:
INK RGB(0,0,0),RGB(255,255,255)
	pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You vote for the Majority"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You did your duty for your county"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go home, and pack for re-location"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"end"
pressanykey
	end
return


minority:
INK RGB(255,255,255),RGB(0,0,0)
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You vote for the minority"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go home, praying you can keep you home"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"When you wake up, people are already leaving"
	center text 320,220,"A construction crew is outside ready to tear"
	center text 320,240,"down your home, your wife and kids are already gone"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You are angry, mad that you lost"
	center text 320,220,"Why even bother casting your vote knowing you wouldn't win"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"as you pack your things you come across your old gun"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You realize that the minority can never win"
	center text 320,220,"And that even in this great equality some people will loose"
	center text 320,240,"and your anger leads to HATE"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"A man knocks on your door and asks if you are ready to leave?"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You fire a round through the door in response."
	center text 320,220,"They will take your home, but they can't take you"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You go over to the window and fire at the construction crew"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"In moments police are arriving, and suddenly you know you won't make it"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Rather then let the police come and arrest you,"
	center text 320,220,"You turn your gun on yourslf,saying goodbye to your family"
	center text 320,240,"with your last breath"	
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"END"
end
return


abstain:
INK RGB(255,255,255),RGB(0,0,0)
	pressanykey

	center text 320,200,"Rather then waste your vote, your go home." 
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"As you approch Building 001, you see a crowed has gathered"
	center text 320,220,"People have gathered around front in protest"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You try to get past the crowd so you can get inside,"
	center text 320,220,"but end up stuck in the unrully mob."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Police saround the area, trying to disrupt the protest"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You find yourslef next to a policeman, but before you can explain"
	center text 320,220,"You are pushed aginst him, the policeman thumps you with a night-stick"
	center text 320,240,"and you drop to the ground."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You are stepped on and kicked and hit, and never quite abel to get up,"
	center text 320,220,"you feel yourslef loose conciousness,as another hit connects with the back of your head"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You awaken in a small room that stincs like garbage."
	center text 320,220,"A beautifull women is sitting next to the bed you are lying in"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"Who are you?"
	center text 320,220,"still grogy from the beating, you can feel soars all over your body"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"I am Sylvia, we rescued you from the attack."
	center text 320,220,"the woman responded."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"who do you mean "we""
	center text 320,220,"you say still confused."
	center text 320,240,""and why does it stink?""
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"I apoloqize for the smell but the sewers are the only place we are safe."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"As who we are, we are the "the resistance", we fight the majority."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"couldn't you do that by just voting aginst them, you reply"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"And what would that accomplish,"she laughed "they are the majority, they always win."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You talk with Sylvia for awhile, and then return to sleep."
	center text 320,220,"when you wake up, she asks if you will stay and fight with the resistance?"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You think back to whay happend and why, and you realize she is right,"
	center text 320,220,"the minority can never win in this system, and all you have ever had"
	center text 320,240,"isn't even there anymore, (after the riot, the building came down)"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"You look at her and smile "What have I got to loose" you say."
	center text 320,220,"and so begins your new life, as a member of the resistance."
	center text 320,240,"No longer equall to all those around you, but somehow, even with nothing,"
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"you are better then all of those who are the same."
pressanykey
	center text 320,200,"END"
pressanykey
end
return
function pressanykey()
center text 320,400,"Press anykey to continue"
suspend for key
cls
endfunction

function buttons01
	create bitmap 2,100,100
	set current bitmap 2	
	INK RGB(255,0,0),RGB(0,0,0)	
	box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		INK RGB(0,255,0),RGB(0,0,0)	
		PRINT "Majority"
get image 1,0,0,100,100
	cls
		box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		INK RGB(255,0,0),RGB(0,0,0)
		PRINT "Minority"
get image 2,0,0,100,100
	cls
		box 0,0,100,100
		set cursor 0,20
		PRINT "Abstain"
		get image 3,0,0,100,100
	delete bitmap 2
endfunction

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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A_M

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Joined: 27th Aug 2002

Location: Sweden

Posted: 25th Feb 2003 09:58

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Also, I don't agree that it is inevitable that corporations have too much influence on politics in a democracy. Because if a democracy works properly the people have a choice and could vote for other parties/politicians (this does not work in the US because of the way their system works, which I think is barely democratic at all). As I said earlier: Just because it is a problem in the US doesn't mean it's a problem with democracy (in fact the problem exists because of a lack of a more democratic system).

/ Andreas Mattsson

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A_M

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 10:11

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LOL seriously Jadelion, that isn't really a good example (rather a stupid one) because if a party repeatedly acted against peoples will it wouldn't be the majority party anymore. It could perhaps be a relavant example if everyone voted merely for what benefited them most but that is not the case, in for example Sweden (and hopefully most countries) the majority would turn against a party that behaved badly against and discriminated a minority. Also what in your example makes it apply to communist cemocracy? To me it seems like it would apply to democracy over all (what part about it is communist?) and in which case are you against democracy overall? What are you suggesting, always screw the majority and do what you want (anarchy)?

/ Andreas Mattsson

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A_M

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 10:14

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( /me wants a working edit function! Scratch the part of it being a stupid example, I don't want to claim that before you have gotten a chance to explain it better )

/ Andreas Mattsson

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actarus

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 14:52

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Very interseting thread...

AM:

-I am not a communist but as a socialist I believe that high taxes, free healthcare, free education and substancial poverty/inequality fighting programs is a method of enhancing everyones chances of having equal opportunity.

Wow man,Québec province is your paradise then.

Except for free education,all the above is true here.

Come live with us

j/k

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!

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A_M

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:04

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LOL actarus, if I lived in the US maybe, but since I live in Sweden I think I'll stick to where I am; all of the above and the education isn't just free, I also get paid (approx. 100$ monthly for being a studend).

/ Andreas Mattsson

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actarus

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:10

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hey,students are paid around 600$/month...For being students.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!

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A_M

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:17

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actarus: yeah but you don't also have free tuition, or do you?

/ Andreas Mattsson

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actarus

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:23

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Free tuition?

You mean education?

Actually,if comparing Sweden and Québec province,you find out that we get our inspiration of your country's system and Switzerland's...Both good examples.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!

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A_M

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:44

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It's nice to see that people in Québec at least know that Switzerland and Sweden are two different countries (unlike many Americans I've met)

.

/ Andreas Mattsson

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actarus

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 15:51

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That's because we are different of the rest of Canada so we understand...

Still,in this quality,we're more like Great-Britain and/or Spain who have their own different nationalies such as Scotland and Catalonia(sp??)...Only difference is THEY get recognized.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!

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Arrow

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 17:27

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Jadelion, acording to your logic there is no point to being a DEM be cause REP is the majority. Hell we shouldn't even care because it's not a voting year.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.

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Jadelion

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Posted: 25th Feb 2003 21:37

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umm, yea that is kinda the logic we live under. Remeber Gore won the poular vote by 500,000 votes in America, but Bush is still president, cause your vote don't matter. And yea I guess the littel game really didn't have a Communist feel to it, I apologize but a proper analysis of what a communist democracy might be like would probably take more time and effort then I am will to put into a text adventure. I still think it was funny...but I guess I'm in the minority so that dosen't matter (The best way for a minority to get its point across is to bribe an official of the majority party, which wouldn't work in a communist democracy)

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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large_nostril

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 02:26

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"thats what a bribe is i'm afriad ..."

"They get money if they do what the cigarette industry wants, they don't give money if they don't... "

Not so, a bribe is to "dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one's favor by paying them or giving other inducement."

The politician is discouraged from "threatening" the tobacco company's profit. Nobody is payed anything if there is no potential threat to the company. However, if one politician decides to ban cigarettes, the tobacco industry decides to 'generously' donate millions of dollars to the opposing candidate. Thus, the candidate that received these large sums of money, wins the election, and the tobacco company doesn't need to worry about that other politician anymore.

“Because if a democracy works properly the people have a choice and could vote for other parties/politicians”
What about Microsoft (I think somebody else already brought this up)?

“Bush didn't even get the most votes within the election from what has been accounted for, so I'm quite confused to how someone who doesn't actually win an election is declared the winner”
Yep, it’s really dumb. Each person eligible to vote votes. Then they count up the votes from each state and decide who (which candidate) had the most votes in that state. The state is given a political point relative to it’s population. Thus, making it possible for up to 67% (in 1996) in favour of one candidate, but the other one still wins because he got more of the smaller states.

Jadelion, I thought your game was pretty funny

although I don’t feel it was really relative or accurate.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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Arrow

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 04:28

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Jadelion, I am not even aloud to vote. I'm Independant, and in many states you can only vote for your party and no one else. Plus I refuse to vote against someone else, untill they get someone up there worth voting for, will will not vote. That is how I make a differance.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.

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Jadelion

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 05:02

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You can't make a difference by not voteing (really how does that make any differece in who wins) what state do you live in that dosen't allow you to vote unless you are a member of the party (I live in Idaho the most Republican state in the Union and they still let me vote).But, I guess you can't make a difference by voteing either which is essentialy my point,(only in America I hear you Euopeans votes matter at least a littel)

as a side note so that no one will argue the point Idaho is considered the most Republican state because we only have one district that votes for the Democrats so no Democrate has ever even come close to winning our electoral votes.

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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large_nostril

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 06:56

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I live in California and I'm not allowed to vote at all (Im 16, hehe

). But seriously Arrow, how would they know who voted for whom? They aren't allowed to check the ballots for names/registration numbers. And if some prick tells you "oh, you can't vote for him since he's you don't consider yourself a member of that party.", you should gently extend your right arm. Then animate your middle finger in the erect position and simply say "Go crap yourself." But be advised that I've gotten then crap kicked out of me for that one.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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Arrow

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:12

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Oh, not voting does make a statemant. Last years election had one of the lowest voter turn out ever. What does that say? Think about it, if more and more people stop voting what happens? Can you imagine what it would be like if half of this country didn't vote. These so called goverment elect might start to take notice and start keeping in line. I think we should have a national "No Vote Day" just to show how little faith we have in this country's goverment. It wouldn't be a revolution, but it might help.

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Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.

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Shadow Robert

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:17

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Nostril you dont' see it do you? THAT IS A BRIBE!!

if one politian goes against cigerettes, so they goto the opposition party who DOESN'T want to ban the substance - and they pay LOTS of money to them to make sure they get into power.

Now they COULD change their mind, but people who do so against that industry tend to end up DEAD!

you're probably your someone who doesn't look at that as a bribe, more as an incentive not to change your mind on a policy ... but at the end of the day a spade is still a spade even if it is covered in gold no?

there is alot of truth in the fact that the Democracy within the states isn't much of one what so ever, because if you go against the people will too much they only have one other choice - its more a choice of which party is the lesser evil, but the problem is they both have the same bloody stances on everything ... and they're both puppeteered by thier cabinates (which if you've noticed the UK government recently you can see that can't be said about us)

If you notice our government is more of a bloody democracy than the US ... but we're not an actual democracy which is why we can get away with certain things and its still not against the very mandate of the governance system

(see there are smart reasons why the UK isn't a Democracy)

that aside, we're still stuck between really 2 parties because the third possible no one ever believes will get in, therefore actually making it so that whilst no one takes the chance and throws thier vote towards them they don't get in (bloody ironic really).
And the rest of the choices are just not quite big enough...

yet the major problem is that you need money to campaign to get noticed, which means the adverage man can't just take the chance of running and stand a chance (which would be the Democratic way) ... and the fact that it costs so much to be noticed means that the choices are only the richest parties, which to get rich requires a capitalist style of economy.

can't you see the terrible irony in that too?
To have a better economy not based upon captial gains, you need to make more to run which requires a capital gains economy.

See you notice how each of the countires run thier voting systems ... i mean look at the UK for example.
The party that gets the most votes wins, any votes not counted by the final date - ARE NOT COUNTED
the voting is so simple, and there is no way you can get confused with it ... if you form cannot be read, it is disqualified.

There is no need to explain that forms were used incorrectly, there is no well that looks like one person but it could be another - because they're not counted.

this isn't to say the system is flawless, but atleast you know - what the people want, is what is chosen in a vote ... and cannot be influenced by any of the local governments.
I kinda feel thats the worst part of the US's system, is that each of the governments for the states have thier own rules and such - rather than the US government actually doing it.

its just stupid isn't it?

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?

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Jadelion

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:17

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wouldn't all the people still registered with a party still vote for that party, so even if no one votes except the politicians they will still end up in power. Now if you surrounded all the voting stations and picketed and urged people not to vote, then you might get noticed (probably by the police) but staying home and not voting isn't helping anyone.
(I strongly urge active protest on election day, as long as you don't get beat to death and it's fun)

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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Arrow

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:46

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Ok then, lets spread the word of "No Voting Day". Anyone know how to start a protest? I could bring my copy of U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday".

All joking aside I think that if we can get a real low voter turn out, then that's one hell of a statment. What better way to show protest against the coruption in government by not alowing it to contenue. We don't have to have all the votes stop, but if we can get a fouth of the voting public to activly say "No, I refuse to vote for the lesser evil, to alow cruption and greed to live in my goverment", then our point is made. Plus it's a non-violent action, they can't do squat about it. If they can let some red-neck pastor openly say that Muhamid was a petaphile and is leading Satan's army, in church then they can let me say "I choose not to vote".

National No Vote Day, do it for your country.

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large_nostril

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:53

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"Last years election had one of the lowest voter turn out ever. What does that say? Think about it, if more and more people stop voting what happens? Can you imagine what it would be like if half of this country didn't vote."
Holy cow brains, we'd be ruled by a rock with mold. I mean if fewer people voted last election and we got Bush, we'd get a moldy rock if nobody voted.

"you're probably someone who doesn't look at that as a bribe, more as an incentive not to change your mind on a policy"
That is how I look at it

and I get where your coming from. But maybe the slight language barrier between British-English and American-English is the difference in our views. What you are saying makes perfect sense to me and I agree, I just don't associate the term "bribe" with it.

"its just stupid isn't it?"
I'd say it is.

And I agree that the British system is much better than the US system. The parliament doesn't account for every citizen’s decision but it is much better than having a single leader (a monarchy). I know the US has the three "branches" which are meant to keep each other in "check" (checks and balances) but I personally feel that the legislative and judicial (presidency is executive) branches would rather sit back and keep their mouths shut and their political career safe instead of risking a confrontation with the presidency.

I personally admire the two democratic (potential presidential) candidates who oppose Bush's war policy. They are the ones who don't fear the political harassment they face. I can't remember ones name but he doesn't have any business running for presidency. He has no foreign policy experience. The other however, Dean, I will vote for if he survives the upcoming primaries.

"(I strongly urge active protest on election day, as long as you don't get beat to death and it's fun)"
I don't think you'd get beaten to death, just merely to a pulp.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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A_M

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 09:37

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large_nostril: Don't you think giving money to an opponent if someone doesn't do what you want work the same as a bribe? But still, if you are paying someones for not doing what their opponents are doing, then you are paying (dishonestly persuading) them to keep doing what is in their favor (fits pretty well with your definition of a bribe). And even if it doesn't fit exactly with the dictionaries explanation of the word "bribe" then how could it be considered different morally?

Also, I don't get this: You're saying the president should have even more power? In my eyes that wouldn't be very democratic (since then all of the power would be held by someone who doesn't have as much of the public support). In Sweden we also generally only have a one party government but they (and the prime minister) don't have nearly as much power as your president. The Riksdag (pairlament) does nearly all of the decision making, and thanks to it being a proportional pairlament we have 7 different parties there now and the views and opinions of most Swedes are represented here.

/ Andreas Mattsson

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Jadelion

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 09:56

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I'm a confused, what powers do you think the American president has (no looking it up folks that ain't fair) Really all he can do is pass or veto laws and issue executive orders. He can't declare war, all he can do is talk about it like he's declaring war. Congress declares war if they manage to vote to do so. Really its not 1 stupid guy running this country its a whole damn flock of morons(aren't there like 300 in the House of Representativs).

...that move was indeed...Bold.

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Arrow

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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 10:04

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I mean if fewer people voted last election and we got Bush, we'd get a moldy rock if nobody voted.

Yes, and look how many complain now, it just might work. Look at the possible canidants for the 2004 election. We got Bush for the Repubilcan, and I know how you feel about him. For the other side, we got the chance of getting Liberman (spelling?), Mr. I hate Video Games. So which lesser evil will you choose, Bush who is try to scapegoat all of America's problems on terrism and Iraq, or Liberman who wishes to remove the 1st amendment?

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large_nostril

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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 04:58

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"You're saying the president should have even more power?"
I'm not saying that. I am saying that the president already has too much power. He doesn't have "legal" power but he has "influential" power. And the damn houses that are supposed to place the president in check are too scared to oppose him. Maybe if the way that the house voted for a topic was different, they would vote against him. But the politicains are too damn scared to vote against the president because they are not closed ballots. Anybody in America is able to see who vote which way on public tv. It's just damn insane. People are being intimidated and will obviously vote in favour of the president. Most democrats (the people who don't want to go into a war) are sitting there with their mouthes shut so that when we got to war and it is successful, they can say "See, we trusted in this crap head all the time, thank you Bush." and when the war fails the can say "See what you've gotten us into you crap head, I never once supported you."

"So which lesser evil will you choose"
As I said, I'm voting for Dean. Lieberman doesn't stand a chance. He won't get the votes he needs from southern states. They're just too damn racist down there to allow a "Jew" to become president.

"Really its not 1 stupid guy running this country"
In affect it is. The damn democracts are too afraid to vote against Bush's policies and the republicans, well, they're republicans.

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The Communist

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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:56

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sorry, i've been away on a LAN-party (no internet connection), i haven't been able to participate in the debate. feels a little late to re-join it now though...

Workers of all lands, Unite!

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Arrow

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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:58

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That the kinda adittude that's ruinning this planet, lol.

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AGamer

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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 20:45

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I got a teacher kicked out of a school (didn't soo her drat) She hardly did anything but still got her kicked

There's no game made for you except the one's made your self

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WarWolf

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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 22:34

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why did you get her kicked out when she "hardly did anything"? sounds quite meaningless to me...

I didn't steal it!

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AGamer

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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 20:19

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Well I didn't go out of my way to kick her out she shouted some rude words out the headmaster was there he took her to his office after that never seen again and a friend of mine who lives next door to her said she got fired

Does that exsplain it

There's no game made for you except the one's made your self

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large_nostril

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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 06:54

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Great news, the butt lump of a teacher is still there (note of sarcasm

). And even worse, I still have her as a teacher. There goes my grade right down the rusty crap shoot. When I tried to get out of the class by talking to my counselour, he took me out. The next day I was placed back in there on the principal's "suggestion" (enforcement). Such a corrupt system. Well, back to sleeping in that class for me.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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Arrow

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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 17:55

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Well, if your grade suffers for no reason, then you got grounds to complain. Just keep studying.

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Never assume that what you see or feel is real.

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large_nostril

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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 05:42

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Me? Study? There is only one span of time for studying in my life. That's between March and May 15 to study for those AP tests. Oh man, it's already March 6.

And I really won't have grounds for complaining; well I would, they just wouldn't hold in my school. I have already gotten two "zeros" on assignments; the second lowest grade in the class was a 57 (out of 80 points). I'm the single person who scored an 800 on my SAT from my school. That teacher has gotten me so angry that I nearly tossed the desk out the window(not really, I only thought about doing so).

Does anybody here think that my written communication skills are bad? This is what the bimbo wrote on my paper: "Needs extensive tutoring in 'written communication' of thoughts." "Has tendancy to over formulate thoughts for a quick write." "Sentences are of convalutd nature." First, convalutd is spelled "convoluted." Second, the first two 'comments' contradict each other. If my thoughts are "over formulated" and the reader can see that, I am obviously not in need of tutoring. Third, I was the first one done with the assignment, so I obviuosly am able to communicate my thoughts in an efficient manner.

I brought these comments to the teacher. I think I am only precipitaing it but she is damn stupid. I think I'm going to tell her so tomorrow.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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Arrow

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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 06:26

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Starting a war with your teacher will only earn you more trouble. Just let it go, if you can't, a prank phone call from a payphone should hold you over. Last bit of advice, make time for studing.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
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large_nostril

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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 06:41

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"a prank phone call from a payphone should hold you over."

I did that once, got suspended for a week. Told the teacher that there was a mechanical defect in the type of car that he bought and that it was beign recalled.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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n3t3r453r

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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 09:09

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@Communist:
Where are you from? Îòêóäà òû, à?

Originaly communism contain a lot of great ideas of great people as Marks and Engels, but unfortunately there were no communism in Russia\CCCP(USSR) as there were no communism is other countries. The world is too stupid for it.

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WarWolf

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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 21:13

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Net Eraser, i'm from sweden.

your right, there were no communism in USSR. how old are you, did you experience any of that period? if so, can you tell a little what reforms have been made in the system and their consequenses? how does russia look now comparing it to the sovjet period? i'm really interrested in this, and i haven't been able to read anything about it.

oh, and by the way, what does "Îòêóäà òû, à" mean? =)

I didn't steal it!

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large_nostril

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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 01:36

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"The world is too stupid for it. "
I like your attitude.

"there were no communism"
I entirely agree; since when did communism entail mass muurder and a single leader?

"CCCP"
I've never heard that one before, what does it stand for?

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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The Communist

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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 02:03

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CCCP = the soviet hockey team, right?

Workers of all lands, Unite!

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The Communist

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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 02:04

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oooops... i think i wrote from warwolfs account up there

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The Communist

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thought i told him to log out. whatever...

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The Communist

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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 02:11

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also, i think that CCCP is
the Central Commmittee of the Communist Party...

Workers of all lands, Unite!

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indi

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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 03:19

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this has gone too far like i mentioned before.

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/

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n3t3r453r

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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 07:36

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USSR is the same as CCCP.

Hockey team? ?

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