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Dark GDK / DarkGDK : V1.2 - dropping Visual Studio 6 support?

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:08
Hi Guys,

Before I make the decision whether or not to drop Visual Studio 6 support from the new Version 1.2 update to the SDK (soon to be renamed GDK), I wanted to get an idea of the number of users still using VS6. There is no sense dropping it if the community is active on VS6, but the fewer platforms we support the more time and energy we can put into the few, ergo the desire to drop VS6. Let me have your feedback on this issue, and I will chat with the team about the best path to take.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
Van B
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:17
How is DevC++ support coming along?

If you had that in place, then you could drop VS6 support with much less of a splash IMO, M$ hating coders would appreciate that too.

Aegrescit medendo
APEXnow
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:48
Lee, my only response would be... is the latest DirectX Development kit still providing support for Visual Studio 6. Since you'd still need to build the libraries, they'd need the DXSDK also.

If support for the DXSDK becomes a problem with VS 6, just drop it anyway.

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer
scooby bloke
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:49
Sounds like a good idea to me. VS6 hasn't been supported by MS for quite some time, and may start having issues when people start moving to Vista. The optimization in vs2005 etc is much better than VS6 as well. At work we've noticed speed improvements of up to 25% just by recompiling with the new compiler.

I'd consider 2003 & 2005 to be essential, (especially as I'm using 2005 and so can't use the sdk at all at the moment) and VS6 to be dead.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 17:01 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 17:02
Yes, dont support anything less than VS 2003 - the last DX SDK wont really work work with VS 6 anyway.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
MiR
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 18:00
I use VS2003 so I donĀ“t care really. No one would care if there was a free alternative though.

Need path finding in your games? Have a look at the tutorials on Pathfinding.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 18:25
Looks like the start of the update might be nearish

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 20:49
drop vs6 like a bad habit - I did the second vs2002 came out

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Zeal
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 21:55
VS2003 here (like most of us). I think your point about fewer platforms = better support is very valid, so go for it!

About "GDK", what exactly does it stand for? 'Game' Development Kit? I googled GDK and all I came up with something about Gimp (the paint program). IMO Dark SDK is a much more professional and respectable name, you should really consider leaving it alone!

PS - Nice to hear a official voice here on the forums! Long live Dark SDK!

All you need is zeal
CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:26
Quote: "you should really consider leaving it alone"

dont let Apexnow hear you say that...

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Zeal
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:28
Is he in love with GDK or something? Just to confirm, it stands for game dev kit right?

All you need is zeal
APEXnow
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:34
Gah!!!! Don't change the name again!! Took me a day alone to replace everything in the DGDK.NET source from DGSDK.



Paul.


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Lance
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:53
Yikes, I still use VC6 and like it.Payed a lot of money for the darn thing.
Don't like or use .Net or any of the newer VS and don't plan to.
Zeal
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:53 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 22:54
Quote: "Gah!!!! Don't change the name again!! Took me a day alone to replace everything in the DGDK.NET source from DGSDK."


LOL...

Heres the only point I want to make, then ill shut up

It may sound silly, but one of the reasons I made the leap from dbpro to dark sdk was for the 'street cred'. If you tell any serious programmer that you code in something called dark basic, they will laugh (a unjustifiable laugh, but a laugh none the less). If you want to be taken seriously, you NEED experience with some mainstream language (c++, c#, ect..).

So when I tell people I code in c++ with dark sdk, people know what c++ is, and they know what a sdk is (what KIND of sdk doesnt really matter, I dont even have to say anything about video games). However saying you program in c++ with dark GDK, begs the question, what the hell is a "GDK"? 'Oh its a GAME development kit'? 'So you type stuff like /make game rpg, awe thats cute'.

Again IMO Dark SDK is a more professional and respectable name, and I think thats something A LOT of people (like me) are looking for when they graduate from DBPro.

All you need is zeal
Inbetween Games
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 22:57
Although I keep it loaded on my computer for looking at old projects, I've converted all my stuff to VS2005. I have not actually started a new project in VC6 since VS2002 came out.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 23:14
Quote: "Don't like or use .Net or any of the newer VS and don't plan to"

kiss your programming career goodbye then, sorry to say

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
APEXnow
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 23:19 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 23:22
And to add to that, just because 2003 and 2005 have .NET in the name, you can still program unmanaged C++. So I don't see what the problem is in upgrading anyway!

Paul.

[EDIT][EDIT2]nvm


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Lance
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 23:39
I program in straight C...
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 23:43
All sensible people do

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 00:38
what do you program in then Philbert?



Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 00:40
ho de ho ho

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
Barnski
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 02:07
I'd like to have VS2005 supported. Currently I am working with 2003, only because of dark sdk.
And I will deinstall v6 soon, so an incompatibility wouldnt bother me.
(oh no, I am not a rich man, these are all student licenses...)

Briere
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 02:14 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 02:15
IMO dropping VS 6 shouldnt be too big of a problem, since VC++ 2005 Express is free, and VS 6 is like a million years old.

I just got rid of VC++ 6.0, I hate it.
Waiting either for an update to the GDK for 2005 support, or for me to finish my DX books and write my own wrapper!
Zeal
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 02:27
Quote: "since VC++ 2005 Express is free"


I heard you had to download some video/sell your soul to microsoft in order to get that. And I also heard the offer expired a month or so ago. Whats the latest news on that?

All you need is zeal
Briere
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 02:29 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 02:29
Free forever, you heard wrong.
I also got a FREE copy of Visual Studio 2005 Standard coming in the mail for me just by watching a few podcasts, but that offer is over now.
enablerbr
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 04:46
Briere if M$ hadn't been so tight on it being for US/CANADA only. i'd have watched the vids too.

as for vs6. seems pointless as it no longer gets support from M$.
Briere
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 05:50
Microsoft for ever
RSJ
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 06:01
Since it is VS2003 which is being used now, VS6 may remove.
MikeS
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 06:27
I say remove VC6 support, I personally don't use it anymore. I think the majority of programmers are moving towards 2003 and 2005 editions due to .net and just to have a more up to date compiler.

I agree with what Zeal said about the name and how that plays psychologically to someone who doesn't use darkbasic/dgdk/dsdk/dgsdk.

@Lance

So do I 95% of the time.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
Gervais
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 16:14
This is definitely a dead development package it is old and slow lets move on to the future and donā€™t look back so kill VS6.
Miguel Melo
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 01:18
Late, but here - drop version 6. It's currently eating away at my Hard disk for the sole purpose of playing with Dark SDK every once in a while! VS2005 forever! (err... or at least until 2008 or whenever they release the new one)

I have vague plans for World Domination
APEXnow
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 02:04
Pretty much sums it up Lee, I've only seen one vote against dropping v6. Majority stands. Drop v6.

Paul.


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IanM
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 16:55
Quote: "kiss your programming career goodbye then, sorry to say"


How very windows-centric ... believe it or not there are many other platforms available that don't use .NET, many languages that don't, and much business available for them. I'm busier at work than I've ever been, the company I work for is growing in leaps and bounds, and we don't touch .NET

Anyway, back on topic ... drop VC++6 and work on 7.1(2003) and 8.0(2005)

For free Plug-ins and source code http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 17:33
Quote: "How very windows-centric "

um, yeah, thats what we were talking about, VS on windows.

Quote: "believe it or not there are many other platforms available that don't use .NET, many languages that don't, and much business available for them. I'm busier at work than I've ever been, the company I work for is growing in leaps and bounds, and we don't touch .NET"

great, thats you, and I am happy for you. Now answer me a question, is or is not MS moving away from COM and into .NET as the mainstream technology?

someone who says,
Quote: "Don't like or use .Net or any of the newer VS and don't plan to"

especially the "don't plan to bit", to me shows signs of stagnation. Technology changes things move forward. If you remove .NET from this discussion my point is still valid. Stagnation=death.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Lance
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 18:18 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 18:24
Oh well,I guess I lose..
VC6 Studio cost me over $1000.00 when I bought it.
Briere
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 18:56
That doesnt mean you cant use it anymore.

I doubt you dont know how to program without the DGSDK if you are putting $1,000 into a software package.
IanM
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 21:01
@CR,

Uh, no. We were talking about programming careers without .NET either on or off windows.

MS is moving away from COM (a pig of a system if there ever was one) and into .NET - that's true. But it's the only company doing so, and it'll stay that way until MS allow other large IT companies to influence the future of .NET (I'm talking of the likes of IBM, Oracle, Apple etc). None of them are going to take the chance of being tied into a technology that they have no control over.

Unfortunately, MS can't play the same game that Sun did with Java, building partnerships with the large IT companies - MS have always tried to be the only player in town, and that's the way they are playing .NET.

It's a shame too, as .NET is a much more capable platform than Java, mostly because of the fact that because it's not tied into a single language, making the VM potentially much more generic.

@Lance,

I believe that the next version of DSDK will allow you to use the free version of VC++2005, so although you won't be able to use VC++6, at least you'll still be able to use DSDK.

For free Plug-ins and source code http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
monotonic
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 23:37 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 23:38
When microsoft first started development on the .NET platform I believe that they was planning to make it compatable with linux aswell but dropped the idea due to *time to market* I believe was their excuse, errr I mean reason.

Its a shame because it would have been nice, but the linux community have their own version, the mono project, I'm not sure what stage of development/release this is at, it was quite a while ago that I last checked.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 00:29
on a side note there is already a .net port to linux, and its not up to ms to make anything for linux, its linux's business to do that. .NET is based on XML, xml is not platform specific

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
monotonic
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 01:33
I never said it was upto m$ tomake anything for linux! but m$ did originally say they was planning to make it compatable, and the .NEt port you speak of is the mono project I mentioned earlier, I thought it was a totaly different product but I have just been browsing around and found that it is infact a sort of compatability layer much like wine.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 01:56
Quote: "When microsoft first started development on the .NET platform I believe that they was planning to make it compatable with linux aswell but dropped the idea due to *time to market*"

if thats not putting the onus ms I dont know what is.
ill reiterate, .net is xml, its already compatible and has been, its up to the other platforms to engage some version of a framework for THEIR platforms.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
monotonic
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 02:33 Edited at: 10th Jul 2006 02:35
Quote: "ill reiterate, .net is xml"


Hmmm, thats not correct now is it? the .net framework exchanges data mainly in xml and has a lot of xml services but it is not xml, to be fair maybe I didn't explain myself very well when I said m$ was making .net compatible with linux I was talking about the compatability layer that the linux guys have created, microsoft was doing this because a lot of servers run linux and .net was originaly intended for web services and frontends only and only become an application level development platform at a later stage of development.

Its seems from your posts that you assume that I started programming when I joined these forums, I have been using .net based languages professionaly for some time now!

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 03:06
I wasnt assuming anything, just seems to me that certain people here are assuming that I am some ms-centric .NET fanboy - I'm not. Well maybe a .net fanboy, a lil, but im no fan of ms, trust me.

earlier when I said:

Quote: "Quote: "Don't like or use .Net or any of the newer VS and don't plan to"
kiss your programming career goodbye then, sorry to say"


I was actually referring to the "stagnation" aspect of his post, and not any particular technology, but of course it sounded if I meant that if you don't use .net your carrer will dwindle, which I didnt intend. Then Ian jumps on (which in the assumed context, he should have) but when I explained what I meant, I still get a whole diatribe having to do with nothing that I was saying.

anyway monotonic, I am not implying anything about you personally in my posts, good bad or indifferent, or about your programming experience. But to me your posts sounds like it blamed ms for other os'es not running .net.

anyway, I dont recall the original topic here... oh yeah, Dropping support for vs6

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
monotonic
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 03:18
lol, yeah drop vs6 like a smelly bottom burp.



I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
Sephnroth
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 15:52
just spotted this and figured I would up some defence of VC6.

Its a good IDE and a nice compiler. It is, imho, alot more light weight than the latest "pretty" IDE's, loads and runs faster and gets the job done nicely. It also, and this to me is important, compiles native win32 code out of the box without requiring a download of the huge platform sdk. Further more alot of people already own it and have been using it legitamatly for years and now can't afford to buy an entire new suite forcing us to go the route of 2005 EXPRESS and when I already own the enterprize studio of 6 this ends up being a damn downgrade. Then I end up with an IDE which was designed with .NET in mind (to such an extend that i have to manually download and install win32 support!) and as i'm not interested in tying most of my stuff to the .net framework and simply trying to make native win32 dgsdk applications im then not using over half the features the new ide does have. Sounds like a pretty crappy deal to me.

I recently formated and installed 2005e and havnt reinstalled my 6 studio yet in an effort to try and get used to it. As far as typing code goes I quite like it and some of the formatting options are nice like tieing of brackets to their opening lines etc. But apart from that it was a pain to download, install and setup the win32 platform sdk (as if the fact it had to be installed wasnt bad enough, why the hell do I have to change 2005e's data files myself in a text editor? nice one!), I then I had a hellish time trying to convert my vc6 winapi programs over (level editors etc) due to weird error messages I had to google and find out what "new" thing was causing it in 2005 and there were PLENTY of further nuisiances like, to pick one example, not being able to double click an item like a dialog or whatever in the resource tab and have it open in an editor because it just brings up a note saying "not supported in visual studio 2005 express". Why thankyou.

So yes, im sure this isnt something people care about if they already own a proper edition of 2005, or if their college will give it to them or if they are willing to pirate it. But for people who cant get the enterprize or even standard editions of the software and already own an enterprize version of 6 we are now being forced to downgrade to an express version with a higher number - exactally identical to when for some game I had to upgrade my graphics card to support the latest shader version and all I could afford was the gf5200fx which, although a newer card which supported the latest thing, was so much worse than the old one when it came to general running and use and made everything else a slower and more painful experiance.

Anyway, just my little contribution. I doubt as the only person who sees a problem with loosing vc6 support that it will change anything, but I cannot personally approve of it unless tgc are going to start giving away free copies of vc2005 standard :/

scooby bloke
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 17:56
The VC6 IDE is horrible. I recently had to go back to it at work (to fix some legacy code), and I had forgotten how nasty it is, (I need my intellisense ). It runs slower on my laptop than vs2005 as well, especially when doing desktop sharing via livemeeting etc. That's an extremely painful experience...

Also (as I mentioned before), the same code compiled in vs2005 + optimizations will run significantly quicker than when compiled with vc6. Surely that's a good thing where games are concerned? VC6 will not work with the latest "vista-compatible" direct-x sdks, and so if you continue to use it, your code won't work on the new OS when it's released.

VC6 is dead and it's time to move on to the next thing. I know what you mean about wasting money, but things move very quickly in this business...
scooby bloke
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 17:59
Quote: "Unfortunately, MS can't play the same game that Sun did with Java, building partnerships with the large IT companies - MS have always tried to be the only player in town, and that's the way they are playing .NET."


Not entirely true. They do have a great number of very large partners, whom they work with very closely (and provide support to), so that they can provide technologies that will fit into the .NET framework.
zao420
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 18:07
i am glad i got my free copy od vc2005 standard, but i had vs 2003 standard so there is no real loss. i say kill support for vs6. does it even support the lastest direct x. if not there is no reason having it.

Red Ocktober
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 18:10 Edited at: 10th Jul 2006 18:15
Quote: "The VC6 IDE is horrible. I recently had to go back to it at work (to fix some legacy code), and I had forgotten how nasty it is, (I need my intellisense )"


so, in other words, what you're saying is, that you prefer the intelligence and the sense, to be in the ide... as opposed to being in the coder...

--Mike
scooby bloke
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 18:37
Erm, no. If I'm going back to some code that I haven't looked at for 6 years, (or even code that someone else has written), it's very handy that the IDE pops up the method names / parameter lists for me when I'm rewiring bits. It saves me having to trawl through the code looking for them. Saves time, aggrovation and money.

Very handy when working on project with several hundred cpp files.

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