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Dark Physics & Dark A.I. & Dark Dynamix / Dark Physics Approval

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 03:15
Quote: "but am I woried of the price tag with no reason ?"


The key is this part here:

Quote: "Licensed developers who implement PhysX accelerator support in their PC title are not required to pay this fee."


So in short, if you support the HARDWARE in your game (by adding in more effects, etc) then the fee does not apply to your title. Of course all of this only applies if you want to commercially sell your game, if you want to release it for free there are no issues at all.

If you are making a commercial game then yes, to be on the safe side, I would budget in having to buy a PhysX card in order to allow your game to really rock (in both software AND hardware mode), allowing Aegia to approve it easily. If you dig into their FAQ there are more on this, including the infamous 'grandmother' test.

We will post a new thread about this tomorrow collecting all of the required information together.

Bite my shiny metal ass
UDun
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 03:15
Great ! Amazing ! It's a wonderful plugin !!
I'm very impressed by the demos especially clothes demos (bullet cloth). Everything works very well. The documentation is clear, there is a lot of examples.

Clearly, thanks TGC !

Coding is dangerous for health ...
Xarshi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 03:43
Quote: "So in short, if you support the HARDWARE in your game (by adding in more effects, etc) then the fee does not apply to your title."


So you could basicly make an option that sets it on or off? or are they meaning you have to have it so that if you don't have physx,you can't play the game at all(commercial wise of course)

and by the way,the vehicle demos are hilarious! They were so fun

About -10 min. if tgc is nice

well,it'll be released apparently at 1:00am for me. But who cares,I've stayed up all night plenty o' times
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 03:58
Quote: "So you could basicly make an option that sets it on or off? "


Sure, it could be a user-configured option.

Bite my shiny metal ass
Xarshi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 04:16
ok,well,then thats awsome. I'm not sure why people would be upset or worried about that...

About -10 min. if tgc is nice

well,it'll be released apparently at 1:00am for me. But who cares,I've stayed up all night plenty o' times
Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 05:01
'Vehicle.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.'

I already tried installing the drivers and reinstalling the drivers. Out of three test programs (Vehicle Arena, Ragdolls and Fire), only Fire worked, and that rather badly. It wasn't so much a fire as a faint spark. Banner doesn't work either.

Thanks for any and all help.

Cheese!

Expert Bug-Finder, Horrible at Identifying Them.
Xarshi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 05:23
that happened to me once or twice. I think one was on the vehicle.exe as well,and another was part way through the ragdoll shooter(which was odd,cause it worked for like five minutes,lol.)

About -10 min. if tgc is nice

well,it'll be released apparently at 1:00am for me. But who cares,I've stayed up all night plenty o' times
HowDo
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 06:56
Just one word to describe it.



I'm not getting you down am I, Ho Look! another fancy Door?
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 09:38
Narf The Mouse, can you provide more information about your system. Can you also check you are using the latest version of DirectX and other drivers for your system.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:05 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 10:07
Hey, I've downloaded the demos from the website (I haven't bought DP just yet). The first time I tried the bridge my computer rebooted upon exit from the demo The next time I ran it, I ran that Ageia tray application, and it didn't do that again. But the bridge handles fairly erratically. If I turn off shaders, reflection, and shadows, I get 134 FPS, but the bridge acts like it's make out of radioactive jello, and it simply won't stop shaking. It doesn't seem like the physics are handling properly. The gravity seems super slow, almost like it isn't timer based or something.

I've got a 3 ghz system, 1 gig of ram, and with my unfortunate clean reboot, nothing running in the background.

I'm very worried that the system isn't at all practical for software only applications


Come see the WIP!
BillR
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:13
Cash Curtis II -
1 Gig RAM is good
What kind of CPU..3 Ghz What?
What kind of video card?
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:14
The bridge demo doesn't have any specific timing on it. When running at fast frame rates say above 60 fps it will need to be altered. You can either use phy set auto fixed timing for this or adjust the parameters of the bridge. It really needs some extra damping on it to make it more stable.

The default gravity is fine for most situations but you have to look at it in relation to the size of the scene. Sometimes the default settings need to be increased to match the scale you use in your scene. This is the kind of thing that needs experimenting with.

As for the reboots it may be a possible driver issue. Can you provide any further details.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:32
I'm using a 3 ghz Pentium 4, 1 GB Ram, ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, 128 MB video ram. My computer handles most anything with ease.

The bridge demo runs about the same no matter the framerate, 15 or 134. The bridge won't stop shaking, and it does so rather erratically, like there is an unresolved force present. As such, it looks completely unrealistic The gravity isn't really an issue, but it should definitely be turned up in this demo. I think that the more realistic the simulation, the more impressive it will be.

I'm not really concerned about the reboot. I guess I should have had the tray application running, I just like a clean system, and I'm very conservative about what applications I have in the background. I guess that's the MS Dos in me.

If I wasn't a DBP user and I saw that demo, I wouldn't be impressed with Dark Physics. I've had a good amount of experience with game physics, and if a ragdoll wouldn't stop shaking like that I'd officially classify that as a problem that needed to be fixed.

Sorry to be a downer about all of this. I just expected something a little different. I do have faith!


Come see the WIP!
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:47
It's more of a demo specific problem rather than something to do with the software. With a few changes to joint settings the bridge demo would be much more realistic. Will look at getting it changed so we can update the demo downloads.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 10:52
Cool. I know it will be great. A lot of non DBPers will be making their purchase decisions based on those demos, so a good demo is better all around.


Come see the WIP!
Xarshi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 11:07
yeah,that bridge demo did shake some,but don't let the shaking make you think that dp is less powerful. You play one cloth demo and you'll be rather amazed. heh,I love dropping cloth onto a bunch of little squares and seeing them rip through leaving the cloth tattered with holes. Its so amazing.

Woohoo. DP is finally released!
Xarshi
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 11:57
Huh,I'm trying to think of how dp handles mass. Does it handle it by size or what? or is it randomized. I know the objects have mass,even if you don't use the phy set rigid body mass...so now I'm somewhat confused. I do know although,that this is a really good engine. I'm starting to love it more and more,as I develop a little fps with it

Woohoo. DP is finally released!
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:02 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 13:05
Quote: "but don't let the shaking make you think that dp is less powerful."

Ummm, okay I'm a big supporter of TGC and Dark Basic. I just think that the Bridge demo doesn't do Dark Basic or Dark Physics justice just yet.

I also have mixed feelings about the cloth demo I saw. It all seemed very slow. Tearable cloth is nice, but not really necessary for what I generally do. Maybe this is the source of my reservations in that regard...
Cloth Video

Dynamic Cloth Video, 2.77 MB



That was not done with Dark Physics.


Come see the WIP!
BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:04
Quote: "So you could basicly make an option that sets it on or off?"


You can auto-detect the presence of the card.



Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:06
Would not take much to recreate the video you posted in Dark Physics. We have a demo included that is similar but instead of a character you get to move a ball around and push it into the cloth and see how it all reacts.
BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:07
Quote: "I also have mixed feelings about the cloth demo I saw. It all seemed very slow. "


Teraable cloth is a niche feature. If you put it anywhere and everywhere, it would grind to a halt. It might be nice for a base flag, winning the level by blasting the opponent's flag. But you certainly wouldn't use it for clothes, curtains and tablecloths all in the same room.

Once you make cloth non-tearable, it's much more efficient.



Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:08
As for the speed of demos remember that it can all be controlled. You have control over properties of all objects and global settings such as gravity. You can customise these things however you like.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:10
It is hard to gauge things when only seeing 3 demos. I'd recommend downloading the help file as well and taking a look through that. We'll also look at uploading more demos so you can a better idea of what Dark Physics can do for you.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 13:24
I'm very familiar with the help system. DP is ridiculously user friendly.

At the moment, those three videos are the only thing I have to judge DP by. I know that the speed of those demos is probably a result of weak gravity (since the physics are all timer based), but the final effect is still lacklustre. I very much look forward to more demos, and an updated bridge demo.

Quote: "Would not take much to recreate the video you posted in Dark Physics. "

I bet your ball doesn't curse though


Come see the WIP!
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 14:05
The demos all seem a bit reliant on the coders hardware, so some will be slow, some will be smooth as silk.

Really I think these issues will be resolved once timing and stuff like that can be set - so you would adjust your gravity and physics time dilation to suit your project. Most of them seem slightly slow on my machine (not to Cash's extents though), but really - I think the cloth demos are the most impressive, especially the tablecloth one, being able to drop that stuff and have it mould is awesome.

Be sure to download the other demos, because there's some great stuff in there.


Ohh, one other thing - DP will run on the penultimate DBPro but really badly, so even if your sure you've got the latest upgrade like I was, double check if your having issues.

Aegrescit medendo
monotonic
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 14:15
A question about the phy start command.

When no parameters are passed what are the default values that are set, I mean does it check if a PPU is available and if so use it or does it just default to software mode.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
geecee3
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 14:58
What you are seeing is bifurication, this is to be expected in certain scenarios, and can be overcome dampening the movement, much of the not so obvious stuff like dampening has prolly been overlooked when making the demos, given the right amount of time to explore the possibilities of the system, getting rid of the bifuriactaion and other 'oddities' is very easy, you just have to know how to do it. Until you actually compile and execute code, you can't really say there is a problem, You never wrote the demo, And I know it can be corrected with minimal fuss. There are tonnes of options and commands to help with stability of the physics sim, you can do things like limit angular and linear velocity, or set bending forces on the joints to make them stiffer and less subject to bifurication, the overall scale of your scene will also have an effect on the simulation, How big is that bridge??? it could be exceptionally small or exceptionaly big, at certain extremes all physics systems will have issues. After all they had to introduce the universal constant to get a physical simulation of the universe at Nasa and Jet propulsion Labs. Its the same for virtually any physical simulation that is run on a computer.

As the codebase and overall know-how of DarkPHYSICS increases, people will post many different ways to rectify the problems and oddities found in ALL physical simulation engines.

We're computer programmers, not physics professors, therfor it might take some time before we fully understand the mechanics that causes the bifurication, but it's normally a build up of forces present in a collection of rigid bodies that is struggeling to come to rest. This happens in MAYA's physical simulation too under certain circumstances, It happens in truespace (which uses an implimentation of ODE.) it happens in all physical sim softs unless they have been dampened.

As for software only applications, well thats up to you really, I have had scenes of several hundred physics objects all interacting on a celeron 1.3 with intel GMA graphics @ 60fps, no real issues at all.

Ohd Chinese Ploverb say : Wise Eskimo, not eat yerrow snow.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:09
Grant - you are, of course, right. But what I think Cash was saying that is that as a DEMO (i.e. they cannot edit the source code), all of these factors need to have been taken into account already - because it's a "one show wonder" sort of affair really. If it doesn't impress on first go, we loose a big chance to get them back again.

The bridge demo works fine on all the dev PCs, but that doesn't mean ALL PCs (ours are particularly uber in all fairness). But we can address this in future demo releases, including options for the user to mess around with the settings in real-time. And just create better demos of course (like Lee's pyramid explorer one)

Cheers,

Rich

Bite my shiny metal ass
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:14 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 15:15
geecee3, I sent an e-mail to your Hotmail account.

Quote: "But what I think Cash was saying that is that as a DEMO (i.e. they cannot edit the source code), all of these factors need to have been taken into account already - because it's a "one show wonder" sort of affair really. If it doesn't impress on first go, we loose a big chance to get them back again."

Exactly


Come see the WIP!
BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:18 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 15:19
Quote: "If it doesn't impress on first go, we loose a big chance to get them back again"

The bridge demo is pants on my AMD Barton 3000+, with GeForce 5200 FX card. When I switch off shaders and shadows, it's fine.

Maybe the ground should be textured when shaders are off, then it would still be very presentable. And perhaps a check of the FPS along with an automatic downgrading of features if it's too low. I would imagine the average user would say Yes to everything, and be quite quickly put off. It's not the physics that's at fault, it's the other bells and whistles (especially shadows!)



Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:20 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 15:21
But even when I turn everything off, the physics act about the same for me. The bridge jiggles and vibrates uncontrollably even at 150 fps. Even at a slow speed, the physics should resolve the forces about the same as at a fast speed.


Come see the WIP!
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:23
Someone should upload that cloth shooting demo - anyone who see's that will need DP .

It was so late yesterday that I only got to check out a couple of things - but really I can't wait - it's got more bells, better whistles, and IMO it will completely change the spectrum of project styles we see here - bring on Armadillo Run style games, that can be our forte - those sideline games that do a lot technically and tend to make decent money.

Your timing is all wrong though TGC, your a month early - how is anyone supposed to work on their Retro comp games now! - too busy thinking about the possibilities with DP.

Aegrescit medendo
HowDo
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:49
Mike and TGC thanks for the new objects will be very usefull.

Now to save up for a quicker machine, a P3 1ghz is just about running it, if I change the sync rate from 60 to zero.

I'm not getting you down am I, Ho Look! another fancy Door?
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 15:58
HowDo, to improve performance you can experiment with the timing properties with the command phy set timing. Setting the maximum iterations to a lower level than the default 8 will help to speed things up. I'd also try setting the skin width using the command phy set skin width to 0.025. Probably more properties to experiment with as well which may help. Are you finding that it's specific demos causing slowdown? How does the Falling Objects demo from the Rigid Body section run?
Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 21:24 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 21:25
Quote: "Mike Johnson: Narf The Mouse, can you provide more information about your system. Can you also check you are using the latest version of DirectX and other drivers for your system."


I've installed the latest graphics card drivers (NVidia, GeForce) and the June Directx 9.0c. Still glitches when I try to compile.

However, I havn't had a problem with the demo executables that came with DarkPhyisics.

From SiSoft Sandra:


Cheese!

Expert Bug-Finder, Horrible at Identifying Them.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 21:28
Thanks for the info Narf. Can you try one of the more simplistic demos such as the Rigid Body\Falling Spheres demo. Does this work for you? Does it run at a decent frame rate? Do you get any problems with this demo?
Omikron
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 21:45 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 21:50
This is ace!

Pea-easy to use, yet swings from tree to tree like an agile super-monkey!






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Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 23:01
It did something that might be it working. Trying to upload the video; this time, in parts.

Cheese!

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Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2006 23:05 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2006 23:14
Part two.

Ok, that doesn't seem to have worked. I can't seem to download them. How about I email it to you?

Cheese!

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 00:08
Narf, I'm having trouble getting those videos. Can you explain what happens please when you run demos. Please provide as much detail as possible so I can try and solve this problem for you.
Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 00:33
When I ran the 'Fire' demo, there appeared to be two points spitting out particles; one on the 'floor', another back and to the left. Both groups of particles traveled, at most, three pixels upward before falling.

When I ran the 'Falling Spheres' demo, the spheres exploded out from a common center before falling.

Cheese!

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 00:37
Narf, can you check the frame rates on these demos and let me know how well these run? It sounds like these 2 demos are running exceptionally slow for you to be getting the effects you describe. Can you try running the Your First Dark Physics program which can be found in the Dark Physics\Information section. Does this appear to work fine for you? Can you also try the Using Multiple Rigid Bodies program.
Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 01:04
Using fraps for fps...Fire doesn't want to work anymore. Falling Spheres starts at 1FPS and accelerates to 60FPS - Possibly due to the spheres having left the screen. The box in 'Your First Dark Physics' falls into the 'ground', then stops. The 'Using Multiple Rigid Bodies' program runs at 1-2FPS for about 20-25 seconds, then goes to 60FPS. The spacekey part of the program doesn't appear to produce a sphere, although the FPS drops. No cubes are visible.

Cheese!

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 01:19
Narf, how do you get on for running other DB Pro programs? I'm wondering whether it's simply a case of your system not being able ot handle things or perhaps something system related is interfering.

Can you try taking the Using Multiple Rigid Bodies and after "phy start" is called add in this line "phy set timing 1.0 / 60.0, 1, 0". Can you see how that affects the frame rate.
Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 01:54
Quote: "
The default gravity is fine for most situations but you have to look at it in relation to the size of the scene. Sometimes the default settings need to be increased to match the scale you use in your scene. This is the kind of thing that needs experimenting with.
"


That is totally true. Default gravity setting = 0,-9.8,0. In my game, 0,-200,0. When I first tested a rigid body by putting one of my door entities in the sky, it fell so slow I made a cup of tea before it hit the floor (obviously exaggerating there). Clearly compared to a gravity setting of 9.8, my door is equilent to an airport runway. On pumping up the gravity, it fell like the brick it is nice and fast and then proceeded to rock about like a mental patient for 20-30 seconds (this is a box primitive, not a sphere or anything), before finally coming to rest. Then it occured to me my mass of 10 made my runway sized door have the weight of a amoeba. So after resetting the mass to 10,000 it fell like a brick, clattered about realistically for a few seconds and was at rest.

I anticipate I'll have to have massive force numbers and friction to get my simulation to work as expected due to the scale of my world, but that definitely goes to show you need to spend time tweaking the values to get it right.

Narf The Mouse
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 03:09
I know that certain complex visual effects can cause my system to pause every few seconds, regardless of the program. I'm not sure which effects they are, though.

Other DBPro programs appear to all run fine.

No effect on the frame rate.

Cheese!

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Xarshi
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 03:16
Hah,fallout,that seems the deal with me too. I was making a quick thing to test dp(I got worried cuz some of the demos ran slow,but then I realized that was just them...), and I made some spheres to shoot. They were scaled at 0.2,with a mass 100,and it took me to add a force of about 100,000 to move it even nearly fast. Of course,that could be because of lack of gravity on that object(I set gravity off). And then,I realize that even with continuous collision detection,the bullets very rarely effected anything(they did hit,I even got the confirmation of a hit with the phy get collision data() command). But,I will mess around with this until it works. Otherwise this is simply great,and I'm enjoying this thoroughly. Thankyou tgc for developing this for us,and Mike,seems you're going crazy to get things working for people

Woohoo. DP is finally released!
BillR
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 04:33
Fallout & Benny53 - you will have to play around to find what values work for you. The scale of the simulation matters, materials,etc.

In the demo/games folder, the pachinko game uses gravity of -2000.

Ageia suggest keeping the simulation in the -4000 to +4000 range.
Xarshi
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 05:36
I'm still trying to find out how that blur effect was setup on the advanced machinery... I know its not physics,but I cannot find where they did it!

Woohoo. DP is finally released!
HowDo
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 06:07 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 07:39
Quote: "Are you finding that it's specific demos causing slowdown? How does the Falling Objects demo from the Rigid Body section run? "


I think it just my machine doing to many other things as well, have tried switching off most of what is not needed and there was fair increase in speed.

The big demo with all the falling sphere on to angled platforms only ran at 1 to 2 frames a second.


Apart from the small problems its just fantastic can't wait to know more command off by heart.

I'm not getting you down am I, Ho Look! another fancy Door?

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