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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [STICKY] Learning to write Shaders

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Mike Inel
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 04:17
Well, um, i'm still a newb on this, but am now willing to learn this time!
I have a question, if there are more textures applied to an object, will it reduce the performance alot? (Ex: Diffuse(w/ alpha)+Normal+Specular+Lightmap)

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 14:15
Quote: "will it reduce the performance alot"


Good question. Generally, more textures means more instructions to process them so there will be a performance hit. However, I believe some GFX cards have some parallel processing ability "behind the scenes" so, depending on what you are doing exactly, the slowdown might not be too great.

I'll see if I can knock up a simple normal bump mapping demo (PS2) with just one light to compare the following combinations:

1. diffuse texture alone
2. diffuse plus normal bump mapping
3. diffuse+normal bump mapping+specular map
4. diffuse+normal bump mapping+specular map+light map.

Might cast some light on the issue.
Mike Inel
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 14:55
Thanks! I'll look forward to it!

Math89
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 15:35
I've changed the Evolved's normal mapping shader to handle specular maps. It requires ps 2.0 but I really like it .
Stage 1 : diffuse
Stage 2 : normals
Stage 3 : specular
Stage 4 : Normalizer
Mike Inel
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 16:44
Whoa! My computer is still down, so I still can't try them now... (Stupid darn computer that can't handle my applications!)
I never thought you guys are this quick!
(After looking at the modified code) I don't understand a single thing.............. Maybe I should really give up learning HLSL and limit myself to what are provided... >_<'

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 17:17 Edited at: 17th Jun 2007 17:35
Quote: "I never thought you guys are this quick!"


Math89 might have beaten me to it - but here's a fully functioning demo instead.

If your machine is much faster than mine you'll need to modify the angle settings, etc, in the select statement, etc in the dba file.

My machine gives roughly 80/50/120/90/60/55 FPS for options 1-6 in the demo.

Haven't implemented alpha yet - perhaps you'd like to give it a go, Mike?

Note that some of the adjustables only apply to my original shader posted some time back.

[Edit: @Mike Inel

Quote: "I don't understand a single thing"


Just ask - we'll try to help.]

[2nd edit: The image quality is slightly better if you remove the texture flags from the "load image" statements in the dba code - they were a hangover from a long-forgotten example which used non-power of two images. ]

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Math89
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Posted: 17th Jun 2007 19:19
Actually, I made this shader a few monthes before, I'm not that fast .

I've got 115 fps with the diffuse shader and 75 with the final one.

@ Mike : I don't understand a lot of things about shaders (espacially all the maths stuff), I juste do a sort of copy/paste with a few changes and it works .
Chris K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2007 18:40
Hey that's what everyone does.

There's basically one guy sitting in a dark room in the basement at nVidia actually writing original code, everyone else just rips off of him.

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Mike Inel
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 00:01
Aw, man... My computer is still down... (Deliveries sure are taking ALOT of time...)
Is DarkSHADER good at this? Or everyone still prefer FX Composer?

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Jun 2007 00:12
Quote: "Is DarkSHADER good at this? Or everyone still prefer FX Composer?"


DarkSHADER is much better. I still use FX Composer sometimes, mainly as a cross-check and it gives info on shader performance. However, for development, DarkSHADER is much closer to the way DBP works and is much easier to use. It also has a nice collection of shaders to get you started - and they work correctly in DBP.
MikeS
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Posted: 29th Jun 2007 20:22
Would anyone object to me moving this to the DarkBasic Pro board?

This thread has a lot of good information, and I think a lot more people would be able to get exposed to it in the DBP section now that the competition is over.



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Mike Inel
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Posted: 29th Jun 2007 23:56
I agree to moving this thread...
(My computer is still down... Grrrr...)

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 03:19
Quote: "I agree to moving this thread..."


So do I.

It might encourage people to write some new tutorials ...
Chris K
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2007 13:51
mKay I have updated the opening page and I am getting set on a some awesome tutorials!

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dononeton
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 05:21 Edited at: 10th Jul 2007 05:25
How do you setup a shader to apply the effects to just the alpha channel




I know I dont have any pixel,vertex shaders written just really the UI. The thought just cross my mine.

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Chris K
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 14:04
You need to get the shader to read from the texture file, then just adjust the .a or .w part of the colour before you return it from the pixel shader.

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TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 14:29 Edited at: 10th Jul 2007 14:34
@green gandalf,
here is the game code:


and here is the DarkShader fx code:



The Quad.fx file:

By the way, am using LiT frustum culling, dont worry, see the section of shader init and the update section on the main loop...
Am using 6.5 and its works but its to slow, more than ver 6.6b.
Regards ...



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 17:59
It would be more helpful if you posted a SIMPLE example with ALL the media. Then I can test it for you. If what you say is true then a simple (and short) example should suffice.

Without wading through your code there is one thing you could check. You need to make sure that the full-screen quad is in front of the camera - otherwise it gets culled. Automatic culling was broken in some earlier versions of DBPro and reinstated for U6.6b.
TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 18:12 Edited at: 10th Jul 2007 18:12
Sorry, i will change the media, cause the media used for that test is my game media.
But yes... il gona the autoculling off for the plane objet, i think is that the problem!!
@+
If dosent work ill update some media to test...
Tanks GreenG,
@+



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TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 19:06
Yes,
GreenG, you are the man!
We have to set cull off the plain object for quad , then rotait it to the main camera,! Yahoo!.
the perf is well boosted, about 20% with 6.6b, cause with ver 6.5 i gotted less than 100 fps, now i got 130-250 fps with all media, physics and AI.
Tanks again GreenG.
@+



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 19:17
You're welcome.
TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 23:10 Edited at: 10th Jul 2007 23:27
I have an other lit question for you GreenG.
This is the vertexshader code from the stencilshadow.fx ( the DBP shadows shader )

At this time the vertexshader extrude shadow surfaces from the position/direction of the lightsource.
I would like to know if is possible to extrude vertex but no from the light position/direction, from the camera position/direction? My goal is to cast shadows from shadow caster objets but i dont want self shadowing on shadow caster objets, receive only shadows on shadow receiver objets. So i think if the vertex shader extrude surface from the camera, it is possible, to extrude surface but from an other position and direction right?
I try a lots of trics, cuts and pastes , but am dont know well HLSL ( only very basics ). If you know well HLSL you can do that mathematics changes...
If you could help me with this...?
Regards,
@+

EDIT:
GreenG, am using your Misty Fog Shader, its a wonderfull shader, but could you put a variable float4 in the shader(i mean, change a bit the shader ), to let us change the direction of the fog? If is possible for you of course.
Tanks again,
@+



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 00:51
I haven't used stencil or shadow shaders so it will take me some time to get into the code. However, I've just had a quick look and I don't see any reason why the extrusion/shadow shouldn't be from another position - although wouldn't it look rather odd if it wasn't in the direction of the light?

The crucial line in the shader seems to be



The variable g_vLightView seems to be the position of the light source in standard DBP world coordinates, so you could try changing the shader code as follows if you wanted to use the camera's position instead:

Change this:



to this:



and then add the following lines to your dba code (in the right place of course )



(I'm assuming vector4 number 1 is free and that you are using effect number 1.)

You don't have to use the camera's position - you could use any other world XYZ coordinates that made sense.

I haven't tested this so it comes with the usual health warning.
TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 05:21 Edited at: 11th Jul 2007 06:11
Quote: "I don't see any reason why the extrusion/shadow shouldn't be from another position ..."

I only whant the extrusion from an other direction(exempl camera direction ) not the projection.
Here is an other problem. How can i pass those light position to the shader? Cause this shader is executed internaly by the DBP engine... Could you change that to the direction of the main camera in the shader code?
Also, theirs is an other solution, apply( externally )that effect to an objet, it works extremidly fast, and you can set the effect on objets with 4K and 5K polys. But the main problem that the extrusion is not correct, the GPU will not dettect surfaces and project the shadows on every space ( 3D world ).
Anyways, if you could simply add thoses functions(that you post) in the vertex shader code (internally), cause i cant pass anything to a internal shader.
Am gona try your changes this night, then tomorrow i will post post the results.

Tanks again GreenG,

EDIT:
If i do the extrusion and the projection of the shadows from the same direction of the camera, i will never see the shadows.

I need to do the extrusion from one direction (camera) and the projection of shadows from the g_vLightView : POINTLIGHT.
I think, we have to set up an other variable in the shader and do additional things in the vertexshader code....
Regards,
@+



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dononeton
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 06:04
@Chris K

Thank for the reply and some insight on what to do. So I need to write a pixel shader to read the texture and get alpha info then return that info then use that info elsewhere in my shader

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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 14:58
Yeah, start off with a shader that just textures an object.

They'll be a line at the end of the pixel shader that says "return Colour" or something similiar.

You need to just say "Colour.a = 0.5f" or something before you "return Colour".

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 11th Jul 2007 15:30
Quote: "If i do the extrusion and the projection of the shadows from the same direction of the camera, i will never see the shadows."


I was wondering when you would realise that.

Quote: "How can i pass those light position to the shader?"


I just showed you how in my previous post. What's the problem?

Quote: "You don't have to use the camera's position - you could use any other world XYZ coordinates that made sense."


Like the light's position perhaps?

Quote: "I need to do the extrusion from one direction (camera) and the projection of shadows from the g_vLightView : POINTLIGHT.
I think, we have to set up an other variable in the shader and do additional things in the vertexshader code...."


Not quite sure why you want to do this - but I guess the answer is "yes" plus a bit more besides.
dononeton
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Posted: 12th Jul 2007 04:26 Edited at: 12th Jul 2007 04:33


Don't pay attention to the comments. They are there to help me remember what is going on. Well this just textures an object with its own textures so far I'm still not sure on how to extract the alpha info

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Chris K
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Posted: 12th Jul 2007 15:04
OK, instead of returning tex2D(texture1Sample,IN.uv)

You want to do this:

float4 colour;
colour = tex2D(texture1Sample,IN.uv);
colour.a = 0.5f; // SOME EQUATION I IMAGINE
return colour;


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Jul 2007 18:54
Here's another shader and demo for you to play with. It demonstrates the use of a noise texture to create a variety of differently, and randomly, textured objects. The textures are almost seamless - better disguised with some parameter settings than others.

The shader has been tested in both Dark Shader and FX Composer (the culling is not quite right in FX Composer - but is fine in Dark Shader and DBPro which is what we want ).

It could be used for creating coloured pebbles, skyspheres, etc. If you want to use the shader for skyspheres you just need to change one line in the shader (indicated in the shader code).

You can apply the shader to a variety of objects such as cubes, pyramids, teapots, etc, but for best results you should ensure that the middle of the object roughly corresponds to the origin, i.e. (0,0,0), in object coordinates (such as DBPro's default spheres and cubes).

Since this thread is supposed to be about "Learning to write shaders", perhaps some of you would like to have a go at adding a diffuse positional light to the demo and shader. I'll give feedback as you go if anyone wants to try.

Have fun.

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TATO 4 EVER
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Posted: 15th Jul 2007 07:51
I found what i have to do,
some one, really experienced with shadow volumes, explain me a bi what i need to do. I need 4 techniques with differents pass and 3 more vertex shaders codes. I will post the result next week.
And of course, if that work, everybody will be able to befenif of that shadow sytem. More faster and you can used with models with a lots of polys (4K,5K +)
See ya guys,
@+



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TinTin
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 17:43
Ok, here's a question for the GURU's
using shaders is it possible to say, texture a terrain. ?
don't all say yeah at once, ther's more...
now depending on distance from the viewpoint and height/slope angle of polygon the shader can call a number of other shaders to generate the surface.

So say on a terrain a flat surface at sea level would be sand then as altitude increases you'd get grass, shrub, rock, snow. the angle of these would be a modifier as sand, grass and snow don't stick to vertical surfaces.

The above is possible, GG has already developed this.

Now I'd also like to know if, say standing on a grass surface, that up close the viewer can actualy see the indiviual blades of grass but as distance increases, these fade and blend into just the flat texture. whadja think???

Cyberspace was becoming overcrowded and slummy so I decided to move. These nice chaps gave me a lift.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 20:55
Quote: "Now I'd also like to know if, say standing on a grass surface, that up close the viewer can actualy see the indiviual blades of grass but as distance increases, these fade and blend into just the flat texture."


Easy. Just use a grass texture that has sufficient detail (preferably seamless) and include a float tiling parameter in the shader so that when the shader looks up the UV coords it uses something like



instead of



(Might be better to calculate UV*tiling in the vertex shader - but that's a minor matter.)

Then set the constant "tiling" to something like 64, etc (and make sure the sampler "sample1" uses "addressU = wrap", etc.


The problem with this is that the regular repetition in the grass might be visible - but that is mainly a matter of experimenting with the constants and the textures.
Jna99
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 00:57
Hi I found on the web a shader to give the effect of moving lava, but I can't seam to make it work, I'll post it anyway, if anyone can make it work, please post the source.



Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 01:23
What textures were you using?
Jna99
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 04:31
Green Gandalf I'm using a texture map and a distortion texture( see the zip)

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Jna99
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 17:20
Hi again I also find a shader on the NVidia Page to make halos..but I can't find any example to make it work too!

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 20:23 Edited at: 21st Jul 2007 20:24
Jna99

Try this. I've made quite a few changes to the shader - I think I've marked them all in the FX code.

You should be able to experiment with the code yourself now.

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Jna99
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 21:13
Thanks Green Gandalf you've no idea how thankfully I am. Just help me on one more thing, the textures must be on the 0,1 stages right,'cause I can't seam to make the shader work when the shader is loaded without the default textures!

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 22:22 Edited at: 21st Jul 2007 23:45
Turoid and Julius Caesar

I attach a simple full-screen shader demo.

You can move the camera using the mouse and up/down keys.
You can adjust the red component of the scene by pressing "r" or "t" to increase or decrease it.

Press <space> to exit.

Note that any pixels which have zero red will stay at zero (like the backdrop in the demo). Change the backdrop colour for camera 1 if you want to see the background change as well.

Any questions, just ask.

[I know Julius Caesar will need another demo for Dark Shader - that'll come later.]

Jna99

Quote: "the textures must be on the 0,1 stages right,'cause I can't seam to make the shader work when the shader is loaded without the default textures!"


In this case you can't. One of the textures you're using is a "volume" texture and that can't be loaded into DBP (but can be accessed via the shader as the demo shows). You'd need to edit the file names in the shader if you change the images used.

EDIT OOPS!! Forgot three vital lines in the dba file - you need to make sure the full-screen quad is in front of the camera or you won't see anything when you move the camera to certain positions! The new demo should run OK with U6.6b.

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Jna99
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 03:26
Ok thanks again Green Gandalf, by the way Green Gandalf earlier I posted a Post Proc shader to make halos, It suposely works the same way as red shader shader of the "red shader demo"?

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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 18:42
Quote: "earlier I posted a Post Proc shader to make halos"


Just had a quick look at the shader you posted. It seems to be very complicated for what it actually does. It seems to just apply a bright green glow around the edge of an object (I tested it in FX Composer 1.8). Is that what you want? If so, there should be an easier way of doing it.
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 19:11
....wierd, I'm currently using HDR to make my halo effect, I was just searching for an alternative way...thanks again Green Gandalf

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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 19:48
Jna99

Here's a simple glow shader demo (a simplified version of one I posted back in November 2006). It just textures an object and applies a green glow around the edges. It doesn't use lighting or post-processing. Any use to you?

There could be a use for a post-processing shader as follows. Render the whole scene as usual but store it in an image (as in my redShift shader demo), with lighting, bumpmapping, etc. Then render again but storing normals and position data as the second image data. Then combine this with the original image using another shader.

It's not always clear which way to go. One advantage of the post-processing route is that you don't need to handle standard lighting in the shader - you just capture the result of the standard DBP commands in the screen image. It is usually slower though.

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Julius Caesar
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 14:03
Thanks GG! Just what the doctor ordered!

I do still have some questions though, besides the obvious of how to get the Darkshader bloom working Errm... I still don't quite understand the whole quad thing.

In your example, I take it your quad is being used like a TV screen, to put the image that should appear on screen in front of the camera? But in the DarkShader example they used an effect called "quad.fx". This really has me confused!

I apprecitate your help GG its so exciting this world of shaders

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 14:16
Quote: "But in the DarkShader example they used an effect called "quad.fx". This really has me confused!"


Dark Shader sets things up slightly differently - and allows more powerful shader features to be used such as intermediate render targets. If I recall correctly, I incorporated the essential parts of the "quad.fx" code into the fx file that I posted so it isn't needed.

I'm at work now so I can't look into this properly. I'll try to find time later today or tomorrow to put together a simple demo using the Dark Shader "quad.fx" file.

Did you say you couldn't find the file? It should be there somewhere - although it wasn't in the folder I expected it to be in on my system. (And I usually manage without it anyway.)
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 18:50 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2007 18:52
Can anyone point me to some Shadow Shaders (shadow mapping, soft shadows, etc.), I know there are a few out there (written by Evolved?!!) but his links are not working anymore...

Green Gandalf,
You rock man, you rock. You're doing a hell of nice work, haha, yeah...

Cheers,
-Try
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Posted: 24th Jul 2007 20:14
Guys...?!!!
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 24th Jul 2007 22:05
Quote: "I know there are a few out there (written by Evolved?!!) but his links are not working anymore..."


I think the following link is on his website. It might have the shader you want. I haven't tried it myself though.

http://groundzerodevelopment.co.uk/Module2.html
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Posted: 25th Jul 2007 02:23
Quote: "I think the following link is on his website. It might have the shader you want. I haven't tried it myself though."

Yeah, that's it. Thank you GG.

btw, do you know if it's possible to do Motion Blur in DBP? Like in Offset engine?

Cheers,
-Try

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