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3 Dimensional Chat / Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 15:03
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LOL, feel like I'm being psycho-analyzed by Sigman

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 16:38
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>You mean all the WINAPI stuff that should have been a free add on >for Blitz 2D? Mark even said himself that he wasn't making any more >money on Blitz 2D, so he invented Blitz Plus to generate more funds. >You mean the WINAPI attempt that tries to compete with PureBasic and >Visual Basic?

Why should it have been free? DARKMATTER anyway.....

>Trust you? You don't even have a valid BUID, you hardly know whats >going on, you have been gone for months. Maybe 4 months at least. I >read on both boards daily.


I got my copy of Blitz2D for FREE for being a beta tester back in 2000. So weather I have a buid or not you can't dispute the fact that I've got a legal copy. Ask Mark Sibly himself..(If that was what you were implying..if not, no biggie.)

Yes I have been gone, but I've been back for over a month. It only takes one day to catch up. I'm already Well into one project of my own, and possibly joining a develeopment team.( No dillusions of grandour(sp? hmm..) just fun 2d games.)

>The OpenGL support in Blitz plus is far from complete, even mark >says that in his changelog. He still suggests using Direct X for >stability sake. You are better off using a userlib for OpenGL >support, but whoops, your app still requires you to have Direct X >installed. doh!

Yes, but a very old version of DX, i.e just about any pc on the planet.

>Dark basic Pro will be out in a year when September 2003 hits at >that point Blitz 3D will be two years old and not much has been >added to it that I would consider major features other than mainly a >few hacks here and there and its being updated less now...

Blitz+ has been done in that time. The windowsAPI support is great(Because instead of taking the easy way out and giving us naked access, which would have made it pretty hard for most users to use(WinAPI in it's MS form is a evil thing my friend...) he made it very simple to use yet very powerful. He rewrote the underlying DX code Twice.

>bsps work, but are not really supported anymore, kind of like an >afterthought now. Not many people use them and they have trouble >loading some maps which Mark isn't really interested in fixing >because he changed his mind about this feature.

(Shrugs) Bsp is a piss-poor format if you ask me. You have no real level of interactivity... (No need to argue that point. It's just a matter of taste.)

>External IDE support - Well after Darkbasic Classic having to have a >crap IDE and not supporting external IDE's,you would of thought mark >would have got this along time ago, but nope, took a long time to >get this and its finally here.

Because the Debugger was integrated with the IDE. Which I still use over any third party one. It's perfect if you ask me.

>Mark is one programmer, verses at least two main ones for DBPro and >another person doing the IDE and other stuff.

Mark has wrote a slew of commercial games(2d/pc across platforms) and has been writing compliers since 1990(The first version of Blitz came out on the Amiga back then) It's quality, not..well you know the cliches..


>BlitzMax is a huge undertaking and people are expecting quite a bit, >which usually means people will disapointed, this happened with >DBPro and I am sure it will happen with BlitzMax as well.

Really? Blitz2d. No-one is let down.(Magazines hail it as the second coming. Best/fastest language there is. That's pretty much a universal oppinon Outside of the DB communinty.. I suppose it's a conspiracy?) Blitz3D -> Initial reaction 'Wow...so easy, so fast'
Blitz+ Initial reaction(After using it) 'Wow...Fast, very easy... Amazing'.
I don't doubt BlitzMax will achieve similar wide-spread acclaim...(Multiplatform remember, so it'll be in two market areas that DB won't. Not that is a deciding factor..)


>>>"<----<Ignites ciggy on the masses of flames eminating from the thread>"

What flames? Stop trying to start trouble. You're not a child....

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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 16:54
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Quote: "What flames? Stop trying to start trouble. You're not a child....
"


I was only being humerous, I had no intention of starting trouble, and I tend to leave the childish remarks to the misfits festering in AOL adult chat rooms. Personally, I've been following the posts with great interest!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 17:18
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Antony,

Sorry, but we care VERY little about 2D here - DarkBASIC/Pro is a 3D game creation language - that's what we use it for. I know 2D has a huge following, but ask anyone to describe their ideal game - how many will imagine it in 2D?. Please - nobody mention mobile phone and GBA games - the first handheld with propper 3D will kill the GBA.

I get annoyed with Blitzers, no mistake, just read some of my old BC posts after the trial for DBPro came out - mainly because you all seem to fester away with this attitude that is not really recipricated by us. We don't care if you use blitz, VB, C++, whatever - in fact the DBS team your so quick to critisize are fairly relaxed about us talking about other platforms - like this entire topic for instance. I don't know what other peoples goals are - but I intend to make games and apps in the language I choose, it should'nt matter if that's blitz or DB.

You can't sit and say 'I don't care what language you use' because your over here speaking for your community, and blitzcoder is the most anti-DB place on the planet. I mention a questionable title in BC's showcase - flamed for using DB, I post to tell folk about a free art package I'd made - flamed for using DB, I challenge the imature comments about the DBPro trial - flamed till I was crispy. If any of us took the same approach here then our posts would be deleted, and rightly so.
If all your gonna do is argue about Sibly and who's a better coder and all that 'Blitz is gonna be cross platform' nonsense that we heard the last time you trolled - then it's getting tired mate, we dont care. Do you ever wonder why none of us bother to post this style of nonsense at BC? - you and your brethren probably think it's because we know we're beat eh? LOL!


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 17:29
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Ape, sorry then.

Van, you don't post this style of nonesense over at bc because you have no legs to stand on. ( Want to compare commercially released games?)

But now I'm now just baiting so I'll stop...

I don't have a problem at all... it's just I can't let remarks go that I believe to be wrong. I am the rightinator... (Or somethng a little less corny...and a little more grown up...) the Punisher...yeah that'll do...



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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2003 17:38
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AntonyW3,

Just a question of curiosity, but Bltz2dbpro mentioned about UserLibs for handling BSP files, but was considered as an after thought, what level construction support do Blitz programmers use?

This is an honest question and I'm not intending to start a debate on whether BSP support in both packages is good or bad etc. I'm curious about whether there are better alternatives to using BSP which are better in terms of animated texturing, decent lightmapping etc etc. You see where I'm going with this?

APEXnow.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 18:01
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Just because Idigicon will publish any antiquated piece of crap you guys can churn out, does not mean BB games are better.

As for legs, looks to me like Blitz2DBPro chopped yours off and is running down the street with them.

But this is gonna end in flames, so I'll keep schtum.


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th May 2003 18:03
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I very nearly locked this thread yesterday after the discussion had reached a suitable point. I wish I had now, this is going in circles guys. Please keep on-topic and calm.

Anthony - "It's quality, not..well you know the cliches"

If perhaps this was all done "for fun", then yes I would agree. But Mark, just like everyone else, has to make a living somehow.

Personally I'm a little amused that Blitz2D is still on sale (in the download form) because it was given away free on a magazine cover CD! On the one hand they deem it a magazine freebie and on the other they still want you to pay for it. Doesn't seem right IMHO. I understand selling the boxed + book version though.

"Multiplatform remember, so it'll be in two market areas that DB won't."

Being in a market area is just the start of it. Actually pushing into that market, making yourself known, having decent contacts who can get you distributed worldwide, get you into shops and retail outlets - that is where the war is won. At the end of the day I agree Blitz (and all variations of it) are quality products - but you need so much more than this to survive in a commercial world. Personally I reckon expanding into a Mac/Unix market place will over-stretch any small company trying to do it. Multi-platform support is not fun, especially for a small group. Would it not make more sense to dominate the most lucrative market first?

"Want to compare commercially released games?"

Actually I've seen 3D Game Studio shot down in flames over at BC too - which is ironic seeing as it has FAR more commercial games to its name. Can you actually name some Blitz commercial games that aren't distributed via Guildhall? (this isn't meant sarcastically, I'm genuinely interested to know). Are any of them available in stores?

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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TigerZ
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Posted: 14th May 2003 19:50
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'The Blitzers server is damn slow, and is always down.'
Theres a good reason for that and thats because theres more and more people going on it, and the server couldnt handle it, so they had to upgrade the server to be able to supply the service.

Van-B, when Yavin and the other B3D started to post here was while BC was ALREADY ON. I posted only once on DBP forum while BlitzCoder was out of duty. So again, CHECK your facts before claiming anything.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th May 2003 20:23
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Pit the best DBPro programmer v's the best Blitz programmer and what would you get?

Two half written programs and a highly volatile forum discussion.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th May 2003 20:39
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"Theres a good reason for that and thats because theres more and more people going on it, and the server couldnt handle it, so they had to upgrade the server to be able to supply the service."

According to their news log it went more like this - the ISP couldn't cope with the traffic levels (bandwidth) so told them to find a new host and it took an age to get it all sorted out (something I can fully appreciate).

It would be nice if Blitz Research (? or their publisher?) at least contributed towards the upkeep of what is really the only truly active projects/dev site.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Cras
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Posted: 14th May 2003 20:52
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probably the most insignificant post and yet rich has paid most attention to it, at least we know where we can find him atm
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 21:24
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Ape, Bsp support comes as standard with Blitz3D. It's very fast but next to useless. (In what I can only describe as a moment of insanity, Mark chose a BSP format not compatible with.. The half-life editor? You know the one... ) But Maplet(A very good world-editor/light-mapper) wrote by Mark sibly himself more than fills the gap. And he is hard at work on Maplet 2.

>Personally I'm a little amused that Blitz2D is still on sale (in the >download form) because it was given away free on a magazine cover >CD! On the one hand they deem it a magazine freebie and on the other >they still want you to pay for it. Doesn't seem right IMHO. I >understand selling the boxed + book version though.

Well, the free version never came with a Buid.(The main reason for 'buying' blitz. Which entitles you to free updates for the life of the product. As well as forum access. (I personally don't like that... Mainly because I never got a Buid despite giving up five months of my life beta-testing the damned thing... Oh well, live and learn.))

As for market-penetration(Missus') I agree. Guildhall did an awful job of it. Most likely why they and Mark parted company. It deserves far more...



"Want to compare commercially released games?"
"
Actually I've seen 3D Game Studio shot down in flames over at BC too - which is ironic seeing as it has FAR more commercial games to its name. Can you actually name some Blitz commercial games that aren't distributed via Guildhall? (this isn't meant sarcastically, I'm genuinely interested to know). Are any of them available in stores?
"

I would argue but I'd be a bit of an hypocrite... I can't recall a single commercial game done in Blitz I've played for more than 2 minutes. Guildhall seem obessed with reliving the past..(Retro this, retro that... Who cares anymore you know? I want 3d epic games with stunning story lines... Not some crappy miniture golf game (No offence to the author. Just not my cuppa tea.)

But that said, I still stand by my comments that Blitz IS the more capable of the two languages. And remember I was a Db'er for over a year before converting to the light-side so I've got no real reason to be biased. Me and Mark have long since stopped speaking.(I gave out a beta of B3d to someone... So I don't blame him, but you know... I've got NO reason to stick up for him or Blitz other than I truely believe in what I'm saying.)
-

As for the idea of the best DB'er v The Best Blitzer... well, who you pitting me against? (Arrogance is a beautiful thing in the right hands... )

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th May 2003 21:39
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Well Antony, I used to think so little of the DB community and what I had seen that when the DB retro competition was announced I spent little more than 3 days on my flagship entry (I actually entered 4 times with a collection of quickly patched together games).

On the basis of what i'd seen up to that point I figured that'd get me a top 3... I was pleasantly suprised to find I finished 10th and that there really was a knowledgeable and skilled user base I just hadn't previously witnessed from the forums.

Arrogance is only beautiful when your eyes finaly open.

Of course I feel capable of a lot more than I demonstrated in the competition, but most noteably for me, since the retro competition i've been reading a lot more forum threads about how to do this, that and the other and in a few of them i've learned a few things and got even better.

I put down my self-pretence about being one of the best and accepted that this is an international community in covering a wide diverse subject matter, and no-one has the right to claim they are the best (although in my defence, I never actually deceived myself into thinking I was No. 1).

Pneumatic Dryll
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 14th May 2003 21:52
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I don't really think I'm the best. In fact I know I'm not. It was laced with smilies, usually an indication someone is not being totally serious.. I am confident in my abilities. I can't stand arrogant people to be honest with you.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 15th May 2003 03:15
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AntonyW3, cheers for the BSP info . It's ironic that BSP would become a standard format yet with all formats, everybody wants to reinvent the damn thing, Four separate versions of the BSP file structure come to mind (probably more), normally the first byte of the file, a real pain for working with. Anyway, I'm bablin.

Cheers.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 06:19
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Awww.. Blitzcoder is down again

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 06:50
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i would like to know which product you have more experience with Ant...
DarkBasic Standard, DarkBasic Enhanced or DarkBasic Professional

as each of these versions are different and do offer some unique enhancements.
that aside to be perfectly honest none of the other language even begin to compare with PureBasic in speed,depth,low-level access, etc...

i mean you can say until your blue in the face what BlitzMax will include - however i can use the Quake2 Engine out of the box with PureBasic, or use Aurora ... as i would in C++
you can setup inline compiler routines specific to certain systems - and with the exception of C, it is the only language i know which also caters to the Amiga market.

the way i see it, if you want to argue about which is the best technical BASIC language then PureBasic wins hands down.

that isn't comming from a fan of the language becuase quite frankly i hate the bloody thing ... it is however the technically best BASIC language right now. It is also probably the most open Amature language you are going to buy.

what i keep seeing over and over again in your arguments though is, Blitz2D - Blitz3D - Blitz+ all against DarkBasic Professional...
now unless i'm majorly mistake, then how can you pit 3 languages (albeit form the same developer) against DBPro?

the way i see it the language you choose is all about what is either a)best for the situation your in or b)what you prefer to use
also that said, but i don't think anyone really reaslises here you hear "oh i wish DB had OpenGL access!" and "Oh blitzmax is gonna have OpenGL"

ya'll know that OpenGL is ONLY a Graphical Language, it has nothing to do with sound, networking, windows api useage...
and infact did you know if Marc Sibley is using Blitz+ as the base for BlitzMax and that uses the WINAPI - then you can kiss goodbye to any multiplatforming - because the WINAPI is part of the Windows Operating system, and unless your version of Linux/AmigaOS has the WindowsAPI support added you ain't gonna be able to run those features on another OS.
also has he Licenced something like OpenAL for your Sound? cause DirectSound generally is only part of DirectX which is on which OS again?

you see the point in using DirectX isn't a pure graphical thing which is primarily what most people forget or don't understand... sure OpenGL has some nice short term benifits - but in the long run DirectX 8.1+ proves a Graphical API which is just as fast and has just as many features native... but also DirectX 8.1+ also provided Sound/Media/Network/Input/.Net access and you don't have to develop with specific extensions per device - but thanks to how Windows works you can use the DirectX APi to actually access ANYTHING that the system has connected at that point in time.
For games development (which last time i checked is what DarkBasic Softwares prime mandate is about) DirectX is simply the simplest and best choice for a total development platform.

at the end of the day, use blitz, use pro, use pb, use div studio, use whatever - couldn't really give a damn ... just make sure you understand 100% what is going on behind the scenes before you start off on a tangent about it.

all the packages are like cars, they all have thier faults, pluses and looks - but no matter how good a car looks or performs - you'll always choose the one you feel most comfortable driving.
and you can choose a car simply from a review of its features or other users of that car ... you've gotta test drive each one you like the look of and want to try - else you'll never know if you've got a bum deal.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 12:39
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I keep meaning to look up Purebasic, is it free? - and is it true that I can make .dll's for DBPro with it?

I don't think OGL is as good as people think - I mean a few years ago it was the best way to get good fast graphics on a low spec machine, you can get quake3 running very nicely on a P200 if you have a Voodoo2, but things move on. You've got to remember the X-Box too, PC developers will start making their games with the X-Box's DX engine in mind, so OGL is not really in a position to challenge DX.

Shame that Blitzcoder's down - getting ready for the Troll invasion .


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 13:33
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The reason I went for DBPro over Blitz3D is simply the support.

Rich is always present on these forums and we can generally get an official DBS response from him. Similarly, Lee is pretty good at replying to bug / feature request emails. In addition, if you ask for something from DBP, it normally turns up. Sure, sometimes we have to pay for it, when Blitzers' get it free, ala. Maplet vs Cart. Shop or DarkMATTER, but consider DBEnhanced' DLL support vs. Blitz' crummy DLL hacks at the time. The number of times I have seen Blitz' users wondering where the hell Mark is or complained of not being able to contact him.

At the end of the day though, both are very capable languages, commercial games could be written in both. As has been a major topic in the Blitz forums recently, the language is no longer the limitation, we are.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_101.zip
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Redflame
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Hi there,

I take offense to Van B's attitude. In fact I have always disliked his attitude. It is assuming, immature and annoying. He is also wrong in believing 2D to be unimportant. Games need to be made as they were intended to play. Using 2D or 3D hardware to make a game is irrelivant. Many games will be using 3D techniques to make 2D games now (alpha blending, scaling and rotation is irresistable!)

I'm responsible for some of the oldest demos in Darkbasic and was approached by Mark long ago to begin testing Blitz3D. I've not looked back since. However I would really like the darkbasic and blitzbasic communities to get along because I feel it will benefit both. Only a child thrives on rivalry. Imagine the contributions otherwise?

I see these development languages co-existing when users have the right attitude, so in future if people like 'Van B', 'Mouse' or 'Antony' stir up negative feeling, it's probably best to ignore it.

I don't feel like debating which language has the best features and so forth because talent makes games. Speed isn't as important and nor are features. I would say reliability and compatibility is the highest on my list as I would like most people to be able to enjoy my games.

But Critictism is needed of Darkbasic Pro and here is my take: I believe DBPRO has a reputation of not being reliable. I can't comment if this is true at present time, but I would like to see this addressed before any more features are included.

I admire Lee, Rich and team for their work as much as I admire Mark for his. Let there be an end to commenting on the developers - and let there be a start to sensible discussion and constructive critictism.

Rob Cummings

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 14:12
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Rob(Red Flame), as usual there you go like a heart-attack assuming all control. If WE want to dicuss it (And your comments are the FIRST NEGATIVE COMMENTS in this thread) then we can discuss it. That's OUR CHOICE. If people want to ignore it then they can. You don't have to tell them to.

You grow up. (Sticks tongue out.) (And that's a joke..)

And no, this isn't bait/flames, you've seen how I 'slag' someone off...

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 14:17
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Van-B,

No it won't. OpenGL is here to stay(It's not restricted to the PC, and to be honest the XBOX market is no-where near big enough to justify killing off OpenGL...) And who cares if the big boys use it or not? It's their lose IMO...

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 14:19
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Raven,

About a year using Darkbasic. A month or so using Db-pro (When I got my g4.. Wanted to check out DB's supposed next-gen 3d engine. But to my expectactions, none of them worked.)

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 14:46
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Antony,
I'm just being realistic, I have nothing against OGL, in fact - I prefer the smoother look it has over DX, dunno if it's my choice of hardware, but OGL always looked better. The point I'm making is that the main platform is Windows DX8/9 - so to get the best user base for our creations, we usually end up using DX.

RedFlame,
You completely misinterpreted my statement about 2D, VSD just placed 3rd in the retro competition with a psuedo 2D version of Jetpac, so how can I possibly be disregarding 2D style games?. The thing is, there is no real 2D after DX7 - so all the sprites etc will use 3D techniques - BB will have to adjust to this when it starts using DX8 - get over it. If my attitude does'nt meet with your expectations, then my heart bleeds for you, honestly, tell me what to do to make it right - I can't sleep at night worrying about irrelevant blitzers that hate me.


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 15th May 2003 14:48
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lol

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 15:07
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Yeah, you tell him Van-B

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Redflame
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Van B: you make absolutely no sense. You imply and twist my meaning. I have no time to argue with you.

I do not think you're representative of the db community. I do think people like uwdesign are, and these people attract new users.

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 15:58
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But you have time to add flames to an otherwise 'calmed down' discussion?.

As for attracting new users, well how many new users have you attracted to Blitz? - I've encouraged at least 3 people to buy DB as well as help them get started with their projects so please don't assume anything about me. Also, I recently donated the source code to my game Stoked to a multi-media teacher so he could use it to teach sound effects implimentation.

Coders like UW do things with DB I could'nt dream of, does that mean I should stop because I'm not that great?


Van-B

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Squashy
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:00
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A lot of silly nonsense from both sides, and some voices of reason too... still I do think it's good it hasn't been shut down.

Ultimately it is about the games, and although I've made my choice and I'm very happy with it, that's really my business... and watching people scrapping with their fellow indy developers is silly. Still this thread has inspired me to download some of the retro comp entries which look very nice indeed (I'm really, (no, REALLY) hoping they don't cause my machine to crash randomly, as many promising-looking DB games I have DLed in the past have unfortunately done, I'm sorry to say!).


oh, and

- Although that jetpack game looks very, very nice, it is quite clearly using 3d graphics, to imply otherwise is silly. To sneer at 2d in any way is equally silly. Like suggesting that 3d renders are going to replace drawing, painting and photography in the "real" world...

- I know of several people who are using blitz professionally, including ones that have absolutely no dealings with Idigicon. There are people who are supporting themselves solely with blitz programming. Sounds like a professional to me... even though they aren't working for one of the big studios. Actually I respect them a lot more than I would some lackey at one of the big software houses. Viva indy developers! ALL of them...

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:17
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When did I say Jetpac was 2D? - I said:

"a psuedo 2D version of Jetpac"

Meaning 2D but not really 2D. It uses 3D objects and plains for everything, although it's a fixed camera and a 2D style game - everything moves in 2D.

Can I ask a question. How do you guys know about this thread? - I mean are you emailing your Blitzer buddies about it?


Van-B

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:25
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"I know of several people who are using blitz professionally, including ones that have absolutely no dealings with Idigicon"

Will someone PLEASE post me some examples of a commercial game made in Blitz?! I hear so many times how Blitz is the only one capable of commercial games, etc, but I've yet to actually see one. Either show me something or stop saying this, it's getting really frustrating.

"Like suggesting that 3d renders are going to replace drawing, painting and photography in the "real" world"

Hmm like in films you mean? Where digital work replaces nearly everything.

Show me a new commercially released 2D game that isn't on the GBA please! I love 2D stuff, love it to death, but don't agree that it's commercially viable any longer. For fun, perhaps, for retro remakes, definitely. For making serious money? Not a chance.

Cheers,

Rich

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:40
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dont really want to get into this so im not even commenting on blitz or db, but a reply to rich about 2d ^_^

Theres one game that isnt the newest thing in the world but really isnt that old - Heros of might and magic 4 - its a bueatiful iso engine it truely is ^_^

One intresting thing is games that combine 2d and 3d. I dont mean a 3d game with a 3d interface either, i mean like a 3d enviorment populated by sprites. If you havnt, definatly check out at least screen shots to the popular mmorpg called Rangarok Online (http://enweb.ragnarok.co.kr) - its a VERY good idea for mmorpgs too! Completly removes the issue of 300 players with all their polygons on the screen at the same time by replacing them with sprites - and the players can be as detailed as the artists care to draw too. Very clever engine.. so smooth, and the 2d seemlessly melts into the 3d world..

Anyway, sorry if im a little off topic, just wanted to comment on 2d things for a moment ^_^

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:53
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@rich

Pseudo 2D is still pretty popular though, on the GameCube, I can think of a few titles... Ikaragua, Viewtiful Joe etc. and then we have the 2.5D games, such as Wario World. But agreed, none of these are massive titles. 2D does have its advantages for pure gameplay, as it distills adrenaline down to its essence.

"Hmm like in films you mean? Where digital work replaces nearly everything."

*cough*Matrix Reloaded*cough*

A good example to my mind of DBPro and Blitz3D is the recent Pea Guy contest, look at "Defeating Doctor Robotica" and look at "The Magic Land", one is DBP, one is Blitz, both are graphically excellent (bearing in mind that DDR's author has gone for a more realistic style, TML is more cartoony), both play very well, and both demonstrate that a good published game can be made with either package.

As for engine superiority, Rich ran some tests a while back, with Blitz3D versus DBP, and both achieved pretty similar FPS (altough DBP always does slightly better for me), under maximum stress testing, DBP won, but too be honest there isn't a great deal in it. Additionally, if features are missing in either, there is a good chance that they can be added, as both packages are highly expandable (DBP slightly more so thanks to IanM's work).

The only real points that should concern people are:

Blitz:
- More stable
- Runs better on older PCs in general (only needs DX 7 as well)
- Lacks new features such as cube mapping (very useful), rainbow shading (quite useful), bump mapping (gimmick), render to texture (quite useful) and shaders (not widely used anyhow).

DBPro:
- More core features
- Better support
- Lack of low-level features (being worked on).

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_101.zip
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:04
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"Ikaragua, Viewtiful Joe"

These are not 2D games!

My whole point was that commercial games are 3D these days, regardless of if they present it that way on the actual screen (as the two examples above show). It doesn't matter if it's a flat textured plain or a true sprite - they'll both look the same, but one uses 3D technology and the other doesn't. My only comment was that the true 2D games are long since departed from the commercial mainstream. I'm not knocking them, hell anyone who knows me should know what I feel about 2D, but the discussion was centered around the commercial viability of games made with X and I still maintain straight 2D ones have very little (outside of "release it yourself"/shareware sites).

Cheers,

Rich

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:04
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There seems to be some confusion about what is meant by 2D, myself (and Rich too I think) see 2D as sprite based games like Sonic or any number of 16-bit games. Anything that uses a 3D object is 3D - it's upto the designer to set the look of the game, but I like to call games that appear 2D, 'psuedo 2D'.

Of course, 2D is vital for application programming so it'll always have a place in my heart - but even the GBA is getting 3D games - anyone seen Driver on it yet?.


Van-B

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:20
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As for those tests, I wrote the counter-prog in Blitz (Spinning sprites etc) and it ran a lot faster than DBpro. Remember Guy(Your mod) even had to admit defeat on this. (That was quite a sweet moment.

Then Snarty wrote a prog that was identical, yet had full mip-mapping(I.e sprites look smooth regardless of angle) and it ran just a bit faster than the DBP demo.(Which never had mip-mapping, and as a result have pretty dire looking sprites.)

Just the facts mam.
-

Rich, John Pickford (Of ZedTwo Interactive) uses Blitz, but I think only for prototyping.
And don't forget C-Shop(Which has it's own forum here!) was wrote in Blitz3D.

I would like to know what 'pro' games have been released too though, as I can't think of any...

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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:27 Edited at: 15th May 2003 18:32
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Quote: "
Hmm like in films you mean? Where digital work replaces nearly everything.
"


Yep, exactly. A lot of the time it looks like crap, right? So much of SFX in movies look more like videogame cutscenes these days, no class at all...

I take your point though; I'm using 3d hardware for my 2d these days too; it's a bit of a hassle (since direct3d, graphics cards, and everything were SO OBVIOUSLY not designed with this in mind) but that's just the reality. You know, I'm just a little touchy about 3d rendering killing off all other forms of animation; especially since to my mind it so often looks inferior...

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:28
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"As for those tests, I wrote the counter-prog in Blitz (Spinning sprites etc) and it ran a lot faster than DBpro."

This I'd like to see.

"Rich, John Pickford (Of ZedTwo Interactive) uses Blitz, but I think only for prototyping."

Some of the Microsoft X-Box developers use DBPro for proto-typing. The author of UnrealEd uses it. One of the lead scenery designers from Shiny (actually, he's moved on now, but was working on the Matrix) creates games he sells in it. But this isn't the point - I asked for commercial games made with it, you've shown me nothing yet.

"I would like to know what 'pro' games have been released too though, as I can't think of any..."

You were the one touting commercial-quality as being a benefit, not me. I'm not arrogant enough to assume someone will make a game you can buy off the shelves in EB in DBPro, because I don't think we hit that kind of market of developers. But you claim Blitz has - so time to uphold your claim?

Cheers,

Rich

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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:34
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Squashy,

That's why 'Aliens' is my favourite movie, but I can't stand 'Alien 3'. I detest CGI created characters - they always go overboard with reflections, it never fits. Jar-Jar Binks has a lot to answer to .


Van-B

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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:35
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"Yep, exactly. A lot of the time it looks like crap, right? So much of SFX in movies look more like videogame cutscenes these days, no class at all..."

You obviously have very little idea what goes on in making a film I assume. Having worked with Aardman Animations for several years I can guarantee to you that virtually everything you see on the screen is digitally enhanced. I didn't say CG (although you assumed it), I said digital work replaces nearly everything "natural". Everything from skin tone, to prosthetics, to compositing, it's nearly all gone through a computer at some point. A good example - in the Bond movie where the baddie women has a chunk of her ear missing - what do you think they did? Stuck on a fake? Nope, it's all pure CG work. You'd never know it though. Or how about Band of Brothers? The bit in Paris.. it's all fake. The german soldiers walking under the bridge when surrendering (hundreds of them). All fake. The spitfires and planes in the sky - fake. Even the colour of the sky is digitally created. You'd never know it though. You're thinking CG is all shiny spaceships and monsters, but that's the tip of the iceberg. So I stand by my claim, CG and digital enhancements exist on virtually everything you see on the big (or small) screens. Most the time you don't even realise.

Cheers,

Rich

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:39
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Rich, where on earth did you pull that from? My exact words were 'I'd be an hypocrite to argue, because I've never played a Blitz commercial game(See guildhall for the masses of 'em) that I've played for more than 2 mins...

The other time when I said 'Wanna compare commercial games?' My next sentence(Scroll up) was 'But now I'm just baiting' I.e... Re-read all posts before accusing me of things I never said.

And why tell me the Xbox developers? I was trying to anwser your question. There's no need to get so defensive! (Don't ask if you don't want to know...)

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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:42 Edited at: 15th May 2003 18:57
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Well, for one, Mike Boeh (retro 64) is using Blitz 3d, he is a full-time shareware author, that's how he earns his crust. You say, "that's not commercial"... I disagree. You may say, "I can think of x, who's doing this with DB" - I would say, that's great news! I'm not getting into this which-is-better argument, it's the whole, "both these languages are just for mucking about with", that I take issue with.

If you're talking actual in-the-shop retail, and not talking about Idigicon's admittedly patchy catalogue (except for my game of course, heh!) well... all I can say is, retail software is in a really bad way these days. Frankly you haven't much hope, in ANY language. That's not because you ain't good, or your tools ain't up to it, it's because the system is designed to keep you OUT. It's like there's a huge wall gone up between those that have made it big in retail, and those that haven't and those on the winning side are doing everything they can to build the wall up even higher. As independants, we shouldn't be trying to climb their wall, we should be trying to break it down... or simply find alternative markets and leave them to it. (The retail market is so boring and generic these days anyway)

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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:45
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And the language is not the factor. (I've never claimed it to be, just claimed that BB is the better of the two languages, which is my right.) The factor is time and talent. Dedication. Imagination... The language you use is a tool of expression.
Sure with a better paintbrush you can create a better picture technically, but give a true artist a 10p pencil and he'll create a work of art.

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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:53 Edited at: 15th May 2003 19:02
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Rich, of course I wasn't talking about the whole spectrum of digital processing. Hell I wouldn't be without the computer for any of it these days; and thank god we don't still have to do all compositing optically. But surely it WAS specifically CG we were talking about? That Jetpack game is definitely 3d rendered geometry, hence not 2d graphics. If it was using 3d hardware and 2d sprites, then I would definitely say 2d graphics, no question of "pseudo". I was talking about the snobbery that currently exists in the computer game world towards all kinds of non-cg art and animation. With a side-stab at how bad CG is ruining a lot of movie SFX these days. Not about digital processing in the broad sense. Heck, I'd like to see an example of a computer game that wasn't digitally processed...

Odd that you immediately assume I'm not familiar with the film industry. I can assure you that's not the case.

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 19:44
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"And the language is not the factor. (I've never claimed it to be, just claimed that BB is the better of the two languages, which is my right.) The factor is time and talent. Dedication. Imagination... The language you use is a tool of expression. "

It took a long time to arrive at that

Seriously though, you were doing a sprites test and Blitz3D is undoubtedly very fast at that, but there are scenarios where DBP is better. Each 3D engine has advantages and disadvantages.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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APEXnow
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Posted: 15th May 2003 19:49
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Rob K, I'm not getting involed, but you know what the next questions gonna be....

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Squashy
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Posted: 15th May 2003 19:58 Edited at: 15th May 2003 19:59
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No he doesn't! Because the next question is...

how about some download links to what you guys consider the real cream of DBpro games, either finished or in progress... not for any kind of language evaluation on my behalf, but I'd be interested to check out the talent that's around these parts (since that IS really what's going to put you over the top; many people's stuff will suck in any language, sadly).

I've already grabbed the top retro compo entries, I'll try em out tomorrow. As I say, I really do hope they don't crash on me... some of them screenshots looked lovely.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 20:24
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Anthony - "Rich, where on earth did you pull that from? My exact words were"

Don't take my post to refer just to you. I meant it globally to all Blitzers participating in this thread. I want to see what's been made but no-one ever shows me anything. It was you however who said "Want to compare commercially released games?" - well yes, I'd love to. I've nothing to show you - what have you got to show me? Nothing either it would appear? Maybe you were baiting - well, bait taken.. cough up

"And why tell me the Xbox developers? I was trying to anwser your question."

Because I asked for commercial game examples and got some proto-typing response back. My reply was to show that this doesn't actually prove squat because even DB has plenty of those.

Squashy - "But surely it WAS specifically CG we were talking about?" No, why assume that? The whole parallel came because of 2D vs. 3D. I'm saying these days you use 3D regardless if the end result looks like 2D or not. Your response was that this was a silly thing to assume "Like suggesting that 3d renders are going to replace drawing, painting and photography in the "real" world..." - when in reality that's exactly what does happen in the film/tv world and in print to a certain degree too. I wasn't being quite as random as you may think and if you truly do work in the industry you know where I'm coming from.

There are some straight CG works that are truly outstanding which the average person would never notice. The biggest problem with CG IMHO is that its widely used to portray things which don't or can never exist - dragons, monsters, space ships, etc. In those instances you know it's fake because your whole brain tells you so. Let's face it, none of us have ever seen a dragon walking down the high-street have we? So you look for the "game like" qualities in it because who's to say if a dragon looks "real" or not?! But this is getting way off topic It's just a pet hate of mine when people claim that all movie FX look "fake" and I just sit and laugh because in reality they probably didn't spot 90% of the CG that the film truly contained.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 20:36
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I'd imagine that CG is used to touch up the original film, as well as big changes. A good example I think, is a lot of those scenes when slight brightness / colour / contrast changes are made are probably done in CG. Have to ask Rich on that one though (for a guy in your mid-20s, you've been around quite a bit eh? ) For example, if the sky is overcast on filming day, just fix it in post-development. Aren't computers great

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