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3 Dimensional Chat / Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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Puffy
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Posted: 19th May 2003 10:59
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o_O Ack I'm not allowed to delete this... =P So... heres my opinion...

Blitz3D=Harder code
DarkBasicPro=Easier code... =\ there... done...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th May 2003 11:54 Edited at: 19th May 2003 11:55
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Star Wraith 1,2 and 3 (Shadows of Orion) are all DarkBASIC Classic.

>> It would sure be nice to see bump mapping / sphere mapping put to use in this kind of space sim.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th May 2003 11:56
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The Bubble Trouble demo was damn good fun - congrats

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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DMXtra
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Posted: 19th May 2003 14:22
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Well, Patch 4.1 is in Beta 2 at the moment. This should be out soon for DBPro users.

The really cool stuff is coming with Patch 5. I am very excited about the future of DBPro with Mike Johnson doing some awesome things that I think you guys will really like as well as some things Lee also has cooked up of course.

DBPro may have started out unstable but things are working a lot better in that department as well. Lee and Mike are geting issues fixed and 4.1 should be even more stable and the slow bug fixed and model formats added back in.

Things are looking good and the future is exciting.

Dark Basic Pro -- The luxury for game programmers everywhere
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th May 2003 14:35
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And I can't find out what this "cool stuff" is until Rich accepts by NDA docs. Sigh. The waiting...

Mind you Blitz users have an interesting time, they'll moan about a lack of features, and then completely unannounced, a massive new patch comes along. At least with DBP there are two programmers working on it and another for the IDE.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 19th May 2003 15:27
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To say DBP is 'much faster' is flawed...

Because on my machine that simply is not true. And on others. Yet on some, it IS true. (Not MUCH)...

Sitting in, the face of all this, I can come to one conclusion. Why the rivalry? In the world of dog eat dog development, shouldn't the little guys be sticking together? Shoudn't we find it within ourselfs to put aside petty differences, and you know, strive towards a common goal?

Maybe not in my lifetime. Maybe not in your lifetime. But in someones.. Somewhere..

(Slightly OTT perhaps, but can you argue?)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th May 2003 16:41
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Ant on my machines Pro outperforms Blitz, and not just a little ... i can push 1,500,000 untextured polygons in Pro at 60fps - i tried the exact same model in Blitz and it crawled at 12fps

same machine, same model, almost no code used cept load & rotate.
the simple fact that DirectX 8.1 is faster than DirectX 7a actually means that identical code will run faster within Pro natively anyways, especially as 8.1/8.2/9.0 all use interfaces for older DirectX.

that aside, i think the communities should be rivals and i think the products should refect these communities. why? because you have the same people asking for the exact same form these products and wanting it in the same emulation you'll end up with identical products ... good for community peace, bad for the progress of the products.

personally i help out alot of my rivals when i'm developing something, as i believe that although competition is good, it is also good to make sure you're both on an equal footing throughout.
That said communities for these products should want to back the one they've choosen and either not care or want something different to a rival product.
different tastes breed different likes, which is good because when the competition is fierce you'll always get the best version of the product you are following.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Siege Delux
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Posted: 19th May 2003 18:48
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Hem, there is about 157 post's, heck i have only read 50-60 of em.
But is seems that db blitzers have something agenst u all db's (also db users).

Some says that bb3d suck's and some says that db/sbpro sucks.
Some says that they hate 2d, and that 3d games will rule the game world. But that is not true, 2d will ALWAYS live. I am not agenst 3d or 2d if u got the impression of that i hate 3d or 2d if u got it in ur mind. Infact i like 2d best that 3d, there are a lot of 2d games that is better than 3d games. Some in here makes 3d games caus it is more popular to make and sell.

Pleas can we just stop all this flaming about what is the best and what is the shabbyest. dbpro will be better that blitz usersbut pleas can we just stopp this whole affair and begin making games in all king of engens.

Siege Delux...

Dreaming Tree Games
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th May 2003 20:20 Edited at: 19th May 2003 20:21
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"hat aside, i think the communities should be rivals and i think the products should refect these communities. "

I completely disagree, I regularly use / adapt code from the Blitz forums, so I figure things should go both ways. There are a lot of experienced programmers using Blitz, and I have certainly learned a lot from them. To say that we should be rivals is just ridiculous. DarkBASIC isn't a sports team, its a community - as is Blitz, and we are not Irish either

"that aside, i think the communities should be rivals and i think the products should refect these communities. why? because you have the same people asking for the exact same form these products and wanting it in the same emulation you'll end up with identical products ... good for community peace, bad for the progress of the products."

People can adapt DB or B3D as they see fit, who cares if the products are identical? - Pepsi and Coke are identical, but they still sell. If they are more similar, surely that is only a benefit for the users. DBP will probably be ahead on features, Blitz is probably structurally better.

"personally i help out alot of my rivals when i'm developing something"

Raven, if they ever produce another film of Lord of the Flies, I'll sign you up for the character of Jack.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 20th May 2003 03:14
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Raven, I barely know you, but I know you love to argue. So it's hardly surprising you would want the communities to be rivals.

Ps, We're #1.. Up yours! (Mallet to the head)

Just thought I'd treat ya to be a bit of rivalry

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Arrow
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Posted: 20th May 2003 06:04
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A) 2D may still exist, but it'll never be as big as it once was. Personally, I love 2D, many of my favorite game are 2D, and all my fav platform games are 2D. It does sadden me, but as of now the GBA is the only console that still has a 2D majority, not including countless Flash, Shockwave and Java games. The best we can hope for is sprite animation in 3D games. When done correctly it can be good, very good.

B) To be enimies and to be rivals are two different things. Name calling is not in the spiret of rivalry. Rivals are just two people competing fore the same goal, not against each other. In that respect, I think the BB vs. DB rivalry is a good this. It allows us to put more efort into our projects. When people begin to take it personally they become enimies and nothing gets done. You're too busy fighting with each other to get any real work done. In short, keep it clean and don't let it get personal.

C) Why isn't this in Genral Discution? The original topic has nothing to do with 3D stuff.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Van B
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Posted: 20th May 2003 13:01
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Antony, you have to disregard your sprite examples, just because Blitz was faster on your machine with sprites than DBPro - means nothing. DX7 and DX8 are chalk and cheese when it comes to 2D, DX8 uses 3D objects for sprites, Blitz will most likely go the same way - this means a number of issues on an engine level that we are not in total control off.

I think that blitzers really need to get behind BB3D and as painful as it may be - leave 2D behind, it's not a good idea and no amount of short sighted defense will change that. Disagree if you like, but I'm not the one who started this topic in a 3D discussion forum on a 3D game creation website. 2D has one place, Retro - which is the way it's going for GBA too - look at all the Bitmap Bros classics that are getting made for GBA, this is a great thing because I loved Gods and Speedball and Magic Pockets etc - but on the PC there is a few dozen console emulators and every game imaginable for them, that dwindles the 2D market down to practically nothing - who'd pay for a 2D game that's a bit like mario when they can have every 2D mario game for free in seconds?

I think that blitzers and DB'ers get along more than people realise, a lot of DB oldbies switched to BB3D, a lot of them use both. I mean look at Carto shop, started as a DB project them migrated to Blitz, yet it is sold through this website - you don't see 'why are DBS promoting a Blitz product' posts. I reckon the flaming starts as a result of people being defensive about their work, not because of any deep rooted rivalry.


Van-B

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DMXtra
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Posted: 20th May 2003 13:54
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I see Blitz in the same position Dark Basic was in a few years ago when Lee was by himself and over his head with 3D issues. I was very frustrated with Lee because he would say things and not do them because they were too complicated and there was tons to do and yes Lee's coding skills may have not been better than Mark's. This is true. This is pretty much true of Blitz today.

Today DBS is so much different than what they used to be. Lee has learned a lot and is becoming an advanced coder (although still not as carefull as Mark Sibly, and not as as advanced), then there is Mike Johnson, which in my opinion is more advanced than Mark Sibly, and he goes to conferences to learn the latest technology and keeps up with whats going on in modern programming. Then there is Guy who rocks at making advanced IDE's and compression code and other plugins and Rich who provides code for the website as well as for the tutorials.

DBPro is still moving away from the old DB Model as far as a programming language goes and its finding its own place. Its not perfect and there are still a few bugs here and there, but its getting there quickly. After Patch 5 things should really go even quicker.

Blitz is an okay language, but so is DBPro and so its all good.

The only thing I would like to see is the Blitz crowd to be mainly informed on what DBPro is and what it isn't. Sometimes I read the forums over there and some of them are so misinformed. Some of them think for example that DBPro is an interpreter type of language. hehehehehe :p or that there is a fee for every update or that you have to pay to read and/or post in the main forums.

Dark Basic Pro -- The luxury for game programmers everywhere
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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 20th May 2003 13:58
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Hm... "G4m3D3v3l0p3r" is something in my style But originaly I'm ~3+3(r)453(r)

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
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DMXtra
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Posted: 20th May 2003 14:01
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One more thing for Blitz and Mark Sibly...

Why doesn't Blitz Plus use Windows GDI to render 2-D since its really low-level and works on every windows platform and is not as prone to graphics driver issues.

Also why doesn't Blitz 3D render 2D using 3D, like the N64 and every console since then and version of Direct X since 8.0?

Sometimes I wonder why Mark Sibly does the things he does and most of the time it doesn't make sense to me(no offense).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th May 2003 15:35
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i don't know what the hell that Lord of the Flies thing is... but i'd suggest you look around at what programs i've been involved upon around here that have had my help even though i'm doing the same thing.

as for Pepsi and CokeCola being identical, if you think that then you have no bloody tastebuds to speak of... they're the same product but very very different in taste. as far as i'm conserned Coke is and always will be the one true Cola - and those who don't know the difference oftenly also like Diet Coke, which c'mon if you think that tastes the same you might as well get something like Rola Cola

that aside what i'm saying isn't for both communities to become a tonne of a biggots that need to poop on the others products to feel better or just stem hate... if you think thats what rivalry and competition is all about then i feel sorry for you.

my younger brother and myself are very strong rivals because of what we do - both being in the same field of work, and we will try our hardest to outdo each other ... but that doesn't mean i hate his guts for it. I hate his guts because he is an annoying letchy little bugger who can't keep his hands to himself around my girlfriends/friends/wife/etc... but i don't hate him because we're rivals. Infact i oftenly help him to learn new things because you can respect other communities and be thier rivals without the hate.

The competition i have with my brother and my friends within the industry pushes us all to do better than we felt we could, but at the end of the day i know that when we close the doors to work we can kick back and have a beer without any hard feelings for being beaten.

i think that lesson is a bloody good one for everyone who wants to continue programming or art into thier golden years should learn right here and now ... competition is healthy its how people deal with winning or loosing which oftenly isn't.

as for 2D, personally i don't care what games use 2D or 3D - if it plays well then it plays well, however it is true that everything is becomming 3D now.
Blitz is actually the only product on the market right now that still uses traditional 2D - anything that uses Dx8.0 or better uses psudo2D because its actually all layered 3D planes.
that aside even the last vestage of 2D the Gameboy is getting ever more 3D, just look at Doom the original was psudo3D ... the new one actually uses a real 3D BSP engine.

and i don't know anyone who can honestly say that MarioAdvanced is better than MarioSunshine simply because Sunshine is 3D - the extra dimension certainly makes the new games, but that doesn't mean the traditions of 2D should be lost.
Kung Fu Filmstar(or something like that) on the X-Box is a fantastic example of how 3D can be used to recreate 2D Beat'em-up games like Double Dragon but add something that would've been hard to accomplish in 2D which is destoryable sets.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Siege Delux
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Posted: 20th May 2003 16:16 Edited at: 20th May 2003 16:18
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Quote:

as for 2D, personally i don't care what games use 2D or 3D - if it plays well then it plays well, however it is true that everything is becomming 3D now.

Me :

I am with you, i don't care if it is in 3d or 2d. And it is sad that 3d is taking over 2d, for an exampel the fallout series has been taken over (to 3d) Fallout 3.

I like the 2d series (Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout Tactics Brotherhood Of Steel).

Dreaming Tree Games
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th May 2003 17:31
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never was a big fan of Fallout, i only got like 20moves before i got eaten by a big rat or something stupid that i couldn't kill ...
guess i'd of got into it if i even had a scooby they hell was going on.

but yeah 3D is taking over 2D in all aspects, which personally i don't care - as long as its the same game underneath the finish then let them make it in 3D is what i say.
Sides you can do alot more with a 3D model than you can with a 2D static picture
i think Zelda has recently shown how well you can give a 2D Look to a game without sacrificing the powerboost or effects that 3D can hold

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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G4m3D3v3l0p3r
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Posted: 20th May 2003 22:47 Edited at: 20th May 2003 22:49
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Eheheh how many other posts!

Thanx Rob

It was'nt my intention to issue any rivalry.
I had seen the bubble bobble retro compo DBpro entry, and I just made a fast comparison.

I think the rendering quality expressed with BubbleTrouble along a directx7 SDK basic wrapper (Blitz3D) is something really cool for that version of dx7.

Y, true Blitz3D is still dx7, so the rendering looks a bit "old", I tried to do my best with ENV mapping/shininess/alpha and multitexturing to obtain something not really flat.

I think the quality of the lightmaps in the levels makes of it a really nice looking game.

There are TONS of features blitz3D is lagging, and half the community is crying (complaining) for those lack of features.

I don't really know what M.Sibly is doing, but when I tried to point out a bug or suggest a feature lastly I was asked to give back the Product ID in exchange with money refund.

This is now, because since few months ago, he just came up with Radius Oval Collision implementation, and well, me and other people asked for this and he did it.

I think wrapping the dx8 or dx9 is not the case for blitz3D that well, I think it worth any $ as is !!!

Hopefully an openGL or dx9 (blitzmax) tool will came up...who knows what's in the mind of the Tea Boy ?

I'd like to see some stunning demo in DBpro now
Anyone would like to upload and give link ?
(no source needed)

Later guyz
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Siege Delux
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Posted: 21st May 2003 11:51
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The caus of lagging in 3d games can be "Bad programing". Lack of skills kan make a game very laggy.

So if you are to code good, then your game will go faster and more user frendly.

Dreaming Tree Games
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Rob K
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:21
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"my younger brother and myself are very strong rivals because of what we do - both being in the same field of work, and we will try our hardest to outdo each other ... but that doesn't mean i hate his guts for it. I hate his guts because he is an annoying letchy little bugger who can't keep his hands to himself around my girlfriends/friends/wife/etc..."

IIRC you are not married Raven and don't have a girlfriend, and with that kind of attitude towards other people, you are not likely to be either (not unless Anne Robinson is your type).

You argue constantly with everyone and are completely unable to comprehend the idea that being nice gets results. As tempting as it may be, for example, to punch the referee if he makes a bad decision in a football game, or taunt him, or threaten him, it never works. Talk to him on a positive note after the game, and he'll help you out in future.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 04:14
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i've had girlfriends and i've been married once already Rob... and my wife was an angel thank you, because she didn't care about my temper or temprement - but then again you've never worked with me so how the hell would you know what i'm like to work with?
or how would you know that you think an attitude of competition actually pushes people to do better?

you know its remarkable you're still in school yet you don't believe that pushing yourself to get the best grades, perhaps push against someone who is just naturally intelligent like setting yourself a goal would perhaps be benificial to you education?

the way i see it there are time you let sleeping dogs lie when it is is best for a situation otherwise you put your point across until you know you've been listen to ... and with a compack like what you have just done it says to me you haven't listened even slightly.
Especially if you still believe that rivalry has to be bitter or in anger.

yes i argue about almost everything and anything - but there are very few times i actually argue out of anger ... quite frankly as far as football is conserned if a ref make a decision then thats all there is too it because it is unlikely even if he is absolutly wrong and everyone knows it that he'll change his mind, the fact of the matter is he would be an idiot for making a bad call, and if he didn't make it on purpose then talking to him about it won't solve anything because he didn't know, and if he's just plainly and idiot well then he'll always be an idiot.

point is you've just gotta grin and bare some people just to make sure things work, not everything can be fixxed with a fist and not everything can be fixxed with talk ... more oftenly than not those who do things do it without realising it and can't help it.
When they do it on purpose you will know, and then you take action.

see this is what i really don't get about alot of people here, they think every litte disagreement is like something major that has a right or wrong response - well this is life there is no right or wrong response, just what your believe is the best response.
everyone is different and they must deal with everything in thier own damn'd way and its how you can deal with them that actually defines how they are.

believe it or not you let something just drop enough and that person will not do it anymore, if you constantly bring it up then it will cause a problem which will bite you in the ass for years and years to come.

and i wish you'd stop useing that bloody IIRC because i havn't a clue what it means... but if you are going to use it i'd suggest you get your facts 100% right before you do.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 14:14
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"i've had girlfriends and i've been married once already Rob... and my wife was an angel thank you, because she didn't care about my temper or temprement "

I'll agree on that point, very strongly.

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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 14:20
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"Y, true Blitz3D is still dx7, so the rendering looks a bit "old", I tried to do my best with ENV mapping/shininess/alpha and multitexturing to obtain something not really flat.

I think the quality of the lightmaps in the levels makes of it a really nice looking game."

I noticed on the first level that you used shinyness pretty effectively for those pillars. The lighting effects were very nice as well, and the texturing is damn good. Cube mapping would certainly look nice in some parts of the game, and if you know how to create shaders it would be brilliant - but that is very high level stuff, and I haven't seen a single DBP app use them yet (apart from any built-in effects)

The only real benefits which I think your game could gain via DBP is the shadow shading command, and also low level work via memblocks.

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 14:21
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IIRC - Isn't that If I ReCall, something weird like that, we should stick to LOL and ROFLMAO - everyone knows what they mean .

I have a brother, about 18 months younger, and we are always baiting each other. I usually just sit and take it - because it's usually childish rubbish, but when I decide to keep him going, onlookers are usually shocked at what we come out with. We can be totally brutal to each other, but never take it personally, that's just the way brothers are. He'll slag my PC off because he has a better one, or he'll rip the pi** because I can't drive, or I'm thinning, or whatever. The thing is, when we were kids, we were both tarred with the same brush, if George (HAHAHAHAHAHA great name) did something wrong, it was me too, or we'd get identical Xmas gifts - this made us fight a lot. The problem is that my bro and I are exact opposites, He likes to drink, I like to hemhem - He drives, I bike - He plays games, I try and make them. I reckon the bickering is a hangover from all those psychotic fights (ever seen 2 brothers fighting?), like the rivalry never goes away, just changes form - but we definately need it. At the end of the day we look out for each other, if there's anything he needs and I can give him, it's his (and vice versa). Of course he's sensible enough to leave my woman alone .


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 14:26
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"bloody IIRC because i havn't a clue what it means"

It means "If I Recall Correctly". When I first saw it, it took me 10 seconds on Google to look it up.

Just because I am still in school Raven doesn't mean that I am naive or stupid.

"or how would you know that you think an attitude of competition actually pushes people to do better?"

Again, just because I am in school doesn't mean I don't have experience of these things. Sure competition can produce good results from SOME people, but game making is a hobby, not a job. In a lot of my work I have used help from Blitzers, there is no point in me treating them like rivals, I will never be able to learn from them. I find that competition just means that you slog whatever GFX you can onto the screen and to hell with the game - all the best Blitz games were produced with quite a bit of input / comment from the community, not in the various compos that occassionally run there. Maybe you find that competition is the only way to get you off your lazy ass and doing some work, others like myself, find that co-operation back and forth with other like minded people, like B3D users, produces a far more rewarding and better end result.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 16:19
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Rob this point hasn't just missed you, but its flown past as some speed hasn't it.
Just because most here are doing this as a hobby, it doesn't mean alot aren't here to actually use it as a stepping stone to learn the lessons they'll use to go onto doing this on a more financial level.
Also sure you can take lessons of programming in another language, but at the end of the day you're not using that language to actually achieve those results are you?

I could be wrong but from my recollection there are NO titles which use DarkBasic and BlitzBasic to achieve the results they want.
No you're converting code from language to another.

But that happens in all aspect of programming... if there is something in Delphi you want to do in Visual Basic, you learn Delphi enough to understand how it works and ask users how to impliment it so you can recreate it. That doesn't mean that your not rivals trying to make better programs than each other.

You can have 2 companies for example we'll use the games
Medal of Honour: Allied Assault & Return to Castle Wolfenstein

they're both developed with the Quake3 Engine, both companies are actually well known to be close with each other - they both shared alot of technology during development because of that friendship...
but at the end of the day they are working on Directly Competiting titles and no matter how much they're friends they pushed themselves to get the best out of the same technology and make the best games they could.

ironically Battlefield 1942 from a small relatively unknown company actually stole the lime light and beat both, but there is no hard feelings ... it was just about getting the best out of what is available.
This not only benifits the developers skills to learn new skills, but it also would show a good light on the language & engine used as well giving the actual gamer the best game because that rivalry pushs people to create things that you'd never have even though of before. Give you new abilities that make you think "hmm" or change the gameplay entirely introduced as a gimmic to make it better but in the end actually turning out to make the game what it is and making it stand apart from the crowd.

Only the best and most true innovation comes from competition, it doesn't have to be malicious in anyway - its just about achieving better than what you could before.
any i can give you a list of current games programmers as long as my arm that would agree entirely with me that it is only really the fans that get all bent out of shape about which title is better, like Quake3 vs Unreal Tournament ... you think Epic and id Software also hold these grudges?
They don't care as they're just working towards the best experience they can give the game giving them thier own spin on the same game.

are you begining to understand yet?

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Siege Delux
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 16:45
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"or how would you know that you think an attitude of competition actually pushes people to do better?"

You are wrong, you give the people who made a game the impression that there game sucks. I am with Rob K, you should work on ur atetude!

No offence!

Dreaming Tree Games
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 18:38
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i don't think my comments on DB Games within the DB Community has a valid point here ... that aside your welcome as is anyone else to prove the points i make about thier are wrong.

it isn't my attitude which is bad, just the way i choose to word things - i oftenly have alot to say and it is always brutally honest, if i took the time to sit down and think about making things prissy and nice for all the posts i answer i'd be here for hours rather than seconds.
i'm not gonna waste me whole day on answering one or two posts just to seem like a nice guy ... i don't have the time or inclination

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 20:31
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We will continue back with the Amazing Adventure of Blitz3D vs DarkBasic after some words from our sponsors..

...

...

...

...

... and now back to our show!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Puffy
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 10:46
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o_O I eat monkey flesh...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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empty
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:27
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Now what will be the next world dominating religion?

Well, to be honest, there are a lot of things that I don't like- in DBC, DBpro AND in Blitz3D, Blitz+.

Looks like I'm gonna be non-believer.

Ogres have layers.
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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:40 Edited at: 23rd May 2003 21:41
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"Just because most here are doing this as a hobby, it doesn't mean alot aren't here to actually use it as a stepping stone to learn the lessons they'll use to go onto doing this on a more financial level"

I didn't miss your point at all Raven.

Most people do this for a hobby and they want to ENJOY it, that is what hobbies are for. If it was like a commercial game making environment, it wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of fun.

As for learning lessons for when you do things on a financial level, most of us need to learn SKILLS now, which means co-operation. What is the point in "learning" / "practicing" rivallry? - I don't need to "learn" that. That is something I can learn about in my economics class. We are COMMUNITIES not COMPANIES. I can understand one game making company competing against another, but that is not what communities do, after all, neither community is working on titles where everybody participates. When people do develop games with DB / B3D, we are doing it for ourselves, not for the community. The only people who benefit from a language having a better game to its name are the developers of said language, ie. Blitz Research and DBS.

At the end of the day, there is no point comparing DB to a commercial environment, it isn't. People wish to make games at their own pace and learn from it. Learning lessons in terms of business strategy for later life is not the primary reason why most people are part of this community, learning about making games is the foremost priority, and that is best achieved via co-operation and not rivalry.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 23:14
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I aggree with Maniac, everyone wants to justify their purchase and they time investment.

I'll tell you why I bought DBP and not Blitz.. Simply because DBP has a much better website, and forums were nicer.

I see the Website / Forums as a direct reflection on the quality of the product. If you see a very active, "fresh" looking website, that looks up to date and cutting edge, you can only assume that the software will be supported and be kept cutting edge too. The Blitz looks like throwback to the early 1992 websites. (for those who don't know... 1992 is the year that HTTP was adopted as an internet protocol) This didn't make me feel to good about wher the project was going.

I think the majority is in the same category as I am, maybe subconciously, but they are. That's why so much money is spent on packaging. For those of us who bought online and didn't get to look at a box, the website is the package.
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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 23:54
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Ultimately I think that BoB's reasons apply to many people.

Registered only access to the forums is a real turn off for some people.

On the Blitz page, there is a great deal of useful info, but the boring front page which looks less visually exciting than my Psion 5mx (a greyscale 31mhz handheld), and has bullshit like "Cult of Productivity" is hardly a turn on. If Blitz had DBS' marketing skills and Rich as a webhost, they would be rolling it in.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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AlecM
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Posted: 24th May 2003 06:19
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rob cummings/redflame/bloodlocust:
the instability of DBP has been grosley exgerated. I think this is moslty because of people who are unwilling to consider work arounds or the fact that it might be there own crappy code.

oh ya, I still have that awsome Draco enviroment mapping demo on my HD

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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AlecM
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Posted: 24th May 2003 06:19
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rob cummings/redflame/bloodlocust:
the instability of DBP has been grosley exagerated. I think this is moslty because of people who are unwilling to consider work arounds or the fact that it might be there own crappy code.

oh ya, I still have that awsome Draco enviroment mapping demo on my HD

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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Rob K
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Posted: 24th May 2003 14:27
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How did you manage to doublepost? Apollo normally stops that.

Good point re stability though. Still, "certain" B3Ders are just fanboys, like the one who said "[DBPro's] IDE is a cluttered mess." if you think that B3D's editor is better than DBP's then you are talking out of your posterior.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Van B
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Posted: 24th May 2003 19:35
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It's the whole 'Mark Sibly is god' thing I find a little disturbing.

And the way they compare Lee and Mark like they're prize fighters is just imature, honestly - this whole thread is like a playground argument from the C64 v Speccy days.


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th May 2003 19:53
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hmm... wonder who would win in a fight between the guys... i reckon Lee is pretty quick - but Mark has all that power he can put behind his punches (^_^)

hehee, though Mark as a god. think i find that slightly disturbing too ... personally i think both Mark and Lee are just winging it as they go, they're both good programmers but your questions get outside the boundries of what they've been learning and they're about as useful as a goldfish playing a memory game.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Rob K
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Posted: 24th May 2003 21:19
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Lee does jujitsu, Mark, to my knowledge, does not.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th May 2003 21:33
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lol... as i said, Lee would be fast - but Mark does have alot of brute power, not something you'd want to underestimate when combined with a temper

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Rob K
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Posted: 24th May 2003 21:44
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"Lee would be fast - but Mark does have alot of brute power"

Why do you say that?

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th May 2003 22:49
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(^_^) cause if memory serves me right Mark i built like a brick outhouse.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 26th May 2003 06:29
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You know, all the officials say that it is too subjective.. Neither is better, you're not allowed to say one is the best etc(Well, it's frowned upon)

Yet in glorious black and white on the front page.

"-Now we're back with the most awesome language the PC market has ever seen -"

This place it seems, is not without a sense of irony...

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Arrow
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Posted: 26th May 2003 06:42
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So now you are supposed to take everything advertised sereously?

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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haggisman
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Posted: 26th May 2003 12:58
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Quote: "As for those tests, I wrote the counter-prog in Blitz (Spinning sprites etc) and it ran a lot faster than DBpro. Remember Guy(Your mod) even had to admit defeat on this. (That was quite a sweet moment.

Then Snarty wrote a prog that was identical, yet had full mip-mapping(I.e sprites look smooth regardless of angle) and it ran just a bit faster than the DBP demo.(Which never had mip-mapping, and as a result have pretty dire looking sprites.)

Just the facts mam."


How about these facts, i did a tests on these programs to find out which was faster when they came out last year, i even posted a graph up. Not only that but i even compared image quality. Funnily enough DBpro was still the winner. I even just downloaded both demos this morning.

With 200 Sprites
DBpro FPS:- 170
B3D(snartys) FPS:- 80

Thats over 90FPS difference!

project: light/obscurance mapper (80% done)
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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 26th May 2003 13:45
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From what Ive read

DBPRo = Directx 8.1 soon to be 9.0(hopefully)
Blitz3d = Directx 7 and I don't know its future

Ive made my choice and I'll stick with it, even though I should be more patriotic(I understand Blitz started on the Amiga back here in New Zealand) and didn't DB start as AMOS on the Amiga?

Correct me if Im wrong, but I swore I read it somewhere years and years ago. And from memory the above statements with both programmes origins seems to be correct cos I used to program in both(and I'm still no better)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:07
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Quote: "Then Snarty wrote a prog that was identical, yet had full mip-mapping(I.e sprites look smooth regardless of angle) and it ran just a bit faster than the DBP demo.(Which never had mip-mapping, and as a result have pretty dire looking sprites.)"


firstly you mean the demo which doesn't have the properly setup pipeline? the pipeline which is slower because rather than converting everything to a singular format they're all being as seperate entities? you'll have to pit 1.04.x against Blitz to have a real feedback on this speed. as for having MipMapping turned off that'd be a neat trick not having MipMap in DarkBasic Pro, as i can tell you it is currently impossible to turn it off - and i don't mean very hard ... i mean IMPOSSIBLE
there is no command in DBP to turn it off and there is no way to do it though the DirectX APi not even 9.0 - as default it is set to a linear lookup.

yup both languages are late 80's Basic based languages for the Amiga Personal Computers.
AMOS developed in france and based on STOS by some guy i don't remember the name of right now Francias something or other i think.
BlitzBasic (later BlitzBasic2 to compete against AMOS Pro)
the origins of both languages though are very true to what they were, i mean a DB coder could probably pickup Amos and although would need to learn a few new things essentially is the same and blitz you can literally use word for word on the Amiga

but that aside i don't think it matter what we say about each language because at the end of the day it is the userbase which really makes the atomsphere of the language.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:57
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Blitz Basic on the Amiga was very, very bugged...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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