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3 Dimensional Chat / Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 21:08
Rob - yeah, absolutely right, it's used all over the place. Band of Brothers for example (I refer to it because I know a lot about the work that went on it and it was such an awesome series!) - the entire series has a slight sepia tint overtone to it. Every single frame. You'd hardly notice it unless you looked carefully. Also face-mapping is very common. Did you know that Sean Connery will NOT do any action role in a film - the most he'll do is walk. If you ever see him doing anything more (running, jumping, etc) it's always a double. In the past he used to, but no more In Entrapment his face was digitally mapped onto a double for the majority of the film. You'd never know it

"for a guy in your mid-20s, you've been around quite a bit eh?"

Before joining DBS full-time I ran my own company with some other guys. We did an awful lot of advanced development work and Aardman were our biggest client. We spent a lot of time there, got to know a lot of people well. Ended up building their entire intranet, extranet (with full XML web services interface to their intranet), most the code on their sites, media distribution site (allows press companies to download private movie clips, etc), even the software they use to schedule productions for the next 10 years we wrote, so yeah I have a good idea how a film company works They have a very large CG department and film is big around here, a lot of conferences/talks from the likes of Cinemagic, etc. I don't make idle claims about something I'm passionate about

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 21:56
There is a Washington Division of EA Games (EA Northridge), who are currently using DarkBasic Professional for a game thier working on for the X-Box (Osmosis Jones or something like that) a kids platformer style game anyways.

i think thats a pretty professional title - there are other companies i've heard of which are also using Professional for making or atleast designing titles professionally ... but for the life of me i've never heard of Blitz3D being used professionally for a title.
I can list you a number of pro's who use it as a hobby, but none which use it professionally.
Sometimes i feel the Blitz Community can't seem to tell the difference between Proffesional using it as a Hobby and a Company using it in a Proffesional Capacity.

gonna completely agree with what Rich has said about CG. there isn't only the problem between what is real and what is fake ... however it is also the fact that most don't even have a clue what CG is even used for. Remember this covers and entire plethera of touch ups to films and tv series, it isn't just the 3D aspect but 2D aspects as well.

a good example of CG at its best is probably within Star Wars Episode 1 - why? Becuase how many here knew and could tell the ENTIRE palace with the exception of the furniture was CG?
and i don't mean, that the Background and just the Droid gaurds etc... the hallways, the rooms EVERYTHING.
the same goes for Harry Potter, alot of Hogwarts was CG ... many of the paintings were added later with overlays.
there are quite a few films that have been touched up with advanced graphics that i doubt many would realise.

if anyone here believe's that they can spot CG a mile away, Alias|Wavefront currently have a challenge on thier site ... most CG Engineers get 8-9, most people get around 5-6 right.
it is getting harder and harder to tell, i failed on 1 and got 9 because i thought it was fake but it wasn't (it was how the light was being reflected just seemed fake)

as for OpenGL, for games it is dieing out - whether you want to admit it or not... it is only a handful of development houses which still take it as a serious option. Even John Carmack recently though has said when Doom3 is finished idsoftware will be moving onto DirectX. Simply because the pure time it takes to develop in it is excrusiatingly long to make it compatible enough for it to be worth it.
and with the speed difference now negliable unless you have a specific OpenGL card - and Windows now being the normal (DirectX howver is now spreading onto all of the platforms though) ... really the day of OpenGL in games is as good as dead.
the only hope is is OpenGL 2.0 actually brings DirectX's Abstract Layering to the table - make it more generic. I think then it will have a chance of getting back in the game again. But as SGI are in this for giving the most powerful graphics solution to the 3D Packages and not for it to be the best Game solution i wouldn't count on it.

The only thing i truely love about OpenGL over DirectX, is actually the latency - DirectX's COM routes (which Microsoft have promised will be out with the 9.1 rewrite) basically means that you can get smoother results on OpenGL at lower FPS.
Anyone who's player Quake3 on an older system at 15fps will agree, you try a game at 15fps and it will be jerky in DirectX - but on OpenGL its smooth a Rum

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:24
Actually Raven, I disagree about SW ep.1, I visited a display of the production models and artwork, and a surprising amount was made in the classic fashion. For example, the stadium in the pod racer scene, it was made from wood, about 5 feet cubed, had little painted men (like tiny toy soldiers). The crowd was made from painted cotton buds (cue tips). They obviously use computers heavily, because the earlier SW models were amazingly detailed in comparison. They had a full size pod racer too, the engine is really just bits of scrap nailed onto a wooden frame, it did look great though. R2D2 looked like he'd been painted using a dead pigeon.

You know, even after all the CG and editing - the movie is processed onto film with comparatively ancient technology. It's projected directly onto the film using an LCD projector.


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:28
Ancient but reliable I'll bet. You don't have to use digital CG for the sake of it.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:59
yeah i know... but the entire palace was CG, they were walking around against blue screens with minimal of props.
but its just like in Goldeneye - Pierce only slides down about 3foot of sat dish, the rest is CG done and edited
i mean interesting because i doubt many people thought much if any CG was put into films like that.

PureBasic i forgot to post the addy last time

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Rob K
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Posted: 15th May 2003 23:05
"Pierce only slides down about 3foot of sat dish,"

He still managed to injure his back, IIRC.

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Squashy
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Posted: 16th May 2003 05:58
All this talk about the joys of digital compositing and tinting and the like is way, way off... the point was about cg models wholly replacing other methods of creating images and that this is undesirable. Aardman understand this as well as anybody. It's true that cg is advancing all the time, but then so are other techniques - check out the animatronics used in Hannibal for eg.

Sure, sometimes you can't spot the cg. But usually, this is when it involves some photographic element. So often, even in expensive films, the pure CG sequences just comes across looking cheap. And it dates more quickly. 5 year old cg effects don't look half as good as the 35-year old effects in 2001: A Space Oddysey. Yep, CG a powerful tool when used properly. But it looks terrible when its overused. George Lucas is a perfect example of someone who's gone CG-stupid.

But really, what I was talking about is the snobbery of exclusively favouring cg in videogames. Sure it has some major advantages. But don't be so quick to write of drawing, photography and the like as being retro...

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 06:47
actually CG is a powerful tool in those who know howto make it work... perhaps on its own you could argue it looks terrible.

but Final Fantasy: The Spirits within is 100% Cg, and quite frankly one of THE most realistic representations that has come and will come for a very long time.

i'm not saying total Cg is the way - because actually any artist understands that it is the composition of the effects and the blend which actually makes the truely awesome effects, but the fact of the matter does boil down to the actual skill of the artist.

unfortunately the products available todate do so much for the artist, that right now it is less about skill and more about being able to click the right buttons.
even with all of these fancy tools Cinematic Graphics Effects can still only be truely achieved in the capacity that the everyday man will truely believe if you have some BLOODY good artists in the first place.

Lord of the Rings is probably the best example of this, as they used so many old techniques as well as alot of the new Cg techniques - but in the end ... what made it look real was the fact of what everything boils down to - and thats the artistic talent that was used to make light dirty, place it right withing the scene, use the camera tracking to its best effect, blend 2-3 takes of the same scene and composite between the CG, the effect and the actors.
and you don't need a blue screen to achieve that.

Look at Nightcrawler from Xmen2, oki so you know that isn't real ... but it is hard to tell when he is and isn't actually there and it does looks pretty realistic even the way they've then overlayed lights on models of the pople in the scene which then smoke then diffuses on them and shaded them with the alpha layer - tell me how many people would've thought of that?

i can tell you know not many of the CG artists today within the movie industry can tell you howto achieve affects without plugins, that will eventually be the downfall of CG i believe - and even moreover i think that'll probably finally screen the artists from those trying to make from the sucess and quick growth of this section of the industry.

will Cg in computer games take over? YES, but that is because Shaders are actually just specially developed assembly programs which run exclusively on the Graphics Processor ... essentially it is seperating the effects from the background game.
You want Ai, fine use the CPU and C you want to do Skeletal animation then you use Cg and the GPU
the idea is to actually speed up the access and setup between the Art of the games and the actual play of the games.
that is why they'll take over.

however i'm sure most believe that Cg & Shaders are just purely about the graphical effects like Toon Shading or something

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 16th May 2003 07:31
Animatrix rockz! (just watched all 4 series from the site!)
Can't wait for all 9 of em to come out this June!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Squashy
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Posted: 16th May 2003 11:19 Edited at: 16th May 2003 11:21
Er... but I already gave you one example of someone who is making their living writing blitz games. Although there are others. Unless you are talking about some other mysterious definition of "professional"

If it's true about the Xbox game, that's quite a coup. Not that a DB game will run on xbox - of course it should do, you could get blitz running on xbox too, except that microsoft has already said, "no, we prohibit it". You know what those guys are like... so I'll believe it when I see it; I did a net search and it turned up nothing.

Still I'd love to hear what you guys reckon are the best DB games either finished or in progress; I really would like to check them out, since I am actually not anti-DB developers in any way, I just haven't seen any good games yet. (Not many in blitz either! Heck, not many anywhere... it's no easy task)

Oh, and I agree with a lot of what Raven said - the best stuff is created when different techniques are used in combination... for example the great photogrammetry stuff in fight club - photogrammetry is a technique that would never have been conceived by someone in a "pure" cg mindset. Even though it uses 3d rendering, it is still strongly tied in with photography. And that stuff in the matrix everyone likes so much, made with a long chain of still cameras firing in quick succesion, smoothed out with frame blending software, and given a background which was basically a stitched together skybox. With CG bullets. And it looks much better than pure cg.

Now, I'd like to see more of this kind of fusion in videogames, rather than a total cg focus. Cg has the advantage of giving you total freedom; that's why it's good for games, and that is why film directors who like to whoosh the camera around like a mad seagull love it so much. But you don't always need total freedom, and sometimes too much freedom makes people go a little crazy (the over-the-top whooshy camera again)... Now, let's take for example a game like Crash Bandicoot, where the camera is basically on a fixed track. Instead of using CG for the background, you could actually build a set, track the camera along it and make the footage into a file that plays off the dvd, and can be played in forward or reverse or paused whenever necessary, etc. Throw all your cg processing into getting the characters to meld into the scene as realistically as possible. Crazy? Maybe. Harder to do? Sure - since you'd actually have to find new techniques to make stuff work. Masking would be tricky. But would your game stand out from the crowd? I reckon so. Creating illusions for sfx is like being a magician - if you come at it from a different angle, you can come up with tricks that make people say, "Amazing! - How did they do that?"... but if you just keep pulling the same rabbit out of the same hat, people will eventually lose interest. How many graphic designers would be so cheesy as to put a photoshop lensflare in their work these days, to "flash it up a bit"? You'd be laughed out of town if you did.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th May 2003 15:50
"but I already gave you one example of someone who is making their living writing blitz games. Although there are others. Unless you are talking about some other mysterious definition of "professional""

Commercial was the word we were discussing, not "used by professionals". I don't want peoples names, I want game titles - that's all I've ever wanted someone to list!

"Not that a DB game will run on xbox"

Of course not, I never implied it would. I said they use it for proto-typing in-house, and yes it's for real.

"kind of fusion in videogames, rather than a total cg focus"

Considering what cg stands for - isn't that impossible?

Your "build a set" idea is just what true 3D games do anyway. The more powerful the cards get, the more realistic the "sets" will look and before long there will be very little difference between what was previously static rendered images and what's in true 3D. I'd much rather see this happen than "on the rails" interactive-movie style fx.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 15:53
@Squashy

What you suggested in the final paragraph has already been tried - it produced the most godawful games known to man (as I am sure you know). Sigh.

Anyhow, its nice that we have been able to have a discussion without a single "8175 15 F0R 5UX0R5! D8PR0 R0CK5" or vice versa comment yet. Phew!

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Van B
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Posted: 16th May 2003 16:00
Yeah, Blitzcoder is back, so they'll be arguing amongst themselves instead of with us now .


Van-B
P.S. Thanks for the link Raven, damn scary implimentation of BASIC, but it can make .dll's and it's only about £30 - better than trying to learn C++!

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:10
Rich,

http://www.idigicon.com/rdetails.asp?id=Maxx < 25 games wrote in Blitz. Metal looks the most impressive.(By Halo, guy who wrote C-shop)

http://www.idigicon.com/rdetails.asp?id=Kool%20Dog < 17 more games.


Binary people http://www.binary-people.com/cgi-bin/nav.cgi?np=news < An independent company that publish Blitz games exclusively..

I could go on... (You asked me to cough up. I fail to see what this proves to be honest with you... but there you go )

Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:22
@Antony

Thanks. Looking at those games however, I haven't seen anything which could not be done in DBPro (in the same way that I haven't seen much done with DBP that couldn't be done with Blitz).

I think that the reason that Blitz3D has more commercial games is that many people left either DIV or DBClassic with several years of experience when Blitz came out, and have stayed with B3D ever since.

I took a look at Metal, and it certainly looks nice, however, it clearly looks like a 1998 game, and it certainly doesn't push Blitz3D. With DBP, you could easily add effects like shadows, bump mapping and cube mapping, especially in the space scene.

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Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:30
In addition BTW, I read that Halo's next project, Singularity was abandoned. One of the reasons (according to a few posts I read on the Blitz boards) was that the extention DLLs he had to use to expand the functionality and graphics of the game caused crashes left, right and center.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:43
I agree that Blitz is in need of a new 3d Engine. But blitzMax will have one.(OpenGL Based) and mark would have to be criminally insane not to make full use of the current hardware out there. I simply won't buy it if it doesn't.

Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 19:19
As Blitz2DBPro said earlier though, Mark is a conservative type of guy, so he will probably stick with the "safer" but less feature-full OpenGL 1.2 or 1.4 standards, rather than OpenGL 2. Still, that will allow for a pretty fully featured engine.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 20:46
As long as it offers Per-pixel lighting and bump-mapping(Combined they look amazing. (On my g4 4600 anyway..)
I know it's all eye-candy, but it doesn't have to be... Atmosphere is JUST as important as gameplay. Without it, you're left with a fun but ultimately souless experince...

Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:21
Well look at Counter-Strike and Natural Selection, they use a very out-of date engine, with no support for reflections, proper shadows, bump-mapping, shaders, detail textures etc. ... Yet they are probably the most popular PC games in existence.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:25
Ah, yes, but please play Raven Shield, then try and play Counter-strike. Once you've felt the thrill of walking down dimly lit prison hall-walls, using pixel-shaded assisted IR-googles, well.. There really is no going back. (At least not for me. Everyone has a unique view on life. )

Natural Selection? Never heard of it. Got a url or a link to a demo?

Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:28
WHAT! - You haven't heard of Natural Selection? Where HAVE you been?
http://www.natural-selection.org

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:33
Living with the girl of my dreams for the past four months? Beats coding!

Cheers for the link, will have to check it out.

APEXnow
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Jeez, I've just seen some screen shots for HalfLife-2, They look absolutely gorgeous. I can't wait till the release. Having played the original, Opposing Force and BlueShift, HL2 is gonna be awesome.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 23:05
"Living with the girl of my dreams for the past four months? Beats coding! "

Good on you. Can't argue with that

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 23:25
well to everything else

and for van (^_^) its a cool little language albeit a little odd, i've tried to get the DLLs working in DBpro .. and i can call them with load DLL but not natively, something i was trying to work on but the layout eventually got to me.
it just feels like using qBasic but with advanced features, which just seems creepy to me lol

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Squashy
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Posted: 17th May 2003 12:08
Ummm... there was what was thought to be a full list of commercial blitz games compiled last year some time, but who knows what happened to that... I tried to find it but it seemed to have disappeared. Anyway it was a long list. Commercial is actually much easier find examples of than professional. There are only a few people I know of who are actually making a full time living coding games in blitz, but there's stacks of people turning a profit of some kind. But that's not of great relevance to me - many profitable games are rubbish, anyway. What I was asking for is much trickier - examples of darkbasic games I can play demos of, whetehr finished or in progress, that you reckon are actually good games. Not to use as amunition for any kind of childish "language war"... but because I genuinely wanted to know what developers kicking around here are making interesting stuff.

Quote: "
"Not that a DB game will run on xbox"

Of course not, I never implied it would. I said they use it for proto-typing in-house, and yes it's for real.
"


No, I meant there wasn't any real reason why it wouldn't run on xbox except for the fact that microsoft won't allow it. So it's just prototyping? Okay. Although I thought that, according to you, prototyping didn't count for anything. But now we're getting into the silly language war stuff again and I'm not interested in THAT.

"kind of fusion in videogames, rather than a total cg focus"


Quote: "
Considering what cg stands for - isn't that impossible?
"


Only if you're going to be silly about it. Or there's some other term you'd prefer to use instead.

Quote: "
Your "build a set" idea is just what true 3D games do anyway. The more powerful the cards get, the more realistic the "sets" will look and before long there will be very little difference between what was previously static rendered images and what's in true 3D. I'd much rather see this happen than "on the rails" interactive-movie style fx.
"


All right. Well that was just one example I threw out, but even so...
no, that isn't what 3d cards do. No, it won't look the same. In future, real time 3d will just look more like static rendered 3d looks now. It won't look real, just like the stuff on Alias/Wavefront's site "Fake or Foto" quizz didn't look anything like real stuff. (Although they were clever - some of the photos they chose looked a lot like CG). All right, maybe, if you get the very very best artists, spend a LOT of money, and stick to the stuff that CG does well, it will sometimes approach real... but it's not just about real, anyway. It's about ANYTHING that doesn't look like the typical CG look. If you build a model set, it wouldn't look real. But it WOULD look like you build a real model. As opposed to a computer model. That has a charm all its own - why do you think Aardman DON'T do everything in CG (even though they have to deal with idiots asking them that very question all the time).

Anyway, don't worry, 'cause you WILL see better CG happen. That's never been in dispute. What concens me is that it will be at the expense of every other style... and a certain degree of creativity, lateral thinking, and artistry is being lost beneath all the bland freedom of cg. But actually, I intend to make sure there is at least one person exploring unconventional or neglected rendering methods in videogames - me. There's no point in me trying to convince you of anything - it makes no difference. You'll see it when I've done it, and you can decide for yourself. Similarly, I don't think other film directors are really going to try to convince George Lucas he's lost the plot. They'll just ignore him and get on with the job. Just as when George, when touring the huge set built for Gangs of New York, said to Martin Scorsese, "You know, you can do all of this with computers now". I imagine Martin Scorsese smiled politely, and then completely ignored the suggestion.

But I will say, you seem to have missed my point about the on-the-rails camera - Crash Bandicoot was a 3d rendered game; they didn't need to use an on-the-rails camera - they chose one because they actually wanted one. Similar for other games, like virtua cop, for eg. Point being - it's not always necessary for a game to offer a full 3 dimentions of freedom for the camera. And if that is the case, then that opens up the possibility for doing all sorts of other stuff - tapping into painting, drawing, sculpture, photography, stop-motion animation etc etc. It would be great seeing more people from other disciplines getting involved in game graphics rather than just CG guys - many of whom are more technicians than artists anyway... and it shows.

Quote: "
What you suggested in the final paragraph has already been tried - it produced the most godawful games known to man (as I am sure you know). Sigh.
"


Yes it did. But the technology 20 years ago simply wasn't up to the task, seek times were way too long, you had no flexibility in peicing together sequences, or pausing, playing forwards and backwards, proper compositing of different images... And it wasn't very creatively applied either - it wasn't really a fusion of different techniques; it was just a single gimmick pretending to be a game. Richard Dyer was planning to make a game that used 2 laser discs simultaneously - if he had've done, I think it MIGHT have been the beginnings of something potentially interesting, but the technology was simply too expensive. Still it did make people sit up and take notice, even though they couldn't produce the substance to back up the style. On the other hand, when the concept was later revived in a new form, we got Myst - not everyone's cup of tea, but it certainly got people's attention, due to taking a graphical approach that, at the time, was unprecedented, and really wowed people, even though those in the know knew itwasn't doing anything too tricky at all. And still, that wasn't a real fusion. A better example would be the way that Abe's Oddysee used FMV to do transition effects... they were pretty cool, but such things could be taken much further still. And of course, Myst and Abe's Oddysee were still generating their images from CG, which as we know, we will be able to do in realtime soon enough. If it were me, I would focus on stuff that gives a DIFFERENT look, not simply the same look, but on 10-years-in-the-future hardware. But once again, that WAS enough to get people to go "wow!"...

Anyway, that's just the start of it. I could go on and on about different ideas I have for creating unconventional visuals, but there's not much point unless anyone was actually really interested. And I think most people (specifically in the videogame scene) aren't. That's okay. People generally get more interested once they see the results.

Rob K
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Posted: 17th May 2003 12:55
@squashy

I can certainly name a few commercial games made in DB, (check the DarkBasic.com gallery).

However the trouble with most of these is that often you never even HEAR of a commercial DB game until a few weeks before release when we get to beta test it. So I couldn't say with any certainty what DBP games ARE in development.

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Squashy
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Posted: 17th May 2003 14:57
Yeah, I know there are commercial games out there. And I know what you mean about the surprise ones too... but which ones do you think are good? (I'll go have a look at the gallery too)

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Posted: 17th May 2003 15:29
Oh - I checked out this forum's gallery but as I guess you know it's just got some tech demos in it. Question - does the Darkbasic.com gallery have dbpro games or just db games? 'Cause as I say my computer doesn't seem to like db games. But dbpro stuff seemed to run fine, barring some minor graphics glitches in a couple of programs.

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Posted: 17th May 2003 16:56
Squashy are you trying to tell me that you could tell the difference between ANY real-life picture and CG picture you are given?
if you can then you have a better eye than myself, and i have a very accute artistic eye added with many many years experience knowing what can be achieved and the tell tale signs of each engines rendering - but even so there are some pictures i've seen over the years that have actually fooled me.

and somehow i find it bloody hard to believe that you could have a better eye than myself or any other CGr Engineer.

the way i see it quite frankly it all boils down to one single point, you sir are talking right out of your arse...
alot of your post was just bloated air, and i'd like to see a particularly valid argument here from you - because i don't think you even have a bloody ounze of a clue of what Cg and CG are all about.

and until you can make a valid argument and points about it rather than not really reading what is written but believeing you can just take point to small notions said, then i'd say sit down and shut up before someone does it for you.

... oh and a quick side note, all the pictures on the Alias|Wavefront site were taken within a day on a Kodak 35mm Camera - they just had a list of effects to capture and 8hours to do it in.
there was little thought put into it, even less preparation as for artist merit to make them look CG - is pretty pretty amusing you though they were.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Squashy
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Posted: 17th May 2003 21:36
Wow what an incredible bit of flaming. Touchy touchy. I guess there's no point in trying to discuss things rationally with you... since you don't seem to have a bloody "ounze" of a clue yourself, and reading your post, I don't detect any valid points from you except "I'm an expert and you don't know anything so shut up."

Yes of course I could spot the CG. Honestly, couldn't you? Did that look anything like a photo of a nose? Or a photo of dew on grass? Or a real fork and spoon? You know it actually didn't, mister expert-cg-engineer-baselessly-assuming-I-no-not-of-which-I-speak. It looked like CG. Anyone could see that. Which, in itself, is fine. But it's not the only way to generate an image, you know - or necessarily the best, in any given situation, which was the point I was trying to make. What is with you anyway? Is CG your religion or something? Can you not even bear to consider other techniques? This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. I was trying to have a simple discussion about the merits of mixing media, and trying out different things. You seem to have taken personal offense for some reason. I can only assume that this is because you are a closed-minded cretin.

Quote: "
... oh and a quick side note, all the pictures on the Alias|Wavefront site were taken within a day on a Kodak 35mm Camera - they just had a list of effects to capture and 8hours to do it in.
there was little thought put into it, even less preparation as for artist merit to make them look CG - is pretty pretty amusing you though they were.
"


You cite irrelevant facts like "Kodak 35mm camera" to try to create an impression of being authoritative... yet the simple fact remains that some of those photos were the type of images that CAN be effectively created in a 3d modeller. Any reasonable person would concede this. If I took a photo of, for example, a pile of shiny ball-bearings, with no other background detail, and asked you to say if it was CG or not, of course, it would be a tough call. You on the other hand seem to be trying to argue that this was a mere coincidence. Seems a little far-fetched to me.

Anyway as I say there's clearly no point discussing it with the likes of you. I could bring up enough valid points of discussion to fill a book, and you would still remain obstinately closed to any of it. You're not prepared to consider an alternate point of view from me because you have no respect for me. It's okay though because the feeling is mutual.


- I say this with sincerest apologies to all the people who actually seem capable of a reasonable and civil discussion, even in disagreement, like Rob K. I'd still love to hear about any DB games you reckon are worth checking out.

Rob K
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Posted: 17th May 2003 22:37 Edited at: 17th May 2003 22:38
Commercial Games Made in DB, which I have played and enjoyed:

DBC - Tito The Alien (Simple Puzzler, but great fun, still looking for a publisher)

DBC - StarWraith 3 (Fairly bog standard in terms of design, but great fun and with good multiplayer)

DBC - Virtual Insanity (Puzzle game, great fun, can drive you nuts though)

DBP - The Magic Land (Not yet finished, but there are demos available, pretty good role playing game in the Pea-Guy universe, will be published by Astral Entertainment)

I looked at most of the Blitz games on sale, and most of them are 2D. This highlights in my view, the biggest problem which Blitz and DBP developers face. Both software packages can make very good 3D games, however, 3D games are very hard to develop and take a hell of a long time to create - so there are very few commercial 3D titles available created in either language. Also, the lists that were posted haven't changed much in recent times.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Rob K
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Posted: 17th May 2003 22:41
@squashy

With DarkBASIC Classic, there are still quite a few issues with some graphics drivers. In Windows XP, if you use an NVidia or ATI card, you MUST update the drivers to the latest detonator version. With the Windows XP supplied drivers, DBC apps crashed about once every 5 minutes.

I believe that the DarkBASIC site will take DBP apps eventually, but at the moment, most commercial games are still DBC as they started development before DBP arrived and certainly before DBP became stable enough to use.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Rob K
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Posted: 17th May 2003 22:53
@squashy

As for being able to tell CG vs. non CG, it depends on what the CG has been used for. You would obviously be able to tell a CG person from a real human, but as Rich said earlier, a lot of the less central changes, such as the sky or in Star Wars Episode 1, all the scenery for the final battle, look incredibly realistic.

There IS a lot of difference between CG and non-CG though, I think there is a good explanation for why I and others find it hard to see though. We are extremely familiar with what a human face looks like, and can look for thousands of minute details in a single glance. However, with scenery and so on, we only have to recognise it, not be able to tell accurately if it is genuine or not. That is why it is much easier to make CG animals, we have far less detailed information about them in our minds. Hence, a fairly crappy CG scene artist could make something convincing, but even the most talented team of artists could never make a human indistinguishable from the real thing.

Still, in terms of games, I don't think that realism is the ultimate goal, the whole point of games is that it is a form of escapism from reality. Therefore any art styles or methods which make that escapism into a different world plausible are welcomed. The only stipulation is that the whole world must fit together.

The trouble with pre-filmed / photographed sets is that you cannot use photography for everything, so there will always be aspects of the game which are "out of place". If you use CG though, it is possible to make everything fit together, which allows for a more thorough immersion in the world. A good example is Zelda: TWW, where cel-shading allowed for a more flowing, consistent style than would be possible with anything else. The technology for photography has certainly moved on, but I am not convinced that it is yet good enough to make a game with.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Posted: 18th May 2003 09:18
so Squashy i take it on that test you got 11/10 right?
you correctly identified ALL 11 pictures placed on the site between CG and Real?
if you say you did i can tell you now i'll know your bulling because as of yet NOONE has (Alias|Wavefront are keeping track)

you want to get onto attitudes about things you seem to believe you're some kinda miricle man who can instantly tell the difference between CG and Reality - which if thats the case i take it throughout almost the whole LOTR:The Two Towers you could tell me at any given point what was real and what isn't?

quite frankly you keep spouting about being close minded to other ways of doing things, which is amusing in itself because what you appear to be preaching here is that CG is in essence bad because of how much it is used ... and overall bad because it is obviously fake.
i'm all for people using new and innovative tehcniques for movies, but at the end of the day when you know a way to create say a string of tornados which fall from the sky and maneouver a fantasy jet and 2 $15billion fighter jets through it and make it as real as using a composite CGr scene then i'm all ears.

as i've said at the end of the day the realism capable in CGr and using Cg for games is 100% upto the artist who is creating the media, for some reason you don't believe this.

you clearly have no idea, your saying the same stuff over and over and over again ... and quite frankly you've already made that your a liar but claiming you could spot all the CG from Alias|Wavefronts challenge - yet no one has got 11 (highest is 10)
as for how the pictures were setup, ofcourse some were just like nails on a piece of blue cardboard ... because if your trying to try to tell the difference between caustic & natural then its pretty simple if you see something which doesn't belong.
That said it is actually easier to tell the difference between Glass/Metal recreations than it is a natural organic which has been made right, the nost didn't looke real for a simple fact that there was no bump on it (but i'm sure you knew this right?) - it also wasn't shaped properly to contain a bone, nor were the nostrils shaped with depth that the GI engine would translate properly.

i still think you should sitdown and shutup because your quite obviously trying to fumble your arugment here, and your making an argument against CG and not a discussion.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Posted: 18th May 2003 10:41
Of course, DBPs' 3d engine is much more better than Blitz. BUT Blitz community has a lot of advanced coders and our has only few, because mostly DBP is choise of stupid beginners.
I like to visit Blitz site: it has the big and useful code base!

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
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Posted: 18th May 2003 11:52 Edited at: 18th May 2003 11:59
Rob K - thanks for those games, I'll definitely check them out, if I can track down the demos of course!

You raise valid points - particularly about the difficulties involved in creating a seamless illusion between different media. Ironically it is the improved quality of CG which, I think, makes such a useful bridge to fill in the gaps (when dealing with photographic sources, in particular) - especially photgrammetry techniques which I am quite keen to explore further, especially with regard to combining Cg and photographic footage, which, these days, can fairly easily be intergrated with CG due to advances in 3d motion-tracking software, allowing you to extrapolate the 3d motion path of a real camera and apply it to your CG objects in the scene (such as was used in the Stuart Little movies - apparently it was all done with point tracking, no motion-controlled camera rigs used). As you say, and I believe I was saying too, the most impressive illusions are created when different techniques are combined according to what they do best. CG is not a one-stop answer. But in combination with other effects, it is a terrific tool.

And I also thouroughly agree that achieving realism should not *necessarily* be the goal of the digital artist, and in fact I think all too many games are trying to go this way (yes, it is appropriate sometimes). The ability to create fantastical other realities that don't resemble the world outside my window is the whole reason I got into animation and special effects in the first place. The advances in computer technology make this an exciting time for all video artists. And the pure CG animation I have most enjoyed has not made any effort to disguse the fact that it was CG, but if anything, actually played up the characteristicly surreal effect...

Here's another idea - with 3d hardware, we now can easily apply tasty glitch-free rotation, edge-antialiasing, and sub pixel placement of sprites, which would make it simple to make a game in a perfect recreation of the cut-out paper stop-motion animation used by Terry Gilliam in Monty Python. Haven't seen it done yet!

Raven - nope, I'm not a liar. I correctly identified the CG as being such. But I got a couple of the photos wrong, thinking they could indeed have been acieved in CG, which I do suppose they could. I never claimed any different.

You are missing the point completely in thinking I'm fundamentally anti-cg. I'm not, and never said I was. I'm against people taking the attitude that it is the only good way of doing things. And I believe that in videogames especially, and in movie special effects in some cases, and even in print design - a little - the ease and flexibility of cg solutions has resulted in people being less open to experimentation with different methods, despite all the exciting new possibilities that are opening up in so many areas through the application of computer processing and other technological advances. This is not unexpected, being new technology... I mean they said photography would result in the death of painting, and that film would replace books - but it is a pity because, as I say, in many cases the CG is used inappropriately to create effects that would be better done other ways, but mostly in that it creates in some people's minds a certain snobbery, sneering at people that choose to experiment in other areas.

Here's a few more examples: stop motion animation can now easily have frame-blending and motion blur applied as a post-production computer effect, removing the slight strobey quality characteristic of stop motion animation, with extremely life-like results. CG might not be able to create a totally convincing human face, but advances in polymer technology means prosthetic artists and animatronics wizards can come much closer (check out the robotic Ray Liotta in Hannibal!). On the other hand, if realism is not your goal, you can leave in the strobey quality of a stop-motion animation, simply because you like the aesthetic effect it produces (Aardman don't make any attempt to hide the flaws and thumbprints in their plasticene animation; even though they could clean it up in post-production, they like letting the flaws (and the charm) of their process show.)

I'm not trying to dictate the way that anyone choses to work; but I certainly don't see the harm in discussing different techniques, and to that end have been patiently trying to discuss other viewpoints, even to the point of offering up concrete examples of ideas for other ways to do things, although I know that in doing so I'm only offering you ammunition to shoot me down. You on the other hand have contributed nothing but flames and insults, you are like a closed book.

Have I been repeating myself? - I didn't think so, but if I have it is only because it seemed to me that I didn't make my point clearly enough the first time, since you seem to have difficulty grasping the point of what I'm talking about - which may have been partly my fault.

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Posted: 18th May 2003 12:29
"Here's another idea - with 3d hardware, we now can easily apply tasty glitch-free rotation, edge-antialiasing, and sub pixel placement of sprites, which would make it simple to make a game in a perfect recreation of the cut-out paper stop-motion animation used by Terry Gilliam in Monty Python. Haven't seen it done yet!"

Certainly, that is possible, as long as you start with high quality images in the first place. The technique you mentioned has certainly been used with artist-drawn images, but as you suggested, I'd be interested to see it done with photography.

I took a look at the "Fake or Foto" challenge, 8/10, I was fooled by the two grass pictures.

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Posted: 18th May 2003 20:11
Hi,

I'm a Blitz3D user, somebody point out this thread, and I read it almost all...(puff pant!)

Is not my intention to open another 140 messages discussion, but...

Ok, my opinion is that, ok DBpro seems to have more features, and more speed (maybe it's true, I don't own DBpro, so I can't say)

But I downloaded the 3D clone of bubble bobble which is presumly done in DBpro, and ok, is just 2 months development but...

People on Blitz Forums already know myself as a not so modest developer, so...here is the point,

It is since may 2002 I'm working on a Bubble Bobble 3D remake (not clone) that means is not like the 2D one, but it tooks the main idea.

I'm sure you guys are all curious to see what's this game about

http://web.tiscali.it/litobyte/bubbletrouble/index.html
Download of playable demo is avaiable

oh a little thing: please show me a game better than this one, done in DBpro and I will be happy to consider DBpro as my next engine

I wait your comments
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Posted: 18th May 2003 20:15
See Star Wraith 3. Certainly better

(Sorry, but you really set yourself up for that one..)

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Posted: 18th May 2003 20:16 Edited at: 18th May 2003 20:17
Heh, never one to be accused of modesty on any boards, eh? You're asking for trouble now. I have a feeling somebody's gonna show you something to make you do some of that considering you promised...

edit: Ah, too slow! And from another blitz user, no less... heh

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Posted: 18th May 2003 20:29 Edited at: 18th May 2003 22:10
Download and play before to shoot.

I can't even see an animated characted in that game you mentioned.

Too easy.

Ok, I shooted my self before to try it,
I will try the game then honestly report here
John H
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Posted: 18th May 2003 20:50
AntonyW3 your post was removed because we do not support pirating (kazaa)

RPGamer

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Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Go to the Eternal Destiny Forum!
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Posted: 18th May 2003 21:03
Then you need to delete your own post for mentioning the K too, no?

Star Wraith 1 looked amazing... The gameplay was non-existent, but I'm sure he's got it right by #3.(The foundation was already there for an excellent space-shooter... Think freespace.)

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Posted: 18th May 2003 22:17 Edited at: 18th May 2003 22:19
Hey

I modified my statement in previous post,
the game you mentioned (Star Wraith, shadow of orion) definetly rocks !!!

I tried the demo, and I admit, it is the first almost pro-looking game developed with cheap* engine that I have ever seen.

cheapo* (either Blitz or DB or 3drad or other cheapo engines)

I really can't compare it with Bubble Trouble, as it is a space shooter, and mine is an arcade-action platformer.

But from what I could see, a part from the hud/text system (which is very simple only-txt) the game is looking better and more fun than Freespace imho.

DBpro looks really TONS faster than Blitz3D, I have to admit it.

Still I invite you to play another kind of nice title wrote in Blitz3D along 1 year of really hard work of 3 people ))

Cya!
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Posted: 19th May 2003 01:04
just out of interest what do you believe the Cg and CG is Squashy, because the context your using it within seems to tell me you don't really have much of a clue.

when a new technology is introduced the games industry will use it, when 16bit colour was introduced as a standard we upgraded from 256colour palettes. When MMX was introduced we too serious advantage of those 57 extra intructions specifically for colour in asm. When PowerVR & 3DFx came along we took advantage of that... the list is endless.
Cg is no different, it is probably the quickest takeup innovation in 3D Graphics since 3D Acelerators themselves and the leap being taken is JUST as big.

For the first time instead of having to create fake shadows from lightmapping we can now have REALTIME Shadows, instead of giving a fake prerendered reflection we can now have REAL raytrace reflections. When we have a tree with over 1,000 leaves on it all independant that don't slow down the game we can now with Vertex Shaders ... the application of Cg (Shaders) can span to ANYTHING you could have previously coded which specifically should be done within your graphics card.

Its not just about making photorealistic environments, as we can already do that with faked techniques - now we have the ability to add true atmosphere into games by taking what we've learnt trying to recreate that realism for so many years on hardware not created for it and now extend that with TRUE realism.

you want some realistic physics, have the graphics card process the collision have the cpu process the reaction and suddenly you can now have over 50,000 bouncing balls on an 800Mhz processor which all collide with each other on the polygon level instead of the mear 10,000 you'd of been able to have previously with only a pure CPU calculation.

Cg is not just about the graphics, its about revolutionising how we develop games - just because that means more and more people use it for the graphical purpose to make games look better, well that is one of the reasons its there. But when you can not have REAL flowing Liquids in REALTIME similar to that within Maya and Softimage, perhaps add in some grass which will part when the fluid flows through it, add a wetness look to it.
Suddenly you've taken something which you'd of originally used a few hundred billboard plains for the water and just textures grass (or even just a layered 3D Texture - you can now do with more realism, and just as quick as what you were making before.

first thing you should do is SERIOUSLY seperate your thoughs on CG for Cinematic Film and Cg for Computer Games/Engines being the same because they are so far from each other i don't know why anyone who'd be claiming to know atleast an inkling would be able to say they are the same.

you can make a CG Renderer with Cg (and i have already) however you can create a CG Render which is interactive and utilised in the same way as a computer game is.
Games will use it more and more for the same bloody reason we use Pentium MMX extentions and Athlon 3DNow! extentions... for the same reason we use TnL and FSAA.
Because it is the next evolution, and because in the right hands it can just blow the lid of what most people believe are the so-called limitations of technology.

Cg is very very young still, it has alot of growing to do and so do the programmers for it to use it effectively - and i can assure you what has been shown sofar on the nVidia site and in XBox games is only the tip of what Cg can and will accomplish within this industry.

as for good CG, i'd suggest you turn on Hallmark sometime and checkout a series called Dinotopia - that is probably the best use of CG you're going to see for a good while. And something only made possible to the Cinematic Interaction Tools that Maya has,
there is NO post effects compositing involved - everything is a standard prop + the scenes are then detailed with CG.
and i can promise you although somethings you'll go "yeah that CG" with ... there are other things you'll whole heartedly believe are real.
Mainly because the blend is almost seemless and the light rigging was setup so damn'd well that it just makes the scene.

thats all CG oftenly comes down to, Light and Shadow effects ... there is only a small ammount that has to do with actual modeling. When you can fool the eyes into believing it is really there then you can make it look realistic and inplace.

the reason alot of the StarWars scenes didn't work was because they were too clean, and the lighting was done poorly in alot of areas. But then in others it was done superbly.
The Tower Towers is probably CG being used to it best with Golem, i mean alot of the time he'd look out of place because his ambience was too high and shadows weren't case just right - but there are a few instances when you have to just go "OMG" because the artist finds that nitché and suddenly Golem looks as real as a Jim Henderson creation.
When they hobbits are being carried throught the forrest by the Etin ... that was a fantasic area too - because there was a real etin there, but also there was alot done through CG that being said i wonder if you'd of been able to tell me what within the forrest was real and what wasn't.

the way i see you can discuss techniques until your blue in the face, but they used alot of CG with alot of old techniques in Spiderman and to be honest that has got to be one of the most godawful movies i've seen CG used in.

as for the matrix bullet time camera, if you ever get a chance to see a new video from Sting & Craig David - thats how Bullet time should be done, yes the frames are blended between - but rather than split second timing and blending those frames they took realtime from all cameras within the room and then blended 3 frames either sideto get a more realistic movement then added a motion blur just to jitter the frames properly.
What yours left with is either a perfect Still frame from any angle or you have slow it down ... or speed it up.
the Matrix's technique made it jittery and actually a little ugly, not saying it wasn't a good effect - just the implimentation wasn't completely thought through.

quite frankly any technique you'd want to create and i could probably tell you atleast one probably two possible implimentations of it ... also the upsides and downsides to each way.
I mean really they could've for BT just used one of those BT 360° camera's and scan in the actors - setup the models and then have the actor do a motion capture against a blue screen with whatever you need to move in the scene to composite... you than place the model in the scene - setup the lights properly. With a photomap of the face along with carefully setup materials and mapping you could actually get the actor to mimic anything and then have the computer generated characters put in the time.
you still want the real actors look, then take your original BT and then you overlay that onto the screen on the frames it in - and then particial blend on the mid frames. Suddenly you get a far more fluid movement which people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference when the models change.

bitching that CG is overused in hollywood isn't going to stop them using it because they've seen what i can accomplish if it is in the hands of an artist. However it is a very lucrative industry right now, which means that you get a tonne of people straight from college purely in it for the money and buggerall artistic bones - they've just bee taught enough to get them by and they work on their memorised techniques rather than experimenting and comming up with something that looks right for the scene.

still think you need to go away and find out what CG is and what Cg is, because comments about how it is over used in computer games is firstly completely stupid for several reasons.
1) only 15% of all games players own a Vertex & Shader capable card, which although is a nice 1,500,000 still is not enough to warrent a game 100% shader based yet. infact most games only use them to enhance not actually do the work - Doom3 & HL2 are kinda sidelines in this as Doom3 is being held back until there is a market big enough, and HL2 is around a year off.
2) shaders are a bloody bastard to work with, and when i say bloody hard i mean until Cg was actually released by nVidia you have to know pretty good asm & C/C++ to impliment them to a degree, and also know a good amount about howto go about achieving effects normally and translate them.
3) Cg is a fairly new update, but is just like MMX and will be standard in everysingle card on the market within the next year (even budget cards - though nVidiaFX already have achieved this technically)

when you finally understand the difference, then join in the conversaion with a degree of something to add - else sit down and shutup ... cause all your doing over and over again is spreading misinformation about what everything is which is actually pissing the hell outta me right now.
if you play Cg as just purely for adding Graphical effects thats how users will see them - and they'll turn out using them exactly how you think they're being used right now.

christ i bet you don't even know how few titles on the market actually use Shaders do you! only the XBox & GC have the largest collection of Shader games, but with the technology there why the hell should they use the old slow arcaic techniques simply because you think it is being over used.

if someone invents a flatblade screwdriver would you still use a knife on the principal of the matter? i mean how backward thinking does someone have to be!!

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Rob K
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 19th May 2003 01:20
"DBpro looks really TONS faster than Blitz3D, I have to admit it."

Well I wouldn't go quite that far yet, but under certain conditions, it IS faster than Blitz. But I probably wouldn't go for either on speed grounds.

The StarWraith team are apparently working on a new version, done in DBPro this time I think, I look forward to seeing that.

"Cg is very very young still"

Understatement of the century

Raven, what you forgot to mention about those 15% of shader-capable cards, is that probably only 5% are DirectX 9 compatible. In DX 8 and DX 8.1, shaders were little more than a gimmick, they have only really reached the required level of flexibility and power with DX 9.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
G4m3D3v3l0p3r
23
Years of Service
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Joined: 18th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 19th May 2003 04:03
Huh, isn't Star Wraith (2) Shadow of Orion done with DBpro ?
I really thought so... confused

If it is just DB, well, my greater congrats to the team, a very nice slicky playable game.

hern, anyone (Dark Basic people) have downloaded and played Bubble Trouble demo ?
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 19th May 2003 08:15
well alot of the cards capable of shaders are pretty good, cept the major problem is the technology is jumping too far aheead of us.
i mean in the past year we've gone from "What the hell is a Shader", to Vertex, Pixel, Light, Time and now Shadow Shaders.
If that wasn't enough the hardwares capabilities have gone from 16 Vertex Registers to 1024 ... which means we can have some bloody complex Shaders being developed now.

and the Shaders in 8.0 we just not really there at all, was a total gimmick and in 8.1 they were more an afterthought although they work quite well with the GeForce Cards they're design on, they were still a major after though.
That said the XBox community have still made some impressive stuff using the 8.1 Shader Set, more impressive given that Mircosoft did very very little outlining about howto setup and use them and more specifically howto use FVF to achieve what you want.

9 supports Shaders like a saint now, and the HLSL (Fx) is pretty bugless (unusual for an MS thing) - but even still not many of the cards on the market support Shader v2.0 or v3.0 which kinda means no matter how much they update we're really all just stuck using 1.0/1.1
not a big deal but there is almost a double in commands capable and registration is setup better in 2.0

i can't wait for the p5 update on the shaders - has me all tingly with excitment

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!

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