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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Creating a Level Editor

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 23:42
Well, for completeness here's a few shots of the editor I made <Showing off the 4 major versions of it>


Oldest


Semi-Oldest


Semi-Newest


Newest


The editor has been discontinued.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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sp3ng
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 02:44
output would most logically be along the lines of a custom text file: e.g. ".sae" (sasukes awesome editor)

this text file should contain all information of the map,
actually it might be better for the editor to generate a text file for each element of the map (one for the terrain, one for the architecture, one for the enemies, etc.)


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Inspire
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 03:01
I'm really diggin' the semi-newest one, Aaron. Reminds me of FPSC (I'm sure you modeled it after that).

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 10:06
Thanks Inspire. I did, as well as the newest one. The newest one just doesn't have the list view or embedded window as in FPSC.

If anyone's interested in the source code to the newest one, I can provide it.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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da power pwnerer
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 12:28
I would like the source I am working on an engine myself (No shots posted here yet) and I would like to see how you made yours




-Dan


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Come to Noobisoft's website today!
Zeus
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 13:36
This thread is still alive?!

STOP reading my signature!
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 22:01
@da power pwnerer
Click here to download DarkGE 2's source code

@Cool Guy Jordan
Yes.... And?


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Inspire
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 22:22
Downloading now...

da power pwnerer
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 23:02
I think you have the link wrong, I get an error when I click it:
Server Not Found



-Dan


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 01:40
@da power pwnerer
Nope, it's correct. Just tested it. Do you have a slow net connection perhaps? Or an "unstable" one?


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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jason p sage
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 01:51
@sprng -
Quote: "actually it might be better for the editor to generate a text file for each element of the map (one for the terrain, one for the architecture, one for the enemies, etc.)
"


I agree - 99.9% - 0.1% thinks MAYBE an option to save in ONE file OR Separate files as one option - and the other option - a list of checkboxes next to each type of thing - so you could selectively "Export/save" Everything, just enemies, just terrain, and/or any combination WITH (again) the ability to put all in in one file or multiple files - based on category or whatever

sp3ng
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 05:35
Quote: "@sprng -"


thanks jasrn p sage

anyway, my philosophy is the more source files you have, the less nonsensical each one will be

at the moment with my editor im working on th object selection code, i have it working with a XYZ widget (that scales itself depending on camera distance) but i have encountered problems to do with the objects parameters

i may start on making a new GUI but progress will be slow as i am entering exam period with school and have a whole heap of assignments to do (if you would like to help i would be gratefull)
but i only have two weeks to go so after then i will have a whole lot more time to work on it


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zapakitul
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:50
hm mine is sleeping for now! It will wake up before the national soft contest in Romania (cia 2007)!

da power pwnerer
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 11:56
Got it to work now, thanks



-Dan


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Sasuke
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 01:06
I've been playing the Crysis Demo all week and it's one of the best games I've ever played, Halo 3 was great but this is something else. When I get paied, I buying straight away. The sandbox editor is amazing, I just love blowing up stuff with that nuke tank. They've really done some great work on the engine and I've gotten even more inspired.

jason p sage and sp3ng, good points, I'll have a stab at single and separate files, see what I come up with.

Aaron, nice editor and the small improvements between them.

sp3ng, good luck on your exams.
sp3ng
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 10:10 Edited at: 18th Nov 2007 10:15
thanks Sasuke,
i have also got crysis now (pre-ordered the secial edition) but it will be about 4 months before i actually have a PC that can play it (now thats devotion)

also with exams, i seem to have the ability to not study yet still pass with flying colours.

e.g. i had a maths exam earlier this year and i did absolutely nothing in class (i just picked up the concept as the teacher put it on the board, im a visual learner) yet on the test i got all but one mark (i think it was 39/40 marks) and that one mark i lost was due to me misreading the question and forgetting to divide something by two

EDIT: Also what is that shiny windows xp theme in the newest editor i have been looking for it for ages (ive seen it elsewhere and cant find where to get it)


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Sasuke
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 22:13 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 22:14
Guy's got another bug which I can't figure out what is the problem. All windows except the main window can be dragged around by holding the mouse down on the title bar of the window but for some reason, the window doesn't move as fast as the mouse. The mouse cursor ends up falling of the window meaning dragging will stop. Would this be an updating issue or something wrong with the code, though this is IanM's code I believe.

@Van B, I believe you once said that your boycotting sprite based gui's and image based gui is the way. The only reason I didn't use images when I started was because I don't know how to control images that well. But I can see the hugh speed boost and some amazing stuff that can be done using images. If you are reading this, would you be able to give me some advice on image based guis or some links.

@Anyone reading the question above. If anyone else has any advice please post.

Shaders - I'm wondering how shaders should be viewed by the editor, cause shaders drain frames would it be better to have an image or marker on/over the object as a reference. I have a shader viewer but thats only a single object, but when it's a scene with a high poly count and multiple effects you need a beast of a computer to run it.

Sorry for the lack of image/vid/exe's, christmas work hours have gone through the roof.
Roxas
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 00:54
Quote: "Shaders - I'm wondering how shaders should be viewed by the editor, cause shaders drain frames would it be better to have an image or marker on/over the object as a reference. I have a shader viewer but thats only a single object, but when it's a scene with a high poly count and multiple effects you need a beast of a computer to run it."


Make so that the editor only displays shaders at certain distance.. And doesnt display any shaders that are far!

Or only display shader on that object what is selected perhaps?


Click For Details!

Sasuke
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 01:34
Good idea. If only DBP had a better handle on DX then this wouldn't be a problem, maybe in the future I guess?
Roxas
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 04:22
Actually shaders are quite fast in dbp if used correctly. You could try the distance culling and see if it works fast


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HeavyAmp
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 05:30
Quote: "Guy's got another bug which I can't figure out what is the problem. All windows except the main window can be dragged around by holding the mouse down on the title bar of the window but for some reason, the window doesn't move as fast as the mouse. The mouse cursor ends up falling of the window meaning dragging will stop. Would this be an updating issue or something wrong with the code, though this is IanM's code I believe."


I had the same problem with my Sprite based Window system. This is the way I got around it.



What this does is when you first Click on your window bar it records the distance between the Top Left Corner of your Window and where you have your mouse held. Once Your mouse is held it will position your window at the coordinates of your mouse minus the Distance you originally calculated it at. This way no matter how fast you move your mouse the Window will always be in the correct place.




Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
Roxas
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 05:37
Quote: ""Guy's got another bug which I can't figure out what is the problem. All windows except the main window can be dragged around by holding the mouse down on the title bar of the window but for some reason, the window doesn't move as fast as the mouse. The mouse cursor ends up falling of the window meaning dragging will stop. Would this be an updating issue or something wrong with the code, though this is IanM's code I believe.""


Easiest way to go around that is make variable for your window array called dragging!

Then it checks if your mouse is on window titlebar and you are pressing left mouse or the dragging variable is 1


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Sasuke
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 10:57
Cheers HeavyAmp and Roxas, they both work thanks

And that code HeavyAmp, you wouldn't beleive how similar are's are, I even use Tab to switch between windows. Anyway Thanks again
Nemesis_0_
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 15:42
Quote: "output would most logically be along the lines of a custom text file: e.g. ".sae" (sasukes awesome editor)

this text file should contain all information of the map,
actually it might be better for the editor to generate a text file for each element of the map (one for the terrain, one for the architecture, one for the enemies, etc.)"


Just a question... would you also have the game read this file after loading it? or is the text file just for the editor and the game will load a completely different file... also, instead of using many text files, why not just have a "marker" in the one text file for each thing.

|TERRAIN|
load terrain stuff one
load terrain stuff two
|ENDTERRAIN|

|OBJETS|
load object one (position, orientation)
load object two (position, orientation)
|ENDOBJECTS|

something like that?!?!
Roxas
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 17:57 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 18:04
Nemesis..

Saving a terrain file or something doesnt defienatly go like that..
What you are doing is called Scripting! If Sasuke wants to save script then it can be like that.. But i prefer normal saving because it does encryption aswell.

Example how i save:


Thats basic conspect what i just wrote.

Memblock terrains are saved similar way but you save terrains amount and then all the memblock information first on file.


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HeavyAmp
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 02:11 Edited at: 26th Nov 2007 02:33
I was wanting to use alt tab but the Disable system keys doesn't work for XP. Sasuke, how did you go about implementing a Scroll bar, I haven't got around to it yet but Ive been contemplating an Idea which may or may not work and would be a simple solution without having to reposition a whole lot of text and stuff in the windows. Create an Image Memblock of everything that the window contains. The Have another Image memblock the size of the window Body. You would get different different chunks of your whole window and then transfer them to your window memblock for rendering depending on where the scroll bar is. I would still need to figure out how to achieve my buttons. I couldn't have them as sprites as I couldn't partly render it, if it was half showing. My only Idea about this is that I would have to have the buttons using Screen coordinates.

Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
aluseus GOD
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 02:16
Wow this is old. indi posted in it.
Good luck on that editor Sasuke!

alus.portbb.com go there.
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Sasuke
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 11:42
HeavyAmp, I got my inspirations from Daemon's Sui(gui) system, check out the site. I'm trying to figure out how all of this could be done using images pasted to the screen, cause this would be so much easier using images than sprites.

Here's the site, download gui functions and look under scrollbar and listbox:
http://www.freewebs.com/aa2a/daemon/

But your idea is interesting, I think i'll look into memblocks again, haven't really used them that much in this project.
HeavyAmp
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 15:36
I was thinking about this last night how you could use buttons using only images and I had several Ideas. The first one requires you to use the alpha channel of the image meaning you loose the ability to make the window partly transparent. Use the alpha channel to store where your buttons are located on the image. And to tell which button was which you would give them different values. e.g.



My second Idea Ive just thought of now while writing this. It works the same as using the images alpha but requires two images. The First Image is just your window body. The Second Image contains one main color White and have black where you want the buttons. The Buttons contains different shades of black to tell them apart like the alpha. This second image will be completely transparent you will only be able to see the first image. These two images can be scrolled at the same time using the memblock idea. so the buttons on the Window should match up with the buttons on the black/white.

Both of these ideas should work without having to mess around with setting coordinates for the buttons and is the best way I can think of considering we can't use sprites. I have two days off tomorrow so I'll see if I can get it working then.

Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
Sasuke
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Posted: 30th Nov 2007 11:26 Edited at: 30th Nov 2007 11:26
Question: Module's

Say I wanted to make a new function for the editor, I open up the "New Module Template.txt" and copy that to DBP, I create my new function and save it. I add the function path to the module.ini and my new function is included into the editor.

Thats what I want to do but there has been many problems with the #include command. The question is is this a bad idea and is there a the another way(I was thinking that I could create functions via text files). What's opinion?
Roxas
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Posted: 30th Nov 2007 22:00
#include should work with .dba files just fine..


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Sasuke
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Posted: 6th Dec 2007 21:03
Question: Level Editor?

I've struck a dilemma... What am I actually creating?

Looking back, I wanted a visual and more effiecent way to piece my levels together and maybe a few extra's. But the further down the line the more complex the project got and now I'm questionning what I'm making. From basic object placement to visual effects, meterial, sound and etc... editors. Looking at it now, I'm really building an entire game engine.

I'm wondering wheres the cut-off line is for a general level editor, cause anything more than object placement and texture assigning is heading into game engine editor territories.

Whats your opinion on the subject?
thebulk71
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Posted: 7th Dec 2007 00:24
The way I'd see an editor, is an "advanced GUI" that exports custom scripts that would then be used in a seperate game engine executable.

At least that is how I'm doing it in my project and so far I'm surviving the development without merging/confusing my work.

But then again, you are looking for a crysis type editor right? Cos i'm guessing that crysis is a perfect merge of an editor and engine...

these are only my opinions... stick to what suits you
Mage
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Posted: 7th Dec 2007 04:32
Quote: "Looking back, I wanted a visual and more effiecent way to piece my levels together and maybe a few extra's. But the further down the line the more complex the project got and now I'm questionning what I'm making. From basic object placement to visual effects, meterial, sound and etc... editors. Looking at it now, I'm really building an entire game engine.

I'm wondering wheres the cut-off line is for a general level editor, cause anything more than object placement and texture assigning is heading into game engine editor territories."



You're getting the idea. A level editor and "game engine editor" if the term even exists, are largely the same things.

A good example is "Unreal".

HeavyAmp
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Posted: 7th Dec 2007 04:42
Sasuke, I managed to write up an example of a Scrolling window with buttons using only images.

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Sasuke
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Posted: 7th Dec 2007 17:20
Great work HeavyAmp, thats pretty cool. I really need to study memblocks, I never needed to use them in any other project(except the last few for terrain stuff). Are you going to use that in your project?

I've desiced on what my editors going to be, its the editor for my game engine and limited version(less modules) of editor for seperate engines.

I noticed the ever growing list of UDT's on one object. An example would be:

Editor UDTs: (b = boolean)
- bEdCollid: The object collide with other objects in the editor
- bEdSnap: Snap to the grid in the editor
- bEdHidden: Object visibility in the editor
- bEdLockPos: Lock object to the ist position
- bEdMovable: The object able to be moved or not
etc...

Then you have object properties like position, rotation, light, fog, texture and stages, shader, visibility etc... and theres suface properties. Is there a cutoff point for the amount of UDT's assigned to a single object?
HeavyAmp
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Posted: 8th Dec 2007 05:33
I don't have a project to use it on atm although I have a few Ideas for one. I've decided I'm going to rewrite my Windows interface I don't like how Ive set up some of the stuff in it and while doing that I'll incorporate the scrolling/Button part.

Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 04:05
I'm having a window resize problem with the editor my friend and I are making. Whenever I resize the window, everything's size changes as well.

I know why, it's because the text is drawn to the back buffer and then transfered to the screen, making it a bitmap. But what's the 'happiest' way to combat this?

One of the solutions I came up with was to make a WIW (Window in window) GUI. Just like in Photoshop, where the main GUI and stuff is in a main window (the one we'll make unresizable) and then have the actual screen being rendered in a small window inside of it.

If I am correct, we will be able to change the resolution of the selected window when it's being resized to match the appropriate aspect ratio right?

Thanks
Mistrel
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 09:52
Quote: "I'm having a window resize problem with the editor my friend and I are making. Whenever I resize the window, everything's size changes as well.

I know why, it's because the text is drawn to the back buffer and then transfered to the screen, making it a bitmap. But what's the 'happiest' way to combat this?

One of the solutions I came up with was to make a WIW (Window in window) GUI. Just like in Photoshop, where the main GUI and stuff is in a main window (the one we'll make unresizable) and then have the actual screen being rendered in a small window inside of it.

If I am correct, we will be able to change the resolution of the selected window when it's being resized to match the appropriate aspect ratio right?"


You can disable resizing entirely. Is this an acceptable option?

You need IanM's Matrix 20 dll to run this code.



http://3dfolio.com
Sasuke
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 11:32 Edited at: 12th Dec 2007 11:33
The way I combated this was when you resize the main window change the resolution to the window size. If you don't, you'll be tring to 1024,768 plus resolution into a window thats e.g 320,240.

I made this awhile ago, it's not great but you can build on it, thanks to: spooky, MrTAToad and andrew11 for the original code:


Issue: You can't move the window but you can resize it, moving it will make the screen go black, I think I know why, but don't know how to solve it.

Had some spare time for work and started to make a dent into my other gui based project previously mentions 'DBPz0ne'. Not much though, here's a pic:

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 23:58
Hmmm. Thanks guys, the examples helped.

This problem, along with the REAL window-in-window mode not being possible without BlueGUI, has made me want to switch to DarkGDK to make the level editor. I'm just not satisfied with the results I get in DBP when working with windows/GUI stuff. Me, being a bit slow on news, just found out DarkDGK is free... so I'm going to try things out on DarkGDK and see if I get some cleaner looking results.

If things go well with DarkGDK, I might even start a thread like this one over in that board =].
Mistrel
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 22:33
What do you consider to be the REAL window-in-window mode?

http://3dfolio.com
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 22:55 Edited at: 13th Dec 2007 23:01
http://screencast.com/t/iJ975LhJSF

That. That's exactly what I'm talking about. It looks professional, it looks clean and it looks easy to use. No full screen mode needed, or homebrewn menu's. I have nothing against homebrewn menu's, but I think that's something reserved for games, not editors; unless you can pull it off right like sasuke's. This is just a demo that was done by the TGC Dev guy btw, I didn't do it. But it works, and it works wonderfully. This is basically what I'm talking about. All done with C++ DarkGDK and MFC.
Mistrel
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 07:31
What you're asking for is the DBP window as an MDI window. It's a little complicated but this is already possible using API calls.

http://www8.pair.com/dmurdoch/mdi.html

If you need help I can put an example together for you later.

http://3dfolio.com
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 08:49
Ok, you've got me totally confused now. But this may be a good thing lol.

What's the difference between what MFC can do and what your talking about can do? I thought I was on the right track as far as tools went when it came to choosing C++/DarkGDK and MFC. What is this MDI stuff you mention? Should I be looking into this?

I've already second guess myself once tonight when someone mentioned C# to me.

*Sigh* I'm lost on to what language and package I should use now. I just know DBP probably won't cut it for the IDE/GUI/MDI/wajlajflasjdf stuff.

I'm tired. Enough thinking for today. I'll check back tomorrow. thanks guys =]
Sasuke
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 14:16
I would like to know the answer to that too, I've found creating a entire gui system in DBP hell, plus it's just not fast enough in DBP and I'm only using image for my gui(Ok... maybe a few sprites for dynamic gui stuff).

I've been looking into other game engine's and there editor's of late, I like to make mods for games in my spare time and I've been using the UnrealEd 3.0. It can do some amazing things, but it's very much like an advanced modeller(Zbrush, Cinerma 4D, 3ds Max, Truespace etc...), you really need to know what your doing to achieve anything. CryEngine 2 Sandbox editor is really something else, anyone can achieve anything simply. You could be a total noob but you can pickup a very straight forward tutorial on how to start making mods and away you go. Still UnrealEd just has way to much functionality over the Cry Editor, but it's way to early in the CryEngine's life to see it's true potential, maybe when it's more used throughout the industry then I could judge. Anyway to the point, why are editors like UnrealEd not user friendly and what are the advantages?
jason p sage
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 16:34
@Sid - I think many of us (I know ME!) have a good idea how you feel! I feel the same way about "What Terrain" drawing approach should I do - Full power - possibly slow - or "Advanced" terrain - and get the culling speed but lose burned in shdows etc. Write a Limb Culler and make the "mesh" thing work etc etc.

Same for how to go about GUI etc.

This is why I am SERIOUSLY thinking for my "Editor" Mode (I'm merging Editor/level creator into game engine itself kinda) I'm just going to go with mostly "single Keypress" stuff - like in game mode the keyboard acts one way - in editor mode - many keypresses map to "editor stuff" - and where possible - I'll try to make it seem intuitive and work the same where appropriate. I'll use some ugly raw text - here and there to give feedback - and a callable "Quick Key Reference" etc.

I'm SO TRYING to get to the gameplay - but - I keep having to step back - as we all know a bad design bites ya later - FRUSTRATING - FRUSTRATING! Especially when you rely on how stuff is supposed to work - get all coded into a corner - ready to have the tire hit the road - and it DOESN'T work like the documentation or some other such non-sense - this happens to me with both 3rd party "MEdia creation" software and in DarkGDK.

I'm convinced though that DarkGDK C++ is the way to go as it runs circles around DBPro in Performance - and having NATIVE access to dll's - and C++ lib's without all that managed versus non managed code seems ideal. (Even if it is a bit more work at times - having to clean up your own objects manually etc...)

HeavyAmp
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 17:08
Ive been making some good progress on my DBP GUI although I expect its going to be a few weeks before its ready as my coding time is limited. It relies heavily on memblocks making it quite quick. I've been trying to make it easy to use as possible. But having said this I haven't figured completely how to go about completing certain parts to it although I have some Ideas.

Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 17:24 Edited at: 14th Dec 2007 17:30
@General Audience: Yeah the decision is certainly annoying . It's even worse when your a novice to everything outside of DBP. I've dabbled in the C# and C++ languages a little while ago, but I didn't stick around long because DBP was so attractive. Now that's I've grown a bit in programming know how, DBP is well... still amazing, but at the same time, it's lacking the assets I'm looking for for this particular design goal.

And I think that's just it. A programmer should observe which tools he has and pick the one most suitable for the task. Doing else wise just creates more headaches as workarounds are always needed for certain things. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole. DBP/DarkGDK is amazing for games, and I plan on using DarkGDK for mine. But, the functionality I need for making an IDE/GUI (w/e it is I'm after, I'm so noob I don't even know the name for it) just isn't there with DBP. So I am going to stop going against what the language was designed for (games) and go with something that allows me to do what I am trying to do.

Having said that, that's pretty much at the decision making point I am now. I have chosen Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition as my weapon of choice (can someone confirm this choice is best? Over C# and others??) and now I'm stuck with the decision of what do I use to make the IDE/GUI with.

MFC looks promising, especially since I saw an example in which MFC was hosting a child window of a DarkSDK running and rendering a scene. That's essentially what I want to do with my level editor! Now the questions I have are:

--First and foremost, C++ w/DarkGDK = yes or no for level editor?
--Secondly, Can MFC allow me to create my own IDE/GUI? If so, how far can I take that?
--What is this MDI stuff? Is it just the term used for the window mode, or is it a counterpart to MFC? What's going on here.
--Is there something better I should be looking into besides MFC/MDI?
--Whats the problem with BlueGUI and DBP? Can the results I'm looking for be achieved on there? What's the limitation of BlueGUI that C++ won't have? Could I use BlueGUI code in DarkGDK??
--Is DarkGDK better at making a GUI/IDE than DBP? Should I even be looking towards MFC/MDI/whatever to make a GUI? Is DarkGDK powerful enough by itself (unlike DBP) to handle IDE/GUI creation? Or do I need stuff like MFC to achieve this?
--Is it possible to use the "Visual" aspect of C++ to plot out my editor and then program in the functions to the buttons and then tie it to the DarkSDK window that's inside of the editor window? (Host, child deal)

Please give a good response to this post. I'm not saying you guys aren't, but these are some serious questions I have and need answered before I go forward with anything more.

Thanks a bunch.

@Sasuke:

Quote: "Anyway to the point, why are editors like UnrealEd not user friendly and what are the advantages?"


I'm not 100% sure, but I can speculate. I know from using editors like unreal ed in the past, the overcrowded IDE raises the anxiety bar a bit when trying to get something done. I'm always searching for the tool I need in the IDE and it's gets tiring. Also, moving the camera around to be able to view what I am working on best has always been a problem for me. Multiple camera angles work better than a single one, but at the same it's annoying to have to constantly look around. And one last bit that always gets me: Lining up objects is always a pain in the rear. Some sort of snap when shift is being held or something what be amazing.

@Jason: So basically... your avoiding a IDE/GUI all together by using keyboard keys?? Hmm... Sounds interesting. A lot less fricking complicated than a IDE/GUI it seems. If all else fails, I might try something like that.
jason p sage
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 18:03
@Sid Sinister
Quote: "Now that's I've grown a bit in programming know how, DBP is well... still amazing, but at the same time, it's lacking the assets I'm looking for for this particular design goal"
And then the technology changes just when you start getting some mastery over it!

Quote: "A programmer should observe which tools he has and pick the one most suitable for the task"
Agreed.

Quote: "Having said that, that's pretty much at the decision making point I am now"
Careful - I've been stuck there a LONG TIME sometimes!


Quote: "MFC looks promising, especially since I saw an example in which MFC was hosting a child window of a DarkSDK running and rendering a scene. That's essentially what I want to do with my level editor!"
yeah yeah - and about your other questions - let's get to it fellow hacker and maker of colorful tools and games

MFC - Microsoft Foundation Classes are JUST a FANCY wrapper around the Windows API. There is alot there - but it is Microsoft's First PASS at bloatware - but it doesn't make many things easier - (.Net takes this further - but to new levels of preprocessing bloat - compile on demand - (I demand it compile when I say - it doesn't listen - go figure! )

MDI - Just means a Multiple document interface. Nice Idea for a editor - because you could have each "Window" inside your main window - be different "Viewports" and could in theory - stray from the RIGID "4 quadrant" or "one view at a time" that most editors/modelers have. I like MDI applications. Microsoft strayed from them and everyone followed - then they started adding tabs to internet browsers - eseentially returning to the multi-document interface - but now without the ability to TILE the windows, arrange in a cascade etc.(MDI) That is Computer Tech progress!

Anything you can do with an MDI "Child Window" you can do in a SINGLE window App - meaning - toss up a picture box and make DarkGDK render to it - DarkGDK doesn't care if its in a WinAPI lean and mean Window's picture box - or in a MDI - or a LAyered on MFC based GUI - that looks exactly the same - (usually) but runs a bit slower but is easier to code. the nice thing about MFC - unlike .Net - is that its a bit more "Interchangable" and easier to have WinAPI specific and MFC code interlaced - kind of using what is best for you at the time.


Quote: "First and foremost, C++ w/DarkGDK = yes or no for level editor?"
Yeah - for the rendering - ABSOLUTELY - Plus - that way its native - so if your audience is mostly DarkGDK/DBPRo users - then you will likely reach a true WYSIWYG interface - meaning - it looks in "GAME" like it looked in your editor. this is a win win!


Quote: "Secondly, Can MFC allow me to create my own IDE/GUI?"
YES!
Quote: "If so, how far can I take that?"
As far as you want - You'll have access to all standard "commonly seen" windows "Widgets" - like text boxes etc. You can manhandle the fonts - colors - you can use non-standard window shapes - called Masking - You (I think) can make forms semi-transparent now - I think with newer WinAPI parameters - I don't THINK thats a .net exclusive ability - .Net uses API to under the hood I would think. So yeah - that's how Window's GUI's are made. Direct-X allows even more fancy stuff - but - again - that's in the rendered window and not what we're talking about here.


Quote: "Whats the problem with BlueGUI and DBP?"
To be fair - I may have mentioned I read that from someone - but they didn't say BlueGui was broken - just that when it got down to some particulars - it wouldn't do what that authoer wished - so he jumped ship to use Window GUI like you are pondering.

Quote: " Can the results I'm looking for be achieved on there?"
Hard to say - I think not - only because it (to my knowledge) is layered on DirectX - therefore all "Widgets" are in the DirectX render window I THINK. Feel free to correct me people

Quote: "--Is there something better I should be looking into besides MFC/MDI?"
Ok - We nailed MDI - so we'll leave that part as up to you - but for the MFC - You might find it takes to long. In this case - any 3rd party "shortcut" to get to the same basic end might be worth looking at - but with shortcuts - comes the loss of flexibility. I Personally wouldn't want my GUI all dressed pretty - just functional. If you want functional - standard - intuitive due to familiarity from a user's point of view - Standard windows Controls are great. Also - note - I use FreePAscal alot. and They have a project called Lazarus - which allows .Net'ish and VB'ish Draw forms - click - add code - compile and run - but I don't know how possible it would be to make that "Talk" with DarkGDK - I mean if DarkGDK needs to be compiled as THE MAIN EXE - then you better stick to Microsoft all the way. I like laz because its prety lightweight - and reminicent of VB6 - except with all the object oriented stuff like C++ - but its easier to read than MFC code ... YUCK - wordy - horrid to debug sometimes.

Quote: "Is DarkGDK better at making a GUI/IDE than DBP?"
Sure faster and easier to hook into Win API stuff. I'd say yeah generally.

Quote: "Is DarkGDK powerful enough by itself (unlike DBP) to handle IDE/GUI creation?"
Probably - but if you want toolbars, pull down menus - input boxes so users can type numbers etc... I'd stick with windows controls - winapi - or mfc - or .net for that matter - the easiest to code if you have DarkGDK.net. You can mix'em too - using managed and (c++) unmanaged code - but - I've heard mix reviews on how easy this is to accomplish. I get the impression - PICK one and go with it.

Quote: "Is it possible to use the "Visual" aspect of C++ to plot out my editor and then program in the functions to the buttons and then tie it to the DarkSDK window that's inside of the editor window? (Host, child deal)"
Yes - and I think that's what you've been eluding to throughout your message - and likewise my reply.

Quote: "Please give a good response to this post."
Is this OK?

Quote: "I'm not saying you guys aren't"
Yes you Are! (Just kidding)

Quote: "@Jason: So basically... your avoiding a IDE/GUI all together by using keyboard keys?? Hmm... Sounds interesting. A lot less fricking complicated than a IDE/GUI it seems. If all else fails, I might try something like that."


Yeah - I'm trying to get to the GAME part - and I'll shave off all I can - after all - this is a hobby - and I have more fun test driving my game creations - and working and seeing the game "start to come alive" and making a GUI for a war game - well - it's not exciting - I make GUI's All day every day at work using various things all the time. Personally - I'm pretty burnt on it - and there are so many ways to "git-r-done" - that I'm not really a master at any of them - Kind of a need to KNOW NOW - then forget after I work on different systems kind of deal.

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