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Work in Progress / >50% Rule with W.I.P Projects

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 03:51
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Quote: "Try going back to the original threads made on it to see what it was used for before newbies over-ran it. That to me is MORE irritating than anything i've ever seen on the WIP board.
Simply because I'd love to rather discuss possibly ways to do new animation, procedural systems, game balancing, etc. within the Game Theory board rather than having nowhere to put it. Because you write about it in GT and suddenly everyone believes you're working on that in a new game. NOOO it's dicussing theories that *might* be moved to a tech demo.. but you can get input from others about other possible ways to do it. It's just that Theory/Proof of Concept .. not bloody "I wanna pimp my new project I want to make" only it seems to have moved to that."


i have to agree with that to an extent. many people go in there to put their shot-down WIP posts there until they get enough screenshots and stuff to make a real WIP. i sorta did that myself, but i still try to keep the "gaming theory" aspect in there, asking how people prefer controls, how certain parts of the game should be run, ect. but its true, i have to admit that much of the Game Design Theory board is over-run with half-baked WIP posts.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 03:57
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Then, I resay, why not a game concept board?


Little Bright Dots
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eek
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 05:01 Edited at: 31st Jul 2007 10:28
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The only viable solution I see is initial mod approval. The wait would definitely be bearable, and it would ensure quality posts. I also like the idea of an example quality WIP post. A demo requirement is a terrible idea in my opinion because releasing a demo is not always something people want to do at all before the release of a program. That's just my thoughts.

Edit:

If this was an actual problem this would be my opinion. I check this forum most days and it takes me about 5 minutes to sift through the posts which doesn't make filthy posts problematic for me. Afterthought from reading subsequent posts.
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dab
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 06:28
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Quote: "How about the WIP boards be a permanent mod approval? So that way, a mod can decide if the user is know to get things done, and if there is enough to call a wip. "
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Oneka
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 07:18
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How about we just not have a WIP Board? I disagree, we should leave it they way it is, and if you dont like something dont read it


Making better games everday!
Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
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Daggeth
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 07:50
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I think some of the idea's on this thread are just plain silly.

The custom Pathfinding code I wrote for my RTS WIP had hours of thought and work put into it.. I literally had to read pages and essays before I got A*, Attractors and Repelors to play nicely.. however I can't show you a 'screenshot' of all that hard work. But I can show you screenshots of terrain that I made that took 1/30th the time. You can't tell effort and determination by screenshots or even demos.

I say, leave the forums as they are, nothing is perfect.
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MikeS
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 09:42
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Agreed Daggeth. I'm looking to see what can or if anything should be done.

I don't think mod approval is a viable option, for the last thing I want is to make the other mods due more than we already have to.

Discussion over the issue has gone well though, so I applaud all that participated, thanks.

I've read through every post, but feel free to add anything else if you have more thoughts. I'm thinking a revision to the current sticky will be due to update it a bit. Until then though, just keep posting and keeping things as they are.




A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 09:43
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Why not make it democratic? The first time a project is posted then everyone vote on it. If it passes a certain acceptance level (say, for example, min of 20 votes, with 50%+ acceptance) then let the poster make new posts. Even better if Apollo can be changed to accept this behaviour otherwise would have to be monitored.

Wouldn't be hard to put into Apollo. Simply allow the first post no matter what. But no other posts are allowed by anyone (apart from mods) on the topic. Going into the post shows the original post, and the voting area (only one vote per user) with current results. When a user votes then bump the post to the top again (otherwise will disappear). Once the acceptance level has been reached then don't show the voting area (maybe show the final results at the top eg. 75 votes with 60% acceptance) and allow new posts. By the time a project is accepted then they will hopefully have some more screenshots etc to show.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 12:59
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Sounds cumbersome to me. I think it's better to let no-hope posts just "wither on the vine" as someone said.

Mike S said "something has to be done". Why does something have to be done?
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 14:06
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hey... i feel that if you can post a screenshot of your game, then it's a valid work in progress...

seriously, why overcomplicate this thing... for this percentage thing... besides, how are you gonna get a verifiable percentage gauge for this stuff...

plus... most wip failures usually occur towards the end of development anyways, when all the realitiesm hard work, lil unforeseen gremlins start to pile up... so %50 wouldn't guarantee anything at all anyways...

really... if someone is at the point where they can post a screenshot, and they are willing to take the abuse, or praise, that may result... well, let em post...

--Mike
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Kieran
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 14:33
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@Red Ocktober

So you're saying if a noob posts a screen of a hello world demo saying its his "MMORPG WIP" then its good to post?

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IanM
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 14:48
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Yes, that's what he's saying, and I agree with him - Peer pressure is a wonderful correction mechanism, both for discouraging the rubbish, and encouraging the good stuff.

TBH, I'm not sure that the WIP board is broken enough to actually need fixing. The crap posts settle out of sight fairly quickly, and the best stays near the top - just look at the first 50 posts right now!

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Dr Manette
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 17:24
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Good point, IanM, I never really thought the board had many problems. Really, you can't give the requirement a percent, because who will know exactly what's been done and what's to be done? All the requirements ever needed in a WIP thread are in the How to Know if your game is ready for a WIP post thread. Screenshots, info, maybe a demo in the beginning or a few days after posting.

More moderation can be a good thing, but anyone who gives a hoot on this board knows what a good WIP looks at, and we're pretty reliable when it comes to pointing out lack of screenshots or telling the poster that their game needs more than concept designs.


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
Life after death http://www.biofoxgames.com/comic/index.php
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tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 17:31
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Yeah, we're pretty reliable, yes. Don't look at bad posts? There could be plain ZOMGWTFBBQ? rubbish behind any of these titles... I think we should at least have far more mods here, and the example post will be a good idea too. Also, I agree with the word minimum. I've always been against the screenshot rule - just a progress rule would do.

No more My Ub3r MM0RPG 'Hello World' or 1'M th3 b3st l0lz0rz 'Hello Cube' for me, please.


Little Bright Dots
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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 17:53
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Yeah. The word minimum is something 95% of the real wip posts have anyways, and it's almost always projects that don't have a decent description that shouldn't be here. If someone can't take the time to actually tell us what they're posting, then they shouldn't have a thread.

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heartbone
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 20:34
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If there is something specifically wrong, then fix it.
I still don't understand what is wrong with the current board content.
The board is fine just as it is.
If is isn't broken then it does not need to be fixed.
What is the problem?
Too many threads?
What?
In other words...
Quote: "Green Gandalf: Mike S said "something has to be done". Why does something have to be done?"


I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Kyle Katarn
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 21:23
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I'd say Disagree, someone said that WIP posts are posted to get general feedback or suggestions for added features. If your game is 50% done, and someone suggests a change in the already made coding that you really like, you're gonna have a lotta problems if your coding is so tight that a change could alter the whole outcome of the game (for worse, that is).

I pose that a WIP thread should have at least:

Project Title (for obvious reasons).
A fairly well developed story line.
Characters and their description/background (optional).
A list of features within the game.
A screenpack of at least 4-6 screenshots.

We use this at another Forum I visit, and it works fine for us.

I hope you didnt mind my two cents.
~Kyle out.
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Dr Manette
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 21:28
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Besides the characters and story, which aren't always part of a game, I have to agree with Kyle. Screenshots and features, maybe a paragraph or two on what you're going for, is all you need for a WIP. As I said, though, threads lacking this drop like rocks to the abyss of the board.


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
Life after death http://www.biofoxgames.com/comic/index.php
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Deathead
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 23:37
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Quote: "You know what irritates me, is how Game Theory has become a "I have this idea for a game, ya'll think it's good" rather than the original concept for it where we could discuss theories on game development.

Try going back to the original threads made on it to see what it was used for before newbies over-ran it. That to me is MORE irritating than anything i've ever seen on the WIP board.
Simply because I'd love to rather discuss possibly ways to do new animation, procedural systems, game balancing, etc. within the Game Theory board rather than having nowhere to put it. Because you write about it in GT and suddenly everyone believes you're working on that in a new game. NOOO it's dicussing theories that *might* be moved to a tech demo.. but you can get input from others about other possible ways to do it. It's just that Theory/Proof of Concept .. not bloody "I wanna pimp my new project I want to make" only it seems to have moved to that."

Oh, is that what it mean't and i don't like it when you said newbies over ran it does that mean I'm a newbie? But who cares it is in the past now.

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tiresius
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 05:20
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Quote: "The custom Pathfinding code I wrote for my RTS WIP had hours of thought and work put into it.. I literally had to read pages and essays before I got A*, Attractors and Repelors to play nicely.. however I can't show you a 'screenshot' of all that hard work."


This falls under the common sense thing. Obviously a pathfinding engine contains a lot of work that doesn't equal a great screenshot, but then again it wouldn't hurt to see some of your demo screens from where you're testing it (even if it's lines and triangles). Now think if your post did NOT include a screenshot and had this type of entry:

Yeah I made this cool pathfinding thing and it's going to be the bomb! Right now it's only 2D on a specific 5x5 tile map but pretty soon it will handle bridges in 3D within a limitless world here is what is done:

50% design
10% code
5% media


Get the point? I'm sure your post was not like that... just saying these posts are what annoys us and wastes our time.

And for people who say "Why can't we just let these loser posts die and fall to the bottom?". Well the answer is a lot of people can't. They wait to flame anybody lacking in content and more and more flames push it to the top and then I end up reading it. Most of the time I end up reading the post several times.

Once for the first time post where I say "pfft, not ready yet".

Again after a few replies when I say "well maybe he added some more stuff?"

And then a third time when I'm thinking "when will someone lock this bonfire?"

It wastes my time. I'd rather have someone nip these posts in the bud than have the posts waste my time.

I'm not a real programmer but I play one with DBPro!
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malcom2073
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 05:24
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*gets popcorn* lol.

I have a couple different games in progress, hell I even have a demo of one. I don't post it, why? Because I don't think its ready to be posted.

If someone wants to show off their program, let them. If it truly dosent qualify as a "work in progress" it will fall off the first page quickly. Is your time that precious that you just HAVE to whine about someone posting something which dosent contain screenshots or a demo as wasting your time?
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tha_rami
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 06:11
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Why can't people understand that in this not-so-perfect world, those posts do NOT drop. For the following reasons:

1. "H3y, d1d any0n3 r34d th1s p0st 1 w0rk3d r34lly h4rd 0n 1t pl3as3 c0mm3nt!!!"
2. We flame. We all flame. If it's the 20th of that type of post in a week, we get frustrated and we flame. Hell, even the newbs flame. I'm a newb!
3. Friendly assistance. We point them at their errors.

Posts like Sergio's keep at the top until they get locked. We're friendly, we try to help. Others flame to help. Good flaming, actually IS helping. I reasoned that in a post in Game Theory.

So, once more: THEY - DO - NOT - DROP. Understand? Else you might wake up to some oranges and find a horse-head in your bed.


Little Bright Dots
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Mr Bigger
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 07:23
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The good ones rise to the top and have frequent progress reports...
sticky those and the rest go to the wolves.
If a stickied w.i.p. shows too little for too long it gets unstickied and goes back to the wolves.
I can see a dozen or so wips by people known to produce that should be stickied now.I don't need to name them as most know who they are.

I think it's fine now but i don't have a wip and i don't see the complaints.1 or 2 pages of stickies might make more people happy and not be too much extra work.

AMD 2600+/1GB DDR ram/GeForce 6600oc 256MB/W2KPro/DBPro 6.2
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Alquerian
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 07:46
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Quote: "2. We flame. We all flame."

I'm not a flamer

Visit the Wip!
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MikeS
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 20:51
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I don't think anything is going to be changed. Maybe I should've phrased my statements a bit more carefully on the whole "something must be done" thing. Just know, that hopefully there'll be a little more awareness on the issue. Nothing really is broken, I'm just a bit frustrated when I see posts rise to the top, and all they contain is flames. It's not time to ruin it for everyone yet though, but I didn't want to wait until it was broken to do anything about it.

Lets just go ahead and let this one sink to the bottom.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:24
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Quote: "Lets just go ahead and let this one sink to the bottom."


You could just lock it and speed up the process.
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Scraggle
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:28
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And to prove Green Gandalf has a point ... I've raised it to the top again

You see the trouble? People can't help posting in threads that others want to sink of the first page. The only way to guarantee that a post drops off the first page is to lock it.

... and to keep the nit-pickers happy - Yes, you could delete it instead but then you would be asking for a dozen people to post a thread called 'What happened to the thread about such-and-such'.



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tha_rami
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:30
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Hehe, actually I wanted to post what Scraggle said, but hey. He's totally right.


Little Bright Dots
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