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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Bump Mapping: Crying for help

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rolfy
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 04:39 Edited at: 25th Oct 2007 04:54
Quote: "From what I see it does nothing that adding to the texture map could do"

It adds a great deal to the appearance of the texture,I dont know how you would achieve this by adding to the texture map alone.
However I do think that a good texture would get by without using normal maps,personally I would prefer not to use shaders on everything as it will decrease the framerate a lot.
As cheese cake says the stock normal maps do not add a great deal to the appearance,this is due to the normal maps being created from the texture images,if you create your normal maps from actual geometry rather than a simple 2d image conversion you are likely to get far better results.
Quote: "because when you move around they dont change"

This would almost certainly require dynamic lighting.
Quote: "but looking at Rolfys images, the floor has odd black lines on it"

Those odd black lines are cracks in the texture,as I said in that post this texture is intended as a column detail so those cracks are grossly exaggerated in scale,I just used that particular texture cos' it was the first one I found that had detail I felt would work
That texture was also a 2d conversion using the nvidia filter for photoshop,I still think geometry created normal maps are the best way to go.
@inspire,I am just guessing at the reason it works for some and not others,I frankly dont have a clue why not.

rolfy
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 05:45 Edited at: 25th Oct 2007 06:17
Just out of interest here are some comparisons.
The floors do not have normal maps applied so you can see the difference.


Single static light,dynamic lighting off.


Single dynamic light,dynamic lighting on.


One static light and one dynamic light,dynamic lighting on.


One static light and one dynamic light,dynamic lighting turned off.

fallen one
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 06:48 Edited at: 25th Oct 2007 06:51
Single dynamic light,dynamic lighting on.
this looks best by far
infact it looks like its working how id expect, ie it actually works.

Could do with those examples being put online so people can see them working, in fact Gc should host them, put them in the tutorials section with the videos.

Quote: "That texture was also a 2d conversion using the nvidia filter for photoshop"


That tool is very bad, infact it sucks, use crazy bump, its very fine indeed, free as well.
http://www.crazybump.com/

Quote: "if you create your normal maps from actual geometry rather than a simple 2d image conversion you are likely to get far better results."


Thats something Im interested in, I even spoted a free zbrush/mudbox type tool recently, Ill have to find it and get a thread on it as fpsc users would like a program like that.

I am wondering how much depth on say bricks one can get with a normal made from a high poly mesh, then with dynamic lights in the game, just how much quality one can get, how much depth can the wall get.

What happens with 2 dynamic lights, dynamic lights on, do they mess up?

fpsc game KILL TV update 16 Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
Slayer222
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 07:36
How do you draw normal maps then? What program do you guys use?

EOT
[img][/img]
Check it out here: http://eliteops.piczo.com/?cr=6&rfm=y
fallen one
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Posted: 25th Oct 2007 10:04
Get an image editor, make a grey scale heightmap, as in the lighter its colour the higher it is raised, the darker then the lower it is raised on the surface.

Then use crazy bump to make the normal map from the black and white heightmap (its full colour, don't convert it to B+W, its B+W in colour only).

You can make them from the diffuse tex, (the regular texture) just de saturate them and then tweak them a bit in your paint program.

fpsc game KILL TV update 16 Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 05:03
Ok

Whilst it's been nice to see a bunch of people generate some interest around FPSC normal mapping and providing a few nice looking segments on there. This hasn't really advanced what we're able to do with normal mapping in there since previous attempts such as my 'experiments with FPSC normal mapping...' thread.

It's good that someone has taken the time to provide some information about additional texture map generation and how to setup the segment .fps file etc with examples but we're still left with the fundamental problem that only segment walls are rendered correctly with the bump.fx shader.

As you'll see from Rolfy's screenshots when rendering a segment room with additional texture maps e.g. normal / specular and static lights, the walls look great but the floors have this kind of screwed up normal map effect without it actually being applied to the texture properly.

Attached is a screenshot showing Rolfy's segment room with shaders on and static lights. Notice that the floor does not have the same effect as the walls despite using exactly the same textures and shader.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 05:08
Now here's another screenshot using the same room segment but with no shader applied to the floor texture.

Thats basically the best look you can achieve at the moment as the previous screenshot shows the screwed up normal map look on the floor does more harm than good.

Until we have a shader than can be used to generate the same quality effect on the floor (and ideally ceiling) in addition to the walls, fully normal mapped environments won't be achievable due to an inconsistent level of quality throughout the level.

Maybe one day the E.L.E team will share their custom bump shader or TGC will update / add to the stock FPSC ones. Either way spending a whole bunch of time creating all the extra texture media for segments at the moment isn't going to pay off all that much.

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fallen one
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 06:31
This is what I said, the floor doesnt do normal maps, thats what I thought from Rolfys images.
You would think E.L.E team would share the shader, its not like fpsc users will all be rushing out commercial games and spoil their gig.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
rolfy
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 10:40 Edited at: 26th Oct 2007 11:20
I did notice that the floor appeared to have problems,I didn't pay it much attention tho' as I had removed the shader from this to get a contrast to show the normals on the wall.
For some reason FPSC seems to light the floor brighter than walls when shaders are turned on.
There doesn't appear to be any obvious way of solving this,but it doesn't look too bad in game if the right textures are used.
Below I have used the same texture for walls and floor.

Shaders off,static light.


Shaders on,static light.

The guy leaning against the wall is a take on Ertlov from 'Anderson' he!

I guess it's six of one and half a dozen of the other,I wouldn't use shaders myself.

I dont really feel the need for shaders on floors unless you were using a fairly ornate texture or something like a metal grid.

Quote: "You would think E.L.E team would share the shader"

Some how I very much doubt it.

Storm 6000
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 12:55
odd how the floor isnt visable with noshaders but is when there on :s

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Adam
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 13:14
Have you got fog turned on? I noticed my game was doing that until I turned it off.
rolfy
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 13:19
No fog,just a short range light.

Storm 6000
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 13:50
its also odd the first wall looks almost cartoonish but the second looks so real wow, the guy doesn;t look any different arnt shaders sposed to affect people to?

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Adam
Cheese Cake
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 15:46
yeah but you have to apply a normal map and specular to the guy first....or any other entity.


And i think rolfy didnt applied a normal map to the guy.


Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


Sloan
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 17:28
What is this E.L.E. game? Anyone have a link? I would like to see just how well the shaders work for this game.
Storm 6000
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 18:04
search in showcase

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Adam
Sloan
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 19:15
Thanks, after watching the vids and looking at the screen shots, the floor doesn't look that different from rolfy's example pic above.
rolfy
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 23:01 Edited at: 26th Oct 2007 23:13
Quote: "And i think rolfy didnt applied a normal map to the guy."


Heres one with normal mapped character.


Cheese Cake
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 00:36
Whow

That is one sick looking model!

May i ask what it is?
Since the face is covered because of the lighting.



Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


prophet ciccio
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 13:42
Hy guys I'm new and sorry for my english

I read an message of nomad soul,and in this particular

Basically TGC needs to update the existing bump .fx shader files or add new ones which work better with segments. Otherwise keep pestering the E.L.E team to give you their bump shader which seems to work ok."date 8th Oct 2007 17:18"

If my translation good and I have a question

How can I contact ele team for the bump.fx shared???

and

IS good work with the bump for this version of the FPSC, or better than no?
prophet ciccio
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 13:46 Edited at: 14th Nov 2007 16:06
please help me where I can contact ele team for the bump

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