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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [STICKY] U77 Public Release Candidate

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Wyldhunt
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Posted: 14th Mar 2012 03:00
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I hadn't seen that.
I do know that any program compiled with 7.61 will not run on my computer. At least, they wouldn't at the time that U77RC3 was released. If that is an update that happened after U77RC3 release, then the issue may be fixed.
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Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 14th Mar 2012 12:26 Edited at: 14th Mar 2012 12:36
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Quite possibly. I vaguely recall that the issue was fixed in one of the U77 RC versions. I don't have W7 so I'm not in a position to test this myself.

Edit I think we are at cross purposes here. I see you've already mentioned that the W7 security issue was fixed in RC3. I'm about 95% sure that U761 was intended to fix the same issue. Could be wrong though. I'm not aware of a later version of U76 than that. Are you sure you installed the correct U76 version?
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Santman
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Posted: 14th Mar 2012 21:10
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I'll confirm, after testing on multiple computers, anything with 7.61 WILL NOT work on Win 7 SP1. Only the newest beta fixes this, but beware as amoung other things it turns off the shadow shader so hardware shadows cease to work.

The thread to follow for the update is here: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=193289&b=1
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 15th Mar 2012 00:17
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Thanks. Looks like I've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line.

Wonder where I got that idea from?
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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 07:24
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can we kill the thought of upgrades.....call dbpro finished and have you guys work on a new darkbasic dx10/11 compatible? If you guys keep upgrading dbpro how are you suppose to make money? Id pay for a new version of Darkbasic that used dx10/11 as this is now the new standard and dbpro is getting to far behind to even bother with updates anymore isnt it? It runs fine the way it is..... Id say start on a new Project to replace Dbpro...and no agk is not a replacement.... Id like to see some dx10/11 commands

(just my thoughts)

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James H
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 08:34
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I hope they dont kill off the upgrades, not so sure Id be willing to pay for a new version knowing the old version will never get its fixes, I dont think it runs fine as it is, mostly yes, for your needs perhaps but maybe not for everyones, besides their time is taken with making money elsewhere, not just making upgrades. Reasonably sure inhouse x10 product is available through svn. AppGameKit isnt a replacement its for deploying on other platforms, from what I just read its aimed at mobile devices or at least machines much less powerfull than a pc - and I could be wrong but looks like making it 3d would mean it losing some of its crossplatform capability, based on a breif read of the thread stickied on this board
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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 03:02 Edited at: 27th Mar 2012 03:03
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ya but think of this.... its like as if i was asking for more updates for darkbasic classic.... Its outdated and they should move on to the next replacement for dbpro that uses todays technologies.

What your asking would be simular to saying can we have updates for xbox even though xbox 360 is out and almost about to be replaced again.

I know that most people would pay for a new release of darkbasic using direct x10+

Id pay it without thinking twice about it.

again my thoughts...but you have yours as well...



edit: or.. they should start charging for upgrades to make it worth there while

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James H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 11:44
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well if the following links are good then you have it for free - havent checked - Im sticking with x9 till I learnt it, hence why I wanna see fixes
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=166204&b=33
http://www.thegamecreators.com/pages/newsletters/newsletter_issue_85.html
outdated? the particular niche market that is-or at least was the game creators prime target is pretty old school from what Ive seen. What your likening this to is no different than me saying 2d platforms are outdated, lets get rid of any future support and tie it off as it is. I think they should tie it off; when the majority of us can agree that the product is working well enough to not need future updates, perhaps where they are already aiming? Generally 1 update breaks something somewhere else so we could end up going around in circles for a long time. But plugins get produced or other functionality comes to fruition and the product does need upgrading to cater for some of them from time to time, noones gonna just drop dbpx9 any time soon I dont think so I can see updates coming out in the future if only to deal with an additional product thought up by one of the niche members. I really dont think charging for updates would even come close to working 1)it probably wont actually free up their time, to increase the team I would GUESS they need some sort of guarantee of additional income to pay for it 2) there isnt a cat in hells chance I would pay for it and I really cant see too many people doing so either. When they first looked at releasing x10, first mentioned at the 1st official convention to my knowledge, they stated they didnt know if they would charge for it as x9 to x10 could be veiwed as an upgrade but they werent sure. If those links work out for you then they have already made that decision. I honestly beleive they will continue to proceed as they have done, making money on other products in keeping with the times
xbox? lol I hear they make excellent door stops..
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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 12:07
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Quote: "noones gonna just drop dbpx9 any time soon"

Not to rain on ya parade, but direct X 9 will more than likely go the way of the dodo when WindowsXP and WindowsVista goes that way in 2014.

One thing that everyone has 'overlooked' is what happens when everything goes 64-bit? All PC's these days are sold with 64bit OS's yes I know netbooks are still sold with 32bit ones but to be honest that is changing at the moment as well.

If everything turns 64bit then you can be sure 32bit software will go the way that 16bit windows apps have 'retired to obscure emulations' and seeing as DBPro and DBClassic are 32bit isnt it about time they looked at 64bit options?

-EdzUp
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James H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 12:22
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I agree to a degree EdzUp, but dbp users generally arent forerunners in technology, sure theres a lot that do try to keep with the times but I would say theres a large portion that are just hobbiests focusing on older style games. Ive heard it too many times that x9 will be out the window but I still know a lot of users with xp machines, in fact the only people I know with 64 bit OS are laptop owners or pc gamers - I can count on both hands how many that is, but mine is a miniscule section of society so I shouldnt generalise to these numbers. Still it does raise a good point on 64 bit issues, but can a system even be truly 64 bit? idk, just an argument between geeks I witnessed the other week. But I suspect for years to come x86 compatability will be in future OS`s surely? It can take a long time to phase out software and hardware
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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 12:31
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TBH it didnt take that long to phase out MS-DOS and Windows 3.11? why should it take so long to phase out 32bit. If there is a easy route then people will take it for example on 64bit os's there is a compatibility program that allows it to run 32bit how long before this is 'phased out'?

-EdzUp
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James H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 12:43
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Quote: "why should it take so long to phase out 32bit"

there are a lot more people in the world that depend on it than there was was back then, also technologies weigh in on all our lives far more now than back then quite significantly
Quote: "If there is a easy route then people will take it for example on 64bit os's there is a compatibility program that allows it to run 32bit how long before this is 'phased out'?"

idk, as long as it takes I guess - I know x64 bit OS`s have 32 bit(x86 folder in program files) software compatability - I was suggesting future OS`s in the pipeline
buisnesses will always take an easy route too, like not spending money unless they have to so I would expect them to depend on it also for much longer
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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 12:50
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I do agree, but unfortunately these days its not about 'compatibility' more about control and money, companies will be forced to update in the end no matter what they wanted to keep.

Yeah there will always be the diehards out there that will stick with XP/Vista just like there are people still using AmigaOS but in the end they will be niche and unsupported. Big companies will be forced to update or be left behind.

-EdzUp
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James H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:10
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Yeap the nature of time and change now it would be nice to get a road map of that lol, though small companies probably wont be as easy to force into new comps an OS`s - I see quite a few win98 machines out there beleive it or not as Im agency and tend to work in small companies, but at some point the inevitable will take place even for them. Until we here something from TGC or maybe even the mods I will continue as is, they have a much better picture of how the future looks than the likes of me, it would be nice to get the fixes for dbp that people have mentioned and draw a line under it and support will get dropped at some point I imagine, source is available on svn to I think so that takes it one step closer if it is. But all this for now is on the horizon, by 2014 I hope to know a lot more about hlsl x9, if they do look at x10 in the future then Im sure they will look at x11 at some point and address the x64 issue prior to it becoming an issue, theyve always been good like that. Its what keeps them afloat knowing there buisness so well.
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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:17
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Another worrying trend is the next OS's Windows8 and OSX Mountain Lion have the ability to use 'the cloud', Microsoft/Google and Apple to name a few have cloud apps out there how long before we have dumb terminals that connect to the server and use stuff from there. Like Onlive but for everyday tasks, to stop everyone using windows like we do now all they would have to do is lock the OS down and remove the installers a bit like Apple done with iOS.

-EdzUp
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James H
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:29
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Well I dont know much about all that but its heading off topic for this thread, but some good points raised as food for thought have been made
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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:32
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yeah to keep on track there is a requirement for a 64-bit version

-EdzUp
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Irradic
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:44
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32 Bit will phase out sooner or later, but we can just guess how long this will take.
I surely would like to see a new DB product which takes advantage of current technology. But I have a feeling that DBPro is the end of the line. If I look back to 2004, a lot has changed in the last 8 years. Blitz3D, 3D Gamestudio and Torque come to mind, if I think about competitors during that time. These all ranged between 70-200$, I can't recall any, free to use, or develop now pay royalty later license models (except for open source engines of course).

Today we have Unity3D, UDK and the Cry3 SDK, which have either free versions or are free to use until the release of your product.
How much of a chance would a new DB product have ?
Would the development time and cost be worth it ?

I love DBPro, but I honestly gave up hope on the development of a new DB product.

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EdzUp
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 13:50
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I do agree UDK is $99 and 25% royalties (OVER $50000), Unity is free unless you make over $100000 but has a nag screen (Unity logo), Cry3 is the same roughly as UDK. With this in mind the next DB product will have to be kick ass and 100% stable to compete with the likes of Epic, Crytek etc.

-EdzUp
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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 03:07 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 07:03
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Not to get off on the wrong foot with this...i love dbpro too but pc's get outdated at an excelerating rate each day.... i do believe 32 bit will get dropped off soon enough and quicker then 16bit getting dropped off.

Exactly what EdZup says... they will do it and its all about making money cause it will only support 64 bit applications.

edit: I would think at least 90% of dbpro owners would buy a new dbpro dx11 or something for 100 bucks easy without thinking twice about it as long as it supports the newest windows graphics capabilities with dx.



Anyways....im leaving my money out waiting to see if tgc bites at it



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James H
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 03:56 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 04:06
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idk what the timeline will be, could happen tommorrow for all I know, but yes it will happen, TGC will do what they chose to with dbp. Until some form of anouncement is made I aint gonna be too concerned, dbp being a basic language isnt really in direct competition with sdks as being easy to use is its main goal surely?
90% - thats a proven fact is it? I seem to have missed that poll! Just jesting, I suspect the figure is quite high but I dont want dbp fixes to stop as I for one dont have the money to fork out on a new graphics card to help with the performance hit from x10/11 or the money for a new dbp, if I had any money i would have dark occlusions and dark imposters first. idk how many existing users would be in same boat as me so I wont speculate. Did you check the x10 links? any good?

Edit nvm about the newsletter link it had no further links, but you can download the x10 modders kit which the first link states has x10 variant of dbp in it from the fpscx10 home page
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2127
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Wyldhunt
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 04:18 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 04:19
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@James H
I agree with most of what you just said. I'd love to be part of that 90% that would purchase a shiney new DX11 DBP, but $100 would be a bit much for me. I'd be willing to guess that 90% of the current customers would like to buy DX11 DBP if they could afford it and it had all of the old DX9 DBP plugins available... So, the real number would probably be less.

The point I don't agree with is the cost of upgrading to DX11 GPU's.
I'm not sure if you've checked lately, but nearly every board on the market is DX11 now. Even the $20USD cards.
IE:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=149617&CatId=3585
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1131693&CatId=7005
Or, you can get a standard average DX11 gamers card that can handle todays AAA games for about $130USD, which is about the same cost that they've always been for the old DX9 models.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1742651&CatId=3669

The move to DX11 and 64bit is happening now. In a few years, everyone will be assumed to have DX11 and 64bit.

As for the DBP upgrade, I think they will need it if they want to keep DBP as their flagship software. I also think it'd be a huge investment that would also require re-writting a lot of plugins/extensions before most people would buy it... And even then, it'd need to be cheap. $99 buys a commercial license for AAA game engines these days (As long as your profit on the game is less than $50,000)
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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 07:14
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yeah.....sigh

I just wish i could see something knew completely. DBP is what ...over 10 years old now? if not im sure its close...and should be ready for retirement like db classics state.

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James H
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 07:31
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blech I just took a quick look at dbp x10, no examples with it, only fpscx10 itself, Im pretty sure lee said everything had to be done differently just to get a visible object, not sure what though :o if anyone has any ideas Im all ears, my best guess is we might have to use the 3d math stuff to pass to the shader which I aint got a clue on, hence why I wanna learn x9 first
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JackDawson
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 15:46 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 15:47
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Quote: "@James H
I agree with most of what you just said. I'd love to be part of that 90% that would purchase a shiney new DX11 DBP, but $100 would be a bit much for me."


Its funny that this whole conversation has been what I spoke about a couple months ago and I was challenged even then. But looks like this conversation is saying the same thing I did. People ARE moving forward to DX11 / 64Bit and newer computers. Its not that expensive to upgrade your computer now days. On top of that if DBP ever did go DX11 / 64Bit with TGC behind it, I actually would pay another 100 $ for it if they put in that it is not going to get dropped support. I would also want OpenGL support. That's my issue with TGC, is the lack of support. Non-Upgrades.. or Promised upgrades.. then... nothing. Seeing one DLL FIX is not an upgrade, but more a patch.

I mean lets get real here guys. 32Bit will get phased out. Your games that you are currently making with DBP.. think about it. Your not going to make money at it for too much longer. So it will be just a hobby at that point.

Reminds me of when I am writing an Operating System. And I have to return back to Assembly language and some of the OLD OLD OLD tools from way back in the 90s. 16 Bit BABY ! But do you think I'm going to make money at this ? HELLLLL NO ! I did it more for the experience and to learn it.

So those who say 32 Bit is here to stay.. uhmm.. yea... It will be here. But there will be no money in it. Welcome to DBP, your future Hobby Game Creation IDE / Compiler.

Not trying to attack anyone here. I am trying to wake this conversation up to the facts, that a lot of us are aware of.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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Dar13
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 16:58
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TGC could take a lot of the legwork out of making a new language/compiler by migrating the rendering engine to OGRE. OGRE is getting a DX11 RenderSystem, has OpenGL/GLES support, and legacy DX9.0c support as well as Cg/GLSL/HLSL shaders(write-once run anywhere shader code). However, the language would have to change in order to cater to its fundamentally different approach to resource/object management.

JackDawson, I agree with you that DBPro needs a rewrite, and soon, but a condescending tone will not persuade anyone to your point of view.

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=PRoF=
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 18:45 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 18:47
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I was going to start this post by saying how I can quite happily code away using DBP without any issues at all on my Windows 7 64 bit PC.

But then I remembered Windows 8 is being worked on currently, so I had a quick google to see if Windows 8 has DirectX 9 support, and guess what... I saw at least 3 articles saying that it did indeed have DirectX 9 support.

I haven't actually tried yet under Win8 but I'm guessing that at least core DBP stuff will work, even if some plugins don't at first.

So yeah, I'm quite happy coding away using DBP for at least the next few years

>Edit<
Saying that, I am looking forward to the next incarnation of DBP; whether it is DBP 2 (With DX1x or whatever) or something else completely different.


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James H
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 20:01
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Quote: "I mean lets get real here guys. 32Bit will get phased out. Your games that you are currently making with DBP.. think about it. Your not going to make money at it for too much longer. So it will be just a hobby at that point."

Quote: "So those who say 32 Bit is here to stay.. uhmm.. yea... It will be here. But there will be no money in it. Welcome to DBP, your future Hobby Game Creation IDE / Compiler."

noone said anything about 32 bit being here to stay we were looking at the time frame. I was suggesting that dx9 wont get support dropped for quite some time in as much as its availability and also pondered the likelyhood of future OS`s having 32bit compatability much in the same way as vista and win7
DBP has always been exactly that - for the hobbiest - for the vast majority of users exceptions being professionals who use it as a tool and on a small number of occasions some have made some money from it. Ironically dbp has seen more upgrades updates and patches(I care not for the indifferences as they all pertain to TGC providing support) than any of their products.. and they arent obliged to produce them.
What does surprise me though is the number of posts about requests for x10 support in dbp from the past to date yet none show any code, I have downloaded the modders kit and it compiles fine and definatley works differently as I expected, I will try some fpscx10 shaders with it later as I have to reinstall it. I know this has been available for a long long time yet I dont see a single post anywhere detailing any findings or requests or code????? Now if as many users wanted it as suggested I would expect a lot more posts about it, wouldnt you? Hence why Im surpised.
@WyldHunt sadly I dont have the pennies even for the cheap ones, though I cant help wonder how useful they would be with the performance hit coupled with no cooling fans whatsoever, if I had the money for a decent card and the product was available I probably wouldnt think twice about buying it, but with no light at the end of the tunnel in the current economy, well nuff said, though I would still want the x9 variant for a long time to come if possible
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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 20:10 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 20:15
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hey all

I know DBP is like getting on in age
but with the latest addition being created
there is still a lot of life left in it

I recently bought

Asus (G74SX-1ATY) Intel i7-2630M (2.2GHz) 17.3"

http://www.cbithardwaredeals.com/Asus-G74SX-1ATY-Intel-i7-2630M-22GHz-173_p_25241.html


Description
• Intel Quad Core i7-2630QM (2.0GHz) WITH 4 simulated cpu's
• 8GB DDR3 Memory
• 1.5TB Hard Drive
• DVD +/- RW DL Burner
• Card Reader
• 17.3” HD LED Backlight Display
• Nvidia GeForce GTX560M 2GB Graphic
• 802.11 b/g/n Wireless Lan
• 10/100/1000 Mbps Lan
• Webcam / Bluetooth 3.0 / HDMI
• Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
• MFG Recertified with 90 Days Warranty (Extended 1 year Warranty)


it's windows 7 home premium

I have it so it's almost windows xp looking more like windows 98se

I do not like the look / feel of windows 7
nothing much I can do about since ms is scum and did not
think of the user

the only thing I have had a bug to deal with is

I have to rebuild the exe for some of the high end example
other wise it says the settings are wrong and at this point
I do not know how to reeducate the dumb thing

and from what i have seen directx 10 / 11 do not rile make much of difference

I've got DBP 7.61 running on it fine

I could spend the extra $139.00 and move upgrade windows 2 more levels

but for my needs it dose the trick

I've only got one game that dose not work it but every other
game I have works on it fine

all I want is DBP To work ;o)

I know there was addition for DBP 7.7RC7 That is not in DBP 7.61
"a timer function"

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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Santman
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 23:26
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IU'm not going to get into the pro's and con's of this discussion as EVERYONE has missed two huge points - and that's consoles. PC games have been held back AT LEAST TWO YEARS to keep in line with concoles, even teh likes of Battlefield 3 (come on - who ACTUALLY saw any major difference!!). Now, given that the biggest games, i.e. the ones that would use DX11, take 3-4 years and millions of dollars to make, and PC games are still incredibly heavily pirated, that is only possible as the development cost and time, i.e. graphics, sound and level design/production are split accross all the platforms. So, when the new Xbox and Playstation come out, IF THEY support DX11 then you'll see a huge move toward it. If not, then you really won't, I assure you. And case in point, the new Wii is the equivolent of DX9 I believe.

The second big point, if you check out Lee's "top 3 annoying bug posts" he started that after another thread I was chatting on was going on about similar, and he joined and openly said that DBPro IS THEIR FLAGSHIP PRODUCT, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE. He said that the whole team were dedicated to AppGameKit for a good while, however now that was up and running things would change, and this next official update was to "keep us happy in the mean time". Read into that what you want, however he was quite clear DBPro is NOT being forgotten or dropped.

End of. Ahem.
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Dar13
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 03:44
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I don't understand what you're trying to say, Santman. Are you saying that PC graphic technology advancements(and their subsequent adoption in game development) is dependent on the consoles?

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 04:51
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one other thing I thought people should think about

directx 9 is still a major part of any 3d games made

so no matter how high the direct x go's unless they do a complete
rewrite it will always been there and needed

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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JackDawson
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 08:44 Edited at: 29th Mar 2012 08:49
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Have any of you guys actually touched Windows 8 ? I have.. Its not what some of you might be thinking it is. If you thought Vista is bad.. wait until you get a load of Win8. Hope you have a touch screen. Its not user friendly if you do not have one.

Dar13 "JackDawson, I agree with you that DBPro needs a rewrite, and soon, but a condescending tone will not persuade anyone to your point of view."

I meant no disrespect to anyone. Sadly I have a hard time expressing myself in a manner that people accept. So I have to just blurt it out there the only way I know how and in hopes that the ones who need this info will actually look it up as I have. I do a lot of research on this subject because I have too. I'm just not good at explaining it, that's my problem.

The one guy above who said consoles and PC games look identical.. uhmmmm I strongly disagree with that. I have played with the XBox 360 ( Newest Slim Edition with Kennects ) ( Wife has one ), the PC and the PS3 ( Brother in law has this ). Hands down.. with even my current ATI video card with 1 gig ram on the card, and 8 gigs of system ram, my PC still beat the consoles by a long shot. Plus the shader capacity of the PC video cards now days is amazing. Try Crysis 2 on both, and make sure your running windows 64-Bit so that you can run the FULL directX 11 HD texture packs and such. Compare that with the consoles. You'll see the PC will win if your video card is strong enough to support it. ( NOTE : The HD pack for the DirectX 11 REQUIRES you to have a 64 Bit OS. So those who do not have a 64Bit OS, your missing out on the newer graphics. )

DirectX 11 vs XNA 4.0 for windows / 360 is an interesting subject. OpenGL is up there with the 4.2 version. However, in my personal experience, Direct3D with DirectX 11 would win the argument in efficiency and speeds. However, its not programmer friendly. OpenGL and XNA beats DirectX on that one. And OpenGL = Cross compatible and simple functions calls to the API. ( The only draw back is its version number. You have to know which OpenGL functions your going to use for your target audience. ) XNA is not compatible with anything except Microsoft's products.

XNA is mainly used for gaming with the C# language as its native language. Meaning... lag lag lag. I have already tested this myself so I can say that with confidence. And for those who didn't know.. XNA is used in the XBOX 360. Interesting note though is that the consoles do not have all the overhead that windows has, so it can almost keep up with the PC. But its video card is NOT upgradable and so the PC would win hands down in the PC vs Console wars debate. Remember, the GPU is what we are all referring too here. DirectX, OpenGL, XNA.. its all about the GPU. Which brings us back to DBP. DirectX 9. Won't be around forever just like DirectX 7, which DBP used to use, has no support by MS any longer. And it does not come with windows anymore unless you actively search for DirectX 7 drivers. DX9 will be the same way.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 09:33
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@JackDawson

I was wondering about windows 8

I know windows 7 sucks dirt

it seams the only good windows ms built were
3.1 and maybe 3.11
98se
2000
xp more or less

all the rest are garbage

as for the rewrite of DBP humm
are bugs but that happens with all programs
it can't be helped unfortunately

and as far as problems it all comes down if you have not guessed it
by now ... windows . badly made from the get go

hardware is ware the other problem . again bugs that creep in
or in the case of amd and ati they do not know what they are doing

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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JackDawson
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 15:17 Edited at: 29th Mar 2012 15:22
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I actually like Windows 7 the best out of all the windows. Don't get me wrong, XP before Win 7 came out was the best. But if you know how to setup your windows 7 correctly, you will never have a glitch. Not one. The only reason people have trouble with it, is because they forget about the Administrator installations. Which, may seem like a bad move.. but.. that administrator has saved my butt many many times. So I am grateful to have it. And with the idea of Built in Anti-Virus, I never have to pay for an anti-Virus ever again. ( Known as Windows Defender. NO I am not talking about Windows Live with Security Essentials. THAT DOES SUCK ! The Essentials is nothing more then a HUGE way for Microsoft to snoop on ya. Read the Terms of Service for it. You'll be shocked. So get rid of MS Essentials. But keep Windows Defender. Its separate and doesn't require Essentials. )

With Windows 7 using 64Bit, I have never once had a windows crash or the Blue Screen of Death. And if a game crashes, the cool part is, it will not effect the rest of windows. MS finally did it right this time. Separating all the programs into their own memory slot. So if there is a program crash, you simply close it, and then restart the program.. No big deal there. XP has its usage. But for the NEWER games, they are now requiring 64-Bit. At least the high end games I have been playing need it if you want all the "eye candy" in the game to work. So XP won't cut it for me there. Windows 7 was my only choice in this.

As for Windows 8. Yea its a touch screen Operating System. You can use your Mouse. BUT you'll soon realize its not meant for it.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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James H
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 16:41
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I can confirm that i did get dbpx10 working with the fpscx10 wibblyrelief.fx on a cube and it didnt require any special effort
havent looked at what commands do and dont work and obviously plugins will probably not work, I will look at them and see what happens at some point soon and edit this post, back to x9 shaders for me in the meantime
sorry for going off topic..again
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JackDawson
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 20:23 Edited at: 29th Mar 2012 20:50
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This is the reason I am pushing for DBP to be OpenGL. This is WHY DBP is going to be phased out if they do not upgrade to DirectX 11 or OpenGL in general. The cool part about Outerra Engine is you do not need a powerful computer to run this. I am an actual BETA tester and full supporter behind this project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L3ZUQUGvxQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeoT_cz2nC0

The Outerra Engine is just an example of our future in games and OpenGL / DirectX.

For those unaware, Outerra 3D game engine is the newest game engine being designed and worked on. It allows FULL universes to be created and you can go anywhere in the universe. You can land on ANY planet. And all this can even run on your one lone computer. Its still being worked on, so its not officially public engine yet. But there are a lot of youtube examples of it. The one I posted here just happens to be one of my favorites.

How I found out about this project from the Author himself who wrote the book "3D Engine Design for Virtual Globes" - Patrick Cozzi and Kevin Ring.

http://www.virtualglobebook.com



EDIT UPDATE : I was wrong when I said that C# is nothing but lag lag lag earlier in my earlier post. Let me explain. I was only testing up to 3.5 of C#. I been testing version 4 today and I have to admit, that its not the same slow speeds anymore. They heavily optimized it. So I have to retract what I said about C#. Its just as stable as the C++ CLR version is now. ( Both C++ CLR and C# 4.x share the same framework so there is no difference in speed between the two now. )

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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Santman
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 20:50
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Ok, first up Jack - Defender ISN'T a virus checker, it's anti malware (subtle but distinct difference there). And AVG is free. I can't count how many times an actual virus has turned defender off and AVG saved my neck! Lol. Also, I'm not sure what "beta" version of Win 8 you used, but it can be turned back to a standard desktop like any other windows version if the user so wishes, I believe (unless it's like aero and you need a higher version to do that - I saw one that certainly could be swapped between the two). Check your control panel??

And Dar13, not not quite. I got emailed the other day from nVidia for the launch of the new GTX680 - 1'520 shader pipelines and 1.5GB ram as standard. Wow. Awesome. Power BEYOND MY DREAMS. Of course, BF3 runs maxed in DX10 on my GTX260 at 30+ FPS, and ME3/COD 3 gets a constant 60. It has 230 shader piplines and 640 meg. Have any of you checked out the unreal demo on youtube showing what PC's are TRUELY capable of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXyztq_0uM ?? But the chances of a game to this quality ever being made? At the moment, nil. Because ONLY THE HIGHEST OF HIGH END PC'S COULD TOUCH IT (this demo was on THREE GeForce 480's - that's still two of the cards I mentioned before) and sales would be around...oohhhh....5000! No, games are constrained by consoles because of the cost and time commitment to develope them, and that means most media has to jump quickly and cheaply across platforms. Take Skyrim as the perfect example. It launched with some of the worst modern graphics/textures possible in places and a cell based world loading system, but Bethesda recently released an HD add-on...the difference is minimal. A free mod removes all loading when going from cities and the world - you just walk up, the door opens, and life continues. Another extends the details and visibility as far as the eye can see - Bethesda themselves have said these limitations were due to memory constraints etc of the consoles over the average PC, and there in lies my point. A game aimed soley at my GTX 260 and 8Ghz quad core would strip bones off a PS3 or XBox game...but it would cost almost as much to make from scratch as the consoles counterpart but NOT share the sales. Graphics would need re-done, models designed twice, shaders recoded, engines and code wouldn't port so easily due to Dx10/11 over the consoles DX9 (and I don't mean i fixed .exe, I mean a dedicated DX11 engine), whole new principles would need to be re-worked. It has happened - Shogun 2 on the PC is MILES above either consoles abilites and for adring to do it the company deserves every award they win - it truely is BEAUTIFUL. Gears of war for the XBox, Uncharted 3 for the PS3 - neither would port cheaply or easily to the other side as they are dedicated to crunching every ounce out of their respective consoles - that's a team of hundreds of people squeezing a PS3, instead of trying to ensure cross platform comptability with two concoles and COUNTLESS PC configurations. The reverse is also true - GTA4 on the PC is so badly coded, my PC struggles just to match the PS3 graphics when it should soar above it, and the only advancements are a higher screen res and some shader effects that *appear* to enhance details - no actual significant texture reworking here. The similar files sizes show that - I would expect the PC version to be several Gig larger, but no.

So no, consoles are not limiting the development of PC hardware - they limit the use of new hardware due to cost, which in turn limits the market for new hardware (I used to buy a new card every 6 months - my current one is 2+ years old as I've never needed to upgrade!), which keeps the cost of new hardware high, which reduces sales, which reduces the production of new technology. That's why CUDA saved nVidia to a degree I reckon - I couldn't picture video recoding without it now!! Check nVidia's website - everything from facial recognition in camera's to military hardware now uses CUDA for calculation enhancement, so I argue the new cards are little to do with games as this acceleration is largely down to....the number and speed of shader pipelines the CUDA engine can use. And that is why I think, unless the next generation of consoles COMPLETELY abandon DX9 over DX11 or it's equivolent (and I'll bet anything the next XBox won't at least), it won't simply disappear. The swap to 64Bit, however, I see as a far more likely scenario if for no other reason than 32Bit limits you to 3.9 Gig of memory (or there abouts) at slower access rates.

And as a final note, I have both a 360 and PS3 - the PS3 has nVidia graphics hardware, the 360 ATi. The old Wii had ATi hardware too. Go figure.
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JackDawson
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Posted: 30th Mar 2012 05:40 Edited at: 30th Mar 2012 05:50
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@ Santman :
Quote: "Ok, first up Jack - Defender ISN'T a virus checker, it's anti malware (subtle but distinct difference there). And AVG is free. I can't count how many times an actual virus has turned defender off and AVG saved my neck! Lol. Also, I'm not sure what "beta" version of Win 8 you used, but it can be turned back to a standard desktop like any other windows version if the user so wishes, I believe (unless it's like aero and you need a higher version to do that - I saw one that certainly could be swapped between the two). Check your control panel??"


My wording was of poor choice. You are correct. Its Anti-Malware. However look up the definition of Mal-Ware. It acts like a back door which allows the hackers in and then they can send viruses to your computer. And if you know how to setup your browser to use ad blockers as well as never going to a porn site, then your pretty much safe from viruses from the net. Either way, its still a defense. Even if you download the software, the Windows defender picks it up. AVG actually shuts off windows defender. It doesn't just shut itself off because even AVG says it will will turn off windows defender when you go to install it. Try it. So, my choice of wording is wrong and I apologize for that, however it is better in my opinion because it prevents the Trojan / Virus to enter into your computer BEFORE it gets to your files. Where as an Anti-Virus has to check if its already there. The problem is, you cannot run both.

As for Windows 8, there was no option to change it when I tested it. It looked like a giant phone interface. If your searching on youtube to see videos of it as a normal windows interface, that has already been proven false ( As of two months ago ). Try it out yourself. Anyone can test the BETA of Windows 8. Its not what people think and there was no option to change it at the time I tested it two months ago. If they added that option, that would be a LOT better for the success of it though.

As for needing to spend 5K on a computer. No need for that any longer. Newegg is your friend. I built my computer and I only spent 1K total.. and that includes the 27" HD Widescreen LED Backlit monitor with 2ms response time, my CPU is the 2nd generation i5-2500K at 3.3 gighertz per 4 cores. 8 Gigs OCZ DDR3 ram and the video card is the AMD Hawk Edition of the R6870. ( Not the regular 6870 ). And this card is equal to the NVidia GTX 560. I play Crysis 2 Maxed out on DirectX 11 True HD and I get NO lag whatsoever. I have tested this card out with other games as well, FULL maxed out settings and so far I have not reached the full potential in any game except Crysis 2. However, the newer games that I have been looking at that are coming out ( Example : new alien game which is like Crysis 2 ), are taking FULL advantage of the newest features of OpenGL 4.2+ as well as DirectX 11 HD as well as 11.1. So computers are not that expensive anymore and anyone can play games in FULL non lag HD. And whats sad is.. my computer is considered old in the gaming industry. Go figure. lol

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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MikeR 28601
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 04:47
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As i remember it... the older windows versions before xp (not counting windows nt which was not a consumer os) were not true multitaskers so doing something else while a background task executed wasnt possible.
Windows XP changed this (And finally let microsoft catch up to what the Amiga OS was capable of for a long time on the mutitasking front). XP was a great new OS from microsoft for the standard computers at the time. When Vista came out it ran really bad on the mainstream computers but those with multicore and lots of ram had alot better experience.
In my experience Vista and 7 run much better when multitasking on multicores than XP. Another issue comes in with 4gig of ram or more. XP64 was so unstable and unsupported that it was pointless to use over the 32bit for how most people used the computer.
So in my opinion if you have a multicore cpu and over 4gigs of ram Windows 7 64bit is by far the best OS out yet by Microsoft.
As far as DBPro goes... I would love to see more updates and am willing to support TGC by continuing to purchase things i find useful and cool.
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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 05:42
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well after getting a free add on for windows 7
it sucks less dirt , it works and so far only one game will not work
some sound card problem but it was also happening in windows xp


http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/

this addition gives me back the gui I know and like
the windows 7 gui suck crap and very dumb

I also payed for Outerra Engine

with "BlitzTerrain" being updated it will son be able to
do what the program dose

and with all the other free/pay items being built
more options are coming

all I can say is DBP is not down and out
there is still a lot of punch coming

look at what was dun with dos games even windows 98se games
they had a lot and is very possible to do the same with DBP

I've got the drivers for directx 9/10/11 installed
so far I only have one game that dose not want to work
and tiny crashes of the intel over clocking program

"Intel(R) Turbo Boost Technology Monitor 2.0"
which emulates 4 cpu's with the 4 - 2 ghz cpu built in

DBP just needs a tiny bit more and it's on the same level
with any game creation software out there

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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JackDawson
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 17:03
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The Classic look is built into Windows 7 dude. You didn't have to install anything. Turn Aero off and then change your theme. It has it in the list. Two of my friends like the old theme as well. And this is what they did too. They didn't need to install anything.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 17:15
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the look maybe but the way I navigate around that was lost

missing "Quick Launch" - thats now in place
the menu system to load files the way I like
that in place

all that left is control panel - still buggered up look
I made a box that has all my short cuts for making games
but that still loading like it's windows explorer

I can live with windows 7 now for the most part

with the latest up date if I am ever forced to move to windows 8/9/49
I know there will be a fix to bring it back to the correct way

you can dress a pig in fancy cloths but it's still a pig

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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JackDawson
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 18:21 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2012 18:51
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I too have quick launch just like I did in XP. its been there bro.. Windows 7 HAS it all built in.. you just have to know how.

I changed my control panel to the old style look of XP as well as everything else you described is here. So not sure why you keep saying its not built in when it obviously is.

EDIT UPDATE : Picture of my windows turned into Classic XP look. You can also change the colors of the bars to look IDENTICAL to XP SP2+ which has the blue bars at the top.

Here is the picture.
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_pic.php?i=2333194

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."

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JackDawson
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 18:40 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2012 23:45
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Just so your aware. I do not like the old school look.. so this is what my normal Windows 7 Interface looks like. and again.. nothing extra installed to get this look.

My windows 7 Look :
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_pic.php?i=2333197

I uploaded two posts with one picture in each so you can see them. Just click the VIEWs at the right.

Also, Outerra is totally MORE advanced then blitzterrain. BlitzTerrain is strictly for generating terrain. I bought the plugin and I have been very disappointed with it. Although lately he is trying to fix it. Outerra is a whole universe and you can land on any planet. Its NOT a plugin. Its a 3D Engine. WAY different. Also, Outerra has built in Physics as well. BT has no such thing.

EDIT UPDATE : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9HVEnA36ro

This is a video of what I was playing around with. I forgot about all this stuff. lol

Thanks Resourceful.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 6th Apr 2012 04:29
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we use what we like ;o)

I like the way win98se was so now that I got most of it
that's what I will stick with

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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JackDawson
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Posted: 7th Apr 2012 01:41
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Indeed my friend. Indeed.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 15th Apr 2012 01:07 Edited at: 15th Apr 2012 01:08
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Something interesting to note about open gl graphics.... anyone that owns AppGameKit now....as i do will note that a screen invalid graphics memory dump does not occure as it does with using direct x 9.0c

you can ctrl+alt+del to your hearts content with agk and the memory graphics do not need to be reloaded in each time..... or the open gl engine does this for you automaticaly.

I agree with jackdawson that its time for a dbpro engine running open gl support! As for the end user it would mean less work to keep our game engines stable.....with dx 9.0c you realy hafta pay attention to when your memory gets dumped or expect a program crash

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 15th Apr 2012 01:30
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as long as the programmer keeps tracks of whats needed for what
then dumping stuff that is not needed would keep a program from crashing

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
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Brendy boy
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Posted: 15th Apr 2012 02:20
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Quote: " or the open gl engine does this for you automaticaly"

this

BBB GUI Plugin
Landscape & Map Creator
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