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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPS Creator X10 Technology Demo!!!

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Steve J
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Joined: 22nd Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posted: 13th Mar 2007 01:11
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Or they could just write it into db x10, these are features many of the db users have wanted in the past few years=/

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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puppet
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 21:56
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how will these new bells and whistles affect the frame rate? personally I'd rather see a framrate better than 33 max or at least stay at or near 33 when you have more badguys and geometry than chugging to a halt at 10 or 12 or less. This stuff looks great but its gotta take a hit on the engine. ALos I'd like to see the badguys less stupid. why do they all have their guns unloaded so the first thing they do when they see me is take the time to put in a clip? Better AI and framerate is what I'd vebture to buy FPSx10 and another lame Mcrosoft operating system. So many of my current apps will not work on Vista and I don't feel like dropping more $ to get photoshop, Maya and a host of others that I use to create entities *( as well as other work).

I mean it really does look sweet though
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Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 26th Mar 2007 08:47
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puppet, technically speaking DirectX10 should allow much quicker frame-rates. That is only down to two major factors right now:
1) Improved Draw Call System. As DirectX10 performs less draw calls and processes more information at one time, something that only unified shader core cards (Radeon X-Series, X1K-Series, and GeForce 8-Series support).
2) Possibly the more important aspect, the GeForce 8-Series is almost twice as powerful as it's predecessor cards.

Given the GeForce 8 is currently the only card DirectX10-Compliant, and I'm going to go out on a limb and hazzard a guess that this version is taking advantage of the DirectX10 Shader Model 4.0 only enhancements despite there not actually being anything in there, which Shader 2.0/3.0 can't handle. Would no doubt be the only card you'll be able to use so.. yeah much quicker.

This said unless the engine core was redesigned to a timer-based model rather than vsync-based model, you're still looking at an FPS cap of around 30fps. (atleast it'll be more stable though.. plus side?)

Something I still would like to know though is, why there is so much buzz being pushed about the graphical features that honestly are currently being used in Xbox360 titles which uses DirectX9.0c; and doesn't even push the consoles graphics processing capabilities (X1600 XT equivilant performance) even close to it's limit.

IF they did have some of the DirectX10-Only features, then this would make so much sense; but quite frankly there is nothing shown that can not be done in DirectX9.0c and I feel it is extremely mis-leading to say that what is going on is only possible with the performance of DirectX10, when clearly it isn't.

Alright, so there is one feature that in the DirectX SDK is only available as a DirectX10 project (Soft-Particles); but the effect is actually quite easy to achieve using either a 2-pass Shader 2.0, or even better 1-pass Shader 3.0. It wasn't DirectX9 that lacked the performance or capabilities for this, but DarkBasic Professional's engine itself.

In-fact most of the time the engine is fairly decent, but DarkBasic Professional itself would cause performance limitations and bottlenecks. As has been demonstrated by the performance difference between DBP and DarkGDK.

It's one thing to expand the truth in order to make a product sound better, but it is another to note something that isn't true.
Might not be done intentionally, however would be nice if things were worded differently as to cover you're own ass' under false advertisment.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 10:10 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 10:19
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Quote: "I feel it is extremely mis-leading to say that what is going on is only possible with the performance of DirectX10, when clearly it isn't."


Firstly I don't think anyones saying that, Rick said it was possible in DX10, I'm sure we're under no illusions that DX10 is doing that much that can't be done already. The important thing is how these amazing graphics won't impact performance as much, that's all I need.
I want shaders and cool water effects and volumetric particles, and I'd rather not use extra cameras, I have a thing about reducing my frame rate to 1/4th just for fresnel water. See these things are possible, but they cost too much in 9.0c to be that useful.

Quote: "Personally I think the whole idea of a "script language" to be totally pointless for a product like this, and providing more of a click'n'drop logic system would be easier."


I'm sure most users here would disagree. Scripting is the only way FPSC could hope to incorporate their media properly, a drag and drop system would take that away from them, unless 3D artists all work to an exacting standard that I've never heard of. Your always gonna need to scale, set animation loops, sounds, gun properties. I'd actually like to see more work done in the scripting so more possibilities can be discovered by the users.

Quote: "You know I still wouldn't mind providing some input toward FPSCreator, run over some ideas that I personally reckon would make it a more solid product. The engine doesn't need to be tip-top, just the implimentation. New features are nice, but hopefully it's not just a cosmetic upgrade."


No offense Raven but why would TGC listen to you?
Your nothing but negative towards most of TGC's products, and have absolutely no grasp of FPSC or it's users, what they want, or how they want to do it!.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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FredP
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 10:26
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Quote: "Personally I think the whole idea of a "script language" to be totally pointless for a product like this"


The scripting language is far from pointless.
I do agree with Van B.It would be nice to see TGC add more to the ability to script (more commands,for starters).
Individual timers and other things I won't get into here because they have been posted elsewhere would be good.
Hopefully TGC can implement more scripting options into both versions of FPSC.
While drag and drop is the way to build a level in FPSC scripting most definitely is the heart and soul of what makes FPSC function.
Without the scripting language you have nothing but a bunch of media looking pretty.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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Doggy
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Posted: 26th Mar 2007 14:38 Edited at: 26th Mar 2007 14:49
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*Noticed a similiar post, deleted mine*
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Zdrok
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Joined: 19th Dec 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: 27th Mar 2007 00:32
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Why can't all this X10 stuff be put in v105 update? A lot of people don't have 900 dollars, so why bother? We FPSC XP users NEED--emphasis on the word need--NEED all this x10 stuff in the XP version. We don't have gold buried under the lawn, you know.

Just put all the X10 stuff into v105, make it free, because all the other updates are and we'll leave TGC alone.

Rant over.

Infantry Division: Lost in Power
A game set during a war against Europian mercenaries
Arriving 2007
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Deathead
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 22:08
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Quote: "Just put all the X10 stuff into v105, make it free, because all the other updates are and we'll leave TGC alone.

Rant over.
"

Microsoft wouldn't be making the dough.

PLS JOIN I really do
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Jeremiah
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Posted: 27th Mar 2007 23:51
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Remember everyone, we need to make sure that bill gates can afford another solid gold humvee.
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FredP
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 00:59
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Knock it off guys and keep it on topic.
If you had read what Lee has been posting you would already know that they are implementing stuff in this version of FPSC as they implement it into x10.
Some things just won't be possible or practical for this version of FPSC.
You will have to accept that and live with it.
I am sure that Lee and the others working on this at TGC will do the best they can.

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Komet
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 01:05
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What is the point in making valid comments if mods or TGC staff come along and keep deleting posts that express opinions that they don't like?
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FredP
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 01:20
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Your comments were not valid and had nothing to do with this thread.
What Microsoft or Bill Gates or anyone else does is beside the point.
This is about FPSC x10...not Microsoft or anything else.
Please confine yourself to the topic at hand.
Some people take these threads seriously.
On another note it is up to the mods or TGC staff to edit or remove posts or threads at their discretion.
So please keep your posts on topic.
If you want to blow off some steam about Microsoft or Bill Gates you can go to Geek Culture to do that.Heck,they probably have a thread or two already statred around there about it.

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Nomad Soul
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Mar 2007 03:01
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All of this X10 stuff is all well and good

I don't agree with the idea of not implementing X10 features into FPSC due to someone deciding that the performance hit is too great for running under directx 9.0c. This is because some people will have low end spec XP configurations and some will have high spec XP configurations which will have a better of chance of handling it. If the feature can be implemented into X9 without involving taking all TGC's available resources to do it then it should be. Which given that X9 and X10 are based on the same source code, I can't see why it would do.

It's going to be a while before people can use new features in X10 let alone X9 so the important thing is that TGC just let us know the score rather than just showcasing that it is available in X10.

Lee has made 2 updates to FPSC X9 recently which is good and mention of Dark AI, Dark Physics and ragdoll physics further down the road is encouraging. However new FPSC features are always going to be speculated upon unless TGC are prepared to give more details than a screenshot and a 'this is available in X10' comment.

Lee has said that he is not going to be considering any feature updates to X9 for a little while if he can help it as the next immediate revisions of X9 will be focused on bug fixes to make it stable. Therefore I would think twice about delaying a project in preperation for those kind of updates.
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Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 28th Mar 2007 07:20
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Quote: "Firstly I don't think anyones saying that, Rick said it was possible in DX10, I'm sure we're under no illusions that DX10 is doing that much that can't be done already. The important thing is how these amazing graphics won't impact performance as much, that's all I need."


Lee has said that "Soft-Particles" and "Soft-Shadows" are not possible in DirectX9, in both this new video and the FPSCX10 NVIDIA video. In both instances this made me chringe because quite simply both are MORE than possible in DirectX9.
Rick has echoed the statements that Lee first made.

Quote: "I want shaders and cool water effects and volumetric particles, and I'd rather not use extra cameras, I have a thing about reducing my frame rate to 1/4th just for fresnel water. See these things are possible, but they cost too much in 9.0c to be that useful."


Is this comming from when Lee showed off all the shaders running on his original DirectX9 version at the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 launch event, compared to the new video on a GeForce 8800 (which btw is standardly 2-3x better performaning that the GeForce 7800 because of the architecture change to basically what the Radeon X1K-Series has) running Vista with DirectX10?

Because honestly, that is down to poor engine performance.
Not down to what is happening in the scene or what is being run.. DBP's engine is quite consistantly slow performaning.

The only reason DirectX10 right now performs much better is simply because of the design. It does aspects behind the scenes that quite frankly, developers should've been doing almost 3years ago when DirectX9.0c hit the scene.

These enhancements in performance shouldn't be used to go "hey here's some graphics that most current games can do, but we've just caught up for your pleasure", but it should be used to expand what is possible on current hardware.

Quote: "The scripting language is far from pointless.
I do agree with Van B.It would be nice to see TGC add more to the ability to script (more commands,for starters).
Individual timers and other things I won't get into here because they have been posted elsewhere would be good.
Hopefully TGC can implement more scripting options into both versions of FPSC.
While drag and drop is the way to build a level in FPSC scripting most definitely is the heart and soul of what makes FPSC function.
Without the scripting language you have nothing but a bunch of media looking pretty."


Alright, tell you what.. both you and Van.
I have my ideas for what FPSCreator *should* be like for it's target audience.

Rather than complaining, or such I'll spend some time away from the forums; and basically put my money where my mouth is.
As this was made in DarkBASIC Professional, that's the tool I'll use and I'll not make any third-party (i.e. make my own) enhancements. Just use the bog standard version (Update 1.06.6), and make what I feel FPSCreator should've been like.

If after I'm done, you guys can use it and see if my points are still as invalid as you believe.

Don't get me wrong about when I'm making complaints about TGC products. This isn't just to have a go, cause I want to see them release the best products they can.. it's just so painful to see them constantly making the same mistakes.
Almost as if they never play games themselves and realise what people want to do.

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FredP
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 09:29
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There are some things that either due to hardware restraints or engine restraints are not either possible or realistic to use with this version of FPSC.
Sure,you might be able to implement them...but if the engine doesn't work properly or you get a framerate of 1 FPS what good does that do you?
I mean Lee just made the engine and he's the lead programmer but I am soooooooooo sure you know more about it than him.
Quote: "Rather than complaining, or such I'll spend some time away from the forums; and basically put my money where my mouth is.
"


I can harly wait...
And since you decided to quote me (even though I am right and you know it since the scripting is what makes FPSC work) and draw me into your latest conspiracy theory...
There are FPSC users who are waiting for newer version of the source code so they can make their own mods for FPSC so we really don't need your Riker 9.
Funny how TGC doesn't bother checking with you before they do things...

Quote: "Don't get me wrong about when I'm making complaints about TGC products. This isn't just to have a go"

Seems that way to me.Every time you show up to post somewhere it's the same olsd flipping story.
But that's okay by me.I am sure that all of the FPSC users who don't get to read your posts on a regular basis will be entertained by it.
If you had read Lee's posts on the subject of this version of FPSC (and I will repeat this yet again) he is implementing features into this version as he puts them into x10.
So if he can put it into this version and make it work it will probably be in there.

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Van B
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Posted: 28th Mar 2007 09:43
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Quote: "Is this comming from when Lee showed off all the shaders running on his original DirectX9 version at the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 launch event, compared to the new video on a GeForce 8800 (which btw is standardly 2-3x better performaning that the GeForce 7800 because of the architecture change to basically what the Radeon X1K-Series has) running Vista with DirectX10?"


No, this is coming from my experience with shaders in DX9, there's just no comparison to how DX10 handles shaders and how DX9 does. Problem is that if TGC set that water and those particles as standard, we'd have dozens of complaints about how slow FPSC gets with water and particles. You can't please everyone, half this forum wants v1.05 to be upgraded rather than DX10, half this forum wants x10 features added to v1.05. I've been messing around with water shaders and terrain shaders in DBPro, and extra cameras kill performance totally, so seeing these added to FPSC as it is just seems like a stupid thing for TGC to consider in DX9.

Quote: "If after I'm done, you guys can use it and see if my points are still as invalid as you believe."


What slows DBPro down more than anything is AI, as a language itself I think it struggles with doing too much - it's not like DBPro couldn't show the media at a good frame rate, it's the extra stuff like scripting and AI that bring the frame rate down, handling too many objects, stuff like that. If you load up a FPSC DBO level in DBPro you get blistering frame rates. FPSCx10 is not being written in DBPro, so I'm not sure what your test would proove. There's things that I would add to FPSC as it is, like ragdoll deaths, better particles... stuff that's already being addressed in X10.
We've seen quite a few FPS games in DBPro, but none of the ones with shaders all over the place and fresnel water seem to get finished, it's almost like they get all the pretties in place then it slows down to a crawl once they add in collision detection and AI, if they even get that far. If your engine is running at 50fps with all your level media in place, water, stuff like that - then really you should be concerned about it.
My current tests run at 400-500fps without water shaders, with water shaders I get about 100-150fps. If DX10 allows me amazing looking water like we're seeing from FPSCx10, then that means I can expect what, about 350fps? - then consider level geometry and enemy instancing, and X10 just makes more and more sense. My next project is destined for Vista and x10, simply because it's the best option for me with what I want to achieve, it's just not doable right now. I can completely see the logic in what TGC are planning, that's why I'm so damn adamant about this stuff, there's too many ill-educated opinions festering away right now (I don't mean you), if these people went through the same processes and experiences as anyone writing an ambitious game in DBPro, well things would be very different IMO.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Slayer222
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Posted: 29th Mar 2007 00:25
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I have a few questions, this may not be the right thread but can you turn ragdolls off pick up dead guys with ragdoll and/or gib people. (what happens if a dead body ends up between an auto door?)
Slayer_2
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Spudling
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Posted: 1st Apr 2007 01:14
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Im in luck im 89.99% sure i can have DX10 with my 512MB Gfx Card

Well was bought as a 256mb but put it in and some more memory now Saise 512 and will run 512mb GFX games.

Well Battle field 2 @ full wack i guess needs 512.

So i will get VISTA with laptop so i install on pc maybe and then install DX10 :p

Then BUY THE FPSC DX10 :p

Was Hi! but Hi! Was gettin a little iritating
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Person99
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 01:30
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I can just port it with Wine (I use kubuntu for everything I can. Wine is a windows emulator, and I think it supports DirectX 10.)

Windows Vista SUCKS, there is no way I am going to buy it... So I'll just use linux.

Death is only the end of the physical realm, eternity in the astral plains awaits you. But people are ugly there, and there are not very many multiplayer video games. So stick with earth for a while.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 03:28
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Quote: "I can just port it with Wine (I use kubuntu for everything I can. Wine is a windows emulator, and I think it supports DirectX 10.)"

Yes.. of course it does..

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
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Nicholas Primiano
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Posted: 6th Apr 2007 21:39
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Does anyone know of a price and/or date of X10. I think that I heard it was that it was supposed to be resealed this month. I also heard thst the price should be in he same range as the first FPSC.
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