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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Novodex (PhysX) coming to DBPro

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walaber
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 08:03
Quote: "Ageia also announced at GDC integration of their SDK into DarkBASIC Professional, a popular game development tool targeted at non-programmers."


http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060322/diamante_01.shtml

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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RickV
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 09:21
Looks like the cat's out of the bag now! More details soon, we expect a release date in May.

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BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 10:50
SilentS, I think your previous link should be removed. The last I heard was that Physics can be discussed, but the brand name mustn\'t be mentioned. It could potentially cause grief for TGC and delay the release again.

Quote: "Earlier versions of the PhysX SDK were available for download of Ageia\'s website, and the technology will be free of charge for developers to use"


No technology tax on the developers - nice!

Quote: "Ageia also announced at GDC integration of their SDK into DarkBASIC Professional, a popular game development tool targeted at non-programmers."


I think that\'s badly worded. \"targeted at hobbyist and non-professional games programmers\" perhaps.

RickV
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 10:58
Here's the official press release:

The Game Creators Integrate AGEIA PhysX Technology into DarkBASIC Professional

MOUNTAIN VIEW and SAN JOSE, Calif. – March 22, 2006 - AGEIA™ Technologies, Inc., the pioneer in hardware-accelerated physics for games, today announced that The Game Creators have integrated AGEIA PhysX™ technology into DarkBASIC Professional, the advanced version of their game development tool that allows even non-programmers to create their own games.

DarkBASIC Professional offers the same ease-of-use of DarkBASIC, but also includes advanced features such as lower-level control, a broader range of data types, and a more advanced 3D engine. With the integration of AGEIA PhysX technology into DarkBASIC Professional, developers can easily add dynamic physics-based action to their games. PC gamers whose gaming rigs are equipped with the AGEIA PhysX processor will experience this physics action with heightened intensity and real-time interactivity.

The AGEIA PhysX processor is available in game PCs from Dell, Alienware and Falcon Northwest starting today, and on add-in boards from ASUS and BFG technologies starting in May 2006.

DarkPHYSICS upgrade to DarkBASIC Professional with AGEIA PhysX technology will be available May 15th 2006 priced at just $59.99.

"Our customers have been asking for integrated physics in DarkBASIC, and AGEIA PhysX technology is simply the best available. DarkBASIC Professional users will have access to all the great features offered by AGEIA PhysX, from tumbling rigid bodies to dynamically flowing fluids. We’ve made the process of programming these complex features a cinch!" said Richard Vanner, development manager at The Game Creators. "In the same way that DarkBASIC Professional leverages the latest visual effects of today’s graphics cards, AGEIA PhysX technology gives developers access to the powerful physics capabilities of the AGEIA PhysX processor."

"With AGEIA PhysX technology integrated into DarkBASIC Professional, there’s never been an easier way to add exciting physics action to your games," said Kathy Schoback, vice president of content acquisition at AGEIA. "With the hardware acceleration of the AGEIA PhysX processor, DarkBASIC Professional users can deliver physics-enhanced game action that’s superior to even the most expensive software-only physics solutions."

About The Game Creators
The Game Creators are dedicated 100% to delivering you the best range of affordable and cutting-edge game development tools. The products we've been building for over 8 years, and the companies we partnered with, all have one specific aim - to enable you to create whatever game you want on your PC.

More importantly the process of creating your games should be fun, easy and not too heavy on the wallet. The products you need should not break the bank and there will be no more slaving all night over a hot keyboard just to get a simple 3D object onto the screen. With our products you can achieve impressive end results within a fraction of the development time and cost of other languages.

About AGEIA
AGEIA™ Technologies, Inc., is the pioneer of hardware-accelerated physics for PC games and has developed the world’s first dedicated physics processor, the AGEIA PhysX processor. The AGEIA PhysX processor powers massive and pervasive real-time interactive worlds that for the first time obey the laws of classical physics. AGEIA provides a world-class cross platform software development kit to simplify advanced physics programming for the PhysX processor, as well next-generation gaming consoles. AGEIA is changing the face of gaming by working with more than sixty leading developers and publishers to deliver the next generation of physically immersive entertainment. The company, headquartered in Mountain View, Calif., is privately-held. For more information visit http://www.ageia.com.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:01
Quote: "In the demos we saw, the CPU and SLI GeForce cards are actually the bottleneck; the PhysX is barely used, said Manju. "

This is talking about the hardware component.

Hmmm... it had me until that sentence. Interesting application of $299 for the hardware.

I do very much like the dynamic fluids. Cutting edge stuff. I'm just curious about the comparative loads on the CPU and GPU using this thing. If the speed increase is nominal, then it's sure not worth that much money. Perhaps its application was poor or incomplete in the demos.

Whatever the case, the software looks very nice. I suspect I'll be purchasing it.

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:09
And new hardware too, I presume, as well...

I can see it being of limited use until a physics processor is in all machines...

Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:11
Quote: "I can see it being of limited use until a physics processor is in all machines..."


Why? We've been developing it for months and none of us have any PhysX hardware yet. If it only worked with a PhysX chip we probably wouldn't have even bothered looking at it, but it doesn't, it is just aided (massively) by one.

Bite my shiny metal ass
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:13
So it works with & without then ? The press release makes it appear that a PPU is needed...

Phaelax
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:21
Quote: "So it works with & without then ? The press release makes it appear that a PPU is needed..."


my thoughts were the same.


BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:23 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 11:28
There's a diagram somewhere that shows an application working in both software and hardware mode, depending on what's available. It's only like DirectX games working in either mode.

In fact, there are XBOX 360 games that use PhysX software without the hardware.

Scilynt
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 12:31
Sorry about the link.

Even though the page has now been removed, perhaps TGC might want to be more careful as to what is live on the site.

Anyway, I wish TGC good luck in regards to the success of the product.
Van B
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 13:49
It's cheaper than I expected, about half what I expected in fact - looking forward to this.


Van-B

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Philip
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 13:50
I hope all that hard work that Mike put into Meqon wasn't wasted!

I've informally heard from someone at TGC that the AGEIA deal means that we can buy the physics plugin and use it in games without needing to pay royalties. I'm wondering if this is confirmed?!

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Lukas W
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 14:14
will there be a "super game creators pack 2006" including the content of 2005 version, 3dgw, physx library, darkvoice etc. etc.?

HowDo
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 14:20
Is there pre-order button.

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Scraggle
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 14:29
Quote: "DarkBASIC Professional, a popular game development tool targeted at non-programmers."


Non-programmers?


roswell
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 16:27 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 16:30
Quote: "Non-programmers? "


I agree, that statement stinks. Don't go patronizing ME, TGC!

'Just one game,' they said, and started to play. That was yesterday.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 16:32
TGC didn't write it...

Essence
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:02
Could this actually put Newton Physics for DBp out of bizz?

walaber
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:07
most likely. by the way Phillip, Ageia bought Meqon!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:19
It does seem odd to have 2 different physics systems (or will do) when they are released, unless Meqon has been dropped...

Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:27
Quote: "So it works with & without then ? The press release makes it appear that a PPU is needed..."


That's because Ageia wrote the press release, and they want to pimp their hardware as hard as possible I guess. But you don't *need* a PPU. Mike has been building this for months without one.

Quote: "will there be a "super game creators pack 2006"


Yes there will.

Quote: "It does seem odd to have 2 different physics systems (or will do) when they are released, unless Meqon has been dropped..."


Meqon were bought out by Ageia, which meant our contract with them went up in smoke. Hence the shift to Ageia technology and the need to re-write the entire physics core from scratch. There will be no 'Meqon' pack, consider it dead, completely and utterly.

Quote: "that statement stinks. Don't go patronizing ME, TGC!"


Can we insult your inability to read instead then?

I quote: "AGEIA™ Technologies, Inc., the pioneer in hardware-accelerated physics for games, today announced "... so, who do you think wrote the press release then? Give you one hint.. it wasn't us

Cheers,

Rich

Bite my shiny metal ass
Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:28
I've said this in another thread: you don't need the chip in order to program or even play "physxed" games.
MiR
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:33 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 17:33
Quote: "Hence the shift to Ageia technology and the need to re-write the entire physics core from scratch"

I was begging to wonder what was taking so long. Does mean that it looks like DBPro will be using the market leader. Of course nothing wrong with Newton but if you want something better than Half Life 2.....

Edit. Blasted html code thing. You will work damn you!

Need path finding in your games? Click <a target="_blank" href="http://www.telefonica.net/web2/paskyprog/">here</a>
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:36
Quote: "There will be no 'Meqon' pack, consider it dead, completely and utterly."

Shame, it looked rather nifty. And the PPU query has been cleared up too.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:38
Newton surely still provides an excellent *free* alternative. This DLL won't be free (obviously), but equally it won't be priced that much different to any other plugin we've released for DBPro, so no-one will need to break open their piggy banks for it.

Pricing will be announced when the plugin is ready for sale, which we hope to be at some point in May.

Bite my shiny metal ass
Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:40
Meqon was VERY nifty! (as those demos you saw showed) but Mike has done an awesome job with PhysX and it far exceeds what Meqon was capable of, so fear not, it's all good stuff.

Personally I can't wait to relive my dream of making a basic pinball game, or a Wipeout clone (even though I know I could never do all the media, it'd still be fun)

Bite my shiny metal ass
Raven
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:47
I have a feeling people only ever half read things, cause there really should be no complaints about buying a PhysX PPU; as you don't need one to run the physics plug-in.
It's just really cool.

Quote: "It does seem odd to have 2 different physics systems (or will do) when they are released, unless Meqon has been dropped..."


I'm not sure if my NDA about this is still in effect, given information is now available; but yes Meqon was dropped because of issues with the licensing due to the takeover.

Quote: "TGC didn't write it..."

Didn't write what, the plug-in? I'm fairly sure that Mike would have a few strong words to say about that.. first probably starting with Bol and ending in Locks.

Quote: "I've informally heard from someone at TGC that the AGEIA deal means that we can buy the physics plugin and use it in games without needing to pay royalties. I'm wondering if this is confirmed?!"


From what I understand too this seems to be the deal. Probably why it's taken them so long to sort everything after Aegis bought out Meqon.

BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:48
Quote: "Mike has done an awesome job with PhysX and it far exceeds what Meqon was capable of"


Well that is scary. Having beta-tested the predecessor, I can say it was bloody good!

I just wonder how long it will take PPUs to become mainstream and affordable. $299 is quite steep to add just physics to your rig. Granted, it's a nice add-on, but still an expensive one.

DrReaper
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:51
At last years E3 they were saying the boards would be priced between $200 and $250 dollars. Add in the Darkphysics and your near $300. It better be good for that much money.
BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:53
"TGC didn't write it..." I think refers to the Press release.

Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 17:56 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 17:57
Quote: "I just wonder how long it will take PPUs to become mainstream and affordable. $299 is quite steep to add just physics to your rig. Granted, it's a nice add-on, but still an expensive one."


The good thing is that you don't need it to develop a/o play games that uses physx. So if you cannot afford the PPU, don't worry. By the time you can afford it maybe the PPU becomes a standard in the industry.

EDIT:

Quote: "At last years E3 they were saying the boards would be priced between $200 and $250 dollars. Add in the Darkphysics and your near $300. It better be good for that much money."


No, only what TGC charges for Darkphysics ...
Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 18:09
Quote: "Having beta-tested the predecessor, I can say it was bloody good!"


Yeah, but this is better The set-up and handling of vehicles is much much nicer now, and the particle effects are beautiful. Mike did a little smoke demo which you could run through and it left a gorgeous physics-accurate 'swirl' going on It's a fun product for sure.

I think it will be games that drive PPU adoption more than anything. If enough 'big' titles support it, then the hardcore gaming elite will buy one anyway, which will encourage more games to support it, which will encourage more sales, which will drive the prices down until we get to the point where PPU chips are built into graphics cards and mother boards almost as standard.

Which will be a wonderful thing imho

Bite my shiny metal ass
Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 18:45
This sounds cool, how is the performance with PhysX without the PPU compared to any other physics engine. Is it comparable... better... worse?

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walaber
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 19:12
too bad you have to use Ageia's physics library to access the nifty features of their proprietary hardware. so if it becomes mainstream, Newton and all other physics engines are screwed. prett slick idea by Ageia wouldn't you agree?

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 19:16
It's not part of any of the next-generation consoles (despite the original claims), so we've got atleast 5years before that would become any sort of threat.

JerBil
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 20:25
So what happens to ODE?

-JerBil

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 20:33
Nothing happens to ODE, it stays in and remains another free option (albeit an undocumented and unsupported one).

Bite my shiny metal ass
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 20:33 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 20:36
It's good, but flawed.
Fuel isn't in the turbines of a jet engine.
The panels are tougher than that on a jet.
The plane should have ploughed through the pile of stuff.
When the bomb hit the railing, it should have dented it or gone BOOM!
I saw the whole chassis come off and bounce off the sphere. Wouldn't that break up?
The boxes are great, just lacking weight.
EDIT:
You can't take panels off a plane engine whilst its running and not cause the turbines to desintergrate!


At least farting ferrets are better than stinky stoats.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 20:51
Erm, this has what to do with a physics processor? Surely it looks like that (albeit as inaccurate as you say) because the developers wanted it to look like that, not because a little chip made it so?

BTW people have a look at the Cellfactor video on this page: http://physx.ageia.com/footage.html

Now that is nuts!

Bite my shiny metal ass
enablerbr
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 21:03
will this also get added to DarkSDK as well?
RickV
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 22:47
For clarity:

1. DarkPHYSICS command set will cost $59.99
2. If you use the commands they WILL work on any PC (software or hardware).
3. Code your games carefully - you don't want games to be slow on software only PCs. Detect the hardware and throw out more effects.
4. We dropped Meqon (which was painful for all of us) because:
a) It was not as good as Ageia
b) We did not want you buying Meqon and then selling you Ageia later.
5. If you want to sell your games using DarkPHYSICS you must contact Ageia for a commercial use license. This license should be FREE - assuming your title shows off the hardware effects. In the contract with them there are a set of conditions that your game needs to comply with, do these and the license will be FREE (for PC).

I will seek more clarification on point 5 from Ageia once we have completed the work and they are back from GDC.

6. At present, DarkPHYSICS is not planned to be added to DarkGDK. We will get DBPro version out first and then talk to Ageia about this.

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[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]
MikeS
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 01:36
Sounds like a good deal, and something to be really excited about. From my knowledge, before people start freaking out, point 5 "If you want to sell..." is standard for many other technologies out there. Definitly something to be excited about, and seems a very fair price. Physics and lip sync are two new standards for game development these days, I'm glad to see TGC providing them to keep (us)up with the industry.



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NewDarken
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 02:22
So instead of getting a nice physics work over with U6, I have to pay for an addon?

Awwwww Man! C'mon!

Oh look, Im bleeding! and its green!

hehehehe. So the pot needed stirring!

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 04:00 Edited at: 24th Mar 2006 04:40
NewDarken - Newton is great, and free. Free physics engines are in abundant supply. DarkPhysics is simply a commercial alternative that will have TGCs support. That's definitely worth $60 to me.

That Cellfactor video was crazy. I loved it.

TGC, you guys couldn't have used Meqon if you wanted, could you?
Quote: "MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. – September 1, 2005 – AGEIA™ Technologies, Inc., the pioneer in hardware-accelerated physics for games, today announced that it has acquired Meqon Research AB, a physics development company based in Sweden."


Now, for the good stuff...
Quote: "
The most advanced simulation technology for games:
Complex rigid body object physics system
PhysX FX smart particle system
Volumetric fluid creation and simulation
Cloth and clothing authoring and playback
Advanced character control
Ray-cast vehicle dynamics "

This thing will integrate particles, cloth, fluids, and physics. Wow...
Newton is great. The only gripe I ever had about it was that I did not have adequate control over 3rd person characters. I suspect that this will solve that problem. The total integration is phenomenal. I don't have to use separate collision and physics systems to have particles and cloth, like I do now. I think that my ragdoll fantasies will come true too. Of course, it will require another rework of my game engine. Ouch...


HowDo
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 05:53
Richard Davey; if allowed any chance of being able to down load a compiled demo to see what it can do.

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RickV
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 08:59
There will be no demos until we have completed the product and have shown it to Ageia for their approval. So just be patient please!

Rick

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BatVink
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 09:54
Quote: "So instead of getting a nice physics work over with U6, I have to pay for an addon?"


You got that with 5.9 and ODE. And like CC says, you can use Newton...and Tokamak.

Cash, the Meqon beta included particles that interacted with the rest of the environment, it was very nice. You could fire particles at a cloth and they collided! Much better than the cloth & Particles pack. I imagine this is how you would get an explosion to rock everything in the scene without actually hitting it with a flying car.

Ric
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 11:40
As a physics teacher, I'm really pleased to see that 'physics' is now a major buzz word in games and games development - a lot of people have a preconception that physics is both difficult and boring. This new add on will hopefully demonstrate that physics is both easy and exciting! Good news. I just hope the new commands won't make it so easy that you don't even have to think in order to get realistic physics working.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 24th Mar 2006 12:02 Edited at: 24th Mar 2006 12:06
@Batvink -
Quote: "Cash, the Meqon beta included particles that interacted with the rest of the environment, it was very nice. You could fire particles at a cloth and they collided!"


Very nice. I'm such a geek, I'm so excited by that

Quote: "I imagine this is how you would get an explosion to rock everything in the scene without actually hitting it with a flying car."

Actually, I'd specify at least three zones from an explosion - the kill zone, the shock zone, and the aftershock zone. I'd apply damage in that manner. Then, I'd apply physics forces relative to the distance from the explosion center to the edge of the shock zone in the opposite direction of the direction of force from the collision center. I'd run one check for every object in the appropriate sectors at the appropriate distance. I'd apply the relative force to each object that met the requirements, at the relative levels.

Then, any explosion would apply the appropriate forces to everything in the scene. I'd do the check once, because while the explosion animation would grow, it would be so fast that reevaluating the range each loop would not increase the accuracy. It would just happen.

So, I believe that I would not use the particle force to apply forces to a scene, even now that it's probably possible. Unless, of course, they have pre-built explosion commands.

@Ric -
Quote: "As a physics teacher"

That explains why you're so freaking smart. Just so you know, I didn't do so well in physics in high school... A low B I think.


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